On the First Cut I Knew

[Jim Koepke]

LOML let me purchase a few extras recently.

I was in the shop when I heard the UPS truck in the driveway with the driver honking the horn. Last week when he came I said, "see you next week." Tax refund time is shopping time for me.

One of the items in today's box was a 5" Knew Concepts fret saw. Recently my coping saws both fell apart and I am a bit tired of repairing them all the time. I have other smaller fret saws. None of them come close to the Knew Concepts.

I marked out a dovetail pin board and used the KC saw to remove the waste. I have been getting better at this, but this was much better than any of my previous attempts. I was a bit surprised that there would be that much difference in use. The light weight seems to help me to stay to the line. It also seems to help having the nut flats be in a parallel plane to the blade to see where the blade is going.

It is a bit pricy, but so far after just one cut it seems to me it is worth more than all my other fret saws and coping saws together.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

That's high praise Jim. Like Kens marking gauge thread, I have yet to find a coping saw I like. Maybe one day I'll try one of these guys.

[Patrick Chase]

I love my KC fretsaw (the 5" red aluminum version with swivel clamps).

The KC coping saw is also nice, and more than stiff enough to cut easily and accurately on the push, but if I'd known how capable the fretsaw would prove to be I probably wouldn't have bought it.

[Jim Koepke]

Something I didn't know before purchasing is it can be converted for left handed use.

jtk

[Hilton Ralphs]

I love my KC fretsaw (the 5" red aluminum version with swivel clamps).

The KC coping saw is also nice, and more than stiff enough to cut easily and accurately on the push, but if I'd known how capable the fretsaw would prove to be I probably wouldn't have bought it.

You have both and based on the incredible virtue of hindsight you would of just bought the Fretsaw?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Be glad you got the 5". The larger one (I think it is 8") is tight linear, but it flexes side to side in turning cuts so badly that I rarely use it. Seems to be made for 1/4" or less balsa wood.

[Patrick Chase]

You have both and based on the incredible virtue of hindsight you would of just bought the Fretsaw?

For what I do with them, yes. I probably would have gone with something like the TFWW bowsaw in place of the coping saw.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jim

Congrats. The KC is a superior fretsaw. I also have the 5".

There is a simple technique that brings out the best in this saw - which should be familiar to those used to sawing dovetails. I wrote about this in one of my build posts ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_m46d81eff.jpg


The waste is removed with a fretsaw. I aim to saw along the top of the chisel wall. This should leave about 1-2mm above the line.


As with the saw, the fretsaw must be held as lightly as possible. Never force the cut. Let the saw do the work. A way of determining how you are doing is to watch the blade – it should hardly deflect. You should be rewarded with a fairly straight saw cut.



http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3_html_236c5ff2.jpg



Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Magnificently straight saw cuts,Derek!!

[Jim Koepke]

Magnificently straight saw cuts,Derek!!

I would not have considered it before yesterday, but the saw made a big difference for me. My cut was as straight and a little closer to the line. Now I need to build something that requires the use of my new saw.

Unfortunately greenhouse work and preparing for the trees we are about to drop is keeping me too busy to get much time in the shop.

jtk

[Bill McNiel]

I purchased the KC Fretsaw about 6 months ago based on Derick's write up and couldn't be happier. Great advice, great tool, kinda expensive.

[Chris Hachet]

LOML let me purchase a few extras recently.

I was in the shop when I heard the UPS truck in the driveway with the driver honking the horn. Last week when he came I said, "see you next week." Tax refund time is shopping time for me.

One of the items in today's box was a 5" Knew Concepts fret saw. Recently my coping saws both fell apart and I am a bit tired of repairing them all the time. I have other smaller fret saws. None of them come close to the Knew Concepts.

I marked out a dovetail pin board and used the KC saw to remove the waste. I have been getting better at this, but this was much better than any of my previous attempts. I was a bit surprised that there would be that much difference in use. The light weight seems to help me to stay to the line. It also seems to help having the nut flats be in a parallel plane to the blade to see where the blade is going.

It is a bit pricy, but so far after just one cut it seems to me it is worth more than all my other fret saws and coping saws together.

jtk


Yeah, I got the titanium fret saw, it does amazing work.

[Phil Mueller]

Jim, curious which one you got...screw tension, lever tension, or lever tension and swivel blade clamps?
Thanks!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Jim, curious which one you got...screw tension, lever tension, or lever tension and swivel blade clamps?
Thanks!

I did not know that they had different kinds.

Mine has a screw to adjust in and out a bit, then you use a lever to apply the tension. If it is too tight (or too loose) with the lever, then you flip the lever down (release tension), adjust the screw, then try the tension again.

[Prashun Patel]

That's exactly the phrase I was going to use, Mike. Coming from you, Jim, that's high praise... I would have never considered it before. But we're dangerously nearing Father's Day....

Derek, I am curious about your technique during coping. My cuts tend to come out sloping because I am fearful of the rear of the cut dropping below the chisel line, so I compensate by tilting the saw upward on the rear. This results in unnecessary paring work. Where to you stand and how do you hold the saw such that you insure a flat, straight line?

Am i supposed to stop frequently and check progress on the back? That seems inefficient.

[Phil Mueller]

Sounds like you have the one that runs around $70...lever tension. Was just curious if the swivel feature is worth the extra $30.

[Patrick Chase]

Sounds like you have the one that runs around $70...lever tension. Was just curious if the swivel feature is worth the extra $30.

Depends on what you do with the saw. For dovetailing I think the answer is unequivocally "yes", because without swivel the depth of the saw frame limits the width of the workpiece.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, curious which one you got...screw tension, lever tension, or lever tension and swivel blade clamps?
Thanks!

Lever tension with swivel blade clamps. I didn't want to kick myself for not getting the full function.

jtk

[Jerry Olexa]

Jim, you deserve it!!! ENJOY!!!

[lowell holmes]

This string just cost me $54.

[lowell holmes]

My saw came today. It is the fret saw with screw tensioning. I promptly made a test cut. WOW!!!!

I figured it would be good, but I had no idea how good. With my old Lie Nielsen dove tail saw and this Knew Concepts frame saw, I will be able to pretend I am Paul Sellers clearing the sockets out.:)

Jim, do you take the tension off of the blade after using it and the saw is hanging on the wall?

[Jim Koepke]

My saw came today. It is the fret saw with screw tensioning. I promptly made a test cut. WOW!!!!

I figured it would be good, but I had no idea how good. With my old Lie Nielsen dove tail saw and this Knew Concepts frame saw, I will be able to pretend I am Paul Sellers clearing the sockets out.:)

Jim, do you take the tension off of the blade after using it and the saw is hanging on the wall?

WOW!!!! is right!

I have thought of releasing the tension. I am not sure. Looking at the FAQs on their site doesn't seem to address this. I just sent them an email. Will share the answer when it arrives.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

The answer came back:


Hi. I have never done any tests but feel that it improves blade life if you release it.

Guess I need to head out to the shop to release some tension.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

The answer came back:

Guess I need to head out to the shop to release some tension.

I don't buy it. Those blades are made of hardened steel and can take O(80) lbs tensile load before yielding, which is much more than the friction-based plungers can apply. There is no remotely credible failure mode from leaving them tensioned.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't buy it. Those blades are made of hardened steel and can take O(80) lbs tensile load before yielding, which is much more than the friction-based plungers can apply. There is no remotely credible failure mode from leaving them tensioned.

Is there any remotely credible failure mode caused by releasing the tension?

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Is there any remotely credible failure mode caused by releasing the tension?

jtk

Nope, not unless the tension is over ~half of the ultimate tensile strength (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit) and you do it hundreds of thousands of times to a single blade :-).

[John Kananis]

Hey Jim, you wouldn't happen to have a Gramercy bow saw kit to compare (I know its a little apples to oranges)?

BTW, congrats on the new 'toy', ehem, I mean tool.

[Phil Mueller]

This thread just cost me $100. :D

Come to think of it, actually cost me quite a bit more. Figured I would buy it from LV, and lo and behold there were a few things in my shopping cart from an earlier browse. So the whole carts on its way. :eek:

[Patrick Chase]

This thread just cost me $100. :D

Come to think of it, actually cost me quite a bit more. Figured I would buy it from LV, and lo and behold there were a few things in my shopping cart from an earlier browse. So the whole carts on its way. :eek:

The Knew Concepts saws are worth every penny, and IMO not "toys" or otherwise gratuitous.

The coping saw is also a revelation - as I said earlier in the thread it's more than stiff enough to cut on the push, and that's a big improvement for me at least.

[george wilson]

Coping saws ought to cut on the pull. I say this from simply the way the frame would try bending if pushed. If pulled,the strain goes straight to the handle,and the frame is not "tempted" to bend. Just a point based on the engineering of the coping saw.

[Gene Davis]

Rotate the part and saw vertically?

[Patrick Chase]

Coping saws ought to cut on the pull. I say this from simply the way the frame would try bending if pushed. If pulled,the strain goes straight to the handle,and the frame is not "tempted" to bend. Just a point based on the engineering of the coping saw.

Yes, but my point was that the Knew Concept saw in particular can be tensioned to the point where such bending is a nonissue. Ditto for a bowsaw like the Gramercy (I don't have that one, but I do have the 400 mm one from Highland).

EDIT: Clarifying a bit, coping saw frames are preloaded in bending by the blade tension. Like any preloaded spring, they can't deflect any further until you apply a force that exceeds the preload. With most coping saw frames the blade tension is less than the maximum cutting force, and that means that the frame will bend as George describes if you try to cut on the push. With the KC (and apparently with some older frames as well - there are sources from c. 1900 that recommend setting coping saws up to cut on the push) you can set the blade tension high enough to prevent the frame from bending. The same is true of bowsaws.

[Pat Barry]

One of these Knew saws sells for $99. A Craftsman coping saw is $9.49 at Sears. According to their description it pretty much does the same thing as the Knew saw "the Craftsman 6-in. Coping Saw Made with a thin, hardened steel blade, 6" Coping Saw is designed to cut intricate shapes and interior cutouts in woodworking and carpentry. This handheld tool is often used to cut moldings to create coped joints instead of miter joints. The heavy-duty steel frame and hardwood handle boasts a rugged, durable design and delivers a 6" depth of cut, as well as a 360-degree adjustable blade to cut in any direction. Made with a 20-point fine-cut blade, the Craftsman 6-in. Coping Saw delivers clean and precise cuts in a variety of woodworking projects."

Is the Knew saw really worth the extra $ or is this just a cheaper example of something like the $4222 Bridge City Smoother?

[Mel Fulks]

Seems those who are willing to pay for KC saws like them, but they wouldn't have to be much to be far superior to other
modern saws. The old mostly German made coping -jewelors saws are often on ebay, are cheap ,and springy strong. And
they don't look like toys.

[Patrick Chase]

One of these Knew saws sells for $99. A Craftsman coping saw is $9.49 at Sears. According to their description it pretty much does the same thing as the Knew saw "the Craftsman 6-in. Coping Saw Made with a thin, hardened steel blade, 6" Coping Saw is designed to cut intricate shapes and interior cutouts in woodworking and carpentry. This handheld tool is often used to cut moldings to create coped joints instead of miter joints. The heavy-duty steel frame and hardwood handle boasts a rugged, durable design and delivers a 6" depth of cut, as well as a 360-degree adjustable blade to cut in any direction. Made with a 20-point fine-cut blade, the Craftsman 6-in. Coping Saw delivers clean and precise cuts in a variety of woodworking projects."

Is the Knew saw really worth the extra $ or is this just a cheaper example of something like the $4222 Bridge City Smoother?

IMO there's real benefit from the aluminum ones, and I don't see any design features that strike me as gratuitous. As you say the 80/20 rule applies - A $10 Craftsman or $15 Olsen (my preference among cheaper saws) gets you most of the way there for a fraction of the cost. I think that critique applies equally to tools like L-N/Veritas planes as well though. After all a Windsor 33 only costs $10, and the wood doesn't care what brand of chisel-holding fixture you use.

I think the Knew Concepts saws are at the same level of extravagance as L-N or Veritas tools, and nowhere near BCTW. I personally draw the line at the Titanium coping/fret saws, though.

[lowell holmes]

Hey Jim, you wouldn't happen to have a Gramercy bow saw kit to compare (I know its a little apples to oranges)?

BTW, congrats on the new 'toy', ehem, I mean tool.

I have Gramercy . It is good, but mine is not spectacular. I find the blades to be grabby. I have not been able to fix it to where I'm satisfied. I cannot eliminate the blade from bowing when cutting something.

I broke one of the arms from over tightening the saw
I made the saw out of curly maple. I am going to make new arms out of qs white oak and see if it helps. I think increased tension on the blade will help. The KC fretsaw is a different animal.
The frame is remarkably rigid and the fretsaw blade can be tensioned to a much tauter state and the blade does not deflect while cutting. I'm going to make a dovetailed box tomorrow and see how it goes. I have other fretsaws (conventional) and the same blades in them deflect when clearing out the tails. The KC fretsaw has no deflection of the blade.

The bowsaw blades are like long coping saw blades. I find them to be grabby and the saw does not cut in a plane as easily as the KC fretsaw.

[Jim Koepke]

Hey Jim, you wouldn't happen to have a Gramercy bow saw kit to compare (I know its a little apples to oranges)?

BTW, congrats on the new 'toy', ehem, I mean tool.

Sorry John, I do not have much to compare it too. Mostly a couple of coping saws that were a bit cumbersome and a bunch of fret saws that are not as easy to set the blade tension. Many of my fret saws are also unwieldy when it comes to using the clamps for holding the blades. If one is doing a lot of pierced work this is and the difficulty of tensioning are an issue. Most of my fret old saws require bending the blade if it is to be used at something other than the standard in angle.

One big difference is the lightweight frame. Even small movements of the frame affect the path of the blade. The light frame seems to make it easier to keep it in a plane instead of its momentum moving it about.

The most important thing to me is it works very well in my hands. The first cut with the Knew Concepts saw was better controlled than any thing I have done previously with my fret or coping saws.

jtk

[John Kananis]

Thank you Lowell and Jim.

[Jim Koepke]

there are sources from c. 1900 that recommend setting coping saws up to cut on the push

There are sources from circa 2000+ that suggest one way to reduce the gaps in dovetails is to peen them over with a hammer.

Just because it was published doesn't make it valid or wise.

From personal experience I can say more of my fret saw and coping saw blades broke when set up for push stroke than on a pull stroke.

Because of that I set them up to be used on the pull stroke.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Lowell,if you use QS white oak,make the growth rings at 90 degrees from the blade.

Thanks George, I appreciate the tip. I should have figured it out myself, but didn't.

[george wilson]

I agree that ALL old sources are not good JUST because they are OLD. And,not all old men are wise. I ran into several of those during my 16 of being in a public instrument making shop. One 80 year old INSISTED that "Only the CHINESE could cast brass". I have a recipe book from the 19th. C. that offers all kinds of ways to make things that are dangerously poisonous. One recommends quenching your engraving tool in MERCURY to make it hard enough to engrave hard metals. No mention of the consequences of breathing mercury vapor.:)

Lowell,as you may already know,wood is stiffer when you try bending it at 90 degrees to the growth rings. Guitar and other spruce topped instruments use quartered spruce because it vibrates more freely when the spruce is quarter sawn. That works out pretty well,because th thin tops are much less likely to warp when they are on the quarter. And,it is much more attractive than flat cut spruce!

[Patrick Chase]

There are sources from circa 2000+ that suggest one way to reduce the gaps in dovetails is to peen them over with a hammer.

Yes, but the difference there is that there are objective and demonstrable downsides to peening dovetails in wood. The only objective arguments against push-cutting with a coping saw that I've seen in this thread are that some frames will flex and some blades will break when used in those frames (unless you actually have a saw as stiff as the KC coping saw?). I'm not using those frames, so those arguments are irrelevant to my situation.

You and I both use Western saws, which means we've bought into the advantages (inasmuch as they exist - let's not have that argument here) of cutting on the push. That being the case, why would I use this one specific saw on the pull if it's stiff enough to cut on the push?



Just because it was published doesn't make it valid or wise.

From personal experience I can say more of my fret saw and coping saw blades broke when set up for push stroke than on a pull stroke.

Because of that I set them up to be used on the pull stroke.

jtk

Fret saws are a different matter. The blades are much lighter and the retaining mechanism much less robust. IMO those always have to be used on the pull. I haven't seen quality coping saw blades fail at an excessive rate from being used on the push in a sufficiently rigid saw, though. If you use an overly flexible saw that's a different matter, because cutting on the push will cause binding and chatter as the frame flexes and then releases. That could easily snap a blade.

IMO we need to be respectful of tradition and experience, but we also need to be careful about dismissing anything non-traditional as automatically "wrong". Note that I never said that cutting on the pull is "wrong", just that a stiffer saw enables me to cut on the push and I prefer doing so. That should not be controversial, unless you have a problem with the idea that somebody somewhere might be doing things in a way you don't.

EDIT: Replaced "dovetail" with "coping" in first para. Also clarified failure rate comment.

[Pat Barry]

IMO we need to be respectful of tradition and experience, but we also need to be careful about dismissing anything non-traditional as automatically "wrong". Note that I never said that cutting on the pull is "wrong", just that a stiffer saw enables me to cut on the push and I prefer doing so. That should not be controversial, unless you have a problem with the idea that somebody somewhere might be doing things in a way you don't.
If the Knew concepts saw gives you the flexibility to cut on the push stroke then by all means do what works best. You could consider that its a better design because of that and that might add to the inherent value in that tool. I do know that lots of people put the coping saw blade in backwards and end up getting frustrated trying to push stroke them when that's not the way they are intended to operate. They probably do that because of their experience with western saws. Probably not many Japanese have this same problem.?

[Patrick Chase]

I have Gramercy . It is good, but mine is not spectacular. I find the blades to be grabby. I have not been able to fix it to where I'm satisfied. I cannot eliminate the blade from bowing when cutting something.

The grabbiness and the bowing may be a package deal, in the sense that both can be caused by inadequate tension if you're (drumroll, please) cutting on the push. To be clear, bowing can happen going either direction with an inadequately tensioned blade. Grabbiness happens if you're push-cutting and the cutting forces are higher than the tension, in which case the far arm starts to flex and release, creating a "grabby" feel.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Here are two incredible videos that will show all the ignorant users on this thread just how to use a coping saw properly. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=058TIylqcdQ

[Hilton Ralphs]

and the second one


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5msI74KNN0

[Patrick Chase]

I agree that ALL old sources are not good JUST because they are OLD. And,not all old men are wise.

True. So is Roubo (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/L%27Art_du_Menuisier_-_Scie_de_Marqueterie_avec_ses_d%C3%A9veloppements_ et_la_mani%C3%A8re_de_fen-fervir.jpg) old and wise enough? (zoom in all the way on the side view - that is one beefy fretsaw, and demonstrates that *I* was being narrow-minded in #42 when I said that they "have to be used on the pull". Mea culpa)

It seems clear to me that this is one of those arguments with no single right answer but plenty of people convinced that theirs is the One True Way.

Disclaimer: This post created with the help of my employer and Wikipedia.

[george wilson]

Roubo and Diderot and many other writers were not actually craftsmen. Craftsmen guarded their secrets,especially the farther back you go,as a rule. Certainly there is a LOT of false info. in Diderot,which we used as a source a lot in Williamsburg. We even had original copies of his works.

Patrick,it is so good that you are here to teach all of us.

[Patrick Chase]

Roubo and Diderot and many other writers were not actually craftsmen. Craftsmen guarder their secrets,especially the farther back you go,as a rule. Certainly thee is a LOT of false info. in Diderot,which we used as a source a lot in Williamsburg. We even had original copies of his works.

Patrick,it is so good that you are here to teach all of us.

I would not and do not presume to teach you. I posted a simple comment saying that I liked the fact that the KC coping saw allowed me to cut on the push. I didn't claim that that was the "only" or even "right" way or advocate that anybody else should do so. I merely said that it worked for me and added to the value of the saw in my estimation. You then replied (repeatedly) that I was "wrong".

You seem unwilling and unable to accept that other people might do things differently than you do. Have you ever wondered why people who you routinely call out as "wrong", like Sellars and Odate or even Schwartz, have broad and popular platforms for their opinions? I honestly agree that you know more than they do on balance (and vastly more than Schwartz), but it's not your knowledge that holds you back.

[george wilson]

I am sorry that you took my complimentary remark the wrong way,Patrick. You are a most valuable resource,no matter what the subject is,after all.

You are quite new here,but if you were here longer,you would have seen me write,many times,that I always tend to do things the hard way. Somehow I have bumbled my way through in several fields of work.

I would suggest here that I may be wrong,but there seems to be some confusion between the terms of "fret saw" and "coping saw". I think the 2 terms are being used interchangeably. You have,I believe the fret saw,which uses much finer blades with much finer teeth than a coping saw(Yes,KC makes a coping saw version,but it is $149.00,so I think you do not have the coping saw version. Anyway,a fine blade with very fine teeth is easier to push than a coping saw blade.

I do not recall that I ever called Odate wrong. I called out a few of his disciples as wrong. Particularly as to the number of high spots on the sole of a Japanese jack plane. Of which Odate's book clearly,and correctly shows 3,not 2,as was represented in one article(at least).

What do you mean by "Or even Schwartz"? Is he held on a higher level than Sellars or Odate?

[Pat Barry]

True. So is Roubo (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/L%27Art_du_Menuisier_-_Scie_de_Marqueterie_avec_ses_d%C3%A9veloppements_ et_la_mani%C3%A8re_de_fen-fervir.jpg) old and wise enough? (zoom in all the way on the side view - that is one beefy fretsaw...
Wow, really great legs and nice dress on that woodworker! Do you think that is real type of clothing or did Roubo use "nice looking models" back in his day also?

[Patrick Chase]

Wow, really great legs and nice dress on that woodworker! Do you think that is real type of clothing or did Roubo use "nice looking models" back in his day also?

We hashed this out a week or so back in another thread didn't we? :-)

Glamour models aren't new.

[george wilson]

You really are getting confused about my meaning,Patrick. I am not at all going "Nuclear" on you.(But now I see that you deleted that post).

What can I do when I admit that I do many things the hard way? I make violins the hard way: I fit the tops and backs perfectly to the sides before I glue them on. The standard practice is to glue them on a bit oversize,and trim to fit and then scribe the purfling afterwards. I thing this must result in some waywardness of the small dip in the edges of top and back. So,I do it the hard way. This is just one example.

When I made the Brinkley compass,I even made the numbers. Others would just use standard Gothic numbers and be done with it. I made the large numbers on the folding rules,too. Everything the hard way. And requiring a knowledge of metal work,too.

Pat,it was standard practice back then,to use false calves on men's legs as it was important for a man to "show a good calf" up to and until they stopped wearing snug fitting stockings. That included the 18th. C..

[Prashun Patel]

Come on, Guys!

Why does it come to this so many times?

I urge you to criticize each others' arguments here (I learn so much this way), but to keep criticisms of each OTHER private.

What was a great read for me is once again devolving into an election-style debate.

[Mel Fulks]

Hilton, that's funny stuff! Must have made for Hollywood talent scouts. Or filmed in a woodworking karaoke bar.

[William Adams]

Okay. I knew I was going to regret not buying the original titanium fret saw (mislike the new bird cage design), but guess I know what I’m getting for Father’s day.

[george wilson]

About the Roubo illustration mentioned above: Those were called Morris saws by the English. We made some for the cabinet shop and I do have pictures somewhere. But,we are updating our computers right now,and I don't know where to find the pictures right now. Things are different in the computer right now.

Thanks to Apple's help,we did not have to buy new computers at this time.

I have a cheap version of the Morris saw in my tool cabinet,but somehow I can't get interested in using it. They are fairly heavy compared to my antique jeweler's saws.

[Patrick Chase]

I would suggest here that I may be wrong,but there seems to be some confusion between the terms of "fret saw" and "coping saw". I think the 2 terms are being used interchangeably. You have,I believe the fret saw,which uses much finer blades with much finer teeth than a coping saw(Yes,KC makes a coping saw version,but it is $149.00,so I think you do not have the coping saw version. Anyway,a fine blade with very fine teeth is easier to push than a coping saw blade.


As I said (admittedly slightly indirectly) in post 3, I have both. As I said in multiple later posts, I use the coping saw "push" and the fretsaw "pull". Even though the fretsaw frame could apply enough tension, the blade and the plungers are suspect. Also, I use the fretsaw from below more often (not for dovetails of course), and when doing that "pull" seems to work better on a couple levels. For one thing the presentation face is usually up, and I prefer to have the blade entering that face in the cutting direction to avoid splintering.

337368




I do not recall that I ever called Odate wrong. I called out a few of his disciples as wrong. Particularly as to the number of high spots on the sole of a Japanese jack plane. Of which Odate's book clearly,and correctly shows 3,not 2,as was represented in one article(at least).

Ah, that might have been my confusion then. I thought you were calling out a diagram from his book. My apologies. How about Underhill? :-)



What do you mean by "Or even Schwartz"? Is he held on a higher level than Sellars or Odate?

No, a much much much lower level. He's gotten where he is entirely on schtick as far as I can tell (the schtick being "aw shucks, I don't know much either, but come join me on my voyage of discovery and we'll all have fun!", though he's started to veer away from that lately).

More globally, my apologies for not extending the benefit of the doubt to you. As I said in my previous message and in the one I deleted, I honestly think you're the single most knowledgeable source I've ever interacted with.

[Patrick Chase]

Okay. I knew I was going to regret not buying the original titanium fret saw (mislike the new bird cage design), but guess I know what I’m getting for Father’s day.

Yeah, that original Ti saw was an amazing bargain. Somebody (Derek?) said he was using leftover Titanium from the YF-23 program, and when that ran out he realized that it wasn't economical to produce while paying market prices for the metal. That may have changed (http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/ferro-titanium/all/) or be about to change though.

[george wilson]

No craftsman in Williamsburg ever took Roy as a serious craftsman. He was "Hollywood" as far as we were concerned. I must say,he knew how to use the system. He got to use the darkroom facility as much as he wanted. He also had permission to photograph and use anything anyone in Williamsburg made,and put it in his books. I wonder how many other names he can dream up for more of the same.

The boss liked the advertising he got for the museum.

[Patrick Chase]

No craftsman in Williamsburg ever took Roy as a serious craftsman. He was "Hollywood" as far as we were concerned. I must say,he knew how to use the system. He got to use the darkroom facility as much as he wanted. He also had permission to photograph and use anything anyone in Williamsburg made,and put it in his books. I wonder how many other names he can dream up for more of the same.

The boss liked the advertising he got for the museum.

Yeah, another guy like Schwartz with more schtick than substance. I didn't realize he worked with you at Williamsburg. It's a real eye-opener how far it's gotten both of them though.

[Pat Barry]

I think both of those guys have done tons with regard to woodworking, gaining intetest, educating the masses, some promotion of course (mostly Schwartz). I don't think we have the right to disrespect them. Better to just leave them alone, unspoken.

[george wilson]

You wouldn't,being a magazine person!!:)

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, another guy like Schwartz with more schtick than substance. I didn't realize he worked with you at Williamsburg. It's a real eye-opener how far it's gotten both of them though.
Both wanted to step forward with a brand and be on camera . Don't think anyone has heard them claim to be George's equal. And making Renaissance quality stuff is not the niche of CW.

[george wilson]

Hopefully,it is,Mel. But do not think there aren't bumps on the road!!:)

[Tom Stenzel]

The answer came back:



Guess I need to head out to the shop to release some tension.

jtk

And remember to ease up on the saw blade while you're there :).

Nice saw. Enjoy!

-Tom

[William Adams]

FWIW, the surplus titanium 1/8" sheeting was from when F-22 production was halted prematurely. Nice variation on the swords to plowshares theme.

Also, really appealing to me, since I've had an idea that it would be interesting to feature as many different elements in my personal tool cabinet as was possible / made sense.

Anyone have an original pattern titanium fret saw to spare?

[george wilson]

There are 3 KC aluminum saws on Amazon on the "Best deals" site. 70% off is advertised. But,they want $105.00 for a 5" aluminum fret saw. I hardly call that 70% off. And,I THINK it said used!