router bits on a shaper

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm not trying to start a discussion of the value of router tables over shapers, or the size of moldings they can handle,...

I am just wondering, for those of you who are using a shaper with a router bit/spindle, what are your experiences using these small bits at ~10,000 RPM? Does what you need? Wish you had a router table? Not as good a finish? Feed rate is too slow and burns wood?

[Cary Falk]

I have been using router bits in a shaper for years with no issues. I just slow my feed rate. You might look into those cmt or amana insert molding heads also. Once the head is purchased the knives are about $15. I have a router table with a 3hp router an haven't used it in years.

[Erik Loza]

Mark, here are my thoughts:

1.) If there's room, I would still have a router table even if you had a router spindle on your combo. For the same reason many guys keep a 14" bandsaw in addition to the big one: Sometimes, t's just faster and easier to have a dedicated setup.

2.) You will probably find that if you decide to run router bits on a combo, 10,000rpm is plenty good. At last that has been the experience of most of my guys. The whole shaper assembly of a combo is so much more stable and precise than a router. The runout, vibration, etc. is just more controlled.

3.) All that being said, I wouldn't plan on running tiny bits on the combo with a router spindle. No 1/4" bits or anything like that. Those probably actually do need 15Kprm+. But all your bigger 1/2" panel raisers and cope & stick stuff ought to be fine.

4.) Lastly, if I had the choice to do it on a router or a shaper, I'd do it on the shaper. For example, the router spindle for any combo machine will probably run you around $700 or so. The question I might ask myself is, "Could I buy some tooling with that $700 that would do the same thing?". Because all things being equal, the shaper tool will give the better result.

Anyhow, I'm not really any sort of shaper expert. Maybe some combo guys who use the router on their machines will chime in.

Erik

[Rick Potter]

I have a medium duty shaper, as well as a router table. I have put router bits in the shaper for years, with good results. I make all my raised panels in the shaper with router bits. I set up two router tables for cope and stick, and the shaper for raised panels.

Years ago I tested some common bits in the RT and shaper to compare. The only time the shaper was not as clean as the router table was on small bits, like 1/4" round overs, when using soft woods. The router was much cleaner.

I have a lift in the router table, and find it easier to adjust. On the other hand, the shaper is much quieter.

Your mileage may vary.

[Chris Fournier]

I made a new spindle for for a stand alone shaper that I used to own so that I could use router bits and it worked very well.

[Jeff Monson]

I've used my router spindle on my shaper a few times. I still prefer to use the router table but it does work fine. Looks really odd in my machine, having a large shaper hood and fence with a little 1/2" shank bit sitting in it.

[John Lankers]

I find especially the smaller bits don't spin fast enough, even though my shaper runs the router spindle at up to 15,000 RPM with the VFD cranked up all the way. There is a reason why smaller routers run at higher RPM. To slow and the finish is rough, to fast and it tends to burn.

[Philip Rodriquez]

I have a 3 HP shaper and a router table. As others have said, a shaper will do a decent job unless you are using smaller bits. I would classify a bit as small if it is less than 1" in diameter

[Jeff Duncan]

I have several shapers and a full sized router table and also occasionally have made specialty smaller router tables for specific applications....they all have their place and can be beneficial. I still use router bits on one of my shapers running right around 7k I think, and the medium to larger size bits work fine for me.

good luck,
JeffD

[pat warner]

There is an efficiency vs rpm curve for all cutters.
And feed rate is part of the equation.
At peak efficiency (rpm) the cutter does its best at cut quality, stock removal, chip ejection, minimum feed energy and so on.
Some cutters will do well on the shaper, others won't.
There is an overlap (shaper vs router).
It's conditional (sharpness, wear, diameters, shanks, modulus, etc).
When in doubt: Test.

[Rich Riddle]

I owned a Jet small shaper that ran both small shaper bits and 1/2" router bits. I ended up giving it away and getting a router table and shaper. Never quite performed the correct way in my opinion.

[Joe Calhoon]

I was surprised at how well router bits work in the shaper. We tried haunching a beaded frame with the bit Kreg sells. Worked real well and cleaner than the haunches we used to get with a Morso. No tearout even without a backer. I tried at both 12000 and 9000 rpm as I want to get a router collet for an older shaper that only goes to 9000. There was very little difference at the slower speed. A 3/4" straight bit worked good for cross trenching. Have not tried any small bits yet other than a 1/2" dovetail for a cross dovetail. They all worked well with no burning.

Beading was done with a standard Freeborn shaper cutter.

336645336646

[Jim Andrew]

I have used my Freud cabinet door set in my 3hp shaper, but shaper cutters work beter. The cabinet filled up with chips making raised panels, as the cutter is on the bottom, and it throws the chips downward. The shaper cutter goes on top and throws the chips up. Otherwise it worked acceptably.

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences.

[Martin Wasner]

I can attest that I've never used a router bit in a shaper. I will say that most shapers spin way too ding dong fast. The tooling builds up too much heat, can't evacuate chips effectively, and dulls prematurely as a result. Our two fastest shapers are spinning at 7k rpm and I wish I could run that down to 6k rpm. But they are only cutting end grain in short amounts. But the carbide life is pretty short on a 5" head for the amount of work they do.

Most stuff is running at 6k rpm, but we've got an 1¼ stack of dado head in an old Rockwell shaper spinning at 3500 rpm for notching drawers. The panel raiser is running 4500 rpm. We've got a four wing straight cutter that hasn't had a knife change in at least ten thousand linear feet. I wouldn't be surprised if it were closer to fifteen thousand feet. That's pretty amazing.

I've got it scribbled in my notes somewhere at the shop, but there's a formula for figuring out what rpm to run certain cutters at based on the number of wings, diameter, and feed rate. At the end of the day you won't be able to get it exact, but close enough and it'll take some playing to get best results, but it does give you a good starting point.

[Mel Fulks]

Carbide generally needs a lot of speed and and generally needs more sanding without it. With the small 3" diameter door sets failure to run them at 10,000 rpm can produce a cope and stick that will not fit. Seen that at least three times,always preceded by "Mel, the sharpener ruined this set of cutters". 10,000 rpm is painfully slow for a carbide router bit, but in the case of an emergency match to produce part of a profile for a few feet can be worth it.

[Paul Biron]

Years ago I tested some common bits in the RT and shaper to compare. The only time the shaper was not as clean as the router table was on small bits, like 1/4" round overs, when using soft woods. The router was much cleaner.

The soft vs hardwood aspect of this discussion has been on my mind for a while, and have never seen it addressed. For those who have used router bits on their shaper, can you comment on whether you've had noticeably different results in soft and hardwood?

The hardest woods I work on a regular basis are doug fir and aspen. For those who have had "no problem" with router bits on their shaper, do you think I will get acceptable cuts in these softer woods?

[Susumu Mori]

I use router bits with my shaper often (saw-shaper combo) including 1/4 spiral bits.
As somebody already mentioned, the cut quality, especially for softwood (+ heavy cuts), may not be as good due to the low rpm (mine goes up to 10K).

I am a hobbyist and within the range of my limited operations, I use router bits with the shaper only when the shaper's tooling can't deliver the same operation. That is when wood/sheets need to pass over the cutters, like dados and grooves in the middle of wide materials. For narrow stocks, we can safely use a slot cutter with the stock in a vertical position against the fence. I'm not sure what other operations would require a router bit with a shaper. In these case, I don't need the best cutting quality because most of the cut surface would be hidden. A bit rough edge on the surface would disappear after sanding.

I am a router-hater and I would take a bit rough edge over the screamer. Shaper is so smooth, quiet, and stable. Also with all the heavy-duty guards, big and heavy foundation, and sliding table, I feel much safer.