Choosing a euro combo. Need some help

[Jeff Finazzo]

Hello
i have decided to purchase a combo machine and have narrowed my choices to a Minimax CU300 or a Felder CF531. From what I can tell these machines are generally in the same quality and capacity arena. I'm slightly leaning twards the Felder but when I got pricing if was shocked to see it was a few thousand higher in cost. Am I missing something? I don't see why. Anyone have any insight?

[Rick Fisher]

I'm pricing out sliders right now and plan to order one next week. I've found the same thing, Felder is more expensive, pound for pound and feature for feature. They're hard to compare.

You kinda have to not listen to the sales guys and simply look at the spec's ..

I was most surprised to find that many sliders don't support using dado blades. If that matters to you, you may want to confirm.

I am leaning pretty hard towards SCM.. but might take the weekend mull it over.

[David T gray]

u guys ordering from felder hold out on them forever and the price will start dropping tell them all about minimaxs pricing

i started out at $15000 for a k700 before tax and shipping , 2 clamps , 2 blades

at the end it was $14290 2 free clamps inc shipping inc tax 2 blades and they would set the mechine up for me for free. i ended up going with minimax and bought a s600 with the price difference of a s315 and the k700. it seemed like i could add anything to the saw and they would make it 14000ish strip it down 14000s , 14000s is what they wanted no matter what that was.

[mark mcfarlane]

I'm in the same boat.

Besides the specs, it may be worthwhile to look at what's included in the price: Is the mortising unit included in the base price? Wheels? Dado support and dado throat plate? Is a scoring unit and blade included? Are saw blades readily available (i.e. special arbor cut)? Do you prefer straight j/p knives that screw in or a quick change Tersa head? (Spiral heads are available for both, at an extra cost).

If I remember right, the CU300 includes all the features above, the Felder has them as additional price add-ons, which will probably make the price difference a few thousand more than you thought, if these are features you are interested in.

My general assessment is: both are great machines, the CU300 gives considerably more bang for the buck, and you will be happy whatever you decide.

[Rich Riddle]

I own the Hammer line of Felder and a few MiniMax tools as well. I prefer the MiniMax line. Consider after-service care and the availability of parts in addition to everything else.

[David Kumm]

Be sure to look at the guts of each machine, how heavy the slider extrusion is, and strength of base support. Bells and whistles are nice but it is the inner build that will determine how it perform after a few years. Dave

[David Hawxhurst]

i don't think you'll go wrong with either one. i went with felder as the show room and parts are less than 200 mi from me. there are commercial shops in the area that are running felder equipment so the felder tech are often not far. to the best of my knowledge there are no commercial shops running minimax equipment but there are probably some shops running scm. the scm stuff is a step up from the minimax stuff.
both should be able to look in their data base for someone who might be willing to let you visit so you can put you hands one before making the decision.

[John Lankers]

Jeff, I owned the CF531 Pro for several years, it is a very capable machine and it never let me down. I did eventually trade it in for a KF700 and AD741, the trade in value was almost what I paid for the new machine several years earlier plus the discounts from Felder when I bought the new machines. I sold the CF531 for two reasons, a full combo was awkward in my shop plus I fell in love with the new spiral cutter head on the J/P which wasn't available back then.
I tend to agree with Felder MSRP being ridiculously high, but every so often they offer substantial discounts where they knock of several thousand dollars. On the other hand I'd say "you get what you pay for"
Edit: I forgot to add, every Felder is custom built, you choose the configuration and options that suit your needs.

[Andy Giddings]

Jeff, if you are after a combo and cost is an issue, I know Felder are offering a large discount on the Hammer C3 Comfort package right now with quite a few bells and whistles included. Of course if it has to be Felder or MiniMax then ignore this

[Jeff Finazzo]

Thanks to you all for the feedback. It is very helpful. I dug into the details a bit and now can't see why I would even consider the Felder. It is a little over 4K more and does NOT include a mortiser, moble kit, small fence or clamp element. The Minimax includes all those things. I just don't understand why such a large price difference. The Felder does included the Silent Power cutter head. But the Mimimax had the Tersa cutter which i think is very good and not a downgrade over the spiral. The Minimax pricing is about the same as the similar Hammer C3 model (maybe a bit higher) Which I think (maybe I'm wrong on this) the Minimax is a step up from the Hammer.

The only thing I noticed in the specs that may or may not mean much is the weight of the Felder is higher and the sliding table mechanism looks to be a better desing band more robust. Now that is 100% from me looking at photos and online videos so I could be completely wrong. Would be so nice to kick the tires on these machines.

[Steven Wayne]

Just last week I was trying to make up my mind on a Euro sliding table saw. What made the decision for me was seeing the machine, Minimax Si315 Elite-S in my case, in person. Once I saw the machine and looked it over I was sure it was the right choice for me. While not a combo machine, I feel like the decision process was quite similar. From my experience, Minimax machines might be available with a discount off list pricing depending upon the machine, availability, etc.

I have a similar impression of Hammer - a step down from Minimax.

[Chris Fournier]

I have looked at all three manufacturer's machines listed in this thread and have owned three SCM products, currently two. My Pal owns the CU300, four years old. My quick observations:

SCM/Minimax has the heaviest castings (they have their own foundry, Felder/Hammer outsource castings)
SCM/Minimax has the sturdiest sheetmetal cabinets (look on the inside of the machines and you will see what I mean)
SCM/Minimax has the greatest working area specs, Felder/Hammer make you buy extenions - more $$$
High end Felder have sophisticated electronic controls which I admit would be nice but not for the $ asked
Felder likes to CNC machine parts that could be simply cast or outsourced as less fancy components. None of these bobbles makes the machine one bit more functional, nice to look at though.
SCM/Minimax has the right price and represents the highest value
Having owned SCM machines for over 20 years I can say that they are near flawless workhorses that pay for themselves in a busy shop.

When I chose my machines Hammer were not robust enough, Felder were more in the mix but their pricing was several thousand beyond SCM. I bought the CU410 Elite S, awesome. I helped my frind set up his CU300, great machine in the 300mm catagory.

I did buy a Felder branded power feeder.

Let us know what you end up buying!

[Scott Allen27]

I am just a hobby user , and got my CU300 last year.
After using it for a year, I must say I am extremely happy with the decision I made.
It is simple, heavy, and very accurate. I wouldn't have another machine unless it was a cu410 .
When budget allows , I will be adding a MM16 or 20. I really like the way the company operates, it spends the money in the right places (castings , motors , steel) and not on marketing or glitz .
I don't think you will be unhappy with the CU300.

[Ralph Dayton]

I'd agree that you'll probably do well with either manufacturer. My shop is predominantly Felder/Hammer...mostly because I've developed a really good working relationship with the crew at Felder USA in Delaware. I do have a Minimax bandsaw, which is just awesome, and they've been a real pleasure to work with as well. I'm very satisfied with both lines of equipment and I'm confident you will be pleased with either. I'll just throw this in...proximity of parts and service is priceless. There's never a convenient time for a machine to go down. I'm close enough to New Castle, DE that if they ship a part I'll have it the next day with regular UPS Ground. For me the Minimax parts come from much further afield...Georgia I believe. That can take days...or an overnight charge, which can be expensive if there's any weight to the part.

[Erik Loza]

I am (obviously) not at all un-biased but here are a couple of observations from the Minimax side of things:

1.) I don't really have any unhappy CU300 owners. Everyone seems to love that machine. The only complaint I ever seem to hear is that a few guys have told me that they wish they would have gotten the 8.5' sliding table over the 5.5' slider. That's purely personal preference, however.

2.) The instances where I have had a CU300 owner "upgrade" to a bigger/fancier/more advanced competitor's unit, I try to ask or understand why or what it was the person felt the need to do that. So far, I have never gotten an answer that had anything to do with woodworking. In other words, I have never heard, "The Minimax won't do this or won't do that". The answer I have gotten is along the lines of, "I just wanted to say I own that brand". Not that there's anything wrong with that. You should buy what you want. When we were shopping for a new car, my vote was for a Honda Fit. My wife wanted a Mini Cooper, however. I could not get a clear answer from her as to why. The Honda was less expensive, has a better reliability record, plus I know how to work on Hondas. The Mini was substantially more expensive, a worse reliability record, and I have practically no tools that can work on it but my wife "wanted a Mini", so that's what we bought. Only each one of us can decide our own motivations.

The other machine you are looking at is also quite nice. You couldn't go wrong with either. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[Peter Kelly]

Hello
i have decided to purchase a combo machine and have narrowed my choices to a Minimax CU300 or a Felder CF531. From what I can tell these machines are generally in the same quality and capacity arena. I'm slightly leaning twards the Felder but when I got pricing if was shocked to see it was a few thousand higher in cost. Am I missing something? I don't see why. Anyone have any insight?MiniMax pricing comparative to Felder has a lot to do with economy of scale. MiniMax is part of SCM Group S.p.a. which is very large, has several factories, their own foundry, etc. Felder is relatively small by comparison and needs to sub out part manufacturing, does not have a foundry and is based in Austria where the labour prices are among the highest in EU.

Overall fit and finish of the CF531 might be slightly nicer but it's a big jump in cost from the CU300. As above, I don't hear a lot of complaints about either machine though.

[Chris Fournier]

I am (obviously) not at all un-biased but here are a couple of observations from the Minimax side of things:

1.) I don't really have any unhappy CU300 owners. Everyone seems to love that machine. The only complaint I ever seem to hear is that a few guys have told me that they wish they would have gotten the 8.5' sliding table over the 5.5' slider. That's purely personal preference, however.

2.) The instances where I have had a CU300 owner "upgrade" to a bigger/fancier/more advanced competitor's unit, I try to ask or understand why or what it was the person felt the need to do that. So far, I have never gotten an answer that had anything to do with woodworking. In other words, I have never heard, "The Minimax won't do this or won't do that". The answer I have gotten is along the lines of, "I just wanted to say I own that brand". Not that there's anything wrong with that. You should buy what you want. When we were shopping for a new car, my vote was for a Honda Fit. My wife wanted a Mini Cooper, however. I could not get a clear answer from her as to why. The Honda was less expensive, has a better reliability record, plus I know how to work on Hondas. The Mini was substantially more expensive, a worse reliability record, and I have practically no tools that can work on it but my wife "wanted a Mini", so that's what we bought. Only each one of us can decide our own motivations.

The other machine you are looking at is also quite nice. You couldn't go wrong with either. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

I drive a Honda Fit!

Sadly I also ride Ducatis. Split personality I guess.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Jeff, I think you'll be happy with your MiniMax machines, they're very good.

I went through your process and made the opposite decision due to awful MiniMax support in Canada, at the time I was buying my machine. It seems to be much different in the USA.

The other thing I liked about Felder/Hammer was that you could order exactly what you wanted, as they were custom built to order. That gave me some flexibility for the configuration I needed in my small shop........You're really going to like your new machine, there's a learning curve however I would never go back to the NA style machines...........Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Unless things have changed, the selling/packaging methodology is different between Felder and MiniMax. The former truly offers a ton of customizations and that fits the needs of certain folks. The latter generally packages "most" (if not all) of the things that many buyers want for one price. That simplifies both the sales and production process and can have some cost advantages. One of the things I happen to like a lot about my MiniMax slider is that it takes standard tooling. I don't need specially drilled/machined blades, etc. In fact, I still use the same blades I used with the cabinet saw I owned prior to stepping up to the slider. That's something I appreciate as a hobbyist.

No question, however, you can't go wrong with either brand/manufacturer. Great stuff.

BTW, I agree with something that Erik mentioned...the 8'5" slider is very nice to have if you have the ~19' necessary to support the full throw of the wagon.

[Erik Loza]

There was actually a time when every Minimax machine was built to order. That was back in the 80's and 90's, when the brand was handled primarily through the dealer network. That's why you see wacky things like an S45 bandsaw with a 1.5hp, three-phase motor. One of the smartest things (then) Minimax USA CEO Jim Strain did was standardize the composition codes for the US market on all the Minimax machines. That way, the assembly line has only one configuration to worry about and because of this, the US operation is able to buy quantities of machines from Italy and get much better pricing than if they were ordered piece-meal, one at a time. That business model is still used, today. Sam and I basically tell the US Trade Manager how the Minimax machines should be configured and that then becomes the "standard composition code" for each particular machine that gets stocked in the US. I see the numbers and it's a lot cheaper, for example, to have the production line pack the mortising unit and all that other jazz with the CU300 than to have me send a customer to Parts, later. This is a difference between Minimax and the other company: We make money entirely off machine sales. Supplementary tooling or accessory sales are not money makers for SCM.

That being said, I can still order custom machines. In fact, I just delivered a big saw/shaper to a customer: 100% built-to-order. The tradeoff is that because the these machines are not a standardized configuration, discounts or pricing opportunities may be slimmer and also, obviously, the 3-4 month lead time. I realize that some customers may like the appeal of having the machine built exactly for their particular needs and I can do that, but historically, folks have not chosen that route. At least not most of my owners.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Erik, I'd like to see pictures of the saw shaper. The nicest saw shaper I've ever seen is a SCMI from the 1990s. Built on the same platform as the SI16 and the saw and shaper could be adjusted so you could cut off and shape in the same pass. I think the elite S is the heaviest saw shaper out there now- at least in US. Dave

[Erik Loza]

Dave, this customer ordered the standard ST4 Elite but he did get it with the overhead saw guard and the power feeder swing arm. I have never actually seen one with all those accy's, in the flesh. I plan to ask him for photos once he gets it all unpacked and set up. Yes, the Elite-S is the monster of the lineup.

Erik

[David Kumm]

I think the Elite S is as heavy or heavier than the SCM Nova. MM machines are not necessarily lighter than SCM. I'm not sure there is a comparable to the Elite S sold here but I haven't seen it or the 700 side by side. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

I'll chime in. First, I think both SCM and Felder are fantastic companies to work with. I bought and refurbished a 1970s SCM jointer branded and sold by Rockwell. I had some questions on how to disassemble and reassemble the tables. I called SCM and the service person on the phone wasn't sure and he said he'd call a field service guy who might know. Sure enough an older guy with a name like Guido called within a few minutes and we talked about my jointer. He didn't know but he said there was another guy who he was pretty sure would know and sure enough within a few minutes another older guy with an equally Italian name called and knew the answers. The US factory sight also chased down some documentation for me to on the machine. This on a 40 year old machine they built was sold as a Rockwell.

On Felder, I ended up getting a KF700WSP saw/shaper combo. Felder was fantastic to work with too. I've had a few questions in the past and they were always great. About 3 years ago I had a spare day in Munich and I was able to arrange a factory tour in Triol Austria. I was very impressed. CAD design and robotic manufacturing everywhere. 700-800 workers, super clean facility and tons of machines in production, maybe 1000 machines. I was told that all machines are built to order and they will even custom color powder coat them. They had a bunch of factory jigs powder coated in hot pink. They said they had a customer order a whole shop in hot pink and the minimum order of powder was way more than those machines required :)

Overall I believe that in the commercial shop space CNC is the future and both Felder and SCM are both well positioned with strong CNC lines.

Lastly, Felder does not have their own foundry, not sure how relevant that is. You can source quality or crap and you can cast quality or crap. I am pretty convinced that both companies have quality castings. An example of the care Felder takes is once thy clamp a casting down for machining, say a table top, they do all machining without remounting the part. They had CNC milling centers with tool changers that held like 100 bits.

I would say you should ideally visit owners of both machines and get a feel for them. I'd be happy to own either but there are subtle differences.

[Chris Fournier]

I agree with Joe about the foundry values that he points out. I point out the castings because the SCM castings were significantly heavier than the Felder/Hammer castings and not just because the work surfaces were larger. I like heavy castings on my woodworking and metal working machines.

[Jim Becker]

Erik, I remember Jim Strain and agree he made a good decision about standardizing the package.

[Tom M. Schmidt]

I was faced with a similar decision last month, though looking at the Hammer line, not Felder. There wasn't anywhere close to me where I could look at either one, so I relied a lot on comments of owners here as well as the Yahoo groups. I assumed the CU300 (new) was outside my budget and settled on the Hammer C3-31 Comfort combo machine which was on 60th anniversary special at ~$10k well equipped with 79" slider.

A couple brief (though very positive and responsive) exchanges with Erik and Sam, and watching SunnyBeeches videos as well as the SoloWoodworker site convinced me I should look again at the Minimax. I was fortunate to find a barely used 2011 CU300 Smart with 8.5' slider, well under my budget and within driving range, so I took a look at it and decided on the spot to bring it home. I am new to sliders and shapers, but I couldn't be happier with my decision. Though marketed to hobbyists and small shops, it's a seriously industrial quality machine, well sorted out over time, with ready access to parts and expertise as needed. I'm sure the Hammer would have been nice too, but now that I have the CU300, I don't even think about looking back or second guessing it.

Good luck with your decision, can't go wrong either way.

[Erik Loza]

...does not have their own foundry, not sure how relevant that is. You can source quality or crap and you can cast quality or crap. I am pretty convinced that both companies have quality castings...

Joe, I agree with you and will add that the relevence is the cost to the end user. Since SCM has its own iron foundries, it does not have to purchase castings from some other vendor, which helps keep the selling price as competitive as possible. That has always been my sales pitch for Minimax: If you don't mind a machine that's the same color as your washer and dryer, you'll get the most iron and steel for your dollar.

Erik

[David Kumm]

The thickness and ribbing on the cast iron top have become more important recently as the steel used in the base has become lighter. The internals used to be supported by the base but now many machines hang the guts from the underside of the cast iron top. Not a bad system but requires the top to be strong enough not to dip in the center. I liked the old way but change comes hard to me. Dave

[Jim Andrew]

Erik, does Minimax make a saw competitive to the K3 winner? Too late for me, but others will want to know.

[mark mcfarlane]

Erik, does Minimax make a saw competitive to the K3 winner? Too late for me, but others will want to know.

The K3 ranges from $6K to $9K. Minimax's SC 2 Classic (https://www.scmgroup.com/en/products/classical-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/sc-2-classic.706) (short throw 5.5') and SC 4 Elite (https://www.scmgroup.com/en/products/classical-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/sc-4-elite.663) are available in the USA and are comparably priced.

[Erik Loza]

Erik, does Minimax make a saw competitive to the K3 winner? Too late for me, but others will want to know.


What Mark M. said, above. ^^^^

One comment I hear pretty often is that folks did not realize how much this or that brand cost, by the time they optioned it up to what they really wanted. And that's for a number of brands. For example, I recently priced out the "industrial" version of everyone's favorite cabinet saw with the blade stopping technology and tried to spec it out as a Minimax SC2 Classic would be configured. To my surprise, the price was not much different. Now, I'm not saying one is better than the other but I am saying that for a long time, folks have thought sliders were too expensive but perhaps that is not so much the case any longer.

Erik

[Susumu Mori]

When I was on the market, Hammer lines were cheaper than Minimax with a relatively large discount.
I thought the price-wise, Hammer < MM < Felder was the way they put themselves in the market.
I bought a Hammer mostly based on the fact that I live near Delaware, but the price was also a big issue.
I looked at the Hammer website today and found that they no longer carry discounts. As Mark said, the basic K3 starts from $6K. They used to start where SS/Powermatic end but now it is almost $2K higher.

I have been communicating with Felder frequently for catalog purchase (blades, tooling, etc). They have been treating me very well, but clearly they are having very strong sales and they are getting stretched out. I believe the deep discount they were carrying was for those in-stock or relatively fixed configurations. I wonder if they no longer have inventory in US and Austria such that all orders are now purely order-based. That's my guess.

One thing Felder is doing much better than MM is their website. They are clear, informative, and educational with nice videos. Parts and tooling can be found and purchased online. Erik told us SCM/MM renewed the web but now it is more confusing than ever....

[Jim Becker]

ar, informative, and educational with nice videos. Parts and tooling can be found and purchased online. Erik told us SCM/MM renewed the web but now it is more confusing than ever....
Erik's own site helps make up for that... ;)

[Andy Giddings]

Susumu, the discounts are still there - you do have to register with the Felder e-shop to see them where there is a page of specials, with discounted K3, Bandsaws etc. The basic K3 Winner which is normally $5.6k is selling for $3.8k. Also, they have significant discounts on the C3 Comfort package right now due to the anniversary.
In terms of inventory, having just been through the sales cycle myself, from my experience in the Hammer line the K3, bandsaw and jointer planer are kept in inventory but others tend to be order based

[Dory Rice]

Susumu, the discounts are still there - you do have to register with the Felder e-shop to see them where there is a page of specials, with discounted K3, Bandsaws etc. The basic K3 Winner which is normally $5.6k is selling for $3.8k. Also, they have significant discounts on the C3 Comfort package right now due to the anniversary.
In terms of inventory, having just been through the sales cycle myself, from my experience in the Hammer line the K3, bandsaw and jointer planer are kept in inventory but others tend to be order based

I have owned a Minimax Classic 300 for 10 years. It's been a headache from the beginning. The Slider is good, I love the crosscut table, and the planer works well. But the fence on the saw is useless, and I'm tired of the dust despite the machine being connected to an Oneida. Support from Minimax is non-existant. I regret my purchase every time I walk into the shop.

[Todd Willhoit]

I've owned a Minimax Classic 300 for seven years. It was a hold-over model and a demo saw if I remember correctly. It is a great saw. Never any issues. The crosscut fence is excellent and always remains square. I rarely use the rip fence, but it is handy to have the option for both short and tall positions. The joiner/planer are fantastic. Erik has always been very helpful, from the sale to commissioning to parts. I have absolutely no regrets. I would do it again tomorrow.

[Erik Loza]

I have owned a Minimax Classic 300 for 10 years. It's been a headache from the beginning. The Slider is good, I love the crosscut table, and the planer works well. But the fence on the saw is useless, and I'm tired of the dust despite the machine being connected to an Oneida. Support from Minimax is non-existant. I regret my purchase every time I walk into the shop.

Dory, who did you buy your CU300 from? Minimax USA or an SCM Group dealer?

Erik

[Dory Rice]

Dory, who did you buy your CU300 from? Minimax USA or an SCM Group dealer?

Erik

Erik, we bought our combo machine from Minimax USA when they were still based in Austin, Texas.

[Erik Loza]

Erik, we bought our combo machine from Minimax USA when they were still based in Austin, Texas.

Do you remember the name of your sales guy? I'm one of the original MM USA reps and even if you didn't buy it from me, still try to help if I can. Minimax USA was absorbed back into SCM Group NA in 2008 but I would have been there when you bought your machine. For the record, the same phone number that Minimax USA used since 2001 (866-975-9663) STILL will direct any customer to SCM Group's switchboard in Duluth, where you can reach service or parts.

Erik