Making a Living Woodworking

[Tim Bridge]

Is it possible to make a living woodworking out of my garage making small projects and selling them at flea markets or other places?

I have a bandsaw, router table, planer, miter saw, table saw, spindle sander, drill press and an assortment of hand tools.

I am tired or working for electrical contractors and would like to go into a new direction.

[Erik Loza]

I'm not a woodworker, but do have lots of owners who are (or were) in your position. My answer to your question would be "unlikely". I do have a number of garage/home-shop customers who successfully make and sell furniture, but as a side job, not the primary income source. The few who I do have, who do it full time out of their garages, are either retired and have of pension for steady income or have a spouse that still works full-time. The fine furniture market is fickle and the flea market/mom-n-pop crafts vendors probably have it worse. This is not to discourage you, just an observation from the guy who sells the equipment you would use to do something like this with. If you enjoy it and enjoy selling ww'ing projects, then maybe you should still do it it but as far making a living, that would probably be very challenging. I'm sure others will chime in here. Best of luck with your journey.

Erik

[Martin Wasner]

People have done a lot with less. Tough row to hoe though. If you're smart, lucky, and hard working you can do just about anything.

I started my cabinet shop with a tablesaw, planer, jointer, and a chop box. I'm not sure I could do it again knowing what I know now.

[roger wiegand]

If you enjoy very long hours and are OK with spending a lot of time on the road promoting your products, are a superb salesman, are a decent accountant-- or at least know how to track money in a non-self-deluding manner, and can work efficiently (perfectionists need not apply), and have a couple of ideas for products that will let you create a niche market for yourself, then sure, it's possible. It's worth trying in any event, as long as you don't allow yourself to run up a mountain of credit card debt that will take years to get out from under. I'd think about trying it while still retaining a day job for a while. Make a small stock of product and do flea markets and shows every weekend for six months to get a feel for what the life is like and what the market for what you are making is like. Also look around a lot at what others are doing and selling-- and keep in mind that most of them will not tell you the truth about how well/badly they are doing. Spend some time watching a booth to see how many customers actually buy something and what they buy.

[Matt Day]

+1 roger.

Also be prepared for likely monotonous work. I couldn't make cutting boards all day for instance.

My gut tells me it will be extremely hard, especially if you're supporting a family. Remember to track how many hours you worked to make X number of products and how many hours it took to sell X number. Tally it up to figure out your hourly rate - will likely be in the single digits.

[Tim Bridge]

I suppose you guys are right. It's probably not a good idea to make a job out of your hobby.

[Andy Giddings]

Agree with all of the comments so far. I would add that running your own business of any kind requires a totally different mindset and drive compared to working for someone else. Not everyone can do it and hats off to those that can. As far as making a job out of your hobby, really depends upon what you are making as to how much of a problem that would be.

A bigger question is what are you going to sell that makes people want to buy at a profit to you, will you sell enough of them and can it be copied easily? If you know the answer to those questions and have the passion/drive then I would at least try it on a part time basis, keeping your main job as a safety net

[Stew Hagerty]

So far I have been able to make just enough to buy more tools. LOL

[Ben Rivel]

I suppose you guys are right. It's probably not a good idea to make a job out of your hobby.
I have found it rarely is. Many end up burning out and losing a love for/in something that once brought them enjoyment. When you turn something you used to do for fun into work, it literally takes the fun out of it.

[Lee Schierer]

I've never tried it, but here are some things to consider.

What market are you going to fill the need in? Is there a market for things that you can make? Without customers, your products don't sell and if you don't make what people want for the price they feel they want to pay you don't sell anything. Most advisers say you should have at least 2 years of your current income in reserve to make a start in a small business. While you are busy making things, you aren't making any sales, calling on potential customers or buying materials.

[David Linnabary]

Great way to ruin a perfectly good hobby. :)

David

[Robert Engel]

I've seen enough guys look like they're starving to death at flea markets and art festivals.

I've been studying on a business model for ww'ing after I retire.
Furniture repair can be a foot in the door to commissioned furniture but its a very select and narrow clientele.
Custom cabs through contractors and interior designers, but ver difficult to compete with commercial cab shops.
Ultimate dream for me is building reproduction furniture.

That leaves you with selling art projects like carvings, boxes, plaques, etc.
I don't believe you could make a living at it unless you can sell hundreds of units a month.

Don't quit your day job, in fact, be glad you have a job at all!
Do you not like electrical work, or just don't like taking orders?
If so, why not start your own electrical business?

[Peter Aeschliman]

I went through a similar decision. I absolutely hated my job, and was ready to throw my career away to be a struggling woodworker.

I know what it's like to hate your job. I'm the type that takes it home with me emotionally, so I found it affected my overall happiness profoundly.

My dad gave me great advice at the time: Make an adjustment. Don't throw your career away- just try a different variation of it. Find a new employer. Find a new niche within your current field. Whatever. Try that first.

What great advice. I made an employer change, and have enjoyed my job well enough since then. Is it my first passion? No. But I don't wake up dreading going to work, I don't think about work over the weekend unless something big is going on, and I make enough money to not have financial stress. I've never been happier, and all it took was an adjustment, not a 180 degree change.

Good luck man!

[Bruce Wrenn]

The easiest way to make a small fortune in woodworking is to start with a large one. It helps if you know how to replace toilets. Even though a large percentage of my income comes from WW, the other stuff helps pay the bills. As an example, today I started draining pool at local Y using a siphon. Pays good, and isn't difficult to do. Tomorrow, I will be cleaning gutters and fixing leaking sink. Thursday, we will replace siding on a chimney.

[John T Barker]

I suppose you guys are right. It's probably not a good idea to make a job out of your hobby.

Here's the answer. You gave up on the idea in a little over two hours because of what a few people said. I went off on my own and started selling pieces for good money (including a grandfather's clock for $7000 in 1990's) but had to give up on it because the logistics problems, not the lack of market. If you have a passion for this I would say you should try it. What is the worst that could happen, you aren't going to starve to death, are you?

[Tim Bridge]

Here's the answer. You gave up on the idea in a little over two hours because of what a few people said. I went off on my own and started selling pieces for good money (including a grandfather's clock for $7000 in 1990's) but had to give up on it because the logistics problems, not the lack of market. If you have a passion for this I would say you should try it. What is the worst that could happen, you aren't going to starve to death, are you?

I think I won't commit to this full time, but I may try to sell some of my work from time to time.
The fact is that I'm not very fast with my builds so my cost per item would be too high for resale.

Unless I get into production I will never be able to make money at this.
I was just seeing if it was possible, but I'm afraid that if I turn my hobby into a job then it won't be as satisfying to me. The woodworking for me is very therapeutic.

[Ken Grant]

The woodworking for me is very therapeutic.

Running a business is a lot of things, but therapeutic is not one of them!

Here is some advice on starting a business I read a while back and thought is was worth writing down.

Passion first, business plan second, full speed ahead third. Any other order or skipping a step is a recipe for disaster.

[Scott Cenicola]

I've found even doing occasional commisioned projects can cause more stress than I like in my woodworking. My last project was at the end of 2015. I set clear time line expectations with the client and still ended up being rushed to get it "done for christmas". I ended up producing a project that didnt meet my standards. I'm a little leary getting another project and have spent more time recently on home and shop projects. I like supporting my habit, but getting paid for it takes some of the fun out of it. Like the op, I work too slow to even consider a full time go at it. I hope to do commisioned ww part time in retirement, a mere 20 years from now.

[Ryan Mooney]

I've found even doing occasional commisioned projects can cause more stress than I like in my woodworking.

My experience has been that commission work is a lot harder than spec work because you don't just have to make what's in your head, you have to figure out what's in someone else head and make that. To top it off they usually don't know what they want until they see it and decide that whatever it ended up being wasn't actually it. It seems like people who are successful doing commission work are 2 parts psychic, 2 parts therapist and 1 part woodworker. I know there are folks who are successful at it and my hats off to them.

The people I see who seem to be making some sort of a living at wwing as a full time gig seem to fall into primairly two camps.

The more lucrative bits (for some value of lucrative) seems to be if you can find a niche market and market the hell out of it. Usually this means making the same 3-4 things in volume, optimizing production, increasing volume, spending most of your time on sales, hiring people to do the repetitive work, expanding to another couple of items, having them flop and then going bankrupt because you over extended yourself (ok maybe that's a bit pessimistic :rolleyes: the trick is clearly to avoid the last two steps). If you walk into a shop you can usually spot these guys because they tend to have a more limited tooling set focused around cranking out their specific product line as fast and efficiently as possible.

The other folks are the generalists who are half custom cabinet maker, half handyman, half bespoke furniture, half of half a dozen other things as well. They usually tend to drive a beat up old van and have a shop full of mixed use and ageing but well loved machinery.

[john lawson]

As a professional woodworker once told a group of our Guild members, "woodworking is a good way to make a hard living or a hard way to make a good living".

[Mark Patoka]

About 10 years ago I started selling some of my items so I could afford to buy tools and it turned into a small business. I still have a full-time job so I only have nights and weekends available (which are also busy with life activities) but when orders come in, it means personal projects get delayed (I haven't even touched my lathe in over 4 years). Granted, my hobby business is not required to put food on my table but I also realized I don't want to do woodworking like that full-time.

I have a niche market focused primarily on the military and if I wanted to broaden my business I could but based on my profit margins, it means I would have to produce 30-50,000 units per year to maintain my current lifestyle/income level that my day-job provides. That would require a production factory setting and no thanks. Also take into account that as a sole proprietor business, you have to pay additional taxes, self-employment taxes, insurance, etc that you probably don't have to now which drives up your gross income requirements. If you are looking to go the flea market or craft show route, that means you will be sitting idle during those times when you would rather be in the shop producing.

Don't let the above discourage you but maybe try something on a small scale just to get the feel for what's involved. Many people start very successful businesses out of their garage (i.e Shark Tank entrepreneurs) and woodworkers can, but it usually means a lot of work and at some point you may not be making the items yourself, but hiring it out, and find yourself running a business, which you are, and you'll find that you no longer desire to be engaged in what was your hobby.

[Andrew Hughes]

That's a good saying John,I like it. How about the saying behind every great woodworker is a woman with a good job.
Now back to the topic.I do like commission work.Its most rewarding when I am asked to make something special that brings out the best in me.And I have never falling short.I don't like working from measured drawing.
If exceptional work is normal for you then there might be a chance.
just don't try to be a perfectionist.

[Simon MacGowen]

It is possible but unlikely.

Christian Becksvoort, a well-known American furniture maker, advises people like you considering a switch to making furniture for a living to KEEP their day-time job while trying out a new career venture.

It looks nice to build things and sell them but the reality is the market is very small for fine furniture unless you are well known like Michael Fortune, the late Sam Maloof and whatnot.

Woodworking is a great hobby but not a job -- for most skilled or not-so-skilled woodworkers. By the way, you will get bored sooner or later if it is a job, and not a pastime, that you have to worry about revenue and expenses.

Simon

[John T Barker]

As a professional woodworker once told a group of our Guild members, "woodworking is a good way to make a hard living or a hard way to make a good living".

I'd remind you that that is one man who may or may not be a good businessman.

[Brian W Smith]

Probably shouldn't respond,partially because it's coming from a jaundiced,professional POV,and quite possibly because of the difficulty of even putting it in words...

When you can define "scale",and what it implies WRT design...then we can talk.Until that time,my only advise would be more study.We have a dedicated research library that I'd say is N of 75%...read that to imply we spend on avg. a hundred a month on used books,coming from a long generational line of WW's,and still trying to learn.

So can it be done?Sure...is it easy?Could be.

Work on your scale.Just sayin.

[Todd Mason-Darnell]

The Wood Whisper had an interesting blog or video entry on making a living as a wood worker I saw awhile back:

In summary, he said, 'Don't quit your day job. If you can't make money on it in your spare time, you are unlikely to make money on it full time". He also does point out that he does not make money from wood working, but from selling stuff on line, personal appearances, etc.

[David T gray]

what do we consider making a living ???

[Erik Loza]

...He also does point out that he does not make money from wood working, but from selling stuff on line, personal appearances, etc.

Over the years, Minimax and SCM Group have paid "woodworking celebrities" for things like appearances at trade shows, appearing in videos and blogs, etc. In fact, there is an active, well-known ww'er who has a syndicated TV program that SCM did something like this with, recently. I have two observations about this and will preface them by saying that the guys I have met, who do this sort of thing, have all been real nice guys and that I applaud their business savvy.

First, the guys I know who did/do this probably make all their income from endorsements, sponsorships, etc. In fact, I would venture a guess they don't actually sell ww'ing projects any more. Just like I don't think you can buy a cake from the Barefoot Contessa.

Next, the dollar figure that was mentioned to me, to have a Minimax product used in a television program, was SHOCKING. And I don't say that lightly. Clearly, media is not my business but the numbers were astounding to me.

Erik

[Yonak Hawkins]

Broaden your thoughts on making money from woodworking. Not all woodworkers are selling their stuff at flea markets, on-line or commission work. Consider manufacturing in your garage.

[Brad Barnhart]

Good thread, with lots of good advice. Just to show you an example of the inevitable, I drove OTR all my life. The trucking business was all I knew. In 2007, My Dr told in his own sweet way, that if I didn't slow down, bad things were in my future. Then & there, my bride decided I needed a hobby. Long story short, we started buying woodworking tools. I started checking out books on the tools & wood from the library, taking them with me on the truck to read. Hell, I'd never been around any of these tools! In the trucking business, we don't use them! In turn, the more I learned, the more tools we began to purchase. Two years later, I come in off the truck w/viral meningitis. Spent 8 months in the hospital, lost the use of both legs & partial use of my left hand. I had to learn to walk again, w/intense therapy. I was no longer able to drive, & no longer able to support my family. After 14 months of therapy, my Dr released me to do light work, but no driving. I was determined to go back to trucking. Two months later, my old boss put me back to work driving. I drove just over a year, doing occasional woodworking when I was home. Soon, we lost my father & my nephew two weeks apart. I had a seizure in the truck, wrecked the truck, & my trucking career was over for good due to health issues. I wasn't even 50 yet! After that, a major back surgery, & bouts w/depression, I'm here to tell you, don't tell me IT can't be done! Yes, I'm living on a fixed income, & have been for sometime, but, had it not been for my brides' idea of a woodworking hobby, I honestly don't know how we'd of hung on. We were able to make cedar chests, toy boxes, etc. to keep money flowing. As time went on, in the last 20 years, I've perfected the scroll saw, & w/some furniture repair, & other woodworking, I don't get rich at it, but I make enough to somewhat supplement our income. Especially when things are tight. Please don't misunderstand, what I've told you is not a sob story, or looking for sympathy. The main idea is, IF you want something bad enough, whether out of need, curiosity, whatever, YOU can figure out how to make it work for you!!! We make several craft shows within 150 miles of home, have several orders for scroll work, with other woodworking, we just keep pluggin' along. The next thing is, I'm self taught. I've learned everything I know about woodworking on my own. And no, before you ask, I've never lost a minutes interest in it! Woodworking has been very therapeutic for me, not to mention meeting new friends, learning new things, & just enjoying it to the limit! Take it for what it's worth, my friend, as said, if possible, don't give up your main source of income! But, IF you want to pursue this, research, listen, make an honest effort to gain new ideas & experience, be honest with yourself, & do not turn your back on your support! My wife has been my inspiration through all of this! The sky is the limit! Just my .02/worth. God Bless, & good luck!

[Irvin Gomez]

Is it possible to make a living woodworking out of my garage making small projects and selling them at flea markets or other places?

I have a bandsaw, router table, planer, miter saw, table saw, spindle sander, drill press and an assortment of hand tools.

I am tired or working for electrical contractors and would like to go into a new direction.

Odds are whatever you make is being made better, faster and much cheaper by a factory somewhere. Not trying to sound negative, but that's our reality: look at the thousands of excellent small products selling for very little money at Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, Ikea, etc.

[rudy de haas]

I have several friends who try to make a living from wood working. One is extremely good, one pretty average but neither makes enough for the family to live on.

In looking at their problems (and I made my living as a systems management consultant) I came to the conclusion that woodworking is a rewarding activity, but not generally a profitable one.

Nevertheless there are opportunities in niche markets. For example, I think that partnerships offering restoration services constitute a viable opportunity today: get a group together in which you have serious expertise in the key areas of sales and management, woodwork, interior finish (paints, wallpaper, curtains, carpets etc), and flooring - then add some on-demand business partners (e.g. electricians) for additional skills and labor - and go after fire, flood, vandalismm, and crime scene repair jobs. Lots of business, little nickel and dime bitching by the payor, but you do have to be able to placate and manage the homeowners and other injured parties.

[Robert Engel]

Here's the answer. You gave up on the idea in a little over two hours because of what a few people said. I went off on my own and started selling pieces for good money (including a grandfather's clock for $7000 in 1990's) but had to give up on it because the logistics problems, not the lack of market. If you have a passion for this I would say you should try it. What is the worst that could happen, you aren't going to starve to death, are you?
Got a chuckle out of this one.
I'd like to know where the market is for $7k Grandfather clocks.
Citing one example of a huge payoff doesn't make quitting your job a good choice.

As for starving to death, I was being figurative. J
Before this happens they lose their house, their car, and zero out the bank account.
Hopefully they figure out they shouldn't have quit their day job.

Taking the plunge is daring and brave for the single unattached man, but for one with other humans depending on them, its stupid.

I'm not saying don't chase your dreams, just don't do it with your head in the clouds.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I think there's huge difference between making MONEY woodworking, and making a LIVING woodworking. One is fun, makes you some money, and the latter is work, and if you don't sell, you don't eat. I make a little money selling stuff, certainly not a living, I'd be dead by now. BUT if you find that little line of products that sell well, you certainly can make THAT into a living. I do know several people (well, 2) that are solely wood workers and work alone. DON'T get discouraged. Start your business, but as many have said, don't quit your day job. And, if you do find that market for $7K grandfather clocks that sell, you can make a living at that.
On the other hand, I picked up a few barely used tools from a guy who had built a fully set up shop intending to start a guitar building business. Never made anything..... Took a luthier class and realized it takes weels/months to complete a guitar. Had to take huge losses on tooling from planes to a Sawstop table saw. 2 band saws, drum sander. This guy had everything..... I would not do that method either. Buy as you make some money.

[John T Barker]

Got a chuckle out of this one.
I'd like to know where the market is for $7k Grandfather clocks.
Citing one example of a huge payoff doesn't make quitting your job a good choice.


Share what caused the chuckle. Can I help explain what I was trying to say or do you just want to continue chuckling? The market was Main Line Pennsylvania...i.e., western Philadelphia suburbs. A good combination of furniture history, history and money. At the time I sold that clock for $7000 the people I had worked for were selling it for about $10,000. Not many of the guys still doing the work don't put their prices online but they are up there. Good work, mortise and tenon and hand cut dovetails and a good number of people still doing it. I worked for an outfit called Irion Company and a number of the people I worked with are making a go of woodworking, a few incorporating teaching in their business ventures. Oh, and their were other good sized projects.

[Cody Colston]

Certainly there are people making a decent living doing woodworking. Custom made fine furniture can be lucrative but you have to have the talent to build it and the clientele that will buy it...the upper 1% of the population, generally.

If building and selling craft items, just ask yourself how many $20 items you will have to build and sell at flea markets and craft shows to earn enough to live on. Here's an example: $50k per year would equal 208.3 sale items at $20 apiece every month...and that's gross. Taxes, insurance, overhead all take a big wet bite out of that $50k gross income.

I'm not trying to be discouraging but I'd suggest keeping the day job and doing what you suggested as a supplement to your income. It will at least cover some nice tools every now and then.

[Rich Riddle]

Great way to ruin a perfectly good hobby. :)

David
Exactly. Steve Mickley found out when he opened Hardwood Lumber and More. A great woodworker but it ruined the hobby for him.

[Robert Engel]

Share what caused the chuckle. Can I help explain what I was trying to say or do you just want to continue chuckling? The market was Main Line Pennsylvania...i.e., western Philadelphia suburbs. A good combination of furniture history, history and money. At the time I sold that clock for $7000 the people I had worked for were selling it for about $10,000. Not many of the guys still doing the work don't put their prices online but they are up there. Good work, mortise and tenon and hand cut dovetails and a good number of people still doing it. I worked for an outfit called Irion Company and a number of the people I worked with are making a go of woodworking, a few incorporating teaching in their business ventures. Oh, and their were other good sized projects.
What tickled me is advocating taking a very serious financial plunge based on your own very unique opportunity, one he certainly can't build a business model on.
This is why I said what I said.

No one is saying you can't make a living in ww'ing all they're saying is "don't quit your day job", that's all. Sorry if I offended.

[jim mills]

Tim. Don't let these boo-hoo'ers discourage you. It's a common theme on this forum. I can cite several success stories, depending on your definition of success. Mine is one of them. I quit a successful career in the medical field to pursue my dreams, and haven't looked back. After 10 years, I still cant wait to get to "work" in the morning.
I know a couple locals that started in their garage with a chop saw, some old palates, and a collection of acrylic paint from the hobby lobby. They moved twice into rentals, and now own a stand alone building, and can't make their product fast enough. It's junk in my mind...but cool junk, and people love it.
I know someone else that started out making soap in their basement not too long ago. They now employ several dozen people and are a huge success story selling $7 bars of soap. Who'd a thunk it?

Find your nitch, start small, get it out there, and see what happens. Nothing ventured, nothing gained...

[roger wiegand]

Very interesting thread. I was one of the early "don't quit your day job just yet" posters, but I've been reconsidering. IF you have the passion and IF you don't have a family to support then there is much to be said for giving it a shot. You will never know otherwise. I know a reasonable number of people who make an OK living woodworking. None of them are going to get rich, but they live a life they enjoy, doing something they (most days) love. That's worth a lot. They are also, at this point building very pricey custom furniture and have long waiting lists of projects in the queue. Each of the folks now in that situation spent a decade or more working 80 hours a week for starvation wages perfecting their craft and building a customer base. They all did it out of passion-- they couldn't stand not woodworking. It is asserted that to get really good at something (almost anything) you need to put in 20,000 hours of serious practice. That's consistent with my experience of becoming a competent scientist, and being perhaps a quarter way through that number of hours seriously working on woodworking, a reasonable guess as to what it might take there too.

There are also woodworking-related jobs that can help ease the transition. Around here, for example, carpenters with the skills and interest to do competent old house restoration work are in heavy demand and command a very decent wage. Most of the guys I know who do that are also building skills and a business in custom furniture-grade built-ins and freestanding furniture.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

Another woodworking related option is commercial cabinet shops. Not a lot of "real" woodworking, but that depends on the specific shop. Some shops specialize in veneer and wood millwork, while other do more plastic laminate. If your ambitious, and have some skills, it's not hard to make $50K a year. If you're really good, and work in a busy shop, you can make a lot more with overtime pay.

[Martin Wasner]

A greenhorn pulling down $50k a year without side jobs and little to no overtime? Very unlikely.

I live in the weeds, but an experienced bench hand would be hard pressed to make much over $20/hr here. Working 55 hour weeks gets you $65k per year.

It ticks me off how little cabinetmakers make. Short of excavators nobody has as big of a capital investment. There's knowledge and skill that I feel aren't easy to achieve compared to electricians or plumbers and the skills are incredibly diverse. Yet we make squat because the market won't support a decent wage in the USA.

[john lawson]

I agree, go for it you are single. I attended a woodworking school in Maine for three months and as a part of our training we visited several one man shops of craftsman who were earning their living making furniture. One of the humorous sayings that I heard more than once was "the first requirement of a professional woodworker is to have a wife who has full benefits".

There is a reason that a lot of professional woodworkers share that humor.

[John Schweikert]

My advice would be to expand beyond just woodworking and add metal work. You do a few projects and the next thing you know everyone and their brother wants you to build something for them.

I've been a hobby woodworker since I was a teenager and now I'm 43. I've been a full time photographer since 1998. Once I started building a boat 4 years ago, house projects led to client projects being requested. I built out a sandwich shop inside a larger food area. Then built almost everything for a bar a few blocks from me which included many walnut tables, cedar curing room, steel and cedar bar back, walnut bar, game tables, outdoor eating bar from cedar and steel, douglas fir benches with steel bases and the list goes on. Then the restaurant across the street from that wanted a steel and mahogany bench and also steel parking bollards. I've built store signs from wood and metal. Welding and steel tools along with woodworking tools opens up huge opportunities. It's what people want as materials, wood AND steel.

I added a plasma cutter recently which is helping tremendously to expand what I want to build in addition to what others want me to build.

I will continue to be a commercial photographer, but I have no desire for that to consume all my time anymore. Building things is a wonderful creative outlet.

Currently I'm building a 12ft high vertical carousel out of steel and BB shelves, huge chain and sprockets to hold 170 beer steins.

Start building things that other people want and the ball will start rolling. Fulfill the desires of others and you'll have plenty of projects.

[jack duren]

You can make good money as a cabinet maker.
You can make good money as a Commercial shop.
You can make money as a furniture maker.

Every shop does different work and pays differently.

I lost my helper last week. Now I need an apprentice. These are hard to find. It's roughly 15-17 hr. I need a cabinet maker,etc that understands how tools and wood works. Actually hard to find.

[Rich Riddle]

If you were closer to Polo, MO I know a 58 year old who makes them like an artist but he can't do it full time any longer. Good luck on your search.
You can make good money as a cabinet maker.
You can make good money as a Commercial shop.
You can make money as a furniture maker.

Every shop does different work and pays differently.

I lost my helper last week. Now I need an apprentice. These are hard to find. It's roughly 15-17 hr. I need a cabinet maker,etc that understands how tools and wood works. Actually hard to find.

[jack duren]

I agree, go for it you are single. I attended a woodworking school in Maine for three months and as a part of our training we visited several one man shops of craftsman who were earning their living making furniture. One of the humorous sayings that I heard more than once was "the first requirement of a professional woodworker is to have a wife who has full benefits".

There is a reason that a lot of professional woodworkers share that humor.

I agree. I was raised in Florence,Al. I wouldn't starve as a woodworker there buy you might not enjoy the place you work at. All I have to do is look at Craigslist in Florence and see why I won't return.

I have on occasion called on a few of the cabinet shops down in Florence. They ask...... what do I know how to do? and I reply.... Everything. Now my question, what do you pay? They say $15 hr if you don't need guidance. I reply ..What kind of broom you have? They say Why" I say.....Because that's all I'm going to do all day for $15 hr...Click.................

[jack duren]

Thx... There's guys around her but tend to get discouraged when you tell them to build something without nails and wood putty:confused:

[mark mcfarlane]

Is it possible to make a living woodworking out of my garage making small projects and selling them at flea markets or other places?

I have a bandsaw, router table, planer, miter saw, table saw, spindle sander, drill press and an assortment of hand tools.

I am tired or working for electrical contractors and would like to go into a new direction.

Tim, there has been a lot of good advice here, ranging from 'don't do it' to 'go for it'. Both viewpoints are correct. One aspect to consider is how you personally respond to a very difficult challenge, hardship and pressure. Do you make a plan, knuckle down, and push through it no matter what (bullheaded), or do you work hard for a while, get frustrated, tend to blame others, and move on to something else? Think back through your history and be honest. Can you stay motivated for several years of hard times, while building a business? Can you quickly change your business plan when the market doesn't match your original vision?

Successful entrepreneurs are the ones who never take 'no' or 'can't do' as an answer and take personal responsibility for everything that happens in their life. They morph to become what they need to become to be successful.

I think the best advice so far has been: 1) don't go into debt, and 2) keep your day job, but try to start making money building things out of wood and building up a list of resellers or clients. Keep very accurate accounting records of the wood business: wood and hardware costs, expendable supplies and equipment costs, depreciation of equipment, sales revenue, time spent to build each item sold, time and gas spent selling each item,.... Then figure out how much you are really making per hour. You'll learn a lot in the first 2-3 years, hone your wood skills and market knowledge, and be better prepared to know if this is really what you want to do or if it sucked all the fun out of a favorite pastime.

I always support the dreamer, but you need to be a dreamer who can plan, follow through, and work hard, not just an idea guy who runs out of steam quickly.

[Ron Teti]

I haven't read through the entire thread here so if these suggestions have been mentioned already I dot know.

My advice to the OP, yes you can make a living woodworking, however you must be flexible. That meaning be more like a finish Carp than a furniture maker/ cabinet maker. Yes you can build those items to but you need flexibility.

Make/Hang custom doors, custom mouldings, custom crown moulding ,custom gates , Outdoor Projects out door/ indoor custom bars etc all sorts of various wood work oppurtunitiesare out there. You have to be open for them.

To be specialised in say furniture making and cabinet making only is tough to compete against the big boys. Average customer looks at price ( think HOME Despot or Blowes , IKEA,for kitchen cabinets as a standard)

Versatility and being creative and flexible .

At least thats my plan.

Also having a niche is helpful to

[Yonak Hawkins]

...Then figure out how much you are really making per hour ....

I agree with what mark says except, instead of figuring how much you make per hour, I've found it's more usable to figure how much you make per week, week after week. That way you don't have to keep hourly tallies and decide, "Was this work related or wasn't it ?" At the end of the week, or month, if you've made enough to live on, that tells you what you need to know. I cost out all my jobs by the week.

[jack duren]

There's a lot more to this trade than making a few pieces of furniture,cabinets,crafts,etc.

[Brian Sommers]

I agree with what mark says except, instead of figuring how much you make per hour, I've found it's more usable to figure how much you make per week, week after week. That way you don't have to keep hourly tallies and decide, "Was this work related or wasn't it ?" At the end of the week, or month, if you've made enough to live on, that tells you what you need to know. I cost out all my jobs by the week.

I like this, but to make sure I'm understanding what you are saying. For an example, lets say I need to gross $1000/wk. So this week I make 4 items, I would then sell them for $250 each? or ??? Could you go into more details?

[jack duren]

I like this, but to make sure I'm understanding what you are saying. For an example, lets say I need to gross $1000/wk. So this week I make 4 items, I would then sell them for $250 each? or ??? Could you go into more details?

It doesn't always work like that...

[Tom M King]

What you live on is profit. Gross doesn't matter much. I would say start with needing to make a profit of $1000 a week, and figure from there. That wouldn't really be much of a living though. You still have to pay taxes, including self-employment taxes out of gross profit. It would be safer to say you need a minimum of 2000 gross profit a week.

[Nathan Callender]

If I were going into business to build things out of sheet goods, I'd seriously look at a cnc table. Or, more generally, look at equipment in a very different light than a hobbiest would.

[jack duren]

What you live on is profit. Gross doesn't matter much. I would say start with needing to make a profit of $1000 a week, and figure from there. That wouldn't really be much of a living though. You still have to pay taxes, including self-employment taxes out of gross profit. It would be safer to say you need a minimum of 2000 gross profit a week.

$1000-2-3 it doesn't really matter. If he doesn't know the work he's better off doing it for a hobby and making a few bucks....

[John Sincerbeaux]

I think to make appreciable money in woodworking, as a one-man shop, you need not only to be a craftsman, but an artist too. I know several professional furniture makers that do pretty well, but everyone of them are extremely artistic and the pieces they create are Art forms. Because of that, their work is unique and most importantly.... Highly desired. Also, their client base is very exclusive and normally have several month waiting lists. There are several luthiers in this country that have 2-3 year waiting lists and charge thousands for a guitar. Regardless what you produce, you have to catch the attention of clients that have rediculous discretionary income. The good news is there are a ton of people in this country that will buy only the best and won't even blink at the price.

[Yonak Hawkins]

I like this, but to make sure I'm understanding what you are saying. For an example, lets say I need to gross $1000/wk. So this week I make 4 items, I would then sell them for $250 each? or ??? Could you go into more details?

Yes, sort of like that. The way I do it : I figure how many widgets I can make in a week (considering part of the week will be spent getting materials, marketing, etc (except I, myself, have my business set up where I don't have to do marketing, because I sell to a re-seller, or another manufacturer). I have the advantage of knowing how much I can sell a widget for to start with. If you're selling retail, you can figure that out by looking on-line or by going to craft fairs that sell what you want to make and see the going rate. So, let's say I can sell a widget for $250. I know I can make four a week (maybe I can make 10 in two weeks). That's $1000 (or $1250), subtract out expenses, and decide if I can live on the remainder.

[John T Barker]

What tickled me is advocating taking a very serious financial plunge based on your own very unique opportunity, one he certainly can't build a business model on.
This is why I said what I said.

No one is saying you can't make a living in ww'ing all they're saying is "don't quit your day job", that's all. Sorry if I offended.

Thanks for that. I don't think my situation was unique, to be honest. My employer, Irion Company Furnituremakers, made a very good living in this area making 18th century reproductions and antique restoration. Many of the people that left the company did well on their own, some very well. I found clients quickly, was used to talking to clients (I was lead salesman for Irion) and got more than a few high dollar pieces. I worked in a garage too and found that there were some advantages to a one man shop but many disadvantages as well.

I think that part of the problem with this discussion is a lack of perspective. How many people here know what the OP can and wants to make? How many are willing to work for only $30-40,000 a year? How many have ever given pro ww a try? Giving advice about a subject you know little about and have never tried is easy but...not worth much.

[Jim Andrew]

The way I was able to have a woodworking career, and make a living at it was to build houses. Any time I had the extra time I built the cabinets. Got so I did most of the carpentry work on the entire job. I was very good at math, and could do an estimate of the cost of a house in a couple evenings, and never lost money on a job over the 25 years I did build jobs.

[jack duren]

Thanks for that. I don't think my situation was unique, to be honest. My employer, Irion Company Furnituremakers, made a very good living in this area making 18th century reproductions and antique restoration. Many of the people that left the company did well on their own, some very well. I found clients quickly, was used to talking to clients (I was lead salesman for Irion) and got more than a few high dollar pieces. I worked in a garage too and found that there were some advantages to a one man shop but many disadvantages as well.

I think that part of the problem with this discussion is a lack of perspective. How many people here know what the OP can and wants to make? How many are willing to work for only $30-40,000 a year? How many have ever given pro ww a try? Giving advice about a subject you know little about and have never tried is easy but...not worth much.

"Giving advice about a subject you know little about and have never tried is easy but...not worth much"

Good luck with that one.
336692

[John T Barker]

"Giving advice about a subject you know little about and have never tried is easy but...not worth much"

Good luck with that one.


Since you are quoting me here I thought I would ask...what are you saying here please?

[jack duren]

Just giving you a hard time. You'll find professional or not the masses will post. I often wonder if it's because they read it some where, a gut feeling or it makes them feel important..

Making a living or dreaming of making a living as a woodworker seems to make everyone a pro on the subject.

[Kevin Jenness]

Be sure to watch this before quitting your day job; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBi4zroEj1w. If you do take the plunge, this one will help you to deal with your clients; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9hIXiM-yrY.

[Cody Colston]

You'll find professional or not the masses will post.

Right you are, and I did post. Any thread that asks for an opinion is always going to get a response from the masses. No actual knowledge or experience is required to express an opinion. I'm proof of that. :D:D:D

[Brian Holcombe]

I read a story of a Japanese blacksmith from the early 20th century who worked for his father. He put in a few hours for drinking money and didn't take the work too seriously until his father was hospitalized and he needed to earn a real living for his family.

His approach; if a customer was paying $100 for a product he would deliver them a $300 product. In each and every instance he was turning a customer into a client and getting their business for life.

Your work and the people who purchase it from you are your salesmen when you are not around. Either they're telling people not too bother or telling them to only deal with you.

Walk onto a sales floor and you will see the difference between people who can make six figures and people who can barely make a living all doing the same job for the same hours.

I've worked in sales for the past 8 years, my only requirement was pride in the products I sold, that enthusiasm would always carry over to the client. As a sole proprietor of a woodworking shop you will be a salesman who happens to woodwork, if you love the work and want them to have your best work then they see that.

The talent of men like George Nakashima and Sam Maloof that no one talks about is their ability to sell. When you watch interviews with Maloof what did he talk about? He talks about his interesting client stories, times when he went over and above for his clients and how much he loves to woodwork....that is a salesman.

[Keith Outten]

I've never discounted advice I have received from a hobby woodworker here as most have experience from their day jobs that is more often then not valuable. Lots of accountants, lawyers, engineers, and other businessmen and women here whose input has been much appreciated. Even woodworking topics can often bring excellent advice from the novice woodworkers as they often have a unique perspective and varied level of expertise in broad areas of the craft. I have picked up a ton of excellent shop tricks from people who were asking questions that got me thinking about the way I have been doing things for a long time...mine were not necessarily the most innovative ways to go about certain tasks.

[Pat Barry]

Is it possible to make a living woodworking out of my garage making small projects and selling them at flea markets or other places?

I have a bandsaw, router table, planer, miter saw, table saw, spindle sander, drill press and an assortment of hand tools.

I am tired or working for electrical contractors and would like to go into a new direction.
You have the basic tools I suppose, but do you know how to use them efficiently in order to make profitable small projects enough to make a living now? I don't know but I doubt it, not because of you or your skills, but because small projects mean small $$ value and limited profit potential. Ie : lots of labor, probably expensive material = low margin -- low margin means you need high volume -- high volume means you have to work even more. I think this is a no win situation. You need to stress value and quality at a low volume. You need a niche that is unique and special in some way. You need customers with disposable income. You need time to develop no matter what. If you had asked if its possible to make a living doing woodworking, then the answer is certainly yes, given the above. Just get started, don't quit your day job, find a niche, aim for the high value market, and give things time to develop. Maybe in 5 years time if things go well you could be there

[jack duren]

Right you are, and I did post. Any thread that asks for an opinion is always going to get a response from the masses. No actual knowledge or experience is required to express an opinion. I'm proof of that. :D:D:D

It doesn't really matter. I work for a furniture company 40hrs a week but have my own shop to build the things that are interest to me. I worked full time out of my shop building cabinet for contractors for several years but got caught in the crash.

It's been mentioned many times."Don't turn your hobby into a job" The job is fun at times but its still a job. What I do in my shop is always fun. But when i worked in my shop as a cabinet maker it wasn't always.

I love woodworking. I love fishing and poker playing but the woodworking pays better;)...

[Mark Gibney]

Great thread. Love those youtube videos.

[Martin Wasner]

I think the biggest problem here that Jack is pointing out, is the illusion that your gross income is remotely close to your take home. If you can turn a 10% margin you're doing pretty well. You want to take home $50k? You're going to have to net over $70 to pay the taxes. Let's be optimistic and say you have a 20% margin. You're going to have to bump three hundred and fifty thousand dollars out the door to get that $50k.

[James W Glenn]

Just get started, don't quit your day job, find a niche, aim for the high value market, and give things time to develop. Maybe in 5 years time if things go well you could be there
This is good advise.

What I would add, is that it can be very helpful to have a job in a related trade that feeds you side jobs, in a way that is mutually beneficial to you, the client, and your primary employer.

[Jebediah Eckert]

I think the biggest problem here that Jack is pointing out, is the illusion that your gross income is remotely close to your take home. If you can turn a 10% margin you're doing pretty well. You want to take home $50k? You're going to have to net over $70 to pay the taxes. Let's be optimistic and say you have a 20% margin. You're going to have to bump three hundred and fifty thousand dollars out the door to get that $50k.


I'm not saying this is wrong Martin, I'm just asking because to me it seems off? I don't own and business and never have.......but for the OP to make a living out of his garage expecting $50k a year or so he has to sell $350k in woodworking?

[Phillip Mitchell]

Hmm, not exactly. If you have a 10% profit margin, then that doesn't necessarily mean that your profit is the only money you have that's take home. If you are turning a profit (at 10% or whatever %) then that's where your true "profit" is, but if you're doing the math right then part of the expense column is your actual labor. So you would be making _$/hr or day, week, etc at a certain labor rate included as part of your expenses. Now what that actually is depends on many factors and how much labor actually goes into what you're making/selling. It could be $5/hr when the math is all said and done....or more hopefully.

What comes from Gross - (minus) Expenses is your actual profit. In many cases, some of profit that would go back into the business each year as "re-investing" so that you could still see some benefit from it, be able to write more stuff off taxes, and not have to pay taxes on all of your profit. Or that could be your vacation fund, or whatever because as a sole business owner, there isn't anybody giving you paid sick or vacation time that you accumulate at the end of the year.

[Mike Henderson]

Is it possible to make a living woodworking out of my garage making small projects and selling them at flea markets or other places?

I have a bandsaw, router table, planer, miter saw, table saw, spindle sander, drill press and an assortment of hand tools.

I am tired or working for electrical contractors and would like to go into a new direction.
My answer is "No", you can't make a living doing woodworking in your garage. If it was possible to do so, a lot of woodworkers would be doing it.

Whatever it is you make, you also have to sell it, and that takes time. Many people have tried doing small things and selling them at fairs but very few have succeeded, and most of those buy stuff made in China (or some other place) and resell it. You just can't make those small things as cheaply as the factories can.

And if you make your stuff, you'll be competing with the guy in the next booth who's buying his stuff.

Mike

[Martin Wasner]

I'm not saying this is wrong Martin, I'm just asking because to me it seems off? I don't own and business and never have.......but for the OP to make a living out of his garage expecting $50k a year or so he has to sell $350k in woodworking?


Pretty close. I'm pulling this stuff from memory, but taking capital investments and taxes out of the equation I could've taken home almost 23% of my gross last year, or a bit less than $60k. Last year we did $255k gross, and I paid myself $3500, and I only had to work about 3000 hours to make that happen. The rest of that profit I spend on equipment, so hopefully this year I can be more efficient, and make more money with less effort. Granted, I will say that I was aggressive in my spending, but I had cash on hand, and a lot of good opportunities presented themselves. You should spend money on improvements whenever you can afford it. It's money well spent.


Working out of a garage, your overhead is going to be significantly lower, but a small space can only produce so much and if he is growing, he will outgrow that 1000 square feet very quickly. I've outgrown my space many times over. For the 2500 sq/ft that I'm currently leasing I spend $16,200 a year just on the floor space. Another $7000 on insurance, (liability, coverage for the tools, product in transit, a trailer, and two work vehicles). My electric bill seems low compared to most places, but thats about $2500 a year. Heat costs me another $1200 a year. So I spend almost $27,000 a year before I've even bought a single scrap of wood. That's 10.5% of last years gross. My shop is in a very small town, in the middle of nowhere. I could easily be paying more than double that for a better location.

My cabinets work out where about 40% of the cost is material and hardware. Going off of last years numbers, thats $102,000. Which sounds about right.

I spent I think $4,000 on fuel last year. The company pays for my commute too, which is a nice benefit. But that's another 1.5%

Labor last year was about another $26,000. I had one contract employee last year and he started in about June. There goes another 10%

That all adds up to about $217,000, or 85%. Like I said, I'm just running off of loose numbers from memory. Pretty easy to spend another $40k on other services. ie, sharpening, tool repairs, turnings, etc. We don't do any finishing in house. I don't have enough to justify a full time finisher, or enough space to dedicate to finishing, and most of my stuff, the finishing is handled by the builder. Either done on site, or I deliver it to a finisher. I easily spent $15k on finishing last year though for the small amount that I had to deal with. It's also really hard to justify putting something in a lathe and expecting to make money at it when I can drop off a blank and pay a local guy $15 per to crank a post out and it takes him five minutes on a cnc lathe. That's not a huge expense for me, but it's there.


This is a very capital intense business. You have to spend a lot to make very little. Welcome to the real world.

[Jebediah Eckert]

Thanks, makes sense.

[John T Barker]

This is a very capital intense business. You have to spend a lot to make very little. Welcome to the real world.

I learned to make furniture while working for a guy in SE Pa. He employed about 20 guys when I was there but had started out smaller. He always whined about expenes but from everything I could see he was making a good bit of dough. He sold 18th century repros in an area that was rich in history, money and people willing to buy well made pieces, some not really understanding what they were buying. The company had highs and lows like many. People came and went and from what I can tell many of the past employees have kept their hands in woodworking and are successful. There were competitors to this business that could probably tell similar stories. My point is that I THINK an attempt to be a successful woodworker, or restaurantuer, or shoe store owner is only as good as the attempt. There is a right way and wrong way, things one should do and not do, locations that work better than others, etc. Some people are successful in this business and it doesn't always take a huge investment.

[John T Barker]

And if you make your stuff, you'll be competing with the guy in the next booth who's buying his stuff.

Mike

It might be worth remembering that there are craft fairs and shows where people selling stuff made in China would not be allowed in. There are customers that don't want some piece of Chinese made garbage but look for well made crafts.

[ron david]

it would be interesting how many here singularly make their income from woodworking without pensions to subsidize themselves. there is a lot of speculation of what could be. unless you step in those shoes it is hard to know. there is quite a bit that can be said of some of the difficulties
I have been doing it now for 41 years. I have more than likely paid a price for it.the funny part of it I still enjoy doing it every day. I have never done any production work and I work out of commercial space.
ron

[Brad Barnhart]

Mr. Tom, I posted here earlier in your thread. I explained to you how my wife & got started. There are going to be slow times, just like anything else. But, you have to become willing to expand your business. Light furniture repair, maybe refinishing, whatever. This isn't something that's going to happen in just a few days. You've got to get your name out there, advertise, go to craft shows, local fairs, etc. Be willing to take on new jobs, & learn from them. Don't get stuck in the middle of making just a few things. You can still get great satisfaction from your woodworking by building other things besides bread boards! There is always someone needing something repaired, built, redone, etc. Start with the folks you work with. Put flyers up in & around your neighborhood. You can make good money at it, but for the time being, don't give up your day job, brother! Keep your chin up, & keep looking to the future.

[Bob Glenn]

Historically, most woodworkers have never done very well financially. You'll be better off working for minimum wage.

[Martin Wasner]

Some people are successful in this business and it doesn't always take a huge investment.

There are certainly some smart cookies out there. I'm not one of them. I'm good at building cabinets. I'm okay at running a shop. I'm a horrible salesman. I'm not a great business guy, I make plenty of mistakes.

I disagree with not needing much of an investment. I've spent a lot more on tools than on my house. I started with not much, but those early days were really hard and my capabilities for what I could build and how quickly it could be produced were very limiting. Efficiency and repeatability only comes from equipment. The cheap stuff is too expensive, the good stuff is is hard to acquire when the funds are extremely limited. That was an expensive lesson for me. The more you grow, the deeper the rabbit hole becomes too. My next really big tool expense is over $100k with a smattering of stuff in the $20k range. It's not a cheap business to get into

[Larry Edgerton]

Pretty close. I'm pulling this stuff from memory, but taking capital investments and taxes out of the equation I could've taken home almost 23% of my gross last year, or a bit less than $60k. Last year we did $255k gross, and I paid myself $3500, and I only had to work about 3000 hours to make that happen. The rest of that profit I spend on equipment, so hopefully this year I can be more efficient, and make more money with less effort. Granted, I will say that I was aggressive in my spending, but I had cash on hand, and a lot of good opportunities presented themselves. You should spend money on improvements whenever you can afford it. It's money well spent.


Working out of a garage, your overhead is going to be significantly lower, but a small space can only produce so much and if he is growing, he will outgrow that 1000 square feet very quickly. I've outgrown my space many times over. For the 2500 sq/ft that I'm currently leasing I spend $16,200 a year just on the floor space. Another $7000 on insurance, (liability, coverage for the tools, product in transit, a trailer, and two work vehicles). My electric bill seems low compared to most places, but thats about $2500 a year. Heat costs me another $1200 a year. So I spend almost $27,000 a year before I've even bought a single scrap of wood. That's 10.5% of last years gross. My shop is in a very small town, in the middle of nowhere. I could easily be paying more than double that for a better location.

My cabinets work out where about 40% of the cost is material and hardware. Going off of last years numbers, thats $102,000. Which sounds about right.

I spent I think $4,000 on fuel last year. The company pays for my commute too, which is a nice benefit. But that's another 1.5%

Labor last year was about another $26,000. I had one contract employee last year and he started in about June. There goes another 10%

That all adds up to about $217,000, or 85%. Like I said, I'm just running off of loose numbers from memory. Pretty easy to spend another $40k on other services. ie, sharpening, tool repairs, turnings, etc. We don't do any finishing in house. I don't have enough to justify a full time finisher, or enough space to dedicate to finishing, and most of my stuff, the finishing is handled by the builder. Either done on site, or I deliver it to a finisher. I easily spent $15k on finishing last year though for the small amount that I had to deal with. It's also really hard to justify putting something in a lathe and expecting to make money at it when I can drop off a blank and pay a local guy $15 per to crank a post out and it takes him five minutes on a cnc lathe. That's not a huge expense for me, but it's there.


This is a very capital intense business. You have to spend a lot to make very little. Welcome to the real world.

I have gone the other way, from a large commercial building to a shop at home. The thing is the large operation is what paid for all my tools, and there is no way even at my skill level with the contacts that I have that a one man operation could pay for the tools I am working with. I do about $150-200K a year, and come out of it with about $50K, but... I already have all the tools.

If I had a son I would not encourage him to get into the business. But, three girls........

When the dust settles I am making about $20Hr on a $250K investment and about 48 hrs a week average. Not good numbers, but I do work at home. A home that is paid for, another huge consideration. I could not do it if I had a mortgage.

Martin, if you are getting your finish done that cheap, run with it as long as you can. Finish can seriously eat up some cash. I try to sub it out but around here they are insane. I just got a quote for $7400 for the project I am on, so I am doing it myself, unfortunately. I hate finish.

Pm me your address/number. When I get done with this job I need a road trip. Minnesota is a possibility. I have been working 12-14 hrs seven days a week for two months, need to wander. Deadline is Memorial day weekend, but I will probably be a couple of days late.

[Martin Wasner]

I have gone the other way, from a large commercial building to a shop at home. The thing is the large operation is what paid for all my tools, and there is no way even at my skill level with the contacts that I have that a one man operation could pay for the tools I am working with. I do about $150-200K a year, and come out of it with about $50K, but... I already have all the tools.

If I had a son I would not encourage him to get into the business. But, three girls........

When the dust settles I am making about $20Hr on a $250K investment and about 48 hrs a week average. Not good numbers, but I do work at home. A home that is paid for, another huge consideration. I could not do it if I had a mortgage.

Martin, if you are getting your finish done that cheap, run with it as long as you can. Finish can seriously eat up some cash. I try to sub it out but around here they are insane. I just got a quote for $7400 for the project I am on, so I am doing it myself, unfortunately. I hate finish.

Pm me your address/number. When I get done with this job I need a road trip. Minnesota is a possibility. I have been working 12-14 hrs seven days a week for two months, need to wander. Deadline is Memorial day weekend, but I will probably be a couple of days late.


My finishing isn't cheap, I just don't have to deal with much of it. Either the builder has their own finisher that I deliver to, or it's finished on site. My average job now, (not including little stupid stuff, the filler work), is about $40k in cabinets not including installation or finishing. Pretty easy to have a $10k paint bill on $40k worth of cabinets. I've got one builder that I just started sending whatever is natural out finished. Interiors, shelves, drawers, etc, and cabinets that aren't painted, which most are painted, get painted on site. Typically the island and the master bath are the only wood finish cabinets in the house with these guys. Even that I had a $4200 bill on it, and that was about an average sized job.


Will do.

[Robert Engel]

That all adds up to about $217,000, or 85%.

This is a very capital intense business. You have to spend a lot to make very little. Welcome to the real world.
You have to look at ways to cut expenses. You didn't mention that.

[Martin Wasner]

You have to look at ways to cut expenses. You didn't mention that.

And that's unique to each shop or business as well. My ways are to make operations faster and easier through equipment. Some people disagree. Whereas the shop next door to mine adds people to get things out the door. Another way that I try to save money is to buy as much as I possibly can in bulk to get a lower price, or to at least meet a minimum order for free shipping, whether that's material or hardware. I recently found out there's a significant price break when you buy more than one hundred sets of Blum slides from my hardware supplier. I think it was almost two dollars a set less than the previous price break which was about thirty sets and that was about a dollar fifty. It's a kick in the seeds when you forget to order something and you get socked with $12 in shipping. A few dollars here and there adds up, but if you can negotiate a lower price because you have been buying a certain amount of something that helps greatly too in the long run. Every dollar not spent is a dollar you don't have to earn again.

I recently had a cabinetmaker buddy who owns his own shop, in my shop. He laughed at the giant stack of staple boxes on the shelf. "Got enough staples?" "Nope, I'll use them eventually, free shipping when you buy two cases." I used to buy a couple of boxes at a time, now I try and buy at a price break.

I'm nowhere near big enough to buy hinges or slides by the pallet, but that would be nice if I had either the space or cash on hand to do so. I hate when people say "I work in a high end market", but I do work on more upscale houses. People that make way more than I do, who don't want corners cut. I build a fairly expensive cabinet, and there's plenty of places where I could eliminate both labor and material expense, but then I wouldn't have the same product that appeals to a certain clientele. For instance, if I spend $30k on and edgebander and could have a shelf that is edged and ready to go in 20 seconds, but I choose to glue, nail, clamp, and sand a solid wood edge onto every single shelf I build. I like the option of being able to route a profile into it, that 1-1/4" dropped wood edge adds some strength even if it is just left square edged. I could buy melamine for $20 a sheet, but I use white two face birch plywood for $69 a sheet. I could skip putting backs in. I could buy dovetail drawer boxes instead of fabbing my own, but they wouldn't be to my specification. But, I wouldn't have the product that I want to sell. There's no sense in building anything and selling it to people like me. People like me don't have any money.

Rework is a killer. Either when you screw up and have to build something again, or you've got a customer that is really good to you and you just eat it even though it's not your fault. You don't feel so bad when you're helping somebody out, but when it's all on you because of a typo or misinterpretation of a drawing or notes, that's frustrating. There's no getting entirely around it, just minimizing it. In a small shop it can be difficult to change gears and remake something. Especially when you're balls deep in the next project. A lot of that boils down to software. I've got a good drawing program, but when I bought it I couldn't afford the version that does cutlists for doors and drawers. I have to manually figure out the size of the door/drawer front/drawer, and enter the size into a spreadsheet that creates my cutlists for those items. Sometimes I figure the size wrong, sometimes I hit "2", when I wanted "3", and it gets missed. So a few doors get built incorrectly. That's expensive. The amount of screw ups I've had over the years would've easily paid for that software upgrade, but I keep stuffing money into other things. Eventually I will have to upgrade when it comes time to step into a cnc, but that's a ways down the road. So that cnc purchase will be a two fold increase in productivity. Speed, accuracy, and eliminating an idiot, (me).

[Albert Lee]

I dont think you can make money by selling at local fair/flea market.

I operate a hobby business in my workshop, I am in New Zealand, I sell across our tiny nation, our population is 4.5 million. I have a full time job.

I can honestly say I am not a woodworker - I dont concentrate on the details like how a proper woodworker suppose to do, I sell product to what the market wants.
I only make what I can replicate easily with minimum setting up time, I find a niche market and I concentrate in that. I dont make what everyone else makes.

I only started this within last 6-7 years, and got serious 3 years ago and invested about $50,000-$60,000 on my machinery and workshop electrical/ducting so far. am looking at setting up a proper spray booth at the moment.