Putting the bit in the brace

[Matthew Springer]

TL;DR: For a square taper shank, do you put the edges in the groove in the middle of the alligator jaws or just the flat-to-flat (ignore the grooves in the middle of the jaws)?

This is a stupid question but I'm honestly stumped because it seems not to be working either way in either brace. I bought one of those shiny, new TFWW square taper drill bits thinking to use them in my LV yellow/black brace or in my father in law's old stanley...

but they seem to be wildly off center from the centerline of the sweep in both braces. I'm pretty sure I'm doing it wrong, (will try to post photos tonight). disclaimer, I'm usually a diehard screw gun kinda fan, so this is new to me. I have most of the neander books, but this seems so basic no one bothered writing it down.

[Kenneth Fisher]

Mine won't fit if they're not seated with the edge in the groove. I have to open the jaws wide to fit the taper then close it down a bit, pull the bit up and tighten down completely. My brace is a Stanley from the 40s.

[Kirby Krieger]

The square taper fits in a matching hole deep in the chuck. The jaws hold the shaft a couple inches down from the squared end. Tightening the jaws should center the shank and keep the bit from falling out. Since the bit is round where the jaws meet it, it will go in the V grooves.

You can completely remove the outer shell of the chuck in order to best see the squared, tapered, hole.

Apologies if I've misunderstood what you are actually doing.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I open the jaws enough to take the bit. I then rotate the bit so the square part is oriented sort of diagonally to the chuck jaws. I then tighten the jaws a little so the bit is still loose, but not so loose that it will fall out. I then hold the brace with the bit pointing down at the ground, and gradually tighten the chuck until it is tight. This seems to let everything sort of naturally fit in where it wants to go, and I end up with the bit tight and straight.

If that doesn't work, you may want to take the chuck apart and clean and lubricate everything. You would be surprised how much dried up grease, and random foreign objects you find in some of the old braces. There might be something inside the chuck that is preventing everything from seating well, part of the chuck might be worn out or broken, and so on.

[Glen Canaday]

Like these guys said, diagonal with the edges in the grooves, go all the way in. The chuck jaws don't hold the square part, they hold the round shank. The square part snugs in deep. The bit should be well enough centered that way.

Edit for reason of caveat: I have a hollow auger that will only fit in one brace that I own, and that brace is a 12" with a monster-sized Fray chuck on it. It is very rare that someone would make a chuck with a hole too small to hold common bits, yet someone from Stearns saw fit to make an attachment that most braces won't hold. Even my 14" Millers Falls won't accept that chunky thing...

This is probably not your issue ;)

[Jim Koepke]

I have a hollow auger that will only fit in one brace that I own, and that brace is a 12" with a monster-sized Fray chuck on it. It is very rare that someone would make a chuck with a hole too small to hold common bits, yet someone from Stearns saw fit to make an attachment that most braces won't hold.

I have a Stearns hollow auger and it fits all my braces. I do have a Samson chuck that has a problem with some of the bigger bits.

Most of the time I open the jaws wide and place the auger bit all the way in. They seem to seat naturally. Then the chuck is wound tight and away it bores.

jtk

[Matthew Springer]

I disassembled the jaws last night, the one brace I thought was the LV was actually something stanley, taiwanese and recent (so no guarantee it's supposed to hold square shank bits).

I think looking at jaws that it's completely possible neither of these was designed for square shank bits. The older one is marked Miller Falls but I have no idea how old. It doesn't have a ratchet and the jaws are pretty banged up.

I think I need to just go buy a real brace.

https://goo.gl/photos/FedzUfKNftnTJox48

[Nicholas Lawrence]

If it is a Millers Falls, it should have a model number on it. If you go to "Old Tool Heaven" you can get a fair amount of information about that specific brace. It looks like you may have a basic model with an older "Barber" model chuck. I do not own a Barber chuck, but I have not seen a lot of junk with the Millers Falls name on it. I would think it could hold a bit unless something is broken or misaligned.

I would not buy a new (modern) brace. If you are going to buy anything, look for a good older model. A Millers Falls model with a "Holdall" or a "Lion" chuck would be a good option. There are a lot of good Stanley models as well, but I know less about them. Pexto also made many good braces, including the "Samson" line.

[Steve Voigt]

There are a lot of good Stanley models as well, but I know less about them. Pexto also made many good braces, including the "Samson" line.

I like the Stanley 2101A. These are less prized (and expensive) than the original North Bros, but can work very well. Mine is a transitional with both names on it.

Mathew (the OP), the picture you show looks like a low-end brace; the alligator jaws are not my favorite. They can and do work just fine, but if you are having trouble a nicer brace may help.

[Matthew Springer]

I just bought a BellSystems-B from Jim Bode. I think that might help.


I couldn't find a model number anywhere on the MF. It came inside the workbench my father in law bought in the 70s. Pretty sure it was a garage sale special.

[Kirby Krieger]

I think I need to just go buy a real brace.

https://goo.gl/photos/FedzUfKNftnTJox48

Maybe not. I don't know much, but I happen to have walked a path that seems usefully similar to the one you are on. The following information is from the helpful used tool merchant Sanford Moss. He sent it to me when I inquired about the lack of a female square-taper socket in the c. 1940's Craftsman brace I purchased from him.


American braces having a modified Barber patent chuck (most of them) do not have an inner sleeve that accepts the tapered square tang of the standard auger bit. The chuck design relies on the inner wall of the chuck applying pressure to the sides of the two jaws as the chuck is screwed shut. The jaws are squeezed together and are forced against the sides of shank of the bit, holding it firmly.

My chuck holds, and holds well, square-taper bits. I must sink the bit as far as the jaws allow, and keep the _corners_ of the square-taper lined up with the v-grooves in the jaws. I hold the bit in the chuck and tighten it. Holds well (have drilled ¾" holes in old pine).

The jaws of my chuck have deep v-grooves higher than the smaller v-grooves that grip the shaft. These deep v-grooves hold the square taper. The small v-grooves contact and hold the round shaft. The jaws I have are not toothed. The thick wire holds them together at the high end, and springs them apart inside the threaded tightening tube (the name of the part I do not know).

This orientation that works for me is 45° rotated from what you show in your third photo.

Here is a picture of a chuck designed for a square taper. This brace is one of the modern ones, made in France, and widely sold. It, too, works excellently with square-taper bits (but it does not — contrary to Lee Valley's claims on their site — work with hex bits).
336426

[John Kananis]

Kirby: I use mine with hex bits - its a three jaw chuck, why wouldn't it work?

[Kirby Krieger]

I use mine with hex bits - its a three jaw chuck, why wouldn't it work?

Afaict, because it is a poor design unfit to the task of gripping bits with the jaws alone.

On mine, each jaw hinges from near the outer circumference of the chuck, the face of each jaw angles further away from the axis of the bit more and more as the chuck is tightened. Thus when the jaws contact the bit, they contact at the tip of each jaw only (not along the "face" of the jaw — using the available metaphor, the jaws bite with their front teeth, for tearing, and not with their rear teeth, for gripping and grinding). These three sole points of contact are not enough to keep the bit in place.

I have tried jamming the end of the bit into the far recess of the chuck, but this doesn't help.

There is little enough play with, say, brad-point drill bits, that I can at least get a hole, just not a precise one. With larger auger bits I can't keep the bit and brace from tilting out of straight.

I discussed this with a Lee Valley technician, who acknowledged the problem. Lee Valley refunded my purchase of hex auger bits. I kept the brace to use with square-taper auger bits.

Does yours work? How is it different fro what I describe?

[John Kananis]

Kirby:

I haven't had an issue like that with mine. When I get home tonight, I'm going to check to see how the jaws clamp. I didn't buy mine from LV (can't remember where tbh) but I'm pretty confident that its the same model.

[Jerry Olexa]

good info on something we think we all know...thanks

[Glen Canaday]

I have a Stearns hollow auger and it fits all my braces. I do have a Samson chuck that has a problem with some of the bigger bits.


I absolutely mistyped. It's not a Stearns, it's a Bonney's patent, first version (no provision for a depth stop, the second had something for that). The disc type with the 6 or whatever preset sizes. It's not made by Stearns, my bad. But it doesn't fit in the 1/2" hole on a Barber chuck.

>>>

The auction site has a million bit braces available. My favorite are the Millers Falls 30s series, 14" #30 down to 6" #34. They are a simple, dependable ratcheting brace with a Barber Improved chuck (unless you get a super old early version, but I would suggest to leave those to collectors) that are built like tanks. I can't break mine. I prefer them over the 730s series with the holdall chuck for weight reasons...the holdall is a fair amount heavier. Lion chucks are heavier as well, but they hold like a champ and I have heard they were extremely well recieved. Why they aren't much more common I couldn't tell you. But I like the Barbers because they are somewhat lighter. And they will hold an auger like an alligator with an attitude.

[Jim Koepke]

I absolutely mistyped. It's not a Stearns, it's a Bonney's patent, first version (no provision for a depth stop, the second had something for that). The disc type with the 6 or whatever preset sizes. It's not made by Stearns, my bad. But it doesn't fit in the 1/2" hole on a Barber chuck.

[snipped]


I have a few older bits that were made for bit stocks instead of adjustable chucks. They do have problems in some chucks.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

Like Matthew, I have a Bell systems brace (as well as others) that I really like. The jaws really close well on the bits.

I also have a Stanley brace that does about as well. It's a shiny blue handled brace.

I also have a boxed set of Irwin bits. (gloat)

[John Kananis]

Afaict, because it is a poor design unfit to the task of gripping bits with the jaws alone.

On mine, each jaw hinges from near the outer circumference of the chuck, the face of each jaw angles further away from the axis of the bit more and more as the chuck is tightened. Thus when the jaws contact the bit, they contact at the tip of each jaw only (not along the "face" of the jaw — using the available metaphor, the jaws bite with their front teeth, for tearing, and not with their rear teeth, for gripping and grinding). These three sole points of contact are not enough to keep the bit in place.

I have tried jamming the end of the bit into the far recess of the chuck, but this doesn't help.

There is little enough play with, say, brad-point drill bits, that I can at least get a hole, just not a precise one. With larger auger bits I can't keep the bit and brace from tilting out of straight.

I discussed this with a Lee Valley technician, who acknowledged the problem. Lee Valley refunded my purchase of hex auger bits. I kept the brace to use with square-taper auger bits.

Does yours work? How is it different fro what I describe?

I see what you mean by the action of the jaws but I haven't had an issue with this (maybe just lucky?). Having said that, I don't think I've used a hex bit with an excessive amount of torque - hope it holds when I need it to...

[steven c newman]

Just chucked up a bit for a slotted screw. Chuck is a barber, brace is a 3410. Bit is a hex style. No problem to put in the chuck and crank it down. It will turn the screw nicely, too. Have also tried a hex shafted adapter to hold sockets.....worked like a "speedbar" . Might tried that 14" holdall brace to drive bolts. It would be like a cordless impact wrench....

[Kirby Krieger]

Yes — my Barber chuck works well, too. It's the chuck on the widely-sold, new, made-in-France brace that — for me at least — does not provide sufficient grip to use with hex-style auger bits.