Defective Buck Bros 1/8" Gouge?

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Oh the humanity! The emotional rollercoaster! I bought this gouge specifically for rifle stock inletting, thinking I had found what would become a staple tool. It's the perfect size and sweep for the corners of a Mauser 98 receiver. It's also a really nice looking, comfortable, antique tool. When I got it there was a small nick in the edge right where it is thinnest in the cross-section photo. No big deal thought I. So I started sharpening it but every time I put the edge to my diamond hones it would chip in the same place--right where the cross-section is thinnest. I ground a solid 1/8" off the edge hoping that I would get to some better steel. Maybe the previous owner tried to sharpen it on a bench grinder and ruined the temper. But even after grinding a good bit of it off I still kept getting a chip in that same spot. Maybe the temper is ruined throughout the steel? Maybe it's a defective tool to begin with? Any ideas?

Any chance I can re-temper the steel and give it another go?

I'd hate to have to relegate such a nice tool to junk.

[Mike Cherry]

I'm not a metallurgist, so hopefully someone will chime in. I suspect the temper of the tool is off.

[Kees Heiden]

If it chips one would say that it is a little too hard. Tempering it to a lower hardness would help in that case. No guarantees though!

If it folds over one would say that it is too soft, temper drawn by grinding too hot maybe.

You can als raise the bevel angle. Or use another sharpening medium that isn't so agressive as diamonds.

[Patrick Chase]

I'm not a metallurgist, so hopefully someone will chime in. I suspect the temper of the tool is off.

Generally when that happens the tool ends up over-tempered, which would cause the opposite of what the OP is describing (the tool wouldn't hold an edge, but it also wouldn't chip).

Unless of course somebody attempted to re-harden the tool and didn't temper it at all...

[Patrick Chase]

IOr use another sharpening medium that isn't so agressive as diamonds.

Or a higher-grit diamond plate. This was my initial reaction as well - the scratch pattern in the picture looks pretty coarse, and coarse diamonds are a very aggressive chip-inducing medium esp. if they haven't been fully broken in.

With that said, the thickness profile of that gouge just looks weird. If you think about cutting mechanics of an out-cannel gouge, the last thing you want is sides that are much thicker than the bottom. Lifting the tool to cut only "cancels" the bevel at the bottom of the gouge, so that tool will probably wedge if you ever try to take a deep cut with it such that the sides are engaged. If you do end up sticking it then I think you should give strong consideration to adding a progressive in-cannel bevel (by "progressive" I mean very little at the base, increasing up the sides). Leonard Lee describes this pretty well in his sharpening book.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Or a higher-grit diamond plate. This was my initial reaction as well - the scratch pattern in the picture looks pretty coarse, and coarse diamonds are a very aggressive chip-inducing medium esp. if they haven't been fully broken in.

With that said, the thickness profile of that gouge just looks weird. If you think about cutting mechanics of an out-cannel gouge, the last thing you want is sides that are much thicker than the bottom. Lifting the tool to cut only "cancels" the bevel at the bottom of the gouge, so that tool will probably wedge if you ever try to take a deep cut with it such that the sides are engaged. If you do end up sticking it then I think you should give strong consideration to adding a progressive in-cannel bevel (by "progressive" I mean very little at the base, increasing up the sides). Leonard Lee describes this pretty well in his sharpening book.


That at pic is after I ground off the old bevel on a 120 grit ceramic sanding belt (careful not to overheat, of course). So that's with a 90* bevel, or no bevel depending on terminology. I was getting the chips on a 400 grit diamond stone that is pretty close to fully broken in. Is it possible I still get chips with that?

Honestly I was thinking the thing is defective based on the weird, uneven cross section of the blade.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

Generally when that happens the tool ends up over-tempered, which would cause the opposite of what the OP is describing (the tool wouldn't hold an edge, but it also wouldn't chip).

Unless of course somebody attempted to re-harden the tool and didn't temper it at all...

That's my main concern. I know nothing about tempering steel and I can't imagine its particularly simple to do in a garage either.

[Patrick Chase]

That's my main concern. I know nothing about tempering steel and I can't imagine its particularly simple to do in a garage either.

I'm very skeptical of the results and overall value of "amateur metallurgy" and have said so several times, but tempering is actually pretty easy if you know what steel you're dealing with. You only need to get it up to 450F or thereabouts, with "thereabouts" being the tricky part because it depends on the specific steel and what hardness you're trying to achieve. Basically if you have a trustworthy oven that goes high enough and a tempering table (https://www.speedymetals.com/information/Material9.html) for the specific steel then you're set. AFAIK Buck used HCS exclusively, so the O1 table is going to be reasonably close.

With that said, given the provenance and overall condition of this particular tool I doubt very much that the heat treatment was done correctly, and in that case tempering might not help you very much. You might be better off just spending the money for a quality gouge (used or new) from a reputable source. Even if you can fix the tool so that it can be ground and honed you'll still need to deal with that whacked-out cross-section, and that will take some doing if you're not conversant with gouge fettling.

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

In reality it's probably worth it to just wait for another 1/8" gouge to pop up on ebay for $10-15. I just hate to relegate this guy to tool purgatory. Its wooden handle fits my hand perfectly, the gouge is the perfect length, etc.

Thanks for the replies, folks.

[Stew Denton]

Hi Matthew,

Just my two bits, but it does look like it was not tempered enough, as was pointed out above, and as a result it is too hard and brittle. It also has a weird cross section, granted.

That said, it sounds like you are going to give up on it. If you are not going to use it "as is", then you have nothing to lose by trying to temper it, and you could possibly end up with a usable tool, so I would at least try to temper it. I know there are tables of old "heat to this color" charts around that are for High Carbon Steel, and there are probably such for other types as well.

I have no doubt that there are articles on tempering on the net, and I know I have at least two books with articles on tempering in them, and probably more, so the information is out there. The target color probably depends on the alloy, very likely, as was hinted at above.

All I am saying, is that I would go for it with a butane torch, and you can either use your own torch or borrow one.


Stew

.
PS: I have used a butane torch to temper things, and my Oxy/MAPPs gas torch to harden before tempering. If you or a friend have a butane torch, it seems to me that there is nothing to be lost.

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi Matthew,

Just my two bits, but it does look like it was not tempered enough, as was pointed out above, and as a result it is too hard and brittle. It also has a weird cross section, granted.

That said, it sounds like you are going to give up on it. If you are not going to use it "as is", then you have nothing to lose by trying to temper it, and you could possibly end up with a usable tool, so I would at least try to temper it. I know there are tables of old "heat to this color" charts around that are for High Carbon Steel, and there are probably such for other types as well.

I have no doubt that there are articles on tempering on the net, and I know I have at least two books with articles on tempering in them, and probably more, so the information is out there. The target color probably depends on the alloy, very likely, as was hinted at above.

All I am saying, is that I would go for it with a butane torch, and you can either use your own torch or borrow one.


Stew

.
have used a butane torch to temper things, and my Oxy/MAPPs gas torch to harden before tempering. If you or a friend have a butane torch, there is nothing to be lost

I agree with Stew. You have little to lose here if you're going to set it aside anyway. I suggest that you give it a try. I did exactly what Stew suggested - read a few chapters in reputable books and watched a couple videos until I had a working understanding of how to do it. I use a MAPP gas torch in the garage and find that I can successfully anneal, harden and temper steel. It isn't difficult to do a "good enough" job for hobbyist use. I've done plane irons and they work just fine. Caveat: I'm certain my work isn't up to commercial or engineering standards. But it works well enough for my personal use.

Fred

[Warren Mickley]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the temper. I suspect sharpening technique. It could be that you are sharpening at too shallow of an angle. Or it could be that you are sharpening too much where the steel is very thin, getting a really long burr and are surprised when it breaks off.

Grinding on a 120 grit sanding belt? 400 grit diamond stone? What were you thinking? This is a delicate little gouge.

[george wilson]

First of all,Warren Mickley may be right. I can't be there to see what you are doing. BUT I have a set of pre war Addis carving tools,amongst my many other carving tools.The small gouge would just NOT sharpen. Same size gouge as you have. I determined that it was left too hard. So,I put it onto a hot plate and slowly as possible heated it to a dark brown color. Just left the handle on,but OFF of the hot surface,of course. After that,the gouge sharpened fine and behaved normally.

Some old tools managed to get out of the factory defective in some way. Quality control was not what it is today. And,I expect that a lot of secret nipping from a flask or flat bottle went on. Alcohol was the main pain relief source back then. Workers worked longer hours,more days per week,and got tired. Health care was poor. Many reasons just from human error why old tools can be bad.

Being the catch-all toolmaker in Williamsburg for many years,I was brought many an antique chisel that had problems. I even had a large framing chisel with a welded in bit come to me. The bit had come loose,and had ROLLED UP into a little curl!. It had NOT been hardened at all,and not well welded either. And it was a Witherby,a usually top brand in the 19th. C.. I re hardened the end of the chisel,and had to grind off the tip where the bit was curled up. I tempered it to a dark brown and put on a new bevel. After that,it was a good tool. Employees were not supposed to use antique tools,but bought them on their own anyway because of immediate need.

What you MUST be careful NOT TO DO is OVERHEAT your tool. If you do that,the tool will be too soft,and the entire hardening and tempering process will have to be done all over again. STAY STRICTLY AWAY FROM MAPP GAS TORCHES ON A GOUGE THIS THIN. Unless you have a LOT of experience with tool making,you can instantly mess up your gouge. Do exactly as I recommend here,as I have done thin many times,being a professional museum tool maker. I was there 40 years,arriving as a master craftsman.

I advise you to use an electric stove if possible. lay a thick piece of steel or brass over the coils of the burner. You don't want to heat your chisel in just the spots where the coil of the burner touches it. Steel 1/8" thick,if possible is recommended. Turn the stove on,and let the burner get hot. I recommend a LOW HEAT. HAVE a container of water handy next to the burner. Just water at room temperature will be fine. Don't try using ice cold water or you might crack your gouge. After the burner has gotten the steel plate hot,lay the gouge on the steel plate until it starts to turn a golden color. Then brown will appear. Dark brown will be next. When you reach dark brown,INSTANTLY remove the gouge and plunge it vertically into the water.

The chisel ought to be o.k. at the dark brown temper. If it is stubbornly still too brittle,go back to the stove and heat the gouge to a PURPLE COLOR. PURPLE comes just before BLUE. BLUE is a spring temper,and will still make a useful gouge,IF a little soft. Those FLEX CUT tools are made of spring steel. Some like them. I recommend that you stop at PURPLE,however,and quench the gouge instantly,before the color climbs to blue,which it will QUICKLY do!! But,should you not quench at purple,and fudge about for a few seconds before quenching,the gouge will turn GRAY,which is a DEAD SOFT temper,and you will have to remove the handle,heat the blade up to an ORANGE incandescent heat,quench in water,polish with wet or dry paper(Be careful at this stage because the gouge will be brittle AS GLASS. Be GENTLE.) Then re temper. It is also easy for the gouge to take a curve when it is quenched at orange heat,so do your best to NOT go over purple or blue AT THE MOST,when you are tempering the gouge IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This is not hard to do. I do it when it is necessary just as a matter of course,as easily as I would cut a piece of cheese to eat. I have also had to temper jeweler's saws that were so hard they would easily break. I leave them in a bundle of a dozen,as they come,and heat all of them at once. It is tricky to heat just one,as those blades are thinner than a fine needle,and will go to GRAY immediately. So,best temper them in bundles.

This post is what you really should do. I am an old hand at this sort of thing. I even make my own carving tools sometimes for need,or just for fun.

If your gouge continues to break off in little chunks no matter what you have done to it,the steel is just plain defective,and there is nothing you really can do except try grind a HALF INCH off the end(Hate to do that,I know)and see if you got away from the bad spot. I say again,quality control in the old days was not what it is today. We do make a lot of junky stuff these days because a lot of people are cheap minded,or not skillful,and just want a tool to do ONE JOB with,then it is put up and not used again. BUT,when you buy a good brand of tool,like those PFIEL carving tools from Wood Craft,you will get as good a tool as WAS EVER MADE. I love mine,and there has never been any problem with them. Stubai are also good. Frank Mittermier gunsmith supply sells them,I think. But,I don't like the handles they put on their carving tools. Stick with PFIEL and you will have a fine tool. They cost money,but quality costs money. They are not unaffordable,though. Especially if you just buy 1 or 2 as you come to need them. I also have the set of 12 smaller carving tools they make(Cost me $40.00 back in the 60's). I added their 6 piece add on set. THey are cheaper if you buy them in sets.

[Frederick Skelly]

STAY STRICTLY AWAY FROM MAPP GAS TORCHES ON A GOUGE THIS THIN. Unless you have a LOT of experience with tool making,you can instantly mess up your gouge. Do exactly as I recommend here,as I have done thin many times,being a professional museum tool maker. I was there 40 years,arriving as a master craftsman.

Thank you for teaching us (or at least me) yet another great lesson George. It never occurred to me that the size of this gouge wasn't appropriate with MAPP gas. I've only used it on plane irons. And thank you for the detailed instructions on using the electric stove. I think I'll go buy a hot plate now.

Best regards,
Fred

[Matthew Hutchinson477]

I'd like to add another thank you to George and everyone else. I'm gonna try sharpening the gouge with a finer stone to confirm that the temper is in fact bad. If that doesn't work (I'm pretty sure it won't) then I'll proceed to retempering. Should be a fun experiment.

[Patrick Chase]

Adding one little detail to George's impressive writeup... If you want to correlate temperature to surface color, see this (http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php) (or any of a bazillion other basically identical pictures on the Interwebs).

He's telling you to aim for brown, which is ~480F. If you refer back to the O1 tempering chart I posted in #8 that would get you Rc60 for properly hardened O1. He told you to stop no higher than dark blue, which would get you Rc58 or so in O1.

IIRC the shape of the curve is similar for other HCS - George, is that right?

[Stew Denton]

George,

Thanks you! One more note of thanks on this, I definitely learned from your post. I also appreciated Warrens comments.

Uneven heating and uneven color change is a problem I have had, particularly with smaller items when using a butane torch to temper. It has been a problem for me where you have thicker steel tapering to thinner sections. I have typically tried to heat the thicker area first and more, but sweeping quickly every now and then over the thinner areas. I try to be very patient and slow in the heating, try to keep the color change even all over, and let the heat work it's way from the thicker to thinner as much as possible. Even so, keeping the color changing in a consistent way has been a problem for me.

Like Fred and others have mentioned, I have been able to do this to where I end up with a usable tool, at least usable for me as a hobbyist, or one who works for free on stuff for kids and grandkids. However, in the cases I am writing about above, I have never done what I would call a "masterful job" by any stretch of the imagination. Also like Fred stated my tempering is certainly "not up to engineering standards", and being partially color blind does not help me with this either. But again, if I got a usable tool from the effort, even if perhaps not perfectly done, which certainly beats having one that is useless.

This sort of post is what makes this site so neat to read, guys like you, Warren, Jim, and others as well, write things that I might never learn any place else.

Thanks again and regards,

Stew

[george wilson]

I did some quick Googling of color charts before answering Patrick's question,to see where he is getting some of his information. I do not need to refer to them myself,being in toolmaking at the down and dirty level for practically all of my adult life. Even back in the 1950's,I was doing some tool making for myself,always being short on money.

Frankly,I don't understand the chart with colors and RC hardness as put out by "Anvil Fire". It lists 58 RC for 1095 at a full dark blue color. That just is NOT TRUE. I think a lot of these guys are at the HOBBY LEVEL,putting out info of that kind.

I KNOW that cannot be correct since we bought full blue 1095 sheet for making our saws. It ALWAYS tested on our Versitron,fully calibrated with sample test blocks,at 52 RC. Which is a fileable(if a bit hard on files!)RC hardness. This will be an o.k. hardness for small carving tools,though I'd really like them to be at more like 55 RC. I say that 52 for small carving tools would be o.k.,because they usually aren't cutting a great deal of wood,since they are generally for smallish details.

So,if you can manage it,I recommend a dark brown,and no higher if you can help it. Remember I have said that the ANTIQUE plane irons I used for many years(and still do),could BARELY be scratched with a NEW,FINE CUT NICHOLSON FILE. This is PRE MEXICO,of course!:) So,they were probably 54 or 55 RC. I had no hardness tester when I was the musical instrument maker. But,later experimentation with the Versitron bore out this assumption,and made it FACT.(I am always a great experimenter. Always curious about many things).

I am pretty safe in assuming that ANTIQUE carving tools will be W1,and not 01. So bear this in mind,please,when looking at color charts. And remember,I work from experience,NOT from Google. There is so much BAD INFO out there,I wonder how the newbie ever gets anything straight. It seems to me that every girl out there wants to be a jewelry maker or a photographer,and every boy wants to be a blacksmith!:):):)(O.K.,I know that is really not 100% true. Just the way it seems AROUND HERE!)

[Patrick Chase]

I did some quick Googling of color charts before answering Patrick's question,to see where he is getting some of his information. I do not need to refer to them myself,being in toolmaking at the down and dirty level for practically all of my adult life. Even back in the 1950's,I was doing some tool making for myself,always being short on money.

Frankly,I don't understand the chart with colors and RC hardness as put out by "Anvil Fire". It lists 58 RC for 1095 at a full dark blue color. That just is NOT TRUE. I think a lot of these guys are at the HOBBY LEVEL,putting out info of that kind.

Yeah, that's why I picked a chart that didn't have Rc values. I'm not sure where you dug up the "Anvil Fire" one or why you bering it up in your reply, because it certainly didn't come from me.

The color->temp corellations are very well established, though, are they not (modulo slight variations due to composition)? Those are determined by interactions of Fe-oxides and and oxygen...

[Pat Barry]

Which brown is George talking about? Dark Yellow Brown or Brown Red ? There is a huge difference. It must be the Dark Yellow Brown that comes right after Golden Yellow / Dark Straw. At 480F you could do that on a stovetop pretty easy

[Don Orr]

Wow-another EXCELLENT discussion/education on treating steels. Thanks George-your knowledge is vast, your generosity boundless. I never would have thought to use a steel plate for even heat distribution on the stove-brilliant! Not that the boss would ever let me do that though. I used a toaster oven to temper an O1 plane blade that I made. Put the blank in after hardening, set it to 450 deg, waited about a half hour and turned it off. Came out a beautiful dark straw color. Sharpened and honed and it cut great. It can be done at home with a little guidance from the experts. The steel does need to be clean and shiny to see the color changes.

[george wilson]

Dark brown is just dark brown as far as I'm concerned. It starts out golden,then light brown,then a darker brown. Never noticed any red about it.

Yes,different alloys show different colors at the same temperature. You need to be careful what alloy you're using. Don't use junkyard"Mystery metal".Most guys use 01. It is a good all purpose,fairly easy to harden and temper tool steel. W1 steel will harden harder than any other steel. It goes up to 67RC. It also will get SHARPER than any other steel(I don't know about powdered steels. My LV PMVII block plane blade gets mighty sharp!) The steels I have used are W1,01,A2(ALWAYS for my wife's punch and die sets. It stays sharp longer,and does not noticeably distort due to being air hardening.,ATS 34(a complicated steel to deal with!), D2(a high wear resistant tool steel made for shearing other steels. But,it doesn't hold a razor sharp edge. The edge wears off,leaving the edge just under razor sharp,but very long lasting. Best for punches and dies rather than knife blades).And lastly 52100 ball bearing steel. It is a pretty simple steel,with high carbon and 3% chrome. BUT,I think a pocket knife blade I made for an antique pocket knife whose main blade was too worn down may be the very best blade I ever made. It gets VERY sharp,and STAYS VERY sharp for a LOOOOONG time! A bit of trouble to harden,as it decarbs badly unless you wrap it in stainless steel wrap while at high heat. At first,I did not think much of this blade,but,having sharpened it several times,it now holds a terrific edge. I must have let a bit of air get to it when hardening,and now have gotten through the softer skin. Possible for the stainless steel envelope to leak a bit. I have a big bunch of large ball bearing BALLS that I have to weld onto a steel bar,then pound into a strip for making knife blades. I keep the temperature at not more than RED heat. Doing that causes the carbides in the steel to break down into very small particles,enabling very sharp edges to be had. Over heating it will melt the carbides,and they condense into large formations,causing less keen edges to be had. You need a POWER HAMMER to pound a red hot ball into a strip! Red hot bearing steel is about as hard to forge as cold mild steel.



Patrick,Anvil Fire had nothing to do with you. It was just a chart which I noticed had BOTH colors and RC values. Pretty inaccurate though,in my experience. And NO,I'm NOT going to appear on that silly "Forged in Fire" program with that bunch of clowns. That includes the judges.I wonder if guys like those made up that chart!!:) (Not that anyone asked me about being on that program. I am aware that a LOT of the more DECENT knife makers refused to go there because of the rules they have to sign up to follow.) The ones they are getting certainly aren't what I'd call "experts" by any means. I don't know WHY they always want the contestants to make such LARGE knives. They are not useful for anything. Except the MACHO factor!!:) I'm not really a knife maker anyway. I make one every now and then. But,I think you have to be willing to work for very little an hour to make knives for a living. I think most of these guys I see at gun shows must have other day jobs.

Don,even professional tool and die makers use a toaster oven. Me included. But,I don't trust the little cheap thermometers that they come with. I use a LONG probe high temp. thermometer from Brownell's Gunsmith Supply. I carefully slip it into one of the vent slots on the back side of the oven. Having a PRE HEATED oven to put your quenched tools into AS SOON AS YOU CAN BARELY HANDLE THEM(that's about 140º) is an excellent rule to follow. You get better performance from your steel. PLUS,hard as glass tools left laying about until it was CONVENIENT to temper them HAVE been known to suddenly burst violently. Fully hardened steel is full of stress.

[Don Orr]

Thanks for the extra info George. I didn't trust the thermometer in the oven either but it was what I had at the time. Kinda scary about exploding steel-that could ruin a good day for sure.

[george wilson]

ALL of you need to be careful about leaving fully hardened steel around. First,it is not good for the ultimate performance of the cutting tool(if it is a cutting tool,punch and die set,etc.)

The MOST DANGEROUS situation is when the steel in question has a lot of mass or thickness to it. a 1/8" chisel is not too dangerous,but it should be tempered AS SOON as you can barely hold it in your hand. Then,it will stay sharp longer.

If your item does go POP!!!!! it MAY send high velocity fragments flying.