Lathe Tools

[Jim Gallo]

Hi, I am new to turning, but have done a lot of research. I purchased an 8 pc set of Harbor Freight lathe tools to learn to turn and to sharpen.

I was just about ready to build a Wolverine type jig, when I found a Woodcut Tru Grind jig, an Ace 6" grinder, with 5 wheels(Norton/3M Grey/White) for $130. Now I am attemping to sharpen my tools. I setup the Tru Grind on my Harbor Freight 8"wet/6"dry grinder, and I am surprised at how good of a job the wet wheel does, although I don't have anything to compare it to, because I have never sharpened a lathe tool before. But I have sharpened plane irons and chisels, and I definitely know what sharp is.

My problem is, I can't tell the difference between a spindle gouge, bowl gouge, roughing gouge, etc. I'm not even sure if the set included a bowl gouge. I'm trying to sharpen these tools by the standards that are documented in the Tru Grind manual, but need to know what I am sharpening, so I can apply the correct settings. I have attached pics of two of the gouges that I am having trouble identifying.

Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Jim

[Bob Bouis]

A bowl gouge has a deeper flute (the cutout in the middle). It looks more like a deep "U" or "V." A bowl gouge should also have a much sturdier attachment to the handle (i.e., not a thin "tang").

Those are spindle gouges.

ETA: the larger one is definitely intended for roughing. The smaller one also seems to be quite large and may very well be intended for roughing also. I'm not sure why they're supplied together.

[Steve Mellott]

Jim: I notice you live in the Pittsburg area. You should consider joining the Pittsburg woodturning club. I'm sure they can answer all your questions and provide some great assistance which will make your turning a lot more enjoyable.

[Brian Kent]

The roughing gouges (probably 2 - 1" and 3/4") have a U shaped viewed fro the end. They are ONLY for spindles, to make a square piece of wood round. It is never for bowls or end-grain. I have the same set and I am still using these tools, along with many others, 4 years later.

When you want a bowl gouge go to Thompson Lathe Tools and call the owner. He will give you good advice.

[Aaron Craven]

I have the set you're talking about. It does not include a bowl gouge. The two gouges are both spindle roughing gouges (though HF might call the smaller of the two a "spindle gouge"). The set probably also came with a tiny little spindle "detail" gouge that has a thin flute. This is NOT a bowl gouge (it's far too thin for that use). It will take a fingernail grind, but it's small enough that it's difficult to avoid the tip being too pointy.

They're pretty good tools for the price, but I can't understand why they don't include (or at least separately sell) any bowl gouges.

[Reed Gray]

Those gouges would be considered spindle roughing gouges, not bowl gouges. The shallow flute is a 'continental' style, and the deeper flutes one is a standard SRG. Great for roughing out spindles, not good for roughing bowls, and can actually be dangerous if you don't know what to do with them. Do join the local club, huge learning source, and hands on sessions, and mentors.

robo hippy

[Brian Kent]

Jim, if you could post a picture of the set, people here could name them for you in order.

[Thom Sturgill]

I will disagree a bit here. The two gouges are both European (or German) spindle gouges, not Spindle Roughing Gouges. They are normally ground with a rounded end rather than square like a SRG. They are great for long beads and coves, though you may want a regualr spindle gouge, detail gouge, or skew to clean up the end of the cuts. .

A word of warning - I started with a similar set (the read handled set) and the tools were only hardened about 1/2-3/4" from the tip. Once I have reground the standard spindle gouge a few times I found that it would not take an edge. I hope your luck is better, but the HF tools seem to be spotty when it comes to the heat treatments.

[Dane Riley]

I bought the same set a decade ago. I wondered why the tools would not cut cleanly. Recently I tried the file test. The larger tools could all be filed. The smaller ones were harder, but small scrapers are not too useful. The small skew is the only one I use even occasionally. Could buy a Thompson for less.

As a bowl gouge is the only tool with much of a learning curve to sharpen, and this set doesn't include one, I would try the file test. Properly hardened HSS should be too hard to file, the file will just skate over them. If any of them can be filed, I would take them back.

[Tom Giacomo]

The HF sets do not have a bowl gouge in them. I started with a HF set they are good just no bowl gouge.

[Jim Gallo]

Thanks for all the replies. I have gone to a few AAW woodturning guild meetings, and took this set to be identified. A woman there told me what each tool was, and one of the two gouges pictured, she identified as a bowl gouge. I marked the handles with what she told me they were.

I will take a few more pics with the identifying marks on the handles.

She may have made a mistake by saying one is a bowl gouge.

I am really confused with the names and uses of all the woodturning tools.

[Bob Bouis]

Here's a good link:

http://www.hiltonhandcraft.com/Articles/GougeShapes.html

[Brice Rogers]

Thom brought up a good point on the chance that only the end of the tools are hardened. Doing the file test makes sense. In fact, I'm going to check some of my own tools.

If you (the original poster) are the sort who is willing to do some research and experimentation (rather than just replacing your tools), it is possible to re heat-treat the tips if you find them to be unhardened. This is, of course, based on the premise that there is enough carbon in the tools to BE hardened. If the metal alloy has too low of a carbon content, etc., it may not be reasonably practical to harden. There are a number of Youtube videos on backyard heat treating. Although you are unlikely to get the results of the professionals, perhaps it would nevertheless be adequate. Feel free to PM me if you would want some simple advice in this area. I've successfully heat-treated a couple of hands full of tools over the years.

[Aaron Craven]

There are currently two HF sets, and I'm not sure which this is. One is HSS (it costs about $60-70 if I remember correctly). There is a far cheaper set (about $20 I think) that... well, it's just a waste of money. :-/

I've been relatively pleased with mine (they're certainly not Thomspon or Sorby), but I'm not a big fan of the skews... Thinking about upgrading to something a little better. Right now, I mostly wind up using them as negative rake scrapers.

Just picked up a cheap Benjamin's Best bowl gouge from Penn State. So far, I'm pleasantly surprised. It took an edge well and seems to be keeping it well for a budget-priced tool. I need to throw some hickory at it and see just how well it compares to the Sorby gouge I've been using.

[Thom Sturgill]

[QUOTE=Aaron Craven;2557270]There are currently two HF sets, and I'm not sure which this is. One is HSS (it costs about $60-70 if I remember correctly). There is a far cheaper set (about $20 I think) that... well, it's just a waste of money. :-/

/QUOTE]
Actually there are three. The most expensive is the $80 red handled set (I started with it). The Op appears to have the $65 set (blonde handles) and then there is the $19 set of vaguely tool shaped objects.

[Aaron Craven]

Actually there are three....

I stand corrected. I've never seen the red-handled set. My set is the middle set. Are the red ones any better (aside from a nifty red-colored handle)?

[Thom Sturgill]

Aaron, they look to be very similar - same tools but a 'better' handle shape, a little thicker just below the ferrule. I think the tool selection is a bit different now on the middle set, but I am not sure on that. The red handled set was strongly recommended back then over either other set at the time I started - 2007.

PSIs Benjamin's Best are a small step up, Sorby and the other English brands a bigger step up but still M2 HSS. The quality of the heat treatments being a major differentiation.

D-Way, Thompson, Carter, and a few others using the newer steels are a much bigger step up, but bought unhandled are actually more affordable and due to the fact that they will last longer probably actually lower costing over the life span of the tool.

[john taliaferro]

I would agree with Steve Mellott ,when i joined the local club they laughed a lot . But they were a big help and a very good group of friends .

[Jim Gallo]

Ok, I now am aware that the two gouges that I pictured ARE NOT bowl gouges.
I am going to purchase a Thompson 1/2" bowl gouge (probably U flute).

Am I correct that Thompson gouges do not have handles? I'm not concerned about actually turning the handle, but I am worried about the proper way to install the blade into the handle.
Do I make the hole tight or loose? Do I use epoxy, and if I do, should I drill a small hole somewhere for the air and epoxy to escape? If I like the size and shape of the handles I make, what is the easiest method of removing the handles of my HF tools, without damaging the tang? I always wondered this about paring chisel handles too. I'd love to make new handles for them also, but don't want to damage them. Some have tangs and others have sockets.


I may also buy another lower quality bowl gouge (Bens Best/Grizzly/Artsan/???) to experiment with different grinds. Which lower quality/inexpensive manufacturer makes a tool that is still usable?

[Brice Rogers]

Jim, in response to your question:

"Do I make the hole tight or loose? Do I use epoxy, and if I do, should I drill a small hole somewhere for the air and epoxy to escape? If I like the size and shape of the handles I make, what is the easiest method of removing the handles of my HF tools, without damaging the tang? I always wondered this about paring chisel handles too. I'd love to make new handles for them also, but don't want to damage them. Some have tangs and others have sockets."

For most of my homemade tools, I have a round cylinder at the end rather than a tang. So I drill a hole that is fairly close fitting but not particularly tight.

You are right to think about the issue of getting the air to escape as well as "hydraulic lock". Some people make the hole deeper to allow the air to compress. Some people will add a couple of decorative rings (perhaps also burning with a wire) and hide a small pressure release hole in the bottom of the ring. I typically take a dremel to the round shaft and slot it longitudinally to allow the air and excess epoxy to have a place to go.

When I was mounting a tanged tool, I probably did an overkill - - I used a pair of 3/4 inch boards and used a Dremel tool to allow room for the tang before I glued the two pieces together and before I turned it. There are obviously a lot of other ways to address this.

Removing a tanged tool from it's handle? I haven't done this but think that you could place the tool into open vice jaws (that is, not clamped tightly but instead quite loose), with the tool pointed down and the handle pointed upwards and split the handle lengthwise with a sharp wood chisel and hammer/mallet.

I always add a ferrule of either brass or copper (from a plumbing fitting) to my home made handles to help strengthen the end of the tool. Plus it looks more finished. I've never had a tool split.

[George Courson]

I always add a ferrule of either brass or copper (from a plumbing fitting) to my home made handles to help strengthen the end of the tool. Plus it looks more finished. I've never had a tool split.
I watched a video yesterday where the guy used a brass compression end that he used the threads to pull it down over the end of the new handle.
He then turned the handle, using a spindle gouge to make the brass end round, as it was originally a hex-shaped fitting. I was amazed, as I hadn't thought about doing it like that. True, HSS Tool steel is harder than brass and shouldn't have a problem turning it.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I purchased a set of 8 HF HSS lathe gouges, and although club members said they were not worth the $28 I paid on sale with 20% off coupon, I have been turning with them for over 4 years, and made about 50 objects so far. They hold a good sharp, but probably need more sharpening than high end tools. The 2 shown by the OP are not bowl gouges but spindle roughing gouges. My set had 2 skews, a round nose scraper, a parting tool, a beveled scraper, a spindle detail gouge, and the 2 SRG's. The box was the worst part of the package (the cheap latches broke with a few months); now a rubber inner tube band holds it closed for transporting. I have purchased 2 WoodRiver Bowl gouges (5/8" & 3/8"), and a couple of carbide tools. Now I am making tools as I need them. Someday when I win the lottery, I'll buy Thompsons or such. but for now I'm still making sawdust.

[Dane Riley]

The small HF skew from the "HSS" set works well. The large one, a more useful size, doesn't cut well for more than a few seconds after sharpening. Nor does the large roughing gouge. The file test showed why.

I wonder if this is just my batch or if there all that way. So far no one is brave enough to try the file test and report the results.

[Aaron Craven]

The small HF skew from the "HSS" set works well. The large one, a more useful size, doesn't cut well for more than a few seconds after sharpening. Nor does the large roughing gouge. The file test showed why.

I wonder if this is just my batch or if there all that way. So far no one is brave enough to try the file test and report the results.

I haven't tried the file test, but I have the opposite results with the SRGs. My large SRG holds an edge quite well. The smaller one decidedly less so. I would imagine this is just poor consistency. I can't seem do do anything with my skews -- some of that is lack of skill on my part, but I'm rapidly starting to think the tools are hampering my ability to learn.

[Larry Matchett]

Buy one of Thompsons handles when you buy the tool. They are really good. When you are a more advanced turner you can turn your own handles. Join a turning club and ask for a mentor. One day in someone's shop will be worth its weight in gold. Practice turning with a pine 2 x2. Start with the spindle roughing gouge make it round. The progress to the spindle gouges and make some cuts with the parting too. REMEMBER "ABC" Anchor, bevel, cut. Turning is really fun but only if you do it safely. I mentor new turners all the time. They have become great friends and I am constantly learning from them also. Most of the folks I mentor are on the north side of 50. They are all becoming great turners. I am sure the Pittsburgh club has a mentorship program. Happy turning.

[Dane Riley]

I dug out my small HF SRG (still almost 7\8" across) and it passes the file test across its entire length. Cuts pretty well when properly sharpened. So two useful tools ought of eight. Unfortunately the parting tool fails.

[Mark Greenbaum]

What's the FILE TEST? for hardness?

[Dane Riley]

What's the FILE TEST? for hardness?

Yes. Credit Alan Lacer's Toolmaking video. A file wile not file properly hardened carbon steel, which is roughly the same hardness as a carbon steel file. HSS is even harder after hardening. Annealed (unhardened) steel is softer and can be filed.

[Brice Rogers]

Yes. Credit Alan Lacer's Toolmaking video. A file wile not file properly hardened carbon steel, which is roughly the same hardness as a carbon steel file. HSS is even harder after hardening. Annealed (unhardened) steel is softer and can be filed.

Yes, if the file "skitters" off the tool without taking out a "bite", the tool is very hard.

I think that this was probably figured out by blacksmiths a few thousand years ago. When I googled it, some attributed steel and hardening to the Han dynasty in 200 BC. There was another reference going back to the 13 century BC. So people figured out the file test or equivalent a long time ago.