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Brian Sommers
04-20-2016, 7:01 PM
I'm using my table saw to do my rough cutting and I want to know is there a way to shoot plywood with a hand plane? How would you go about it?

Curt Putnam
04-20-2016, 9:03 PM
I wouldn't try. I value my irons too much and would not like the effort involved - half of it is glue. LV's shooting sander might be of interest - depending on size, etc.

Frederick Skelly
04-20-2016, 9:10 PM
- half of it is glue.

+1. You shoot it the same way you shoot anything else. (Or at least I did.) But as Curt said, it's tough on your irons - nicks them, dulls them. But it's doable.

Brian, is there a reason you don't feel comfortable with the edge that comes off a new sharp saw blade?

Jim Koepke
04-20-2016, 9:10 PM
My first thought when seeing the title of this thread was with a Colt .45.

I do not use much plywood. As Curt suggests try sandpaper.

jtk

Patrick Chase
04-20-2016, 9:21 PM
My first thought when seeing the title of this thread was with a Colt .45.

You mean you'd drink a 40 of Colt 45 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_45_(malt_liquor)) and then shoot the plywood? Seems legit...

EDIT: Get a pair of those cheapo Avanti 60t ATB blades at the Orange Borg. They leave an OK surface on ply and MDF, and you won't feel bad when you pitch them. I've shot plywood before when I had to, and it invariably leads to grinding, honing, and tears.

For really good cut quality you could also try a Freud LU79R010 (80-tooth high-ATB) or the even more expensive Forrest equivalent. The Freud 1090X is also a decent medium cost option for ply, but its 0.087" kerf is narrower than many riving knives, so if you go that route be prepared to make a dedicated insert with a thin splitter. Speaking of inserts, zero-clearance is a must when cutting laminates in my experience.

EDIT 2: What sort of ply? As somebody else noted it's the glue that does the damage, and that varies a lot. I would not recommend shooting HydroTek FWIW (generous layers of phenolic adhesive).

Also, this is one case where you really REALLY want a sloped shooting board. I still remember the first time I shot multi-ply Birch plywood without one, and saw the perfectly spaced notches in my cutting edge.

James Pallas
04-20-2016, 10:05 PM
If you woodwork chances are you are going to end up using some plywood or other manufactured wood products for jigs or fixtures or whatever. That stuff will put Some scratches in your good planes. I have a handyman #5 that I keep around for just for those times plywood a painted edge knotty fir and the like. I don't have any guilt feelings when I put the #5 to task.
Jim

Lenore Epstein
04-20-2016, 10:15 PM
I've consistently had sharp clean results on birch plywood (not Baltic birch, just the regular medium-quality kind) using a fairly fine-toothed Diablo blade made for plywood and MDF from the Borg. And that's with a circular saw and a shop-made cutting guide, so I'm sure you could do at least as well on your table saw with the right blade in good condition.

As for shooting, I'd trust the advice given above.

Stew Denton
04-20-2016, 11:41 PM
Hi Jim,

You had the same thought I did, and I have made a lot of 243 size holes in targets stapled to a plywood target holder, although I haven't made any such holes in a few years. I will say one thing though, if you are used to seeing 24 caliber holes, a 45 caliber hole is a frighteningly big opening in the paper.

With regard to the plywood, I have a few half sheets, full sheets, 3/4 sheets, etc., from years ago. I am not particularly fond of it any more either, but if you grew up like I did, you don't want to actually throw away anything like that when it is still usable..... I am thinking about making some chest like things for storing cans of nails, etc.......can't just throw away something good.....even if I don't particularly care for the stuff......

Stew

Art Mann
04-20-2016, 11:53 PM
I have to wonder why you would use your table saw to do rough cutting but not to cut to final dinensions. That is what a table saw excels at. If you want to stay true to the Neanderthal faith, then you should be cutting plywood with a hand saw.

Patrick Chase
04-21-2016, 12:03 AM
I've consistently had sharp clean results on birch plywood (not Baltic birch, just the regular medium-quality kind) using a fairly fine-toothed Diablo blade made for plywood and MDF from the Borg

Diablo and Freud are one and the same. I bet yours is either a 1080X or 1090X (I don't think the Borg carry the LU79R010 - too spendy).

Patrick Chase
04-21-2016, 3:16 AM
I have to wonder why you would use your table saw to do rough cutting but not to cut to final dinensions. That is what a table saw excels at. If you want to stay true to the Neanderthal faith, then you should be cutting plywood with a hand saw.

Are you sure that's how they worked plywood back in Moxon's day? How about MDF? :-)

Seriously, if somebody wants to stay true to the Neander faith they probably shouldn't be using engineered panel products to begin with. We all compromise here and there, though. If I'm making shop fixtures out of ply or MDF then power tools are fair game.

Stanley Covington
04-21-2016, 4:29 AM
Use a steel-bodied plane that works well, but which you are willing to sacrifice. The sole will get badly scratched by the sanding belt grit embedded in the plys.

Get a HSS blade from Japan. I think Tsunesaburo makes one. Not fun to sharpen, but the tungsten will help.

You may want to clamp a stick on the end of the plywood sheet to prevent the inner plys from spelching.

Oil the sole of your plane frequently (like every stroke).

I hope you hate the plane, because it will hate you back after a few passes.

Stan

Hilton Ralphs
04-21-2016, 4:44 AM
Sorry not an answer to your shooting question but a decent plywood specific blade and a zero clearance throat plate are your friends. Remember when cutting plywood you want to blade fully extended (high as possible) which is exactly the opposite when cutting wood.

Robert Engel
04-21-2016, 7:18 AM
In addition to what Hilton ^ said, here's the trick if you need perfectly clean plywood cuts:

Score with sharp knife before cutting.

But a high quality, newly sharp blade and a slow feed rate will do about as good.

Karl Andersson
04-21-2016, 8:04 AM
For shooting and cleaning up plywood edges, I use Surform planes, which people practically give me at yard sales and flea markets. No, really, they are Neander tools; one of mine is old enough to have wooden handles! They come in two-hand "bench plane" size and block plane size, and the hard steel blades stand up pretty well to the plywood glue (plus there are dozens of little blades to share the load). I usually don't try to make the edges perfectly smooth, since most plywood panels I make are for framed door panels and are hidden in grooves, but you can angle the surform slightly as you push it to get a smooth surface instead of grooves from the rasp teeth. If you had a bunch of plywood to smooth, replacing surform blades as they wore out would be easier than resharpening your plane blades. Here's the block plane size for those who've never had the pleasure:

336108
Happy planing
Karl

steven c newman
04-21-2016, 8:17 AM
I just used both a Wards 78 and a Mohawk-Shelburne #900 to do the edges and rebates on a plywood panel. Will use that panel as a bottom for a box I am building..
336112
No problems....

Tony Zaffuto
04-21-2016, 8:47 AM
I'm using my table saw to do my rough cutting and I want to know is there a way to shoot plywood with a hand plane? How would you go about it?

LIL. Don't know if anyone has posted this yet, but if planing the edge of plywood, be careful you do not get slivers from the opposing grain stuck between the blade and sole, as you can chip the sole pretty easily. Block planes are very susceptible to this happening, particularly Stanley 15's and 60-1/2's.

george wilson
04-21-2016, 9:26 AM
Plywood can even put grooves in your jointer(the machine kind). Its not kind to their cast iron tables either.
just saw it with a smooth saw blade and leave it alone.

lowell holmes
04-21-2016, 10:00 AM
This is a hand tool forum, so I will saw I cut plywood with a hand "skilsaw". It is a 1960's vintage 6 1/2" B&D. The blade is a 6 1/2" plywood blade.:)

Brian Sommers
04-21-2016, 10:01 AM
The reason I said what I did was that I only have a contractors saw. It isn't the most accurate thing in the whole world, Close but definitely no cigar. But I guess I don't need such tight accuracy with it because I'm just making stuff for the shop. I'm using Baltic Birch three-quarter inch ply. I'm thinking about getting an incra miter express sled for the cross cutting. I have been cross cutting by hand and so far it's been coming out dead on. So I might just save it for stuff like that. I do have a Freud 80 tooth blade, I do like it but I have taken it off and put the default Dewalt 24 tooth back on and for the cutting I do I like that even better. Maybe I need a new 80 tooth it just seems hard going.

Matt Radtke
04-21-2016, 10:18 AM
It's not my favorite, but I do clean up the edges of plywood with a block plane. I figure it'll chew up the edge, so I want something brain-dead simple plane to pop out, hone, and get back to work asap.

No reason you couldn't shoot with it as well.

Simon MacGowen
04-21-2016, 11:21 AM
I thought it was a trick question as why anyone would need to shoot a plywood edge if it was cut on the tablesaw properly in the first place. Are you referring to splinters or chipouts? If so, suggestions by others like a scoring cut, masking tape, etc would handle it. If you were experiencing burn marks or heavy saw marks on the edges, your saw fence might be off and need adjustments. If you're shooting for fine-fitting, that's a different story.

Simon

Ray Selinger
04-21-2016, 11:52 AM
I faired the plywood mold stations for a cedar strip canoe with a spokeshave. Don't even bother with a Surform rasp, it will dull after the first stroke. I sharpened a lot, a few years later Vertas PM VII blades showed up. The power tool boys get away with using those spiral carbite insert heads on their jointers, even then, it's a not recommended.

David Bassett
04-21-2016, 12:07 PM
I'm thinking this might be the time for a carbide flush-trim bit in a router.

Art Mann
04-21-2016, 12:15 PM
Exactly! I just thought the OP might feel better if he did things the hard way.


Are you sure that's how they worked plywood back in Moxon's day? How about MDF? :-)

Seriously, if somebody wants to stay true to the Neander faith they probably shouldn't be using engineered panel products to begin with. We all compromise here and there, though. If I'm making shop fixtures out of ply or MDF then power tools are fair game.

Pat Barry
04-21-2016, 1:23 PM
How did this thread get to be 5 stars?

Brian Sommers
04-21-2016, 2:38 PM
Where is my response? I put in a response from my iphone.

John Kananis
04-21-2016, 8:30 PM
I hate to say this (especially in this particular forum) but a little trim router with a flush trimming bit is your friend here.

Luke Dupont
04-21-2016, 9:06 PM
For shooting and cleaning up plywood edges, I use Surform planes, which people practically give me at yard sales and flea markets. No, really, they are Neander tools; one of mine is old enough to have wooden handles! They come in two-hand "bench plane" size and block plane size, and the hard steel blades stand up pretty well to the plywood glue (plus there are dozens of little blades to share the load). I usually don't try to make the edges perfectly smooth, since most plywood panels I make are for framed door panels and are hidden in grooves, but you can angle the surform slightly as you push it to get a smooth surface instead of grooves from the rasp teeth. If you had a bunch of plywood to smooth, replacing surform blades as they wore out would be easier than resharpening your plane blades. Here's the block plane size for those who've never had the pleasure:

336108
Happy planing
Karl


Hey, that's not a bad idea!

I too had trouble with plywood. $100 worth of trouble, to be precise, and got so fed up with the stuff, not having any kind of power tools, and not being able to come back and clean my laborious hand cut lines with my plane, that I swore (and still do swear) never to buy the stuff again ;)

But, I didn't think of using a surform plane! That's a good suggestion.

Best of luck to the OP!

Lenore Epstein
04-21-2016, 11:32 PM
To take a brief non-Neander detour, something's not right with your saw if you can't make clean square cuts. A worn, burned/warped, or pitch-sticky blade, a fence that's not square to the blade, or a wonky arbor could make the blade catch the wood, pull stock out of line, and cause kickback and roughness. The Google will reveal tons of instructions and videos on diagnosing problems and tuning up table saws.

OTOH the sure-form plane sounds like a decent alternative!

lowell holmes
04-22-2016, 9:24 AM
I would clamp a straight edge to the plywood and cut it with a plywood blade in a small circular saw. If you score the cut line with a box cutter knife, you can get a clean cut. This technique works well on wooden door bottoms as well. It's not the place to neander. I've cut several mahogany veneer doors with this technique. It works on plywood as well.

Some times it helps to make two cuts, the first one 1/32 or 1/16 proud of the line and then on the line. Just use a knife cut scoring line to saw to.

Brian Sommers
04-22-2016, 5:18 PM
I'm thinking of getting one of these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TXSAHU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=YCBEUDGX1NXG&coliid=I3TPQ3BSZKOKFR
and one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Rockwell-RK3441K-Compact-Circular-Saw/dp/B00GTEU0M4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I have a very old heavy skill saw from about 20 some years ago, a beast and I cant cut a straight line If I had to.

Tony Zaffuto
04-22-2016, 5:44 PM
I'm thinking of getting one of these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TXSAHU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=YCBEUDGX1NXG&coliid=I3TPQ3BSZKOKFR
and one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Rockwell-RK3441K-Compact-Circular-Saw/dp/B00GTEU0M4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I have a very old heavy skill saw from about 20 some years ago, a beast and I cant cut a straight line If I had to.

I have the straight edge and it works well. I don't have he saw and for me, it would not be a first choice (or second, third or fourth). I have a Milwaukee 7-1/4" that works well, but is heavy and I avoid it unless I have to use it (through the years hand saws have really ruled the roost). But for that stuff, such as plywood, MDF, etc, I have a Dewalt 18v circular saw that is simply great. My suggestion for a sheet good saw, is to look at a battery powered one.

Lenore Epstein
04-22-2016, 10:42 PM
I've resisted posting these details because I didn't want to break Neander rules, but I'd just hate to think of someone buying manufactured jigs when it's so easy to get perfect results cheaply.


I'm thinking of getting one of these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003TXSAHU/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=YCBEUDGX1NXG&coliid=I3TPQ3BSZKOKFR
and one of these: http://www.amazon.com/Rockwell-RK3441K-Compact-Circular-Saw/dp/B00GTEU0M4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Or you could make an absurdly cheap, ridiculously simple, and awesomely effective jig from scraps or cheap sheet goods. When I started out with power tools I felt deprived when I realized there was no way I could fit a table saw and its noise and mess into my little apartment and front porch, and just as discouraged when I considered spending precious $$ on manufactured jigs--until I discovered that this jig (http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html) meant I didn't need any of it.

Right away I was making straight, square, clean cuts using the jig, a DeWalt 18V trim saw, a Diablo 140 tooth OSB/plywood blade, and a 12" strip from the factory edge of a sheet of 1/4" tempered hardboard. Any stable material will work so long as the guide edge of the top piece is dead straight, which is why I used the Masonite's factory edge (after checking it with my best straight edge).

To use it, line the jig's edge up with your cut line, make sure it's square to the edge of the workpiece with either a square or a batten attached to the bottom of one end, clamp the jig to the workpiece, and cut away. No measuring to add the width of the saw plate; in fact, you only need to make one mark for your cut and then square the jig to the mark, although it was easier to use two marks.

Here's the main part of the wayneofthewoods.com plan, edited for brevity:

Step 1 - Get a 12-inch wide piece of 1/4" to 1/2" plywood (1/4" to 1/2" ) that is the desired length of the type of cuts you will make, usually 4 or 8 feet.

Step 2 - Obtain another 2-inch wide board or strip of plywood with one long edge that is dead straight. It must be thin enough so that the body of the saw will clear it when your circular saw rests up against it. This will be your guide strip.

Step 3 - Fasten the guide strip onto the plywood. Leave an inch or two behind the guide to clamp the guide to the workpiece, and make sure the strip's straight edge is facing the side to be cut.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/sawguide2.GIF
Step 4 - Rip your plywood with the saw resting against the guide strip's straight edge.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/sawguide3a.GIF

My tips:
* A coat or two of furniture wax on the surfaces the saw slides against will help its plate glide smoothly.
* Smooth off any rough edges on the saw plate with fine sandpaper and wax it, too.
* Stick some PSA backed sanding disks to the bottom of the jig to keep it from sliding around.

Pat Barry
04-23-2016, 10:46 AM
I've resisted posting these details because I didn't want to break Neander rules, but I'd just hate to think of someone buying manufactured jigs when it's so easy to get perfect results cheaply.



Or you could make an absurdly cheap, ridiculously simple, and awesomely effective jig from scraps or cheap sheet goods. When I started out with power tools I felt deprived when I realized there was no way I could fit a table saw and its noise and mess into my little apartment and front porch, and just as discouraged when I considered spending precious $$ on manufactured jigs--until I discovered that this jig (http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html) meant I didn't need any of it.

Right away I was making straight, square, clean cuts using the jig, a DeWalt 18V trim saw, a Diablo 140 tooth OSB/plywood blade, and a 12" strip from the factory edge of a sheet of 1/4" tempered hardboard. Any stable material will work so long as the guide edge of the top piece is dead straight, which is why I used the Masonite's factory edge (after checking it with my best straight edge).

To use it, line the jig's edge up with your cut line, make sure it's square to the edge of the workpiece with either a square or a batten attached to the bottom of one end, clamp the jig to the workpiece, and cut away. No measuring to add the width of the saw plate; in fact, you only need to make one mark for your cut and then square the jig to the mark, although it was easier to use two marks.

Here's the main part of the wayneofthewoods.com plan, edited for brevity:

Step 1 - Get a 12-inch wide piece of 1/4" to 1/2" plywood (1/4" to 1/2" ) that is the desired length of the type of cuts you will make, usually 4 or 8 feet.

Step 2 - Obtain another 2-inch wide board or strip of plywood with one long edge that is dead straight. It must be thin enough so that the body of the saw will clear it when your circular saw rests up against it. This will be your guide strip.

Step 3 - Fasten the guide strip onto the plywood. Leave an inch or two behind the guide to clamp the guide to the workpiece, and make sure the strip's straight edge is facing the side to be cut.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/sawguide2.GIF
Step 4 - Rip your plywood with the saw resting against the guide strip's straight edge.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/sawguide3a.GIF

My tips:
* A coat or two of furniture wax on the surfaces the saw slides against will help its plate glide smoothly.
* Smooth off any rough edges on the saw plate with fine sandpaper and wax it, too.






Yes, not neander but very effective. I made an 8 foot long one of these years ago and used it frequently for breaking down sheet goods with a circular saw. The one thing I did different was to make a straight edge out of both sides, one for cutting left of the blade, and one for right of the blade because sometimes it works best on one side or the other.

Patrick Chase
04-23-2016, 12:32 PM
I've resisted posting these details because I didn't want to break Neander rules, but I'd just hate to think of someone buying manufactured jigs when it's so easy to get perfect results cheaply.



Or you could make an absurdly cheap, ridiculously simple, and awesomely effective jig from scraps or cheap sheet goods. When I started out with power tools I felt deprived when I realized there was no way I could fit a table saw and its noise and mess into my little apartment and front porch, and just as discouraged when I considered spending precious $$ on manufactured jigs--until I discovered that this jig (http://wayneofthewoods.com/circular-saw-cutting-guide.html) meant I didn't need any of it.

Right away I was making straight, square, clean cuts using the jig, a DeWalt 18V trim saw, a Diablo 140 tooth OSB/plywood blade, and a 12" strip from the factory edge of a sheet of 1/4" tempered hardboard. Any stable material will work so long as the guide edge of the top piece is dead straight, which is why I used the Masonite's factory edge (after checking it with my best straight edge).

To use it, line the jig's edge up with your cut line, make sure it's square to the edge of the workpiece with either a square or a batten attached to the bottom of one end, clamp the jig to the workpiece, and cut away. No measuring to add the width of the saw plate; in fact, you only need to make one mark for your cut and then square the jig to the mark, although it was easier to use two marks.

Here's the main part of the wayneofthewoods.com plan, edited for brevity:

Step 1 - Get a 12-inch wide piece of 1/4" to 1/2" plywood (1/4" to 1/2" ) that is the desired length of the type of cuts you will make, usually 4 or 8 feet.

Step 2 - Obtain another 2-inch wide board or strip of plywood with one long edge that is dead straight. It must be thin enough so that the body of the saw will clear it when your circular saw rests up against it. This will be your guide strip.

Step 3 - Fasten the guide strip onto the plywood. Leave an inch or two behind the guide to clamp the guide to the workpiece, and make sure the strip's straight edge is facing the side to be cut.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/sawguide2.GIF
Step 4 - Rip your plywood with the saw resting against the guide strip's straight edge.
http://wayneofthewoods.com/sawguide3a.GIF

My tips:
* A coat or two of furniture wax on the surfaces the saw slides against will help its plate glide smoothly.
* Smooth off any rough edges on the saw plate with fine sandpaper and wax it, too.
* Stick some PSA backed sanding disks to the bottom of the jig to keep it from sliding around.

I use one of these for panels that are too large for the table saw. I used an aluminum extrusion for the guide track, though.

Niels Cosman
04-24-2016, 1:31 PM
I use a low angle block plane or jack and treat the board just as if it was end grain.
I don't really care about dulling my tools, I know how to sharpen quickly.

I read some years back that Freud had done research that indicated that that trimming cuts on a table saw are actually horrible for the carbide blades since there is not enough material being removed to effectively transport heat away from the tool. It significantly reduces the working life of the blade.

Patrick Chase
04-24-2016, 6:20 PM
I read some years back that Freud had done research that indicated that that trimming cuts on a table saw are actually horrible for the carbide blades since there is not enough material being removed to effectively transport heat away from the tool. It significantly reduces the working life of the blade.

I don't buy it. Dry wood isn't thermally conductive or massive enough to remove a significant amount of heat that way.

The problem with trimming cuts is that the cutting forces are asymmetric across the blade, and that leads to all sorts of issues. It certainly hurts accuracy, and I can think of a couple ways that it might hurt heat/life.

Lenore Epstein
04-24-2016, 11:09 PM
I don't buy it. Dry wood isn't thermally conductive or massive enough to remove a significant amount of heat that way.
Folks on the router forums I used to haunt said that what reduced the heat was the ejection of sawdust; removing a sliver of material means there's less mass being thrown off, thus less heat removed from the wood surface.

Not that this would apply to tablesaws...