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mark kosse
04-20-2016, 10:19 AM
Howdy All,

I came across a panel saw this weekend I can find no info on. When found it had the usual dark but decent plate with an etch visible but unreadable through the rust. Luckily, no pitting though. The handle has a Disston USA medallion and is questionably Disston shape. The handle style does seem to be from the first half of the 20th century.

Upon a little cleanup the etch shows a to be a Standard plate. No other info on it though. I wish I would have taken the picture before I put oil on because it was much easier to read then. Internet searches have come up dry for saws or companies marked Standard.

336056336058

My apologies for the upside down pics.

Can anyone give any info on it? Its most likely been pieced together. I haven't had time to pull the handle off to check the holes. It's stamped to be 9tpi but was retoothed to 5.

george wilson
04-20-2016, 11:26 AM
Looks like someone has filed "peg teeth" onto the blade. This is not a good tooth configuration. Will not cut as well as a normal configuration. These type teeth cut equally well in either direction. But not particularly well.

mark kosse
04-20-2016, 12:02 PM
You're right, they are. Set way too much also. The kerf was almost .125". it'll take a lot of work to get it back into shape.

Phil Mueller
04-20-2016, 12:46 PM
Have you tried the Disstonian Institute site? Has a complete history, medallion photos, etc. may help.

george wilson
04-20-2016, 2:57 PM
Too much set will make a saw work terribly. I had an old rip saw many years ago that cut terribly rough. When I tapped down the set,it was like night and day.

mark kosse
04-20-2016, 3:57 PM
thanks but no info. it mentions nothing other than disston and warranted superior.

Phil Mueller
04-20-2016, 4:13 PM
I was thinking more in terms of trying to match the medallion. I can't see what your's looks like, but it may help to at least date the saw. Or does the medallion say "Standard" as well?

Patrick Chase
04-20-2016, 4:14 PM
You're right, they are. Set way too much also. The kerf was almost .125". it'll take a lot of work to get it back into shape.

With that much overset I'd recommend pressing them back into place with a machinist's vise (the kind with parallel flat-ground jaws).

If you don't have one you can improvise with a conventional metalworking vise and 2 pieces of precision ground steel bar stock. The general idea is to use the bar stock as floating jaw inserts, such that they conform to the sawplate and press the set out as you tighten the vise. I made mine by bonding a piece of Aluminum angle stock to the back of each steel insert, such that I can rest them between the vise's existing jaws with the angle stock holding them vertically in place. I also use a layer of rubber between the insert and the vise on at least one side to take out non-parallelism in the vise.

Be sure to allow the sawplate itself to float when you press it in a vise (either kind), or else you'll press in a kink. You can put sheets of paper between the inserts and the saw to leave a desired amount of uniform set in place.

george wilson
04-20-2016, 4:25 PM
I agree about pressing the teeth back. With the amount of set the teeth have,they might well break off some. So,the most gentle method of flattening them needs to be employed. Hammering them down might break teeth off.

I recommend the teeth be flattened before any re filing takes place. If even ONE tooth breaks off,it means that you will have to re file all the teeth to below the cracking point of the broken off tooth(S). Save yourself the trouble of doing it all over again and reduce the set to begin with. Squeeze them down,using the paper in the vise method. The method has been discussed here before,but we can describe it if you need. DON'T even THINK about jointing the SIDES of the teeth to reduce that amount of set. You'd probably run out of metal! For real!!!

Brent Cutshall
04-20-2016, 4:52 PM
Seeing as I'm the saw whisperer around here I think I'll take a crack at it :D. *clears throat*That is a Disston no.085 with an Atkins junior mechanic or a Simonds osceola handle on it and the medallion is misplaced, it should be in the middle. Now I agree with George, if you joint the sides you'll weaken the teeth and you'll have to set them wider. Good luck!

Patrick Chase
04-20-2016, 5:27 PM
I agree about pressing the teeth back. With the amount of set the teeth have,they might well break off some. So,the most gentle method of flattening them needs to be employed. Hammering them down might break teeth off.

I recommend the teeth be flattened before any re filing takes place. If even ONE tooth breaks off,it means that you will have to re file all the teeth to below the cracking point of the broken off tooth(S). Save yourself the trouble of doing it all over again and reduce the set to begin with. Squeeze them down,using the paper in the vise method. The method has been discussed here before,but we can describe it if you need. DON'T even THINK about jointing the SIDES of the teeth to reduce that amount of set. You'd probably run out of metal! For real!!!

If the toothline is really 0.125" wide then it's almost certain that he would run out of metal by jointing. The plate would have to be 1/16" thick (half of 0.125") to avoid it, and I'm not aware of any Disstons like that. Even with the press method I think there's a pretty high risk of snapping teeth. Adding that much set would have caused a fair bit of strain-hardening, and bending strain-hardened teeth back is problematic even with a low-impact approach like pressing (hammering would likely be a disaster IMO). Even if he can get the set back within reason I suspect they'll be noticeably more difficult than usual to file. We ski tuners often encounter a similar problem when trying to file the strain-hardened aftermath of rock impacts...

I have my doubts about that 0.125 number though. Even with 5 tpi peg teeth I doubt you could put that much set on a saw without snapping some teeth, so I'm cautiously optimistic that that was a typo or measurement error :-).

Joe Bailey
04-20-2016, 6:50 PM
"The Standard" was one of many trade names used for saws manufactured by the Monhagen Saw Works of Middletown, NY --

The MSW are probably best know for manufacturing the Wheeler, Madden & Clemson line of handsaws.

mark kosse
04-20-2016, 7:18 PM
You may have your doubts, but I don't. Even with my diminishing vision I still see things in 1/64th's.

Did you happen to see the "almost"?

mark kosse
04-20-2016, 7:29 PM
Thanks Brent, that helped.

I was thinking it wasn't a Disston but the 085 makes sense. Disstionian makes no reference to the 085, or any trade saw that I see. I did find some references at the old tools archive to it and it's rebranding, for pretty much anybody who wanted one.

When I get some time I'll pull the handle and see what the holes look like.

george, I have a 5" machinist vise that will be perfect for the job of flattening. I don't use it much because of its size. Of course I better check to see if it is 5".

Thanks folks, m

Jim Koepke
04-20-2016, 8:08 PM
You may have your doubts, but I don't. Even with my diminishing vision I still see things in 1/64th's.

Did you happen to see the "almost"?

It wouldn't surprise my one bit. Many people have no knowledge of how a hand saw works yet they know a saw set is a saw sharpening tool. Some fool likely put all the set he could on the improperly filed teeth and figured he'd done good.

jtk

Brent Cutshall
04-20-2016, 8:15 PM
Joe, do you think Monhagen might have filtered saws through Disston because in the Disston flyer in 1912 or 1918 they advertised a three screw "Standard" saw.

Patrick Chase
04-20-2016, 8:24 PM
It wouldn't surprise my one bit. Many people have no knowledge of how a hand saw works yet they know a saw set is a saw sharpening tool. Some fool likely put all the set he could on the improperly filed teeth and figured he'd done good.

jtk

Yeah, my apologies. 1/8" just seemed so far out of the realm of the possible that I was hoping it was a typo or measurement error. Even a cheap OEM saw like the 085 doesn't deserve that sort of treatment.

The sawplates on full-sized Disstons are typically 40 mils at the teeth, so to get to 125 mils you'd need 42 mils/side of set. If all teeth are set then this implies that there is a 45 mil section down the center that's cut entirely by the inner tooth sides. If that's happening it should be very, very obvious if you make a cut and carefully examine the bottom of the kerf. OTOH I've seen some ridiculously overset saws in which every 3rd tooth was left unset as a "raker" specifically to prevent that. If that's the case with this one then that will make fixing it much harder as you'll have to reverse the set on some teeth.

Don McConnell
04-20-2016, 8:37 PM
Erwin L. Schaffer's _Hand-Saw Makers of North America_ contains an extensive list of Disston saw models and numbers. Among them is the Standard, number 085, with known dates of manufacture between 1914 and 1923. The model is described as a straight-back handsaw. It may well be a continuation of the Wheeler, Madden & Clemson model, as that firm was absorbed by Disston in 1893. According to Erv, it was one of a number of smaller saw makers absorbed by Disston that year, all of which they continued to operate as a new enterprise, the National Saw Company, of Newark, NJ.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

Jim Davis
04-20-2016, 11:19 PM
I recommend the teeth be flattened before any re filing takes place. If even ONE tooth breaks off,it means that you will have to re file all the teeth to below the cracking point of the broken off tooth(S). ...

Disston, at least, instructed to just leave a single low tooth and use the saw. After several use sessions and subsequent filings the low tooth would not be low anymore. The point was that filing a whole saw down to reach a low/broken tooth was a huge waste of saw plate.

Stew Denton
04-21-2016, 12:07 AM
Hi George,

Good comment on the teeth and cutting, and a good sharpening reminder. I chuckled when I read it, and thought I bet George is meaning "it cuts equally POORLY in either direction.

Stew

george wilson
04-21-2016, 9:29 AM
Correct about cutting poorly in either direction. If you can stand having a saw with a few missing teeth,yes,it will still saw. Bothers me,though.

bridger berdel
04-21-2016, 9:49 PM
you're going to have to file quite a bit off of the tops to get the teeth back in a useful configuration anyway, so I think I'd start with jointing off the tops. then squeeze out the overset, then start shaping the teeth. if you have to stone off a little set at the end to even up the cut it's not the end of the world, but don't rely on that too much. personally, if I had a saw like that and broke a tooth setting it up, I think I'd probably live with it as long as it wasn't where I needed to start a cut.

lowell holmes
04-22-2016, 7:36 AM
I would file the tooth line smooth and re-tooth the saw. The Ron Herman video on saw sharpening will show you how. I have re-toothed two panel saws after watching the video.

Also, in Houston, Circle Saw will re-tooth saws. IIRC, the last time I had a saw re-toothed it cost $2. I think they charged $4 to sharpen a saw.

Pat Barry
04-22-2016, 7:47 AM
IIRC, the last time I had a saw re-toothed it cost $2. I think they charged $4 to sharpen a saw.
This must have been in the 60's

george wilson
04-22-2016, 8:28 AM
We had a very old man in Richmond who would charge about 4.00 to sharpen a saw. I don't know how he made any money. Funny thing was,his business was called "The Automatic Saw Sharpening Co." Nothing automatic about it! He did everything by hand. He knew what he was doing,too.


P.S.: I just googled it. The company apparently still exists,but I am sure that the old man is dead.

lowell holmes
04-22-2016, 8:59 AM
Actually, it was in 2010-2012. I don't remember exactly. I've had several saws sharpened there and charges are always nominal.
Their prices are still nominal . See below


http://www.circlesaw.com/saw-blade-sharpening-service-chain-saw-lawn-mower-blade-and-more

Mel Fulks
04-22-2016, 9:09 AM
George, he is gone,can't remember how far back. But he lasted a long time. Good guy. I bought a NEW rip saw from him and he insisted on sharpening it at no extra charge as it was not up to his standards. The shop is now on downtown Hull St. since VCU took over everything in the former location. Still run by the guy he taught years ago.

mark kosse
04-22-2016, 1:30 PM
That's funny, I've been dealing with them for so long and I never thought of a web sight for them. The sharpening shop is right behind the counter sales but is behind a wall so it cant be seen. I live just 2 miles away from them. 10.00 sounds temping but I'll probably do it myself.

Actually, as I think about it, i'll probably use at least one file retoothing the saw and all my files are American made Nicholsons, so it may be worth 10.00.

lowell holmes
04-22-2016, 5:17 PM
You live 2 miles from them and I live about 20 miles from them.:) It's easy to get me up for the trip, because I will have sub from Antone's when I go.

They have a tooth cutting machine and the saw will be sharp when you get it back. If I weren't playing with combinations of tooth count, shape, and sharpness, it wouldn't be worth the effort. They will not polish the saw plate, but it will be clean and smooth. There will be some luster on the saw plate.

I took a #4 Disston tenon saw to them and they did a good job on it.

It's also fun to browse through the toys on display.

Mike Holbrook
04-23-2016, 10:12 AM
I am wondering about some of the comments about jointing, filling the sides of teeth... I believe Herman does suggest hitting the side of sharpened teeth with a file when tuning it. I think I have read a Daryl Wary post where he mentions doing it too.

I think George is cautioning against actually reducing the width of the teeth, which I think is different than doing a swipe or two to remove excess steel, essentially a wire edge? I can certainly see the wisdom in not trying to reduce tooth set by filling the sides of the teeth. Some of the old saws I have that were "sharpened" by someone of questionable skills seem to have been sharpened with dull files that left a good deal of "wire' hanging off the sides of teeth. I have found that this wire is often worse on one side of the saw causing it to not want to cut straight. Certainly setting the teeth more on one side than the other can cause a similar problem. I often look down the tooth line to see if there is a tooth or a few teeth that stick out.

I like Atkins saws. The handle positioning seems to work better for me. I like the feel of the blades which may relate to the fact that I sort of learned to saw with Japanese "pruning" saws. The Japanese saws "feel" a little more like the Atkins saws to me. Atkins seems to make more narrow blades, ship points are more common. I am trying to preserve the lesser blade widths so I am trying to practice conservative sharpening.

lowell holmes
04-23-2016, 10:55 AM
[QUOTE=Mike Holbrook;2557137]I am wondering about some of the comments about jointing, filling the sides of teeth... I believe Herman does suggest hitting the side of sharpened teeth with a file when tuning it. I think I have read a Daryl Wary post where he mentions doing it too.

Herman does show that in his video. It is to correct drift caused by excessive set to one side. He is only talking about one or two swipes.

I envision what George is talking about. If you side joint a toothline excessively, it could cause misshapen teeth. Once that happens, you get to start all over again.

I've tried clamping saw teeth sides with paper in between the teeth and the drill press vice jaws, but I never was able to make it work.

Patrick Chase
04-23-2016, 12:52 PM
Herman does show that in his video. It is to correct drift caused by excessive set to one side. He is only talking about one or two swipes.

I envision what George is talking about. If you side joint a toothline excessively, it could cause misshapen teeth. Once that happens, you get to start all over again.

I've tried clamping saw teeth sides with paper in between the teeth and the drill press vice jaws, but I never was able to make it work.

I think one unspoken assumption here is that the set needs to be uniformly excessive for that to work, not variable.

Even light stoning of the sort Herman advises can be problematic when the saw has fleam and the set isn't uniform, because in that case all stoning really achieves it to trade nonuniform set before stoning for nonuniform height afterwards (assuming you filed them all to the same height before you stoned). It isn't clear to me that that's an improvement, and I personally don't stone saws that have fleam. It's also why I'm leery of setting techniques that have high potential to leave nonuniform results - once your set is variable you don't have a whole lot of good options to fix it, short of pressing it out.

Obviously that isn't an issue for a ripsaw.

george wilson
04-23-2016, 5:54 PM
If you find paper inconvenient,try just sticking a length of tape under each side of the teeth. Won't fall off when you move the saw along in the vise,and still gives a good even set that works well.

Several years ago,I saw an article in one of the magazines(might not even have been a woodworking magazine),where some guy showed how to INCORRECTLY sharpen a saw. He made PEG teeth,the kind that don't cut well,but cut in either direction.

When I see an article like that,it really puts me off of desiring to subscribe!! It would be VERY BLASTED NICE if a magazine had an editor who was actually familiar with the work. Then,garbage like that would not be published,to end up misinforming newbies. Some people are psychologically inclined to believe whatever they see in print. Forgetting that it might have been put there by some total knot head worse than themselves!!:)

Patrick Chase
04-24-2016, 12:38 PM
To be clear, I do use paper to control set when I press. I also think that oversetting by some variable amount and then pressing back to whatever uniform set you really want is a somewhat "violent" thing to do to a saw, for lack of a better word. it's much better to just get it right the first time IMO.