Was about to buy a SS ICS.. Now thinking Minimax SC4. Any other saw I should look at?

[Steven Wayne]

I was ready to pull the trigger on a Sawstop ICS this morning when I did more searching and reading on here. I gave in and started looking at Euro sliders. One 60 second youtube video did me in. I had never paid attention to them before. We had a Unisaw in shop class in school growing up. I have a similar vintage Unisaw in my shop now.

So.. I feel like a slider is a must do. In looking at the field, wanting to keep the cost under five digits, considering brand performance/customer service, machine quality, and that stuff it seems like Minimax is a great choice. I have scoured classifieds and eBay and nothing is jumping out at me. I want 8' rip capacity, single phase.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a quality 8' slider, single phase, under $10k delivered with a good customer support record?

Thank you in advance!

[Joe Jensen]

I had a Unisaw in 1984, then a PM66 in 1990 and then a Sawstop ICS in about 2006. Not sure what price point you are looking at or how much space you have. I have a Felder 700 series with a 9 foot slider and I love it. If you have a cabinet saw and you want to rip an 8 ft sheet of plywood. You will need a minimum of 8 ft in front of the blade, the length the blade takes, say 8" and another 8 feet after the blade. You will also need some space in front of the sheet to stand to maneuver it, call it 18 ft. My 9 foot slider needs about 19 ft. Not a big difference, but with the slider you have a 9 foot obstruction in the shop all the time. Many use a full length slider in a 2 car garage but I think that would be really tight.

[Jeff Ramsey]

I was ready to pull the trigger on a Sawstop ICS this morning when I did more searching and reading on here. I gave in and started looking at Euro sliders. One 60 second youtube video did me in. I had never paid attention to them before. We had a Unisaw in shop class in school growing up. I have a similar vintage Unisaw in my shop now.

So.. I feel like a slider is a must do. In looking at the field, wanting to keep the cost under five digits, considering brand performance/customer service, machine quality, and that stuff it seems like Minimax is a great choice. I have scoured classifieds and eBay and nothing is jumping out at me. I want 8' rip capacity, single phase.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a quality 8' slider, single phase, under $10k delivered with a good customer support record?

Thank you in advance!

Steve, if you're set on a slider you can find them used on Craigslist, but plan on a road trip (or arranging a shipper). There are two Felder combo machines now for sale in your price range; one in Dallas and the other in Rochester. There were a few Minimax sliders, but they've been sold. Just keep looking (there's a good CL search app for an iPhone that will search daily for search-terms).

http://rochester.craigslist.org/tls/5479607626.html

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/tls/5464822788.html

[Frederick Skelly]

Just an idea for you..... We also have a Minimax Rep that frequents this site - Erik Loza. You might drop him a PM, either to inquire about a new one or to see if any of his customers are upgrading and are trying to sell a used MM.

Edit: His profile says he's out of Texas, but he could hook you up with a Rep closer to Washington if he can't help. (I have no affiliation to Mr. Loza or MM - just trying to help out here.)

[Rich Riddle]

If you are asking for reputable slider companies, you have several. Martin, Felder, and Hammer (Felder's homeowner line) all produce good saws or did at one point. Erik can help in regards to MiniMax. I have a Hammer and it's just fine at the homeowner level.

[Steven Wayne]

Thanks guys! I'm in contact with Erik, that's what put the SC4 Elite on my radar. I'm not keen on arranging crating and shipping on a used machine I would be buying site unseen. What I was wanting to know is if there are other machines I should consider. I'm feeling great about Minimax.

[Rick Lizek]

Look at Grizzly sliders.

[Steve Wilde]

Steven,
Looks like you're in Washington so not too far from salt lake city. Here is one that been on a local classifieds section for a week or so.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=218&ad=39302993&cat=&lpid=5&search=table%20saw&ad_cid=11

[Steven Wayne]

So.. now I'm wondering if 10.5' is too big..

[Brian Lamb]

Longer is always better unless you can't physically fit it into the shop.

[Steven Wayne]

I'm trying to decide between Minimax's SC4 Elite w/ 8.5' sliding table and the Si315 Elite-S w/ 10.5' sliding table which would be the better machine for me. What does the additional funds buy me?

[Mike Wilkins]

Since you are on the west coast, why not look at the Laguna offerings. I have had a 5' short stroke slider for over 5 years with no problems at all. That is about the limit of my 16 X 24 shop, so an eight foot machine would move me out of the shop.
Good luck and let us know what you choose.

[Steven Wayne]

I shyed away from Laguna because I've read so much negative feedback about their after sale support.

[James Zhu]

Steve, if you're set on a slider you can find them used on Craigslist, but plan on a road trip (or arranging a shipper). There are two Felder combo machines now for sale in your price range; one in Dallas and the other in Rochester. There were a few Minimax sliders, but they've been sold. Just keep looking (there's a good CL search app for an iPhone that will search daily for search-terms).

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/tls/5464822788.html

IMO, this 2006 Felder CF731 is a very good deal for $7995, it is a saw/shaper/jointer/planer combo with mortising attachment, just wayyyy better than the brand new SawStop ICS, surprised it is not sold yet.

[Steven Wayne]

James,

That saw would cost me a couple thousand, or more to get to me, and I wouldn't see it before I buy it. Lastly, I would be at the mercy of the seller, crating company and shipper.. Not going to risk $10k on that. Also, all I want or need is the saw function. This machine is for processing sheet goods.

I feel like the SC4 Elite is the right saw for me..

[James Zhu]

James,

That saw would cost me a couple thousand, or more to get to me, and I wouldn't see it before I buy it. Lastly, I would be at the mercy of the seller, crating company and shipper.. Not going to risk $10k on that. Also, all I want or need is the saw function. This machine is for processing sheet goods.

I feel like the SC4 Elite is the right saw for me..

Steven,

Understood. I am just surprised that people close to Dallas area have not bought it:)

Btw, what you said Felder CF731 is for processing sheet goods is incorrect.

CF731 can certainly process hardwood, it is a slider, a shaper, a jointer and a planer. There are lots of threads talking about what you can do with the slider.

SC4 Elite is a slider too.

Both SCM and Felder make excellent machines, they are competitors. I am sure you will be happy with SC4 Elite.

[Steven Wayne]

What I meant when I said "This machine is for processing sheet goods." I should have said "The reason I am looking at buying a slider is to process sheet goods." (primarily).

[John Lankers]

Steven, Felder or MiniMax either machine will make you happy. For effectively processing 8' long boards or sheet good you should have a 9' slider to have room for clamps to secure the workpiece and an outrigger to hold large panels in place.
Buy the best machine you can afford - it will only hurt once, seriously.

[mreza Salav]

Altendorf and Casadei (made by SCM similar to minimax) are also good. There is also Martin but $$$$$.

[Bill Sutherland]

You may have considered this already but if you're wanting to process sheet goods have you considered Festool MFT setup? A complete Festool MFT setup and a Sawstop will have you well under $10K and a lot more versatility.

[Tom M. Schmidt]

I faced exactly this decision over the past couple of months and had my heart set on a Sawstop PCS with all the goodies, ~$4k. Then I learned about sliders and there was no going back. I found new Hammer K3 79" was on a great sale, not a huge amount more money in the grand scheme of things, where you still need sleds and fixtures and such for the SS. Hammer also had the 60th anniversary C3 79" combo on a great package deal, which moved me in that direction as I didn't have a J/P either.

I was fortunate to find a nearly perfect condition 4 year old Minimax CU300 Smart with 8.5' slider and every option, only 250 miles away. Erik and Steve helped me out with information/education and I am sooooo glad I got the longer slider. 8.5' seems plenty for everything I do as a hobbyist and the Minimax is seriously industrial strength for my needs. I anticipate I'll use the slider 90% of the time, J/P more as I start doing more hardwood projects, while the shaper I still need to find tooling for and learn to run safely. The mortiser will probably never get used as I have both Domino machines which are much easier and very flexible to take the machine to the work pieces.

I'd always used the Festool MFT/TS55 for sheet goods, but once I had the outrigger and 8.5' of slider I just throw it on there, break it down, clean factory edges, etc. It's much quicker than setting up a cutting table in my space.

Ultimately I think the combo machine is worth it just for the slider and the other stuff was a bonus in my case. Couldn't be happier with my choice. BTW my quotes for short haul UShip to pick up and deliver were $300-400, so maybe that's an option for you.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I'd add a shaper to the unit. Doubles the utility of the slider.

[Rod Sheridan]

I'd add a shaper to the unit. Doubles the utility of the slider.

Exactly, it's so great to have a tilting spindle, sliding table shaper..................Rod.

[Steven Wayne]

I have a Festool track saw and two MFT's. I don't feel like they are comparable to having a sliding table saw.

I have no interest in a shaper.

I am an upholsterer and do most of my work in mdf. I do a lot of car audio type fabrication as well. The standard in most shops is a Sawstop ICS. I've been a hobbyist wood worker my whole life. I prefer to work with good tools, and the right tool for the job. Even though most guys doing what I do are happy with a cabinet saw, I feel like the slider is a great addition to my shop and work flow.

I'm hoping to get a chance to see one prior to committing funds.

[John Sanford]

Steven,
Looks like you're in Washington so not too far from salt lake city. Here is one that been on a local classifieds section for a week or so.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=218&ad=39302993&cat=&lpid=5&search=table%20saw&ad_cid=11

If only I had the space.....

Oh, and it's still 1,000 miles from SLC up to SeaTac area. Not exactly "not too far."

[Martin Wasner]

What I meant when I said "This machine is for processing sheet goods." I should have said "The reason I am looking at buying a slider is to process sheet goods." (primarily).

If you want a saw just for cutting up sheets, a slider ain't it. Look into a panel saw. Striebig, Holz-Herr are the two top names. The Striebig being the better of the two.

[Steven Wayne]

If you want a saw just for cutting up sheets, a slider ain't it. Look into a panel saw. Striebig, Holz-Herr are the two top names. The Striebig being the better of the two.

Hmm.. I'm not following. Everything else I've read has said a sliding table saw (like the MM SC4/315 I'm considering) is the right tool for the job if I want to work with sheet goods. You're saying that is not the case? Can you elaborate?

It's really frustrating, it is near impossible to get a good idea of the use and application of the Euro machines, the model differences, who carries what, where to buy, which used machine is good or bad choice, on and on..

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input!

Does the 8.5' SC4 that I'm considering have enough capacity to rip a 97" long sheet of MDF on the wagon?

[Jim Andrew]

I have the Hammer k3 winner, with 79" stroke. Very pleasant to be able to cut perfectly square panels. More length on the slider would be great. Nothing wrong with the Hammer brand quality wise.

[Steven Wayne]

I have the Hammer k3 winner, with 79" stroke. Very pleasant to be able to cut perfectly square panels. More length on the slider would be great. Nothing wrong with the Hammer brand quality wise.

For the life of me I can't figure out how to even get pricing on Hammer equipment. The Euro machinery company marketing and websites are abysmal.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The Euro machinery company marketing and websites are abysmal.
They definitely do not have the "customer is always right" mentality that we have in the US! I finally gave in and "registered" on Felder's website (for access to the videos), and they sent me some email inquiring about what I was looking for (and I just deleted it - whatever). Promptly 3 days later, they emailed me and chided me for not replying to their earlier email!

[Jim Becker]

I'm trying to decide between Minimax's SC4 Elite w/ 8.5' sliding table and the Si315 Elite-S w/ 10.5' sliding table which would be the better machine for me. What does the additional funds buy me?
I have the S315WS and love it. (The older version that still came with the 8'6" slider...which requires 19' of throw, end to end) It's an excellent machine and if I'm not mistaken, a little heaver than the SC4 Elite. In reality, I could likely be very happy with the SC4 Elite, but it wasn't an option at the time I was buying (I don't remember why...it was a number of years ago) and I got a smokin' deal on the S315WS as it was right before some changes were going to happen.

[Martin Wasner]

Hmm.. I'm not following. Everything else I've read has said a sliding table saw (like the MM SC4/315 I'm considering) is the right tool for the job if I want to work with sheet goods. You're saying that is not the case? Can you elaborate?



Loading sheets onto a slider is a giant pain. If you are just wacking up sheets into smaller squares a panel saw is so much easier on the operator.

Not as capable as a slider, but for its intended use, can not be beat.


https://youtu.be/zg6730eEpzI

[Sean Tracey]

The slider is a very versitile machine. It can cut sheets goods and function like a table saw and can have the shaper function or even other functions in the case of multi-function machines.

He is talking about a very expensive panel saw if you want a specialized machine just for sheet goods.

http://www.wwthayer.com/Striebig-Compact-Vertical-Panel-Saw-002.asp

[Martin Wasner]

This (http://www.irsauctions.com/popups/bidders_paddle.asp?lot=345371&auction=8BYSU1HJ1GKJJN14XAZVZ9TFIKLC6F&id=20212) one sold for $8200. They can be had reasonably on the used market.

[James Zhu]

For the life of me I can't figure out how to even get pricing on Hammer equipment. The Euro machinery company marketing and websites are abysmal.

Here you go, Felder eShop has hammer machine price. If you want Felder saw, you have to talk to sales guys.

http://us.feldershop.com/en-US/en-US/Sawing/Machines/

[James Zhu]

They definitely do not have the "customer is always right" mentality that we have in the US! I finally gave in and "registered" on Felder's website (for access to the videos), and they sent me some email inquiring about what I was looking for (and I just deleted it - whatever). Promptly 3 days later, they emailed me and chided me for not replying to their earlier email!

If you just want to watch videos for Felder machines, there is a youtube channel

https://www.youtube.com/user/helfel01

[Steven Wayne]

Does the 8.5' SC4 that I'm considering have enough capacity to rip a 97" long sheet of MDF on the wagon?

[Ralph Butts]

Steven,
I was considering the SC4 and a S315 several years ago just as you are. I went with the S315. In my case the reasons were as follows:
1. longer stroke for ripping a full 8' sheet with no concerns
2. in my case the SC4 was previously owned less than 6 months (plus for the SC4)
3. I snoozed on the SC4 and someone beat me to it
3. I got a smoking deal from MM for a new S315
4. arbor size

In the end it was the stroke and the 1" arbor that made the difference for me. I would make the same purchase again today! It does a great job on sheet goods but that is the obvious. Much easier for me than wrestling a sheet on some jig or the floor with my Festool track saw. Really need to sell that thing. The saw performs equally phenomenal on solid stock. With a good blade and technique I don't even use my JP for edge jointing any longer. Best of all no kickback and the digits are safe and sound because they are no where near the blade. Also take a look at making or getting a parallel ripping jig. There are several examples here on the creek. The shaper does add a great deal of versatility but I went with a separate. A fellow creeker added a CI router table to his S315 (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?54500-Project-Router-Station-For-Sliding-Table-Saw&highlight=s315). I was about to go that route when I located the shaper I wanted.

[James Baker SD]

Hmm.. I'm not following. Everything else I've read has said a sliding table saw (like the MM SC4/315 I'm considering) is the right tool for the job if I want to work with sheet goods. You're saying that is not the case? Can you elaborate?

It's really frustrating, it is near impossible to get a good idea of the use and application of the Euro machines, the model differences, who carries what, where to buy, which used machine is good or bad choice, on and on..

I sincerely appreciate everyone's input!

Does the 8.5' SC4 that I'm considering have enough capacity to rip a 97" long sheet of MDF on the wagon?

When I was in the hunting mode, I flew 500 miles to see a Felder KF700 in action. Owner met me at the airport, took me to his house. We sawed and shaped away for 2 days (he graciously hosted me for the stay) and then he returned me to the airport. I flew home sold in my mind it was the right tool for me. Cost of Southwest airfaire kind of got lost in the noise of the total purchase.

8.5' table is not optimal for 97" panel. Sooner or later you might want air clamps, especially if you are a one man shop, and they take a little room at each end of the table.

Also, for what it is worth, my saw (a 9' table) sits in a half of a two car garage that houses 2 cars. A bit tight, have to back the car out to work, but it is doable.

James

[Steven Wayne]

James,

I'm up early to spend the day going to visit an owner of one of the machines I am considering buying. I could not be happier about the opportunity to see one before I buy it! Big smile on this guy's face this morning!

[Bill Sutherland]

I also have two MFT tables but what makes cutting panels so easy is I also have the Walko table and I have it in the full extended mode leaning against my mobile lumber rack. When I need to cut a panel I simply roll the rack to the back of the truck and slide the panel out of the truck and onto the Walko and start cutting just as you would on a panel saw. No lifting of the panel, just slide it onto the leaning Walko table and it couldn't be faster, more convenient or cheaper. Each cut panel is easily stored on the rack since it is what the Walko is leaning on. A added benefit to the Walko is can have the shelves installed and it acts as another cutting surface/storage etc and it's mobile since it's on the lumber rack.

[Steven Wayne]

Well.. Thanks to an awesome Creeker I was able to check out a Minimax slider in person. I'm waiting on a call back to finalize my order- 10.5' Si315 Elite-S. To those that said 8.5' isn't enough length on the wagon for working with full sheets (97" long) of MDF, THANK YOU! I would have been beyond disappointed when I found out the reality of how little room that leaves for clamping.

Now to wait two months for it to arrive..

[Jim Becker]

Does the 8.5' SC4 that I'm considering have enough capacity to rip a 97" long sheet of MDF on the wagon?

Yes, it does. But it's tight.


Congrats on your S315 order! Great machine!

[Steven Wayne]

I've read tons of threads about sliders. One thing I'm wondering about.. Suggestions on blades? I was thinking a Forrest WWII for hardwoods and their blade for plywood/MDF. I welcome any suggestions on blades. And slider related stuff in general.

Thabk you!

[David Zaret]

i use Tenyru blades on my slider. i personally wouldn't look any further. incredible quality.

my machine uses the 350mm blades with 30mm arbor/pins... considered "industrial sliding table saw" on the Tenyru catalog. not sure what yours uses, but i can't recommend them highly enough.

-- dz

[David Kumm]

My take on sliders is as follows. I like either a 10' or a 4' slider. Longer is always better when your only saw. If you only do furniture work, 4' is plenty long as you don't use sheet goods and you can easily rip using the fence. Any other size slider rips using the sliding table as the subtable sticks out in front making fence ripping awkward. Heavier is also better if you intend to move the machine around or throw sheets of mdf or heavy stuff on it. A slider that loses settings is a bad dream. Moving them requires a good enough build to not change the relationship between the sliding and cast table.

Scoring is good, especially if the scorer can be raised and lowered easily and not by turning a screw in the table. Lever with stops is better. A table lock that has multiple settings and can be easily accessed. Some are so hard to get to when the slider is extended as to be useless. I like the sliding table extrusion to be thick enough that the T slots have some meat to them. Air or manual clamps put stress on the slot and you don't want to deform the table.

Blades are more about finding a good sharpener than make. I have Forrest, Leitz, FS Tool, Gladu, and others. No real difference in quality, just sharpening. If you have a scorer, I like the utility blade ( Forrest WW2 type ) and the crosscut blade to have the same kerf and plate if running a split scorer. Makes adjusting the scorer easier. If you have a conical you need stops to set them for different blades.

Crosscut fence must be easy to install and set itself at 90 without additional fiddling. Not all systems work well in doing that. Stops should be stout and if the fence is a standard extrusion that is even better than a proprietary design. Good luck with that.

Nice if start stop are located where you can reach them when you have the saw loaded.
If you can deal three phase you are way ahead in looking for used. Large heavy saws with three speeds are cheap in comparison to single phase 12" new. Dave

[Jim Andrew]

I bought Tenryu blades from Carbide Processors, they have blades with the right size arbor hole and the pin holes to fit the Hammer, or Felder saws.. Best blades I have ever owned. As far as wrestling sheets, I have a rack to lay my sheets flat, and built a cart, similar to a shopping cart so I can slide the 3/4" sheets out of the rack, onto the cart, and roll them up to the rear of the slider, and push the sheet onto the saw table, or the wagon. I just rip to width using the rip fence, then turn the piece and use the sliding table to crosscut. The 80 tooth Tenryu blade, I have found, can rip the sheet to width and then crosscut it without chipping the end, even without the scoring blade.

[Tom M. Schmidt]

I'm using a Woodworker II on my CU300, no complaints.

[mark mcfarlane]

Well.. Thanks to an awesome Creeker I was able to check out a Minimax slider in person. I'm waiting on a call back to finalize my order- 10.5' Si315 Elite-S. To those that said 8.5' isn't enough length on the wagon for working with full sheets (97" long) of MDF, THANK YOU! I would have been beyond disappointed when I found out the reality of how little room that leaves for clamping.

Now to wait two months for it to arrive..

Can someone please explain specifically why the extra 6" of clamping space on an 8.5' slider is 'not enough'? Is there enough room with minimax's manual clamps? Is the problem only with aftermarket air clamps? Is there a creative way to extend the wagon a few inches on each end to affix clamps? Is the problem having to remove the clamps to get a 8*4 panel up on the sled? Please share your specific issues.

I am still laboring over a short or long slider, and jumping to 10.5' I think is going to throw me into a short slider and tracksaw workflow. Although I have many initial sheet good projects planned: to build out my shop, a room-sized walk-in closet, and maybe some kitchen cabinets (I may keep the current boxes), after that (first 2-3 years of slider use) it will be most smaller items for the next few decades and the thought of navigating a huge slider and outrigger ...

Thanks.

[Steven Wayne]

Can someone please explain specifically why the extra 6" of clamping space on an 8.5' slider is 'not enough'? Is there enough room with minimax's manual clamps? Is the problem only with aftermarket air clamps? Is there a creative way to extend the wagon a few inches on each end to affix clamps? Is the problem having to remove the clamps to get a 8*4 panel up on the sled? Please share your specific issues.

I am still laboring over a short or long slider, and jumping to 10.5' I think is going to throw me into a short slider and tracksaw workflow. Although I have many initial sheet good projects planned: to build out my shop, a room-sized walk-in closet, and maybe some kitchen cabinets (I may keep the current boxes), after that (first 2-3 years of slider use) it will be most smaller items for the next few decades and the thought of navigating a huge slider and outrigger ...

Thanks.

It was a thread you started (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?230923-Slider-lengths-too-long-or-too-short) that got me questioning if 2600mm (~102") wagon was long enough for 97" sheet goods. The squaring fence is ~2" thick. That leaves 3" for clamping if the squaring fence is at the other end of the wagon. To me, that is just not enough flexibility. The 3200mm (~126") wagon is the right size for a 97" work piece in my opinion. I do understand that guys with 102" wagon sliders use them to rip full sheets on the wagon. For me, I want the ability to use air clamps one day as well. I know I won't regret the 3200mm machine I ordered.

[Brian Lamb]

I will second the Tenryu blades, and they are worlds above the other blades I have ordered, Felder and Guhdo out of the box. I have never found a re-sharpener in my neck of the woods that is worth bothering with, so I'll run blades until they are dead and buy a new one.

As for slider length, the 8'6" sliders are just not enough for any clamps at all. I have a 9' slider and using air clamps, I have to position the outrigger just so, then hang the bases of the air clamps about halfway off the slider at each end and then I can rip 8' sheets, so any shorter than 9' is just asking for trouble... that's if you want to clamp work down.

[mark mcfarlane]

It was a thread you started (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?230923-Slider-lengths-too-long-or-too-short) that got me questioning if 2600mm (~102") wagon was long enough for 97" sheet goods. The squaring fence is ~2" thick. That leaves 3" for clamping if the squaring fence is at the other end of the wagon. To me, that is just not enough flexibility. The 3200mm (~126") wagon is the right size for a 97" work piece in my opinion. I do understand that guys with 102" wagon sliders use them to rip full sheets on the wagon. For me, I want the ability to use air clamps one day as well. I know I won't regret the 3200mm machine I ordered.

Thanks Steve for reminding me of this thread. It seems that maneuvering large sheet goods onto and around the slider is one of the main reasons for the extra length beyond 8'. That and the extra room for air clamps.

[Erik Loza]

This is just my opinion, so feel free to accept or reject as you like: I personally would not get too wrapped around the axle about an 8.5' slider possibly "not having enough room for clamps", or whatever. In other words, I would be careful to not put the cart in front of the horse. Sure, longer is always better on sliders but if we're talking about statistics, 99% of the owners I've sold sliding panel saws to have never inquired with me about a second panel clamp, told me the 8.5' slider "was not long enough", or even asked about pneumatic clamping systems.

I'm not dissing accessories like this. Mac Campshure of Airtight Clamps is friend and former colleague. In fact, I have a link to his Youtube channel on my Minimax site if you go into my colleague, Sam's shop, you will see a whole lot of DIY add-ons to his 10.5' Elite-S but, how many and what type of clamp do you see on the these machines?...

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/ShopCU300Smart.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/SamanticsElite-S-1.jpg

..But there's a second eccentric clamp on the wall so surely, you must use two, right? Yes, for this type of thing...
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Settingupforcopestick-1.jpg


..But you always must use a a hold-down clamp when ripping sheet goods, right?
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/PanelRiponslider.jpg

So, "yes", buy as much slider as you have room and the money for but if someone is crossing an 8.5' slider off their list because they're concerned that they might not be able to effectively process sheet goods or something along those lines, the track record (at least among my customers) has not supported that. As always, just my 2-cents.

Erik

[John Lankers]

Erik, I agree with you in every regard. The exception is when a panel goes "potato chip" on you and starts to walk over top of the saw blade, that's where hold downs on both ends are very helpful for accuracy and safety.

[Joe Jensen]

I can't argue with Eric on his experience with customers but I wonder if they are mostly first time buyers. I did a ton of researching and nearly every owner I talked with was either;
1) glad they went with a 9ft or longer
2) wished they had gone with a 9ft or longer
3) bought a shorter one first and upgraded to a longer one.

They also pointed out that most of the used higher end home shop sliders are shorter and they said that those are from people who upgrade. I have air clamps on both ends and I think they are one of the most important upgrades in my shop. My slide is 2800mm.

[Brian Lamb]

Anybody professing to think that eccentric clamps are good enough, hasn't done 300 repetitive tenon cheek cuts in an afternoon and wondered about surgery on the hands the next day.... Air clamps are not only for sheets, they are almost more advantageous for the solid stock items a furniture maker is doing.

I made my first clamps 15 years ago and I still use them every day, almost every cut in the shop, not only to they save a lot of wear and tear on the operator, but you get to keep all of your fingers...

[Steven Wayne]

I'm already wanting pneumatic clamping. I know it. Is the only pre-built solution airtightclamps?

Looking at the Tenryu GM-30560 Gold Medal blade..

[Brian Lamb]

Felder sells their version of air clamps. There was also a Felder member who had a machine shop make a few sets, he might still have some for sale.

[David T gray]

I'm already wanting pneumatic clamping. I know it. Is the only pre-built solution airtightclamps?

Looking at the Tenryu GM-30560 Gold Medal blade..

the kerf on that blade is smaller then the riving knife

[Erik Loza]

Anybody professing to think that eccentric clamps are good enough, hasn't done 300 repetitive tenon cheek cuts in an afternoon and wondered about surgery on the hands the next day....

Brian, you're saying that the standard eccentric-type clamp that SCM (and every other mfr. out there) supplies for their sliding table saws are wholly unusable and that you must have a pneumatic system in order to be usable or to be safe? Just trying to be clear on what you're trying to say.

Erik

[Steven Wayne]

the kerf on that blade is smaller then the riving knife

Is the riving knife 0.125"?

I'm not finding a Tenyru blade that will fit the machine - 12" 1" arbor .125 kerf 60T

[David T gray]

Is the riving knife 0.125"?

I'm not finding a Tenyru blade that will fit the machine - 12" 1" arbor .125 kerf 60T

i was wrong its .111 or 2.8mm so it will just barely work

[Jim Becker]

I've read tons of threads about sliders. One thing I'm wondering about.. Suggestions on blades? I was thinking a Forrest WWII for hardwoods and their blade for plywood/MDF. I welcome any suggestions on blades. And slider related stuff in general.

I continue to use the WW-II 40T 10" blades that I owned prior to buying my S315WS since they fit and continue to perform well after many sharpenings. I'll probably replace them with 12" equivalents when they eventually wear out. I did need to buy a second riving knife and grind it down to keep it just below the height of the 10" blade, however. I also have a 12" sheet goods blade that came with my saw and it also performed well. I do not recall the brand. That one does need to go in for sharpening, however.

[Brian Lamb]

Brian, you're saying that the standard eccentric-type clamp that SCM (and every other mfr. out there) supplies for their sliding table saws are wholly unusable and that you must have a pneumatic system in order to be usable or to be safe? Just trying to be clear on what you're trying to say.

Erik

Hi Erik,

Not saying they are "wholly unusable", please don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. What I said is they are not good enough (in my opinion) for times when you do a lot of repetitive clamping in short order. I originally designed and built the air clamps because I had just done an arts and crafts style coffee table with two end tables and by the time I got done with all the tenons it was well over 300. The speed increase alone, let alone the relief from the stress on my wrists and forearms from locking/unlocking that eccentric 300 times was well worth it.

Just because the "standard" clamp from Minimax, Felder, Hammer, Robland and a host of others is an eccentric, doesn't mean it's the best... it means it's an economical clamp that the builders can get away with supplying on their machines without the customer's botching about too much. I have been a moderator on the Robland forum for over 20 years and on the Felder Owner's Group for over 15 and the number of folks dissatisfied with the eccentric clamps is not a small number, hence the sales of the Airtight clamps Mac makes, the sales of the Felder Pneumatic clamps, Martin, and Altendorf both have them as options. So while they are not a necessity, they sure make life a lot easier and a lot safer.

The safer part comes into play because the pneumatic clamps are much easier to use than the eccentric clamps (no fussing with exact height to get the proper amount of cam over) so therefore most folks are more inclined to use them rather than "awww... it's just one cut..." and have something fly out or get cut.

So... just to be clear, that's what I'm saying, thanks for asking.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought one of those tall eccentric clamps to use on my Hammer slider, but find one of those automatic Kreg T track clamps works much better for me. Had to cut a steel plate to fit in the track of the Hammer slider table, but just slide the clamp in, squeeze it over the board and it holds tight enough to rip a board. The automatic clamps are cool, just adjust the tension, and it doesn't matter how thick the board you want to clamp is.

[Erik Loza]

...The safer part comes into play because the pneumatic clamps are much easier to use than the eccentric clamps (no fussing with exact height to get the proper amount of cam over) so therefore most folks are more inclined to use them rather than "awww... it's just one cut..." and have something fly out or get cut...

Brian, I hear your points but will just say this for the record: In all these years, I have never had any hobbyist or shop complain to me about an having to "just get by with" a regular eccentric clamp and likewise have never had any customer describe to me any safety incident from them not choosing to use one. If that's the assertion. Not saying that it hasn't or doesn't happen. Just saying that on the list of user complaints or comments I take about sliders and combo machines, that' would be a new one. Things like pneumatic clamping systems are like Aigner accessories to me. Yeah, they're awesome but they're also not free. Sure, Martin, Altendorf, et al sell them because, well, you're buying a Martin or an Altendorf! For example, what would you charge a shop for one of your setups? $1,500? $2K? Sure, we'd all love to have something like that but it's not like the machines is unsafe if you don't have it.

What I was trying to say, and maybe it didn't come across the first time, was that I encourage owners to try the machine out with the stock equipment and THEN decide if they need to spring for the pneumatic setup. You can always buy it later, right? If we're going statistics, most won't. But if it's something a customer wants, then should absolutely get them. It's your machine and you should do what you want.

Getting back to the plain 'ol clamp-thing, I have never personally found using/moving/adjusting the regular clamps to be any hassle at all but do suggest putting a little square of leather between the clamp and the workpiece. This is simple and keeps the clamp from shifting the workpiece as it tightens down, won't mar the workpiece, is cheap and easy, etc.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i315/erikloza/Mini%20Max%20Combo%20Seminars/Slotmortising.jpg

Erik

[Jim Becker]

For a production shop doing a lot of repetitive clamping, pneumatics can certainly be a boon. For the rest of us, the OEM clamps do do the job.

Erik, I like the leather idea, although I just usually use a piece of scrap 1/2" plywood.

[Warren Lake]

in the past I did some low volume work where I was told I needed a CNC machine to do the work, I worked it out ignored that statement.

I set up a clamping system taking the clamps off my blum hinge machine, two clamps held the part and a floor pedal turned the clamps on and off, this allowed for both hand placement of the material. I put 80 grit stick on sandpaper from autobody rolls on the ends of the clamps. The blum clamps were simple and small but still worked very well and it was fast and convenient. I had tried toggle clamps at first but waste of time and annoying but it also depends how much you are clamping and how fast between machining.

On the photo that shows the mortise being cut on my machine I do the 80 grit under the clamp on that as well, it works fine, I dont really like those clamps as they rotate and you cant control the length of the arm up to the clamp.

[Joe Calhoon]

Eric,
Thank you for posting the picture of the guy running end cuts on the shaper. That is a real good example of why the eccentrics are weak and shows poor and unsafe shaper use on several levels. We get a lot of first time and hobby shaper users to our workshops along with pros. I hear a lot of complaints about the eccentrics especially with shapers. After they see and use the pneumatics they can see the night and day difference. True, I would not recommend new buyers on a budget to run out and buy clamps right away. It is an option that will add a huge level of safety and accuracy to sawing operations and I consider pneumatics a must have for any door and window end cuts on shapers. Early on we had shop built shaper sleds with Destako type pneumatics and even those are a far cry better than eccentric and not that expensive.

The problem with eccentrics is even when using a spacer block to set it its very difficult to achieve the right pressure and you will always get sideways movement at times with these. Too much pressure and you can twist a lightweight sliding table and too little will cause slippage. A 3" X 3" wood block with sandpaper screwed to the shoe of the clamp will help. The better eccentrics come with holes in them for this purpose.

As far as slider length. We started with a new 10' SCM slider after many issues with that saw we went to a 8 1/2' 20 year old Martin. We used it for several years building whole house projects of cabinets, millwork and doors. There were only a few times the 8 1/2' was a issue. At the time we did not have any or know about clamps for the slider. So yes you can get buy without but after using them I could never go back. We now have a 10' plus Martin and every once in a while run into something that caused the Festool saw to come out. I do think you could get by nicely with one clamp on the front of a 8.5 slider.

Here are some examples where eccentrics could be very dangerous for shaper use.

336262336263336264336265

[Brian Lamb]

Brian, I hear your points but will just say this for the record: In all these years, I have never had any hobbyist or shop complain to me about an having to "just get by with" a regular eccentric clamp and likewise have never had any customer describe to me any safety incident from them not choosing to use one. If that's the assertion. Not saying that it hasn't or doesn't happen. Just saying that on the list of user complaints or comments I take about sliders and combo machines, that' would be a new one. Things like pneumatic clamping systems are like Aigner accessories to me. Yeah, they're awesome but they're also not free. Sure, Martin, Altendorf, et al sell them because, well, you're buying a Martin or an Altendorf! For example, what would you charge a shop for one of your setups? $1,500? $2K? Sure, we'd all love to have something like that but it's not like the machines is unsafe if you don't have it.

What I was trying to say, and maybe it didn't come across the first time, was that I encourage owners to try the machine out with the stock equipment and THEN decide if they need to spring for the pneumatic setup. You can always buy it later, right? If we're going statistics, most won't. But if it's something a customer wants, then should absolutely get them. It's your machine and you should do what you want.

Getting back to the plain 'ol clamp-thing, I have never personally found using/moving/adjusting the regular clamps to be any hassle at all but do suggest putting a little square of leather between the clamp and the workpiece. This is simple and keeps the clamp from shifting the workpiece as it tightens down, won't mar the workpiece, is cheap and easy, etc.


Erik

Well, maybe because I have been moderating user groups not associated with the builders for so many years, but the "eccentric clamp issues" posts come up on a regular basis.... my eccentric clamp pushes the material, how do I get it to be the same level of tight every time, how tight is tight enough... and the list of complaints goes on.

As Joe posts, there are times when I sure wouldn't trust the eccentric clamps and his pictures of the little raised panel would make me a bit concerned too, even with air clamps, but I don't like shapers very much.

Several more advantages, using an air clamp gives you consistent clamping pressure on any thickness of material up to the stroke of the cylinder, from 0" to 4" in my case, so I never have to readjust anything for different material thickness. I can also, with a twist of my regulator, hold gently enough to not squish polystyrene insulation (I use a hot wire cutter on my Felder for cutting up packaging materials for our woodworking accessories) to clamping so hard (at 100 psi) that the clamp pads will dent into softer woods.

As for cost, you can build a set of two for probably under $400 to $500 depending upon where you buy the parts. Given the overall expense of these machines, I don't see that as a big expense, especially if you are ever trying to make money with your machines, the cost of the clamps will be paid for in faster through put in short order, like days....

[David Kumm]

I used eccentric clamps for years on the shaper but always used a second clamp to fist lock stock to fence. Not needed with pneumatics. With a long slider, it is a pain to go around to the back side of a panel to access one or the other. I agree that the cost can add up but there are a lot of parts and fittings involved. People have no issue paying an additional price for a SS. Good accessories should be part of a machine budget. Even a low volume guy can appreciate stuff like Aigner shaper fences and pneumatic clamps.336266336267 Short stroke and long. Dave

[Warren Lake]

I dont have a slider and know I would benefit from it for a few reasons. I looked at one a few weeks ago and thought ripping stock would be annoying, too much of the part that holds the sliding carriage would prevent me from standing where I want to stand. I get the outboard stop thing now that ive seen all the posts, had never seen that before. Ive had to machine stuff longer than a slider could take over the years up to 14-16 feet long and the jointer was best for that. realize that was a smaller portion of all the material ive machined.

The little raised panel I would run on a power feed with a belt not wheels, it works perfect Keeping constant pressure on the piece where wheels would be useless. 3/.16 piece of metal at the bottom of a piece of wood clamped onto the shaper fence for the piece or any raised panel to run on. Ive never had a pnuematic clamp fail but I have had parts slip in them if they are under a certain amount of resistance. Some of the clamps ive used are built better than others so know there is a quality difference in them as well.

[Steven Wayne]

One month into waiting on the slider to get here. The waiting is the hardest part. Looking like it will be to me mid July..

[Andy Giddings]

I know the feeling, 2 months into the wait for mine and its due August :-( Nothing like setting up a new machine in an uninsulated double garage in the middle of a Texas summer :-)

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I used a Sicar 10' slider - with two decent cam clamps - for 21 years. In 2010, I replaced it with a new Griggio C45 (also with a 10 foot carriage) and used the provided cam clamps for a few years.

After seeing some saws with the pneumatics- I wanted to try them, but not wanting to spend that kind of $$... Being somewhat handy, I bought some cylinders, valves, and made up a pair of my own clamps (one sits permanently in front of the cross cut fence, and one I use when needed at the rear of the table. Both have their own valves.

Total cost was under $400, with the control valves, Festo fittings and such being the bulk of the cost.

The Griggio is used as a panel saw (I have a 5HP SS ICS as the other saw in our shop currently) for cutting up sheet goods. I find the rear pneumatic clamp very handy, especially for melamine which tends to have some stresses in it, and more likely to shift a wee bit during the cut.

For cross cutting, I have made it a rule both for myself and the employees to ALWAYS use it. It is so much safer, and with the pneumatic control set on the end of the panel support arm (within easy reach of whatever cut you are doing, full sheet or not) it becomes second nature to activate the clamp before every cut.

Once you use this type of clamp, going back to a cam style would be very difficult IMO. And, if you are somewhat handy (and have some basic metal fabrication tools) you can make something up VS buying, and save quite a bit of $$.

By the way, I might be a bit "different"... lol but I wouldn't want to be without either of my saws. I couldnt run the business without the slider, but I love the 5hp Sawstop as well. Nice saw, gets used prob a few hours every day by everyone and has impressed me in the 5+ years its been earning its keep in the shop. Big slider is nice - but some things are just so much easier on a small cabinet saw.