How perfect should we expect tools to be?

[William Adams]

Bought a set of the perfect handle style parallel tip screwdrivers from Lee Valley, ’cause I needed cheering up and they had free shipping.

Was unfortunately disappointed when I got the set:

- ferrule on the carbide scraper was loose
- handles seem to’ve shrunk after machining or the person doing the finishing pressed too hard ’cause the metal bits stand proud of the wood in most places (I think it’s a little of both, ’cause the metal bits are sharp-edged)
- there seems to be some sort of wood filler or putty used to fill in around the edges of the wood, and in some places the wood has shrunk so much it’s become rippled and uneven
- there was a minor flaw in the metal in one place, and a few others where the metal of the handle was faceted, rather than perfectly curved

Customer service of course was very polite and very graciously sent out a second set which had been inspected --- mostly the second set is better, but fundamentally it’s the same, the handles don’t fit perfectly, they’ve shrunk, the metal stands proud and there are flaws in the wood. Also, the ferrule on the second scraper is also loose.

Am I expecting too much?

In retrospect, what I’m seeing is much like to the comment which JRTW made on Christopher Schwarz’s blog post of 30 January 2013:


I was recently at The Woodworking Show here in MA and while at the LV booth looked at this set. I always like the look of the perfect handle drivers and I love the one I have from my grandfather. However after picking them up I will not be getting the LV set. Maybe it was just the set they had at the booth but the wood scales were poorly fit to the handles and loose, also the metal of the handle was very sharp and bit into my palm. Now some will say that it is just the booth set and a ton of people handle them so they won’t be as perfect was when they come out of the box. However that is my point. If the wood gets loose and shifts enough to expose sharp edges of the metal just from people picking them up and holding them, what will they look and feel like after a couple of years of daily use actually driving screws?

I suppose I could keep a set and re-handle them — this would sort of make sense, since I want them as companions to my pair of Starrett 559A & Bs, but I’m not wild about having to do this to a new tool.

[Rich Riddle]

I think we have the right to expect perfection at a particular price, but not from a particular brand. Lee Valley rebadged a Chinese import at an inexpensive price with this product. One gets what he pays for despite the names given to products. If you expect perfection then you will have to step up to a manufacturer similar to that of your Starrett precision pocket screwdrivers.

[William Adams]

Yeah, good point. I did mention that in the initial e-mail exchange, noting that the Starretts were far more expensive, and that I’d be willing to pay the difference for a perfect set. I guess it’s luck of the draw getting a perfect set w/ well-seasoned handles, and typical for my luck that I’d get not dried ones twice.

I wish that they’d mentioned that they were Chestnut Tools brand though, but they were up-front about the import status.

[ron david]

I have seem them over the years stress accuracy in their literature. one mans accuracy may not be another mans. one should also note who their main customers are.
ron

[Chris Padilla]

It is usually directly proportional to the price one paid and value expected. :)

[Rich Riddle]

One mans accuracy may not be another mans.
ron
Good point. I am a wood butcher and happy with far less accuracy involving wood tools. My friend who is a machinist and does woodworking as a hobby has a difficult time accepting tools and tolerances I find entirely acceptable.

[Frederick Skelly]

I'm probably the odd man out here, but I expect a tool from a quality vendor to arrive in flawless condition, if I'm buying a mid-range or high-range item. If the vendor has a problem with their source, and enough people send the product back, the problem will be corrected or the company will select a new supplier for that item.

LV markets those as quality products and they charge a fair price for them ($43). You are not being unreasonable and they'll certainly understand that.

Call me difficult (or worse), but I once sent back some tools from Woodpeckers because the anodizing was scratched when I received them. I want what I paid for. I'm not buying this stuff from a certain vendor of low end import tools.

[Myk Rian]

Leave a comment on the LV product page to warn others of your experience. That's the only way they'll fix their game.

[William Adams]

I think my expectations were too high for this price point. I'm returning the pair, and ordering instead a pair of small Canadian-made tools which I'm sure I'll be pleased w/. At some point in the future, when I find a perfect bit of wood, I'll order a third set and re-handle it (but w/ my luck, the handles will be perfect, third time's the charm and all that).

In the meanwhile, I've ordered an Elemen'tary Design No. 1 Screwdriver with Interchangeable Bits from Hand Eye Supply. This will work out well w/ a set of Fix It Sticks which I just got for my laptop bag, and a weird gimbaled driver I got from Garrett-Wade.

[Jim Koepke]

It is cases like this where the marketing department could save the company a lot of grief by just including on the web page information about the origin of particular items.

To me if the tool was fit and could be fettled to my liking then it would be sanded and finished to my expectation.

Even the premium tools I have bought have had a touch of my own enhancements added.


Now some will say that it is just the booth set and a ton of people handle them so they won’t be as perfect was when they come out of the box. However that is my point. If the wood gets loose and shifts enough to expose sharp edges of the metal just from people picking them up and holding them, what will they look and feel like after a couple of years of daily use actually driving screws?

Actually as a tool is handled more the rough spots would tend to become 'wear' polished. Most likely the set was just a box grabbed from inventory. I do not think the folks at Lee Valley would spend time looking for a set that did not represent what customers should expect.

jtk

[Erik Loza]

It is cases like this where the marketing department could save the company a lot of grief by just including on the web page information about the origin of particular items....

You have no idea how much I wish this were the case with the Euro machinery manufacturers.

Erik

[glenn bradley]

I would just return them and make them aware why. I tried some screwdrivers from Lee Valley (I buy a lot of stuff from them and most of it is great), I don't even see the ones I bought offered anymore so that's good. Like the OP's experience, they were junk. I let Lee Valley know how much I enjoy their products and how disappointed I was that they would even consider offering the particular product at any price. That is not the level of quality I expect from LV but, the marketing dinks win one every now and then no matter how careful you are.

[william watts]

Many items in the usual tool catalogs or online sites do not have brand name. They are nameless manufactures located somewhere on this planet. The sellers rely on their own good reputation to sell these lower quality products.

I ordered some Nicholson files a few years ago from a display ad in a well known catalog. The files arrived in good order, but one was stamped "made in India " no brand name. I checked the ad, the banner said Nicholson, the price list all said Nicholson except for a few, those were mystery manufactures. If you want good tools probably should stay away from unbranded products, still a dice roll sometimes.

[Rich Riddle]

Hopefully your next set meets expectations. There is no "savings" that will make you happy when quality seems inferior.

[Jim Koepke]

I would just return them and make them aware why. I tried some screwdrivers from Lee Valley (I buy a lot of stuff from them and most of it is great), I don't even see the ones I bought offered anymore so that's good. Like the OP's experience, they were junk. I let Lee Valley know how much I enjoy their products and how disappointed I was that they would even consider offering the particular product at any price. That is not the level of quality I expect from LV but, the marketing dinks win one every now and then no matter how careful you are.

Like almost every other business Lee Valley is in it to make money. They have the Veritas line of products that is their high quality flagship. Unfortunately it is difficult to be a successful business in today's world with just one product line.

There are a lot of items on the Lee Valley web site that I would not expect to find made to the same standards as items from the Veritas line.

One example is their Chestnut line with items like a 'Losable Knife:'

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=70307&cat=1,51222&ap=1

jtk

[William Adams]

Yeah, but they don't show the lid of the box, which has Chestnut Tools on it in silver, nor does the word import, or People’s Republic of China appear on the product page (though for some reason, I was aware they were imported).

Ah well, looking forward to my Plane Screwdriver and Pocket Marking Gauge (though I'm wondering if I should've gotten the 3-in-1 Brass Marking Gauge instead).

And, I should find an Elemen'tary No. 1 Screwdriver waiting for me at home.

[Rich Riddle]

Yeah, but they don't show the lid of the box, which has Chestnut Tools on it in silver, nor does the word import, or People’s Republic of China appear on the product page (though for some reason, I was aware they were imported).

Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me, but I tend to presume all items are Chinese unless there is written evidence to the contrary. Most retailers of items not made in China will gladly advertise that fact.

[Marvin McConoughey]

True, ten years later here in June 10, 2023, but I have bought some Chestnut tools that impressed me and that I still cherish. I almost bought the Chestnut Perfect Handle screwdriver set but now am glad I did not. I believe that Lee Valley no longer sells the Chestnut brand.

[Edward Weber]

Just as in the recent thread (Am I the Jerk Here?), You should expect what you paid for, no more, no less.
Loose parts, poor fit and finish should be unacceptable in all but bargain basement price points.
Good customer service is nice but you should not have to need it as often as we seem to these days.

The only way to change is to speak up and tell them you're not satisfied. There are plenty of other vendors that will gladly take your money.
Brand loyalty only lasts as long as the brands quality.
JMO

[Warren Lake]

The saying is you get what you pay for. Sayings are nothing more than that

having dabbled in different crafts ive got lots of tools for them, ive modified stuff that should have worked better, told manufacturers who have changed their stuff,.

My 500.00 tool belt is cut and modified 5 -10 times.

trimmer issues on one common sense my usual barrage of emails then new product with good changes and and

My saying is "you get what you paid for, Hopefully"

Then we can get onto used stuff and how its represented compared to what it really is.

[Brian Runau]

I have reached a point with China made products, I am not buying them when I can avoid it. Problems with Barcalounger chairs, frost free sillcocks, etc... Brian

[Edward Weber]

I have reached a point with China made products, I am not buying them when I can avoid it. Problems with Barcalounger chairs, frost free sillcocks, etc... Brian

The only thing is, it's not China who's at fault.
It's the greedy American company that want's more profit, so they outsource to a less expensive labor market and all but forget about quality control.
The Chinese only make what they're contracted to make and they can make anything you ask them to, so why the low quality? Maybe ask the parent company.
If your favorite tool brand starts making things in China, no problem, if the quality slips, problem.
JMHO

[Bill Howatt]

The only thing is, it's not China who's at fault.
It's the greedy American company that want's more profit, so they outsource to a less expensive labor market and all but forget about quality control.
The Chinese only make what they're contracted to make and they can make anything you ask them to, so why the low quality? Maybe ask the parent company.
If your favorite tool brand starts making things in China, no problem, if the quality slips, problem.
JMHO

Yes, it's the price/quality specs set by the company purchasing from the Chinese manufacturer. If the Chinese can make things for their space program and the other high-tech stuff they sure can make something as simple as a woodworking tool or domestic items of good quality.

[Stan Calow]

Oh no, I just gave a set of these screwdrivers as a gift to a friend. They looked good in the box, but I did not inspect them.

[Stan Calow]

Perhaps it's just the pessimist in me, but I tend to presume all items are Chinese unless there is written evidence to the contrary. Most retailers of items not made in China will gladly advertise that fact.

Absolutely. Although I dont always assume that Chinese means poor quality, just cheaper.

[Warren Lake]

more to it than just tool quality. They dont have a good track record for Fentenyal, wiggers and used to run a full shift making knock offs auto parts and more. Sam Cooper wrote the book wilful blindness, not read it but sure some of that is in there from radio shows ive heard of him talking about it. he been investigating I think back to 2015.

I end up doing a ton of tree work and using these Felco #2 (swiss) trimmers, each time is a joy. I could have got something for a quarter the price but rather not support them.

[Alex Zeller]

It's not just tools. When I hit my 10 years working for the company I'm at now they gave me a list of options for a gift. One of them was a nice set of flatware that the wife liked. It was name brand (can't remember the name now) so that's what I picked. It was complete junk. Several of the forks were cut wrong. The tines (or prongs) were cut wrong to they came to a sharp point. Several people poked themselves with them so recycled the set. The steak knives had plastic handles and the blades loosened up after a year or so. We already had a much nicer set so these were only used when we had lots of company over and needed extras. As the blades loosened up I would toss the knife. When I was down to 3 I tossed the rest. I don't think being made in China is the problem. I think it's a lack of good quality control. China will make anything you want in what ever quality you want. The better the quality the more it costs.

[Bill Dufour]

I believe there is a USA law that any advertising has to state country of origin. No one seems to enforce that law.
Bill D

[Edward Weber]

I believe there is a USA law that any advertising has to state country of origin. No one seems to enforce that law.
Bill D

COOL

https://www.shippingsolutions.com/blog/country-of-origin-labeling

it seems like the best you get these days is the "assembled in USA from global sources"

It would be nice to know where products come from for many different reasons.

[Patty Hann]

With Lee valley I've noticed that if it made in Canada or Japan it says so (did someone already mention this?)
But if no CC is listed I ask, because the [unmentioned] COO isn't always China or Taiwan; sometimes it's India or Pakistan.
And for all I know they may even use Mexico.

[dennis thompson]

The only thing is, it's not China who's at fault.
It's the greedy American company that want's more profit, so they outsource to a less expensive labor market and all but forget about quality control.
The Chinese only make what they're contracted to make and they can make anything you ask them to, so why the low quality? Maybe ask the parent company.
If your favorite tool brand starts making things in China, no problem, if the quality slips, problem.
JMHO

I wouldn’t agree that just because a company “ want’s more profit” that it’s “ a greedy American company”.

[Edward Weber]

I wouldn’t agree that just because a company “ want’s more profit” that it’s “ a greedy American company”.

Profit first over quality, it could be a greedy (insert name here) company.
Profit is great, just don't swindle the customer to get it.
I'm not trying to single out the U.S. but it's where I live. Not too many U.S. tool companies left that can say with a straight face, Made in USA. There are plenty of made in china tools with U.S. parent companies that still advertise as if their product is the same as always.

[Edwin Santos]

Yes, it's the price/quality specs set by the company purchasing from the Chinese manufacturer. If the Chinese can make things for their space program and the other high-tech stuff they sure can make something as simple as a woodworking tool or domestic items of good quality.

To support your point, somehow Apple's products are made in China to amazingly high standards of quality in every respect. Even the packaging.
I would love to a behind the scenes documentary on how they do it. Probably proprietary though.

[Edwin Santos]

Profit first over quality, it could be a greedy (insert name here) company.
Profit is great, just don't swindle the customer to get it.
I'm not trying to single out the U.S. but it's where I live. Not too many U.S. tool companies left that can say with a straight face, Made in USA. There are plenty of made in china tools with U.S. parent companies that still advertise as if their product is the same as always.

I think you might be able to point to the increasing role of private equity and hedge funds as a contributing cause of what you describe. More and more, these types of owners are looking to the stock market or mergers/acquisitions as their path to making money, not customers.
In the past, more companies wanted to cultivate a relationship with the customer. Today the attitude is more about the transaction than the relationship.

Plus, we seem to be more of a disposable society so there's a question of whether there is a point where the quality level is higher than the (average) customer seeks. Its hard to deny that most people are very price sensitive.

[Edward Weber]

I think you might be able to point to the increasing role of private equity and hedge funds as a contributing cause of what you describe. More and more, these types of owners are looking to the stock market or mergers/acquisitions as their path to making money, not customers.
In the past, more companies wanted to cultivate a relationship with the customer. Today the attitude is more about the transaction than the relationship.

Plus, we seem to be more of a disposable society so there's a question of whether there is a point where the quality level is higher than the (average) customer seeks. Its hard to deny that most people are very price sensitive.


I totally agree

[Keegan Shields]

I think you might be able to point to the increasing role of private equity and hedge funds as a contributing cause of what you describe. More and more, these types of owners are looking to the stock market or mergers/acquisitions as their path to making money, not customers.
In the past, more companies wanted to cultivate a relationship with the customer. Today the attitude is more about the transaction than the relationship.

Plus, we seem to be more of a disposable society so there's a question of whether there is a point where the quality level is higher than the (average) customer seeks. Its hard to deny that most people are very price sensitive.

Boom. Here’s the playbook -

1. Buy a company with a valuable, respected brand name earned over many years. If the company is under valued or has struggled recently, even better.

2. Load it up with debt, strip out “unneeded” expense, introduce new product lines with a lower price point where consumers assume the quality of the brand will be the same and will pay extra.

3. Grow short term profits! (also lots of brand damage) and since the people running it are paid bonuses on quarterly or annual growth, they make a boat load.

4. Sell it to a sucker, or maybe declare chapter 11 and then sell it to the next PE firm, or run it into the ground and sell off the parts.

I’m curious what effect the rising interest rates will have on what you point out. Extremely cheap loans enable riskier bets. My guess is higher interest rates will make the PE people more selective. In other words, the potential profit of an opportunity now has to include a more expensive loan.