Kerosene vs. Neatsfoot Oil

[ken hatch]

I've always used Kerosene on my oil stones. It has worked well but I will always pay attention to how the "old guys' did things. Most of the time if you can figure out how they worked it will be the best way, amazing what several centuries of passing knowledge to the next generation will do. Anyway I saw an offhand mention of Neatsfoot oil as the best honing oil, it was kinda written as an aside as if everyone knew that.

Bottom line I ordered a jug and have been using it. Does it work better, I don't know, but the iron feels good on the stone and my guess is it is better for my hands.

Any thoughts?

ken

[Jim Koepke]

Any thoughts?

When people have a strong feeling about something it can get to the point of them becoming almost evangelical about their preference.

There are probably some good and valid explanations as to why one oil may be better for honing than another.

When it comes to kerosene, I am not sure the kerosene of today is the same as the kerosene of 30 or 40 years ago.

Some of the home made blends may be better for the combinations of stones and metals a person uses.

For me, mineral oil works. Maybe if it had a little thiner in it the stone would abrade the blade a little quicker. Maybe it would change the ability of the oil to float away the swarf causing less stone clogging.

Is there an absolute 'Gold Standard' of honing oil to put all the others to shame? Is there any scientific study to back up the claim?

I feel like the 'Settler' in that TV commercial. Mineral oil is cheap and easy, why change without some tangible evidence?

jtk

[ken hatch]

Jim,

I don't know if it is the Creek or me but lately after typing out long, thoughtful, and humorous posts and replies, posts that Samuel Clemens would be proud of, when I click the "Post Quick Reply" button they, the replies, disappear never to be seen again. Maybe the Creek thinks they were too long winded to be a "Quick Reply", I don't know but bottom line here is a pedestrian version of the earlier, longer reply:

I think you are correct, kerosene has changed and is "drier" than the kerosene we used on the farm so many years ago. The same author did mention kerosene as a good cleaner of swarf clogged stones. Which begs the question: "Why not kerosene all the time"?.

ken

[Curt Harms]

Jim,

I don't know if it is the Creek or me but lately after typing out long, thoughtful, and humorous posts and replies, posts that Samuel Clemens would be proud of, when I click the "Post Quick Reply" button they, the replies, disappear never to be seen again. Maybe the Creek thinks they were too long winded to be a "Quick Reply", I don't know but bottom line here is a pedestrian version of the earlier, longer reply:

I think you are correct, kerosene has changed and is "drier" than the kerosene we used on the farm so many years ago. The same author did mention kerosene as a good cleaner of swarf clogged stones. Which begs the question: "Why not kerosene all the time"?.

ken

I don't know much about oil for sharpening stones but here's a thought re disappearing text. When I'm creating a lengthy online post I use a text editor or word processor. Get it the way I want it then copy/paste. Go easy on the formatting, that may not transfer but text and paragraphs should.

[Frederick Skelly]

Interesting topic Ken. Thanks for posting. I'm looking forward to reading all the replies.

[Pat Barry]

...amazing what several centuries of passing knowledge to the next generation will do.
I agree with that thought process completely. That's why I always default to the modern way!

OBTW - whats is Neatsfoot oil? I don't recall ever seeing a Neat. Are they extinct?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Doesn't kerosene stink? Isn't it flammable? I never understood the desire to use it for oil stones.

[William Adams]

Neat was an Old English word for cattle, and the stuff (if you can get the real stuff) is an oil rendered down from cattle shin bones and feet.

Last couple of times I've looked for it in a store it always has petroleum products in it, so I've passed, but the bottle I have from my father's estate is about empty....

(I only used it on leather goods myself, but like the idea of using it on a sharpening stone and will have to try that once I can secure a reliable supply).

[Warren Mickley]

The reason we use oil on an oil stone is that the oil suspends the steel particles and keeps them from clogging the stone. There is really no need to clean the stone if an appropriate weight oil is used; we wipe dirty oil off the tool after sharpening and we replenish with clean oil.

Water is not appropriate for an oil stone because it is not viscous enough to suspend the particles. And liquids like WD 40 and mineral spirits are of similar viscosity to water and work poorly. Kerosene is also too thin. In addition these volatile liquids are also irritants, they are alright for occasional use but not something you want to breathe all day.

Honing oil is made from mineral spirits, but it is quite different from the cheap mineral spirits we buy elsewhere. Mineral spirits is not a pure chemical, but a mixture of oils of various weights. In use the lighter oils evaporate leaving behind a heavier gummier oil that can clog. Honing oil, while of similar viscosity, has the heavier and lighter oils removed so that it does not get gummy when left on the stone for long periods.

Neatsfoot oil, sperm (whale) oil, and olive oil are traditional oils which have been used for oil stones. Olive oil is mentioned in Roman times and also by Moxon (1678).

[george wilson]

I hate the smell of neats foot oil,and prefer to stay entirely away from it. It stinks!!! I don't like the residual smell of the stuff on cloths used with it,on my hands,etc..

When we made the 18th. C. fire engine,the original 18th. C. "instructions" were to soak ox leather in neats foot oil to use it to make the clapper valves. I gave it a try,but really hated the stuff.
If your stones are not porous like India stones are,I prefer to use a few drops of detergent in water. It works just fine. I use Spyderco ceramic stones,and start out with a diamond stone if there is enough "damage" to the cutting edge to warrant that much metal removal. But,the detergent/water mixture will work on any stone that is not so porous as to instantly soak up the water.

There is nothing MAGIC about which stuff you use when honing. All it does is float away the particles of steel,to keep them from clogging the stone up. That's it,period.

I have noticed in professional woodworking shops,where they use India slips to touch up HSS molding cutters,they just leave the India slips soaking in a coffee can of kerosene. Kerosene in that case would be better than a water solution because no crud GROWS in it. No mold,etc.. I AM NOT CRAZY about using kerosene myself,because I don't know if it might help arthritis get started. Turpentine is bad to sink into your hands,and I used plenty of it in the old days. These days,turpentine is not the same. You have to buy genuine turpentine in art supply stores,and pay big bucks for it.

Exactly what I do is this: I keep a 1/2 pint "laboratory" plastic squeeze bottle with a bent spout on my bench. I nearly fill the bottle with water,then drip about 4 drops of dish detergent unto the water. I used to also add a few drops of water soluable cutting oil(Aqua Cut,to be exact). However,I have no Aqua Cut available at home,and haven't bothered to order any from Manhattan Supply Co.. But,the simple water/detergent mix works just as well as far as I can tell.

You can buy cheaper versions of the laboratory squeeze bottles from Harbor Freight. They are a bit thinner,and have straight up spouts rather than bent down ones. The straight up spouts probably are better to use,because the bent down ones drip unless you are careful to let all the water drain out of them by tilting them backwards when setting them down. I bought a 2 pack from harbor Freight for $1.99,I think. I haven't started using them yet,but will get around to it. I can't vouch that they might not crack from being squeezed many times,but they seem the same plastic as the USA made ones. Just thinner. I have a USA made lab bottle because I was given one years ago. If they crack in use,I'll warn you all about it.

[ken hatch]

Neat was an Old English word for cattle, and the stuff (if you can get the real stuff) is an oil rendered down from cattle shin bones and feet.

Last couple of times I've looked for it in a store it always has petroleum products in it, so I've passed, but the bottle I have from my father's estate is about empty....

(I only used it on leather goods myself, but like the idea of using it on a sharpening stone and will have to try that once I can secure a reliable supply).

William,

The jug I received from Amazon has no listed petroleum products and is sold as 100% Neatsfoot Oil.

ken

[William Adams]

Yeah, guess that’s another thing I’ll need to break down and buy from the magical land at the other end of the FedEx truck...

[Al Launier]

I don't know much about oil for sharpening stones but here's a thought re disappearing text. When I'm creating a lengthy online post I use a text editor or word processor. Get it the way I want it then copy/paste. Go easy on the formatting, that may not transfer but text and paragraphs should.

Ditto! Much more certain of retaining the message.

[bridger berdel]

from the msds for kerosene:

Potential Acute Health Effects:
Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of
skin contact (permeator). Severe over-exposure can result in death.
Potential Chronic Health Effects:
Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer). CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. MUTAGENIC EFFECTS:
Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available. DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Not available.
The substance is toxic to the nervous system. The substance may be toxic to blood, kidneys, liver, central nervous system
(CNS). Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage. Repeated exposure to a highly
toxic material may produce general deterioration of health by an accumulation in one or many human organs

[steven c newman]

Now, recite the one for WD40...as it is also Kerosene..

[bridger berdel]

on stones that aren't highly porous I use isopropyl alcohol in a spray bottle. it works very well for meon most stones, including diamond, arkansas, coticules and others. it doesn't work on any stone that wants to soak, of course.

[Steve Rittmeyer]

I use a mix of Kerosene and Mineral Oil.

I find the kerosene cuts fast but doesn't carry away the swarf well. The Mineral Oil carries away the swarf but doesn't cut as fast.

Experience finds the best mix. If I feel like the stone is getting clogged too quick I add oil to the mix. If the cutting is too slow I add more kerosene.

I mix it in a squeeze ketchup bottle.

I use baby oil, which is scented mineral oil and is usually cheaper that mineral oil.

The combined scent of baby oil and kerosene is the "smell of sharpening" to me.

--steve

[Mike Wasson]

I agree with that thought process completely. That's why I always default to the modern way!

OBTW - whats is Neatsfoot oil? I don't recall ever seeing a Neat. Are they extinct?

Neatsfoot oil is a yellow oil rendered and purified from the shin bones and feet (but not the hooves) of cattle. "Neat" in the oil's name comes from an old English word for cattle. Neatsfoot oil is used as a conditioning, softening and preservative agent for leather. In the 18th century, it was also used medicinally as a topical application for dry scaly skin conditions.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Trombone slide oil is a good viscosity and does not smell bad. Plain water doesn't work all that well, but slightly soapy water also works fine on an oilstone, though of course it encourages rust.

[Jim Koepke]

Trombone slide oil is a good viscosity and does not smell bad.

Looking into this it seems there is as much variance on what to use on a trombone slide as there is on an oilstone.

jtk