Edges with a shooting plane?

[Mike Holbrook]

I am enjoying my new Veritas Skew Rabbet plane with the skewed blade. It seems to handle most grains better than a regular straight blade, especially if the job requires the plane to move in a prescribed way across the wood, like for dadoes, chamfers, raised panels and edges.

I realize that the Shooting plane is designed especially to work end grain. I am curious, however, as to whether or not it might work well to "shoot" board edges as well as end grain? I have been searching older posts on shooting, edges...and not finding actual discussion of this topic. I found an HNT Gordon YouTube video where he uses a long board/shooting board on his bench to shoot edges with.

I have read some older posts which suggest that learning to make flat edges on boards with a jointer plane is a learned skill set worth spending the time to master. I am investing time in improving my skill set further. I do find that when I have been working rougher boards with cambered plane blades, requiring fast deep cuts and then switch to trying to flatten the edge that I have a tendency to get a little fiesty and run into problems making edges.

I was at the Atlanta Woodworking show recently and got to use the Veritas: Skew Block, Shooter, and the new Miter Plane. I liked them all. The Miter plane has a straight blade and although I liked it, the straight blade and curved edges on the sides proved a little more challenging when trying to use it on a shooting board.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Mike

The LV/Veritas Shooting Plane has a BU configuration, which maximises the low cutting range. This is ideal for end grain. It is not ideal for edge or long grain where there is a risk of tearout. It does fine with straight-grained timbers. The LN #51, which is BD, is better suited to interlocked edge grain, since the cutting angle is higher and it has a chipbreaker (that can be set).

I think that you need to decide where your priorities lie. Most shooting I do is on endgrain. Where there is a need to joint edge grain, such as thin (1/4") panels, I set them up on my bench, and shoot them with a jointer.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/OneStepBack_html_m15577872.jpg

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/OneStepBack_html_3c67e8a7.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Eisenhauer]

I have never considered that sandwich-style setup for 1/4" material Derek. Thanks for the idea on handling (for me) a troublesome task. Good stuff.

[Jim Koepke]

I realize that the Shooting plane is designed especially to work end grain. I am curious, however, as to whether or not it might work well to "shoot" board edges as well as end grain? I have been searching older posts on shooting, edges...and not finding actual discussion of this topic. I found an HNT Gordon YouTube video where he uses a long board/shooting board on his bench to shoot edges with.

Did you find this old post?

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?43195

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

Derek,

I was thinking about adding a plane or two to my free shipping order at LV. You just had to toss another plane into the mix ;-) I have the Veritas BU jointer, but I do have a Custom #4, which I ordered with a 42 degree frog, thanks to your research. Probably correct, I need to decide what I will use the most. Like you I prefer single purpose tools, at least until it comes to spending money. I suspect if I had a shooting plane I would use it often, even though the investment seems relatively high for "just" shooting end grain. I know I will use the Skew Block frequently.

Jim,
I missed that thread on all my searches, searching which finds each word separately is a little hard to find info. with. Thanks for that link. I did find your comments and links on several other post which I also found valuable.

Got to go pick up a 6x6 and work on some hand rails...

[Patrick Chase]

I am enjoying my new Veritas Skew Rabbet plane with the skewed blade. It seems to handle most grains better than a regular straight blade, especially if the job requires the plane to move in a prescribed way across the wood, like for dadoes, chamfers, raised panels and edges.

I realize that the Shooting plane is designed especially to work end grain. I am curious, however, as to whether or not it might work well to "shoot" board edges as well as end grain? I have been searching older posts on shooting, edges...and not finding actual discussion of this topic. I found an HNT Gordon YouTube video where he uses a long board/shooting board on his bench to shoot edges with.

I have read some older posts which suggest that learning to make flat edges on boards with a jointer plane is a learned skill set worth spending the time to master. I am investing time in improving my skill set further. I do find that when I have been working rougher boards with cambered plane blades, requiring fast deep cuts and then switch to trying to flatten the edge that I have a tendency to get a little fiesty and run into problems making edges.

I was at the Atlanta Woodworking show recently and got to use the Veritas: Skew Block, Shooter, and the new Miter Plane. I liked them all. The Miter plane has a straight blade and although I liked it, the straight blade and curved edges on the sides proved a little more challenging when trying to use it on a shooting board.

Yes, you can do it. Three remarks:

1. The default bevel angle on the Veritas Shooter is indeed low for long grain, but it uses the same blades as the low-angle jack and low-angle jointer. If you have either of those then you undoubtedly have higher-angle blades on hand.

2. As Derek notes a cap iron would be ideal (and I've been tempted to get a 51 for that reason), but your Skew Rabbet doesn't have one either, so if you're happy with the results you get from that then getting similar performance from the shooter is a simple matter of bevel. The skew rabbet is 45 deg, which means that a 33-deg secondary bevel will get you where you want to be.

3. The shooter works really well for this sort of thing with a jointing board, which is basically a simplified and lengthened shooting board specifically for long-edge work. LV briefly goes into using the shooter that way in its instructions (click the "instr" link next to the button that you would use to order one), and you can also find plenty of examples by searching.

EDIT: The Harry Strasil post that Jim linked shows how to build a classic jointing board. The shooter will work great on that with a suitably beveled blade, as will many other planes. Sorry I didn't spot that before posting.

[Reinis Kanders]

If you have LA jack than you are all set for the long grain shooting. It works like a treat and is pretty ergonomic. LA jack has made it possible for me to resist the call for a dedicated shooting plane:)

[Patrick Chase]

If you have LA jack than you are all set for the long grain shooting. It works like a treat and is pretty ergonomic. LA jack has made it possible for me to resist the call for a dedicated shooting plane:)

You're missing out on two things:

1. Skew. The shooter has 20 deg of blade skew, which greatly smooths out entrances to end grain cuts etc. While I've argued before that the 1-2 deg of skew that you can achieve on an angled shooting board doesn't do much for cutting forces (and others have very different opinons), there's no debate about the benefits with the much larger amount that the shooter provides.

2. Adjustable tote. The ergonomics are a lot better IMO, though you can somewhat offset that by making a hot dog handle for your jack.

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike, you might have seen me do this in the same way as Derek, I like to shoot edges with a jointer plane on thin stock.

[Reinis Kanders]

I am sure it is nicer, just have not felt the need to take care of another plane for a very limited need. I often just shoot on a bench hook with the small bevel-up smoother right after cutting, even that tiny plane seems to be good enough. Square is over-rated anyways:) I mean square ends. They usually end up being tenons or what not.
I am tempted by that plane, no doubt.


You're missing out on two things:

1. Skew. The shooter has 20 deg of blade skew, which greatly smooths out entrances to end grain cuts etc. While I've argued before that the 1-2 deg of skew that you can achieve on an angled shooting board doesn't do much for cutting forces (and others have very different opinons), there's no debate about the benefits with the much larger amount that the shooter provides.

2. Adjustable tote. The ergonomics are a lot better IMO, though you can somewhat offset that by making a hot dog handle for your jack.

[Pat Barry]

For most situations a regular jack plane would suffice nicely for shooting edges of boards. Just keep in mind the grain direction. Save the skew planes for the end grain work.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yes, I have the LA Jack, BUS and BU Jointer. The Shooting plane using the same blade is one of the reasons I was interested in it. It was very nice to use at the Wood Show.

No one seems to mention the Skew Block for some reason. I liked using the skewed blade on end grain and long. The scoring spur on both the block and Rabbet planes probably helps with tear out, when used. The Skew Block seemed very comfortable to use.

[John Schtrumpf]

...No one seems to mention the Skew Block for some reason...
Ah the pea-shooter, yes I have used my skew block for shooting small pieces, and if you make smaller projects it can be useful. For rabbets, the limitations of the fence are apparent. For narrower rabbits it needs a thicker fence block (I have made one). Also because the fence is short, you have to be careful to not round over the ends. I clamp my boards aligned with the edge of the bench to avoid that. I also have used my skew block to raise the panel for a clock face board and to bevel the edges of rabbeted raised panels using an angled fence block.

Edit: I forgot to mention I use it as my main block plane, but you have to be careful of the exposed blade edge (I have the LV/Veritas left skew block).

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for your thoughts John. I am wondering why you got the left hand version? The only thing I could see is the right hand looks like it works best from right to left and the left hand from left to right? Mostly due to where the scoring spur needs to be. My current bench has the tail vise on the right side so I was thinking Right handed version. Standing at the right front corner of my bench I am convenient to the vise handle and would probably work best from right to left. Then if I am using the face vise, mounted on the left front of the bench maybe the left hand version works better?

I have had the Veritas LA block plane for many years and use it quite often. I have the big knob and rear handle for mine which do not make it very compact, more of a #1-#2 size. I am thinking about leaving the big knob and handle on my LA and using the skew as the more mobile/main block plane. I use the block on construction lumber frequently. Things fit better with relieved edges. I would probably use the Skew Rabbet, Small Plow and/or Router Plane for rabbets, dadoes...

[lowell holmes]

I would probably use the Skew Rabbet, Small Plow and/or Router Plane for rabbets, dadoes...

I have not thought much about it, but I have both Skew Rabbet planes. I know what I will use for shooting.:)

[Patrick Chase]

I have not thought much about it, but I have both Skew Rabbet planes. I know what I will use for shooting.:)

To use the Skew *Rabbet* for shooting you'd need to make an accessory cheek as Derek did for the Jack Rabbet. The Skew *Block* can be used as-is because it has a cheek on one side (though I've never tried it as it seems small to me).

[lowell holmes]

I typically shoot with my Low Angle Jack. It requires no mods to use as such. It has mass and length. It also does a nice job on cross grain.
I don't know what an accessory cheek is, but I do have a shooting board that I can set on my bench in a moment, plane the edge or 45 degree bevel and put it back under the bench in less time than it takes to think about it.

I have a Paul Sellers design shooting board.

[Mike Holbrook]

Lowell, I would be interested in more info/link to Paul Sellers shooting board.

I ordered the Skew Block plane and decided to wait on the dedicated shooting plane for now. I know many here "survived" with the Veritas LA Jack for many years. I will continue to use the LA Jack, and work on my edge making hand skills for now. If I need to do long edges I will follow Derek and Brian's plan for a temporary jig for a jointer.

[lowell holmes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ypbvcxb-8M

https://paulsellers.com/2012/01/shooting-boards-revisited/

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/ShootingBoard2.pdf

Ask and you will receive.:)

IIRC, it was in a magazine article. I will look for it.

[John Schtrumpf]

Thanks for your thoughts John. I am wondering why you got the left hand version?...
On the skew block planes, left does not necessarily refer to handedness, but to the side that the blade protrudes from. I am right handed, and I got the left skew block plane, so that I could shoot holding it in my right hand, with the exposed blade edge up. When using the fence for rabbets or when I raised a panel, I hold/cradle the plane in my right hand and push away from myself. When I put the bevels on rabbeted panels, I made the fence so that it rode on the top of the board (not the edge), there I push the plane right to left.

I also have the LV/Veritas low angle block plane (with knob and traditional handle), I keep it configured with the chamfer jig.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I shoot edges with a high angle iron in a Veritas shooter. I shoot the most wild grains this way with no issues. Although I have moved back to the camp that believes the chip breaker makes high angle planes better for tricky grain, there is no problem shooting edge grain with a high angle blade in a bevel up plane. In fact, one of my future plans is to build a monster shooting board for truing up edges on rough sawn planks that I frequently use- much easier to take a small tool to the board than to bring a large board to the tool.

[Chuck Hart]

I have a LV Shooter and all I can say is BU skewed blade and HEFT make for fine edges. Oh and a PM-V11 blade to cut with. That is the best feeling when cutting end grain.

[Patrick Chase]

I shoot edges with a high angle iron in a Veritas shooter. I shoot the most wild grains this way with no issues. Although I have moved back to the camp that believes the chip breaker makes high angle planes better for tricky grain, there is no problem shooting edge grain with a high angle blade in a bevel up plane. In fact, one of my future plans is to build a monster shooting board for truing up edges on rough sawn planks that I frequently use- much easier to take a small tool to the board than to bring a large board to the tool.

The other question to ask is: How often do you actually shoot cosmetic long-grain surfaces?

A BU plane like the LV shooter may require a relatively high cutting angle to avoid tearout in some cases, and that degrades the surface finish a bit. The argument in favor of BD planes with cap irons is that they allow you to achieve similar tearout control with lower cutting angles and thus better surface quality. Even if we accept that as true (and IMO it is), it simply doesn't matter if you're just shooting long edges so you can glue them up, or if you can take a swipe with a finely set smoother to clean up the surface after jointing/shooting (I would argue that shooting is functionally just a fixture-assisted form of jointing - let the flames begin!).

That's the point I was trying to make in #6 - Even if it's not ideal, the shooter navigates the tearout/"glassiness" tradeoff as well as any other BU plane and IMO better than most because of skew.

[Patrick Chase]

I have a LV Shooter and all I can say is BU skewed blade and HEFT make for fine edges. Oh and a PM-V11 blade to cut with. That is the best feeling when cutting end grain.

Agreed that it works spectacularly on end grain, but the topic of this thread (per OP's post) is shooting along the grain.

[Lenore Epstein]

On the skew block planes, left does not necessarily refer to handedness, but to the side that the blade protrudes from. I am right handed, and I got the left skew block plane, so that I could shoot holding it in my right hand, with the exposed blade edge up. When using the fence for rabbets or when I raised a panel, I hold/cradle the plane in my right hand and push away from myself. When I put the bevels on rabbeted panels, I made the fence so that it rode on the top of the board (not the edge), there I push the plane right to left.

I also have the LV/Veritas low angle block plane (with knob and traditional handle), I keep it configured with the chamfer jig.
Thanks for explaining this--I'm left handed, but it sounds like I might want a right-handed plane (of this type, anyways) for the same reason--if I do ever buy one.

[Mike Holbrook]

I bought the right handed Skew block plane. I am right handed. I typically work right to left, with my fence on the edge of a a rabbet, or chamfering/relieving the edge of a board. I believe this puts the scoring wheel and exposed edge of the plane on the inside side of a rabbet. I guess it all depends on how you set up your work and where you use the fence.

[lowell holmes]

Here is a picture of the one I made.

336329

[Mike Holbrook]

I guess the flat top edge on the body of a Bedrock plane could ride within a rail holding the plane in exact position. The curvy top of many planes tends to wally more, especially without an outside rail.

I like the removable fences too. I imagine by the time the fit loosens up the fence will be worn/ready to be replaced any way.