Which Waterstones?

[Sam Chambers]

With my newfound interest in hand tools, I'm trying to decide on the best way to keep them sharp. I have a Makita 9820-2, but I'm not all that happy with it for sharpening chisels and plane irons. I do like the results from the waterstones on the Makita over the sandpaper "Scary Sharp" method. A Tormek is definitely out of my price range.

So, I'm thinking of switching to waterstones for chisels and plane irons. I've done some reading and there appear to be differing opinions on what grits to use. I'm thinking of a set of 4 stones - 800, 1200, 4000 and 6000 grit, plus a nagura.

Questions:

1. Is the 6000 really necessary, or will the 4000 be enough? I want good, sharp edges, but not overkill.

2. How do you store your waterstones? My shop time is rather limited, maybe one day a week. It is safe to store them in water over long periods?

3. What about a honing guide? I have the original Veritas guide, and it always wants to slip no matter how hard I tighten it. I like the idea of the inexpensive side-clamp guides, but I'm curious how well they really work.

Keep in mind that I don't want to become a professional sharpener. I'm just a hobbyist woodworker who wants an easier way to keep his tools sharp.

Thanks in advance, as aways.

[Steve Wargo]

Sam, I like the Norton stones. I have a couple of the combo stones. The finest being 8000. For final honing I use a 12000 grit natural Japanese waterstone. Is it necessary. Maybe not. But I rarely skip the final step. IMHO 4000 is not a fine enough grit for final honing. Hope this helps.

[Jim Becker]

When I bought my Ashley Iles chisels from Joel at Tools for Working Wood in NYC, I also picked up a Norton combo 4000/8000 stone to compliment a coarser combo I already owned. So far, it's worked out wonderfully, although I'm not a skilled sharpener and need lots of practice!

[Michael Gabbay]

Sam - I just got into Norton stones this year. I bought mine from Lee Nielsen. I ended up getting the 4000 and 8000 individual stones. I will probably get a 1200 stone later this year. If you get the 8000 you might consider a Nagura stone as well to help the cutting action of the finer grit stone.

I've also heard that the Shapton Stones are really nice. You might want to Call Joel at Tools for Working Wood to get his advice.

Mike

[Dennis McDonaugh]

Sam, it doesn't seem like it would, but the 8000 stone makes a difference, I'd get one too. I've got a King and a Norton and they both do a good job. I've heard Shaptons don't wear as fast as other waterstones, but fast wear is one of the reasons waterstones cut so fast. They are constanly exposing new grit so they cut fast.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Sam,

Your choice of grits is decent. After your edge tools are in good shape, and excepting a bad nick, you'll find much of the time you'll begin at the 4k stone, at least if you do not let the tools become excessively dulled.

I personally think the Kings, as far as waterstones go, are a better bang for the buck in comparision to the Nortons. Nortons, in my experience, wear too fast, especially in the lower grits.

For the last year or so, I have switched to Shaptons as my other stones wore out. The Shaptons do not wear as fast as a waterstone (they are ceramic in a resin binder). They cut more aggressively grit-for-grit than any other stone currently. And, of course, they cost more. I frequently sharpen a lot of edge tools through my work day and for me, getting back to work while using a medium that will last longer is actually a savings in both time and money.

I keep my 2k grit on my bench and in between tenons or surfacing stock I touch up the tool, couple licks and back to work. That's another thing. Shaptons require only a little mist of water in comparision to waterstones, which below 2k grit need to be either stored or soaked in water prior to use. The 4k and up waterstones need a bit of water to start and then a little more as you go along.

With either you will need to consider flattening. There are several methods that work with waterstones. One is drywall mesh, another is a flat garden paver. This doesn't require much money as an outlay.

Shaptons benefit from a different flattening method. They sell a cast iron flattening plate and I use that along with the powders (they also have a special diamond flattening plate. Sit down before you look at the cost). This is an additional cost to the Shapton stones.

King stones (I still have and use a 4k grit) can be had in several grits for around $100 total (I would recommend the larger). The Norton 8k alone is about $75 vs. $45 for the King.

I would also recommend an 8k stone. My personal usage is a 2k, 4k, and 8k. I also have a 1k Shapton for fixing dinged edges, but hardly use it as I sharpen frequently (often while drinking coffee in the morning). The point is that the grains of steel can take nearly an infinite amount of finer and finer abrading. The finer the abrasion, the less striated the edge. This results in a longer lasting edge--the edge retention/edge failure two-sided coin. What we see and fell perceptually is a cleaner cut, a nicer feel to the surface.

Sharpening is always a trade off. We all make a decision as to what we expect and are willing to do to achieve it. I taught a sharpening class today (was suppose to be on hand plane usage and it mutated). For one person, 320 grit paper on their jointer bed was good enough. Fine, here's how to do it. And the result and effort was entirely acceptable to them. Perfect. I don't mind. For others, Shapton may well have sold a 15k stone today. I know one person who swears by their 30k Shapton--that's serious change. I don't mind that either. I am unwilling to spend that much money and effort in sharpening.

I've had too much coffee. I'll quit now <g>. Your choices will work.

Mike

[Tim Sproul]

I'd get the following set up:

Coarse zirconia or coarse Norton 3x sandpapers on granite surface plate for when you kill an edge.

1K and 2K Shapton Pro or Hippos stones.

5K and 8K Shapton Pro stones for polishing or King stones at 4K and 8K. There isn't as much performance difference between Shapton's and other waterstones in the finer grits.

Get some 0.3 micron PSA paper from Joel at toolsforworkingwood.com and stick to another granite surface plate for when you really really really need sharp.

Flattening stones - another granite surface plate and Norton 3x paper. Or splurge and get the Shapton lapping plate and medium grit. You don't need the coarse or the fine grits.

This set up isn't overly expensive and will cover all your straight cutter sharpening needs.

[Dan Forman]

You will get many different answers here, but I went with the Norton combo stones, 1000/4000, and 4000/8000 grits. I was going to get Shaptons, but heard that due to their hardness, they were difficult to flatten without expensive plates. I have since learned that is not that there are other more thrifty measures to flatten them, and if I had it to do over again, I might well go that route. The Nortons flatten very well on drywall screens, and I it will be a LONG time before they wear out. Norton's should not be stored in water, the 1000 grit stone should be soaked for about 30 minutes prior to use, the others just need to be wet during use. They seem to do a very good job considering my sharpening skills.

As to a guide, the side gripping model works fine for plane blades, but mine will not grip my chisels, possibly due to the contour of the Hirsch chisels. I hear they have improved the performance of the Lee Valley guide with the MK2 model, and it seems to have the most versatile bevel setting gage.

Yes, you do need the 8000 water stone IMHO. It only takes a minute to polish up an edge with it, and will be well worth the effort, again IMHO.

You might want to check out David Charlesworth's video on sharpening, will give you some good tips that will save a lot of sharpening time over the years.

Dan

[Derek Cohen]

Sam

Here is another approach.

You need just three waterstones, and I will recommend the Kings, because I know them best and because they are very cost-effective. The three are 800, 1200 and 6000. Yes, a 8000 is better than a 6000, but it cost twice that of the 6000, and I can show you another way to get so close that you couldn't tell the difference. Incidentally, I use an 8000, but I had years of using the 6000.

One further point here, forget a 4000 stone (I do have one) - it is quite unnecessary as you will go from the 1200 straight to the 6000.

The secret to sharpening is to create microbevels. Let us say that you grind a 25 degree bevel using your LV Guide (or, if you prefer, the cheaper Eclipse or more expensive but better LV Honing Guide Mk II). Use the 800 to do so, then add a 1 degree microbevel at 1200, and follow this with the 6000. The width of the microbevel only needs to be about .5mm. There is no difficulty going from the 1200 to 6000 since you are honing so little metal. And the process is Quick!

How to get the 6000 to mimic a 8000? Two ways: First way (more wordy) - the reason a waterstone cuts so quickly is that it constantly releases fresh grit. It does this as long as the waterstone is soft. It is kept soft by water. As you work the waterstone it dries and creates a slurry (or paste). It is this that actually does the sharpening. The more you create, the better you sharpen. This is a strong argument to add a Nagura Stone to the sharpening equipment - nothing more than a "chalky" block that creates the slurry. Frankly the polishing stones do not work very well without these. NOW, if you let the slurry dry and hone in the dry slurry, it will be almost the same as honing at 8000.

Second method: Buy a block of Veritas green honing rouge (Chromium Oxide). Rub this on a piece of MDF, and do you final honing on this.

A couple of last points:

When honing, make sure that the back of the blade (the 1/2" above the bevel is sufficient) is honed to the same level as the front of the bevel -- or don't bother doing the front at all!! "Sharp" is the coming together of two side at one edge. If one side is serrated, this affects the edge.

You asked if 4000 is sufficient. The question is "sufficient for what?". And the answer is a definite "maybe". :) It is not sufficient for a smoothing plane blade, but it is fine for a chisel or a jack or scrub plane. But if you are going to use a microbevel then dont fart around - get the 6000 (or 8000 if you feel flush).

And a last word (yes really): handtools are the best buzz in woodworking, but they are fun ONLY when sharp. Halfway there is not good enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Sam. A lot of differing opinions here and here is one more. For sharpening I recommend a bench grinder for nicks or bevel renewal, a 1000 grit stone, 4000, and 8000, and a method of keeping them flat. You need the 3 different grits of stones for new tools, but on previously sharpened tools [correctly tuned initially] you only need the 1000 and 8000. You need the 4000 on a new chisel for when you are flattening and polishing the back, it is way to big of a jump to go from 1000 to 8000. So for everyday sharpening I think that 3 stones is overkill, but renewing an edge on the 1000 and then polishing it on the 8000 is very fast. I had the Kings and they worked fine but after I tried the Nortons I got rid of the Kings. Peter

[Ken Garlock]

Yes, you do need the 8000 water stone IMHO. It only takes a minute to polish up an edge with it, and will be well worth the effort, again IMHO.

You might want to check out David Charlesworth's video on sharpening, will give you some good tips that will save a lot of sharpening time over the years.

Dan

I agree with Dan. David Charlesworth does have a good video on sharpening.

Another video that I like more is the Rob Cosman's "Hand Planing and Sharpening." Rob uses 2 1000 grit and 1 8000 grit water stones. The second 1000 is used to keep the other 2 flat. As :I recall, he uses either 1000 to sharpen, and the other to flatten it and the 8000. He flattens every time he uses a stone. You can get both the Cosman and Charlesworth videos at the Lie-Nielsen website for $20 each.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Ok, one more for the road.

This is why I both recommend Shaptons and in a 1k, 2k and an 8k. Normally I do use a King 4k, but for this "demonstration," I skipped it. Used is a LV MK.II honing guide. 30 degree primary bevel. The Bahco bench chisels came at 25 degrees. What were they thinking? I guess they thought they were paring chisels...

Picture 1 is of an 1 1/4" Bahco chisel I hammered into concrete--not too much, but it illustrates the efficacy of the Shpatons, and only 3 of them at that. (Well, ok, the lapping plate too. But the stones don't need flattening yet. I spent 3 hours demonstrating sharpening yesterday and flattened them once.)

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/shapton_0001.jpg

Picture 2 is after the 1k stone. Total time 60 seconds. Also taken from the chisel back. Do note that I purposely did not remove all the damage. I "know" how much to leave that will be removed with the 2k. My point is that I want to spend as little time and get back to work when I need to sharpen.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/shapton_0002.jpg

Picture 3 is is the bevel side after 60 seconds on the 2k. The damage is out. nearly all the scratches from the 1k are gone.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/shapton_0003.jpg

Picture 4 is following the 8k stone. Less than 60 seconds and a twist of the micro bevel one setting for several strokes. You can barely see the micro bevel, but it's there. It serves two purposes. First, it strengthens the edge of these bench chisels, and allows a final smoothing out of the scrathes from the previous grits. It's akin to Charlesworth's ruler method for plane blades, but for a chisel on the bevel side.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/shapton_0004.jpg

Picture 5 is of the three stones and end grain shavings of Poplar and Mahogany thrown in.

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/sharp/shapton_0005.jpg

One and a half minutes. Not even worth the time to drag out my wife's Tormek, fill it with water and turn it on. Not even worth fighting my way through the shop to the stationary grinder.

One does not need many stones. The difference between the Shaptons and the cost-effective Kings (and less so Nortons) will come down to three things. First, for me, is speed of sharpening, second is cost and third is wear and subsequent flattening--which isn't that big a deal.

It's all trade-offs. There is no right way. I sacrifice cost for speed--quality being equal between the stones.

Mike

[Roy Wall]

Sam,

I use Norton Stones suggested by the Lie-Nielson method;

2 -1000 stones ($35 each) and 1-8000 stone ($75) ....all Nortons. This system gives me excellent results...as it did LN at the trade shows.....
Call them up and I'm sure they'll give you the lowdown. It's a process. THis system allows you to skip the 4k stone - saves $$, and gives you a better edge.

THe stones are stored in their own plastic cases. ONly the 1k's need a 20+ minute soak.

I use a generic guide - nothing fancy.

Bottom Line- 8k is better than 4k. The Norton stone will last you forever and cut quickly. Shaptons are probably even better - I think pros even use 15000 Shaptons.

PS - Steve Wargo talked me in to a 12k stone purchase for ultimate honing:cool: ...I"ve got the stone (woodcraft); but haven't given it a shot yet!!!

[Roy Wall]

Ken,


Just saw your post........we were at it during the same time..

THis is the same system...it works:D

[Sam Chambers]

Wow, what a load of great information! This is what I love about Sawmill Creek!

What got me turned on to the idea of waterstones was David Charlesworth's article in Fine Woodworking (April 2004). He flattened the stones with 220 grit wet/dry sandpaper, soaked in water, and placed on a piece of 1/2" plate glass. For a new chisel, he started with an 800 grit, followed by a 1200 and an 8000. He ground the initial bevel on a wet grinder at 23 degrees, moving to 27.5 degrees on the 800 grit stone, and a secondary bevel on the 8000 grit stone at 30 degrees. He uses a cheap copy of the Eclipse guide.

I use a 6000 grit wheel in my Makita sharpener, and was happy with the edge I eventually got. The problem was that the tool holder allows the tool to slip a bit, and the edge of the tool rest is too rough to allow for good control, even after filing and polishing with sandpaper. Like I said, I got there eventually, but it was a pain in the....

So, if I'm hearing everyone right, here's a summary:


King and Norton stones are preferred over the "generic" or Japanese stones. Shapton's work faster and require less frequent flattening than the King or Norton stones, but are more expensive.

I need a way to flatten the stones. Either the Lie-Nielsen method or the sandpaper (or screen) method on a reliably flat surface.

I can probably skip the 4000 grit stone if I use a 600 or 8000 to create a micro-bevel. I like Charlesworth's method of pushing the blade 1/8" more into the guide to change the sharpening angle. It's easy and repeatable.

A 6000 or 8000 grit stone - along with a nagura - is preatty much a necessity.

No need to store the stones in water, just to soak the 1000 grit in water for 20-30 minutes before use.

The "cheap" side clamping guides will work, as will the Veritas Mark II.


Thanks again, guys. I do appreciate your input. (And Mike, thanks for the pics!)

[Timo Christ]

Hello,
as a beginner in hand planing, i am planning my sharpening system as well. Your input in this thread is very valueable. I was planning to get a combination diamond stone 600/1200 plus a 6000 or 8000 waterstone. The diamond can be used for sharpening and flattening the waterstone, and the fine stone will only be used for the microbevel. I'm going to buy the Veritas MK2 fixture as well. So far i'm doing scary sharp freehand and the results are OK, but will surely improve a lot.

Do you think the combo diamond plus fine waterstone is a good combination?

Thanks
Timo

[Mike Wenzloff]

Hi Timo,

The DMT 600/1200 and a fine stone is pretty much what I used for on-site work, except the stone was an oil stone (less prone to breakage on-site).

The MK.II honing guide is where you will see the biggest difference as it helps to ensure simple and repeatable results.

Mike

[Tom Jones III]

I really appreciate my DMT 325 grit diamond stone for the initial flattening of plane irons. Since it is not going to go out of flat, you can sit and grind away the back until your mind turns to oatmeal. The other side is 1200 which is great for the start of the sharpening process. I've got a 4000 Norton that I use after that, then an 8000 grit generic Japanese waterstone. I could probably skip the 4000, but I already have it so I use it.

According to books I've read, you can keep the stones in water a long time. Make sure they don't freeze and don't let it turn into a swamp in there.

For flattening the water stones, I've got a marble cutout for a double sink that was given to me. I just set the stone down on the marble and rub. In less than a minute both sides of the stone are flat. I'll bet if you can find someone in the business they'll give you one for free, I'm pretty sure they just throw them away.

[Sam Chambers]

Well, I pulled the trigger last night, and ordered 2 Norton combo stones (220/1000 and 4000/8000) from Lee Valley. I was ordering some other stuff from them anyway, and they had the best prices. I also ordered a granite surfacing plate, a nagura stone and their copy of the Eclipse guide.

Oh, and a stealth gloat...A Lee Valley medium shoulder plane will be in the box too! :)

Thanks again for all the help folks!

[Jim Becker]

Sam...Sam...Sam..."sharp" purchases!! :D

[Alex Yeilding]

I can probably skip the 4000 grit stone if I use a 600 or 8000 to create a micro-bevel. I like Charlesworth's method of pushing the blade 1/8" more into the guide to change the sharpening angle. It's easy and repeatable.
If you can push the blade 1/8" more into the guide to create the microbevel, you definitely haven't got the edge ready for the microbevel step! I strongly recommend pulling from the handle end! :D

[Ed Hardin]

I have the shapton with mini holder and flatener combination. I went to a demonstration where Harrelston demonstrated their use. I have a 1000 ( prefer to get a 2000) a 4000 and an 8000. They will put a super edge on and have far less flattening required. Pricey to begin with but will last a long time for us weekend hobbiest.

[Sam Chambers]

If you can push the blade 1/8" more into the guide to create the microbevel, you definitely haven't got the edge ready for the microbevel step! I strongly recommend pulling from the handle end! :D
Very funny, Alex! :p

[Timo Christ]

Just wanted to follow-up on my planned purchases.
I got the Mk2 fixture plus a 1000/6000 japanese stone (Cerax), and i have a 240/??? combo stone originally used for knives. With these tools i managed to sharpen my starter collection of Anant planes (#4, #5, #77, #9 1/2), two really dull chisels and a couple of knives.
The chisels are razor sharp now, the planes are pretty sharp as well. Planed a Meranti (recycled) board today, no problems at all. The Anant irons are not flat.. i got good results by using a tiny back bevel (Derek Cohen method- inverted honing jig). Also used a microbevel.
The Mk2 works great, wholeheartedly recommended. The stones work good as well. My recommendation would be a 240/1000 combo stone plus a separate 6000 or 8000 stone. The coarse grit is necessary...

Regards,
Timo

[Keith Hooks]

My current system doesn't satisfy me, but it gets me 80% there. Right now I have 200, 1000, and 4000 King stones. I recently acquired a leather strop that works really well for final honing. I'm using plate glass covered with plastic laminate and abrasives for flattening the stones. I can get a pretty good edge with that but I'm planning an upgrade soon.

For one, the plate + abrasives take too long to flatten the stones. I'm just not patient enough to use it. Also, I can't get to a mirror finish with the 4000. It's getting close, but the surface is still dull. I'm planning to upgrade to a 600/1200 diamond plate and a 4000/8000 Norton stone. I'll use the diamond plate for flattening the stones and for initial flattening of plane blades, etc. I'll then use the 1000/4000/8000 waterstones successively and finish with a few strokes on the leather strop (loaded with abrasive). I'm also going to pick up the Veritas Mk II Honing guide. I'm not ready for hand honing yet.

In the process of upgrading I'm going to try and sell my 4000 King. I can't really afford not to, plus it's going to be redundant. I'd like to find a good use for the glass plate & abrasives as well. I hate having things in the shop that aren't being put to use.

Good luck with your decision.

[Derek Cohen]

Keith

Read my reply to Sam about the choice of waterstones. I think that you will be wasting your money, and not get any closer to sharpening nirvana, with "the 600/1200 diamond plate and a 4000/8000 Norton stone" you intend to buy. Just get a 8000 stone and toss the 4000.

To flatten the waterstones, read this thread, in particular my "waterstone board" which uses drywall screen :

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=handtools&file=articles_569.shtml

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keith Hooks]

Derek, thanks for the advice. You're probably right about not "needing" the 4000, but it's actually cheaper for me to get a combination 4000/8000 stone than it is to just buy a single 8000. I'm having to watch my pennies these days plus it makes me feel a little better to have something to span the gap between the 1000 and 8000 stone. The drywall screen idea looks really interesting. I may try that on the coarse stones just so I don't gum up the diamond plate.

[Dan Forman]

The drywall screen works great with Norton's.

Dan

[Michael Gabbay]

Just wondering.... I flatten my 1000 and 8000 Norton with 600 grit wet/dry paper. Is a 220 grit screen too coarse?

I do like the idea of using the screens over paper.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

220 grit drywall screen will work wonderfully on both 1000 and 8000 waterstones.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan Racette]

I always run chisels on the strop with jewelers rouge after the 8000 norton waterstone.

[Matthew Dworman]

Hi Sam,
After trying and using many of the above mentioned methods, I think the easiest method involves just 2 stones: a DMT DUO fine/superfine diamond stone and a Norton 8000 grit waterstone. I have a 4000 grit stone, and the only time I ever "Need" it is when flattening the back of a chisel or plane iron for the first time. The "Fine" diamond stone is roughly 600 grit and is great for getting out nicks and "grinding" a new edge. The "Extra Fine" side is roughly 1200 grit and you can go right from that to the 8000 stone which will only require 5 or so swipes to polish the bevel to a mirror. The 600 grit side is also great for falttening the 8000 stone. Putting a fresh edge on a plane blade or chisel litteraly takes me a dozen or so swipes on the 1200 and half that on the 8000 and your done. I have 2 1000 grit waterstones that I no longer use, and the 4000 grit as I said, I only use between the 1200 and the 8000 when flattening the back of a chisel... I usually put a small "microbevel" on the back of plane blades to eliminate this tedious step using Charlesworth's "Ruler Trick", so again, here I go directly from the 1200 to the 8000..
I try to keep things as simple as possible. I maintain a super sharp edge on all of my tools, but my love is woodworking, not sharpening, thus I want to do it as quick as possible to get back to working wood....

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Well said. Peter