My new 99 cent chisel

[Dave Zellers]

When Lee Valley announced their recent free shipping event, I thought I would buy a 1/8" chisel which I have wanted for a while now.

Then when I was looking through my files a few days ago, I realized I could make one out of an old worn mill file that I never use anymore.

So I ground down the file marks almost all the way- (I wanted to stay as close to 1/8" thickness as possible) tapered it a bit toward the end and then put a 25º bevel on it. This steel seems really hard- it is sharp!

I made the handle from a scrap of 1 1/8" birch dowel and the ferrule from a 3/4" copper coupling which cost me 99 cents. Plus I only used half of it so technically only 49 1/2 cents! I already know I'll use the cutoff on another chisel.

The thinking for this actually started while I was watching Paul Sellers' recent video making light duty cam clamps. I couldn't be happier with the result. Maybe 4-5 hours of work, mostly because I was winging it the whole time.

335792 335793 335794 335795

[Tony Zona]

Did you soften it, work it, reheat and temper the metal?

nice looking, by the way.

[Dave Zellers]

Did you soften it, work it, reheat and temper the metal?

nice looking, by the way.
I wouldn't have a clue how to do that. I roughed out the shape with an angle grinder and cleaned it up on my edge sander then finished it on the WorkSharp. I did burn the very tip but I was able to carefully grind past that point without burning it again.

[Keith Westfall]

It will be hard and brittle. take care with it....

[Dave Zellers]

It will be hard and brittle. take care with it....
Thanks, it might be time to learn a bit more about metal.

[Mike Cherry]

From the side it almost looks like a traditional mortise chisel. Nice work!

[Rick Lizek]

Does that mean your time is worth 20 cents an hour. Actual less considering expendable. Any lateral force and it will snap. Files are much harder than chisels.

[Ronald Blue]

Looks great. One thing I will add is that the tang is much softer and can bend while the body is brittle and can snap as Rich mentioned. Let us know how it works over time. As I recall good files are mid to upper 50's Rockwell "C" hardness scale. The file was a great quick check to see how hard something was. If the file would cut it then it was machinable.

[george wilson]

Files are very brittle,and can blow up in your face if you try any prying motion with them. Even if you heat the files until they turn a spring color of blue,they are STILL brittle due to the high carbon content.

FILES are more like 63 RC in hardness. PLAIN carbon steel,like W1,will be 67 RC when heated orange hot and quenched in water. I have checked just quenched tool steel many times with an accurate Versitron hardness tester I had at work. W1 gets harder than any other tool steel,but is too brittle to safely use. And,it won't hold a decent cutting edge when too hard. The microscopic cutting edge breaks off,leaving the cutting edge feeling like it is dull. When at full hardness,it is very brittle,and needs to be tempered to put some toughness back into it. You trade hardness for toughness when you are tempering any kind of tool steel.

If you go grinding the teeth off,grind well BELOW the depth of the teeth. If you don't,the cyanide used in hardening the files may not be entirely ground away. This will cause spots in the cutting edge that are harder than the adjacent steel. The cutting edge will wear faster where there was no cyanide,and you'll have a wavey looking cutting edge.

That tang looks like a weak spot in your chisel. Be careful or you can break the tang off.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH WORKING FOR 20 CENTS AN HOUR,if you are learning something. I have spent many hours working for less. But,it helped me become the craftsman I am,and really was part of the way I ended up becoming a master craftsman in Williamsburg. Don't EVER think of it as time wasted. That is a bad attitude.

[Luke Dupont]

You can probably temper it some by sticking it in the oven at 450 for an hour or two.

[Luke Dupont]

Welp, you inspired me. I needed a 1/8" chisel too, so I picked up a 1/8" x 1/8" piece of mild steel and made this:

335823
I just filed the bevel, rounded the other end off, and hammered it into an old wooden file handle that I had. I then heated it up until it was red-hot near the blade, and quenched it quickly in ice-cold water. It was *very* soft before I quenched it, but afterwards, I'd say it's in the low 50's rc range now; certainly softer than my Narex chisels, but much harder than it was before quenching, and will hold a decent edge now; long enough at least to chop a mortise or two and do a bit of paring. If you use mild steel, you don't want to temper it after quenching, of course. Just leave it as hard as you can get it from the initial quench.

I guess we're on opposite ends of the spectrum; I've got a really soft chisel to contrast with your really hard chisel ;)

[george wilson]

Luke,it is NOT correct to heat your tool steel to NEARLY red hot. I don't know why you did that. To get the molecular structure of your steel correct,you need to heat the steel to an ORANGE color,which is hotter than just a red color. Ordinary water or oil quenching tool steel needs to be heated to about 1400 degrees F. Red hot in a dimly lit room is only about 800 or 900 degrees. Not hot enough at all. Quench in water,oil,or whatever is called for,at ROOM TEMPERATURE. Quenching in ice cold water is an excellent way to cause cracking or warping or embrittlement. No blacksmith EVER uses ice cold water.

YOU MENTIONED MILD STEEL. mild steel is NOT TOOL STEEL,and does not have sufficient carbon content to harden anyway. Get some W1 or 01(which is the most commonly used tool steel). You must use REAL TOOL STEEL to make a decent cutting tool from.

AFTER you have quenched your steel,sand at least one surface of the chisel to be clean,so you can see the bright metal. Slowly heat the surface until it turns dark brown,and quench it again.

Your chisel may cut SOFT WOOD,BUT,if you want the BEST results and want to get the MOST out of your chisel,follow the instructions I have gone to the trouble to type out. I strongly suggest that you also get a decent book on heat treating tool steel. Tzmura wrote a good little book on the subject. I can't recall the exact title,but noticed that Amazon sells the book. It is not real expensive,but it is an EXCELLENT book.

Know this: There is really ONLY about a 25 degree "window" where you will get the optimum performance out of your tool steel. You had better take this seriously if you want to make good tools. Plus,get some REAL TOOL STEEL!!!!!

[Luke Dupont]

Luke,it is NOT correct to heat your tool steel to NEARLY red hot. I don't know why you did that. To get the molecular structure of your steel correct,you need to heat the steel to an ORANGE color,which is hotter than just a red color. Ordinary water or oil quenching tool steel needs to be heated to about 1400 degrees F. Red hot in a dimly lit room is only about 800 or 900 degrees. Not hot enough at all. Quench in water,oil,or whatever is called for,at ROOM TEMPERATURE. Quenching in ice cold water is an excellent way to cause cracking or warping or embrittlement. No blacksmith EVER uses ice cold water.

YOU MENTIONED MILD STEEL. mild steel is NOT TOOL STEEL,and does not have sufficient carbon content to harden anyway. Get some W1 or 01(which is the most commonly used tool steel). You must use REAL TOOL STEEL to make a decent cutting tool from.

AFTER you have quenched your steel,sand at least one surface of the chisel to be clean,so you can see the bright metal. Slowly heat the surface until it turns dark brown,and quench it again.

Your chisel may cut SOFT WOOD,BUT,if you want the BEST results and want to get the MOST out of your chisel,follow the instructions I have gone to the trouble to type out. I strongly suggest that you also get a decent book on heat treating tool steel. Tzmura wrote a good little book on the subject. I can't recall the exact title,but noticed that Amazon sells the book. It is not real expensive,but it is an EXCELLENT book.

Know this: There is really ONLY about a 25 degree "window" where you will get the optimum performance out of your tool steel. You had better take this seriously if you want to make good tools. Plus,get some REAL TOOL STEEL!!!!!

:rolleyes:

Firstly, I wasn't trying to do everything "by the book," following conventional wisdom and best practices. Why? Because I just needed a very basic, functional chisel for a few specific tasks, and used what I had at hand, which is mild steel.

Now, in regards to quenching, respectfully, you're wrong on a few things. Yes, I did heat it to orange; I should have been more clear there. However, when it comes to quenching, you can (and SHOULD) quench as rapidly and cold as possible when quenching mild steel. Because it is mild, it will not fracture. This will get you a decently hard edge, even with mild steel. Some people even get mild steel into the 56-58rc range by making quenching solutions that they can get to freezing temperatures. And, no, their steel doesn't fracture.

Yes, that's right; you can harden mild steel. You can even harden nails made out of mild steel. It does have carbon content and will become harder than it was previously. High carbon steel will actually become too hard and need to be tempered, as you know, whereas mild steel will not get as hard, but doesn't need to be tempered as a result. Depending on the carbon content, you can get a decently hard edge using mild steel if you quench it aggressively, as I've stated. While it's not ideal for woodworking tools given other available options, mild steel is certainly under-rated and misunderstood these days.

More-over, people have been working wood for long before steel, or even iron was used. Yep; you can make a chisel out of bronze, even. Is it the best chisel available with today's technology? No. But will it work? Sure. Worked for many people, their whole lives, for many millenia. It just necessitates frequent sharpening is all.

I will take it more seriously when I want to make good tools when I have the time and money to focus on that. For now, I just need a chisel that will work for a few odd jobs and small tasks.

[george wilson]

Perhaps someday you will learn about metal.

Please do not tell me,who am a retired master toolmaker,that I am wrong about basic metal work. You are lucky if you got above 35 RC with mild steel. Go your own way. I won't try to offer you any more help from my 60 years of experience.

[Luke Dupont]

Perhaps someday you will learn about metal.

Please do not tell me,who am a retired master toolmaker,that I am wrong about basic metal work. You are lucky if you got above 35 RC with mild steel. Go your own way. I won't try to offer you any more help from my 60 years of experience.

Don't get me wrong; I value and appreciate your advice. If I were trying to make a GOOD tool, I would follow it! But I wasn't trying to make a good tool. I was just making something to make do in the mean-time.

As for my correcting you; perhaps some day you will learn to be more open-minded. There are things that you likely do not know even after your 60 years of experience. Why? Because you learned specific methods for doing things the best way, using modern materials and methods. Nothing wrong with that. But there are ways of working with lesser quality materials and getting the best out of them which are not widely practiced, because we can generally get good quality steel whenever we want these days.

I don't claim to know much about metal working, and I will definitely learn more and go about it the proper way at some point. However, I did do my research on mild steel, and I can pretty confidently say that you're wrong and just following conventional wisdom by people who have never attempted to harden it and write it off because they have better materials available. You will certainly get above 35 RC with mild steel. I can almost guarantee it; though, it would of course depend on the actual carbon content, as that varies across mild-steels. Go follow MY advice; take a few different samples of mild steel, get them as hot as you dare, and quench them as cold and quickly as you can. You can do this with a water/dish-soap/salt solution which you can get below freezing in liquid form. Then, get back with me and share your results! It won't be tool steel, but it will surpass your expectations, and you might learn something.

We have a saying in Martial Arts; even the most experienced, and knowledgeable instructor can learn from a novice.

Edit: Some quenching methods work better on some mild steels than others, apparently. Here's a guy who did a test using several types of mild steel and several quenching methods. You can see that he reached low 50's rc in several cases, as well as 40's: http://paaba.net/Projects/ZWeekendMet.htm

[Patrick Chase]

It will be hard and brittle. take care with it....

That was exactly my reaction as well. Files are often well into the Rc60s (I have some steel ones that are Rc72 and some WC ones that are harder still), and therefore brittle.

EDIT: As usual George said it better. What he said.

[Patrick Chase]

I don't claim to know much about metal working, and I will definitely learn more and go about it the proper way at some point. However, I did do my research on mild steel, and I can pretty confidently say that you're wrong and just following conventional wisdom by people who have never attempted to harden it and write it off because they have better materials available. You will certainly get above 35 RC with mild steel. I can almost guarantee it; though, it would of course depend on the actual carbon content, as that varies across mild-steels. Go follow MY advice; take a few different samples of mild steel, get them as hot as you dare, and quench them as cold and quickly as you can. You can do this with a water/dish-soap/salt solution which you can get below freezing in liquid form. Then, get back with me and share your results! It won't be tool steel, but it will surpass your expectations, and you might learn something.

We have a saying in Martial Arts; even the most experienced, and knowledgeable instructor can learn from a novice.

Luke, I've had my differences of opinion with George, but he's going from more than experience here. The theory supports him extremely well.

One big issue here is that depending on where you get it "mild steel" can be all over the place in terms of composition. It isn't constrained by an AISI standard the way, say, O1 is. Claiming that you can always harden mild steel because it worked once for you is a bit like claiming that all lottery tickets are winners because you once won a couple bucks.

Quenching hardens steels by converting austenite to martensite instead of cementite. Simplifying a bit, that only happens when cementite would have otherwise formed (had the steel cooled slowly), and that means the steel must have at least 0.78% C to harden significantly. Search for "proeutectoid phases" for gory details.

[Luke Dupont]

Luke, I've had my differences of opinion with George, but he's going from more than experience here. The theory supports him extremely well.

One big issue here is that depending on where you get it "mild steel" can be all over the place in terms of composition. It isn't constrained by an AISI standard the way, say, O1 is. Claiming that you can always harden mild steel because it worked once for you is a bit like claiming that all lottery tickets are winners because you one won a couple bucks.

Quenching hardens steeps by converting austenite to martensite instead of cementite. Simplifying a bit, that only happens when cementite would have otherwise formed (had the steel cooled slowly), and that means the steel must have at least 0.78% C to harden significantly. Search for "proeutectoid phases" for gory details.

Does it vary that much? I know nothing of steel manufacturing processes, granted, but I would expect it to be fairly homogeneous, even if not held to strict standards. That said, I wasn't/definitely am not under the impression that one will get reliable, consistent results with it. Just that you can harden it and it generally works for makeshift hobo applications ;)

I'll read up some more on all this as you suggest, though! I'm actually curious now if I can find some statistics on just how much the carbon content varies in mild steel from a given manufacturer.

[Dave Zellers]

Wow I got bumped up to the Neanderthal board. Upgrade! I thought about posting it here but didn't think it was worthy.

Now to go back and read the new posts.

[Dave Zellers]

Does that mean your time is worth 20 cents an hour. Actual less considering expendable.
It's not the first time... :eek:

[Dave Zellers]

Files are very brittle...
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH WORKING FOR 20 CENTS AN HOUR,if you are learning something.
This will never be used aggressively enough to break it.

Being willing to work for a few dollars an hour is how I learned most of what I know about finish carpentry / woodworking. I would give a fixed price for a job and then experiment and do it the way I wanted to do it, not the way that would make me the most money.

Really appreciate you sharing your knowledge George. Thanks.

[george wilson]

Luke doesn't even seem to know that mild steel covers a range of steels with different carbon contents. Luke,do you know what 1018 means? It means the following: The 1 refers to IRON. The 0 means no other elements. the last 2 digits ,18 refer to the percentage of carbon in the steel. Mild steels vary in carbon content. 1020 is a common one.

You are perfectly right: a mild steel bar will not split or warp much from being quenched in ice water. That is because it is WORTHLESS for making decent cutting tools. The carbon content is what does make high carbon steels warp,or crack.

If you want to REALLY try a fast quench,make a mercury quench and try it!!

You aren't going to get USABLE hardness from steel with less than .45% carbon. .45 carbon steel will harden,but that isn't the only issue. There is also abrasion resistance. .45 is not going to hold an edge very well because it has such a low carbon content. Several years ago FWW did a study of the carbon contents of various chisel brands. They found that SEARS chisels,made in HOLLAND(You'd think the Dutch would have more pride!),were made from steel with .45% carbon. They were the worst chisels about edge holding in the group tested. Amazing what execs will stoop to in order to save a penny or 2 on a chisel.

If you want to try getting by without buying a piece of 01 steel,you'd be better off using an ice pick blade to make your little chisel out of. Some guys actually do that. I know another EXCELLENT CRAFTSMAN who engraves by using large size sewing needles to grind into his engraving tools.

You can also find some grades of concrete reinforcing rods that will get hard as blazes. But,there are different grades of that,too. The only way you can find out if it will harden is to heat a piece orange hot and water quench it.

I suggest you go tell your karate instructor that even he can learn from a novice while he kicks your rear end all over the mat!!:)

[Luke Dupont]

Luke doesn't even seem to know that mild steel covers a range of steels with different carbon contents. Luke,do you know what 1018 means? It means the following: The 1 refers to IRON. The 0 means no other elements. the last 2 digits ,18 refer to the percentage of carbon in the steel. Mild steels vary in carbon content. 1020 is a common one.

However,you aren't going to get USABLE hardness from steel with less than .45% carbon. .45 carbon steel will harden,but that isn't the only issue. There is also abrasion resistance. .45 is not going to hold an edge very well because it has such a low carbon content.

If you want to try getting by without buying a piece of 01 steel,you'd be better off using an ice pick blade to make your little chisel out of. Some guys actually do that. I know another EXCELLENT CRAFTSMAN who engraves by using large size sewing needles to grind into his engraving tools.

I suggest you go tell your karate instructor that even he can learn from a novice while he kicks your rear end all over the mat!!:)

I do know that mild steel covers a range of hardnesses/carbon contents. I thought that I explicitly recognized that point many times throughout my posts. Also knew that the last two numbers refer to carbon content, though I didn't realize what the first two numbers refer to. Thanks for the information!

Thanks for the tip regarding the ice-pick blade. I might follow your advice and try that!

Don't do karate. Besides, I'm used to getting my rear kicked all over the mat (well, alright, more commonly punched, thrown, or struck with rattan objects), so I haven't much to fear there ;)

[Dave Zellers]

Welp, you inspired me. I needed a 1/8" chisel too, so I picked up a 1/8" x 1/8" piece of mild steel and made this:

335823


Cool! Making something like this from stuff that's just lying around is so new for me I'm excited by the result. And now I'm learning a bit about tempering- Bonus!

[george wilson]

I don't know,Luke. I'm still trying to figure out how you suddenly went from "Not quite red hot" to orange hot all of a sudden. Though I see you edited out the "not quite red hot" sentence.:)

[Patrick Chase]

Does it vary that much? I know nothing of steel manufacturing processes, granted, but I would expect it to be fairly homogeneous, even if not held to strict standards. That said, I wasn't/definitely am not under the impression that one will get reliable, consistent results with it. Just that you can harden it and it generally works for makeshift hobo applications ;)

I'll read up some more on all this as you suggest, though! I'm actually curious now if I can find some statistics on just how much the carbon content varies in mild steel from a given manufacturer.

The thing to realize is that terms like "mild steel" and "structural steel" describe broad families of metals, not individual alloys. In the absence of a specific AISI number (1018 etc) mild steel could mean many things, and your post to which George responded (#11 in this thread) makes it look like you grabbed a random piece that was laying around and were generalizing from that to all "mild steels".

A couple other remarks:

- I've made comments about decarburization when hardening tool steels in other threads, so it's probably worth noting that that process goes the other way, too: If you expose the surface of a low-carbon steel part to a source of free Carbon while heated above the critical temperature, then you can carburize and thereby harden the surface of the part. It's called "case hardening". This used to be a important to the manufacturing of warship armor. At the time it was desirable to have a hard face to fragment the incoming shell but a fairly elastic back to absorb energy and resist spalling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall#Antitank_warfare). The way that was done was by "cementing" (case hardening) the outer face.

- While they can't be solution-hardened much, most mild steels can be work hardened quite a bit. A36 (a "structural steel") and 1018 (a "mild steel") have very similar composition, but differ in that 1018 is cold-rolled. 1018 has about 50% higher yield strength than A36, and that difference mostly reflects work hardening from the cold forming process.

[Larry Frank]

There is lot of info and wrong info in this thread.

1018 is not necessarily cold rolled and only refers to a range of composition. Even within the chemical range there is a wide range of properties.

A36 mainly refers to the physical yield and tensile strength range. There is a composition range but is very wide and will depend somewhat on the end use such as bar, plate or structural.

I have made many thousands of tons of these grades and others. As a metallurgical engineer, I find it interesting some of the comments that are made. Much of it comes from people's experiences and perceptions....sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

It is sad to see what people in this thread have written. Rather than being so critical, we should strive to help each learn.

[Luke Dupont]

I don't know,Luke. I'm still trying to figure out how you suddenly went from "Not quite red hot" to orange hot all of a sudden. Though I see you edited out the "not quite red hot" sentence.:)

Believe whatever you like and have a nice day.

[Luke Dupont]

Cool! Making something like this from stuff that's just lying around is so new for me I'm excited by the result. And now I'm learning a bit about tempering- Bonus!

Thanks! And good work yourself! I'm in the same boat; I'm quite new to all this, but it's rather exciting to discover that you can make things.

I've been making a lot of my own tools now thanks to that discovery! Some of them rather crude, and some of them quite decent quality, but all good fun and learning experiences :D

Keep us posted! I'd like to see more things you make! I'm also following Paul Seller's clamp build and was needing a 1/8" chisel for it, by the way. lol

[Patrick Chase]

There is lot of info and wrong info in this thread.

1018 is not necessarily cold rolled and only refers to a range of composition. Even within the chemical range there is a wide range of properties.

A36 mainly refers to the physical yield and tensile strength range. There is a composition range but is very wide and will depend somewhat on the end use such as bar, plate or structural.

I have made many thousands of tons of these grades and others. As a metallurgical engineer, I find it interesting some of the comments that are made. Much of it comes from people's experiences and perceptions....sometimes right and sometimes wrong.

It is sad to see what people in this thread have written. Rather than being so critical, we should strive to help each learn.

Correction accepted - I'm trained as an ME (though haven't been active as such in 2 decades), not a metallurgist.

I knew that A36 was like the HSLA family in that it's specified by properties rather than composition, but thought the practical range of compositions is fairly small and very similar to 1018. I'd also only dealt with cold rolled 1018, but a quick look reveals that it's available hot rolled as well (and with yield strength about 1/3 lower than CR, so I at least got that part right). Mea culpa and my apologies for both.

Out of curiosity, what is your opinion about the underlying question? Can you give an example of a low carbon steel (say, <= 0.4% C) that can be significantly solution-hardened?

I know (and said) that I simplified in #17 :-)

EDIT: Answering my own question: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/George_Krauss/publication/222471290_Martensite_in_steel_strength_and_structu re/links/00b49533c757bdcc7b000000.pdf and the papers it references. Note that he considers surface-hardening so you have to read carefully (and in some cases look at the referenced papers) before drawing conclusions from the pretty pictures. Next time I should maybe peek at the literature before posting.

[george wilson]

Larry,it seems a bit difficult to try to educate those who appear here,and say that experience does not count. That has happened twice here lately. Both admitted they were novices in steel or woodworking,respectively.

The steels that I am interested in are W1,01,D2,A2,ATS34,and other hardenable tool steels,and wrought iron. Except for the wrought iron, the steels that you can make cutting tools with. Not much interested in mild steel. The manganese in A36 was not pertinent to the question. I was only interested in the 28% carbon in it,as not being sufficient to make a decent cutting tool. I wanted to keep the discussion as simple as possible since Luke is a total beginner(Even if he has things to teach me!):)


I have even made my own alloys of bronze. Mostly 10% tin and 90% copper,when I used to cast bronze chariot planes and other tools. But,at the time I had to do it out doors,which wasn't that convenient. Couldn't run my gas and coke furnaces inside the house! I unfortunately left them 2 moves ago. I made an experimental brass alloy containing 20% lead,which I read as making a VERY HARD brass. Sure enough,the casting could not be touched with a file! Probably would have shattered if struck.

Yes,it was possible to use bronze chisels to make the pyramids-IF you have an army of black smiths behind you,re working the cutting edges!:)


Patrick,if he is using a Mapp gas or propane torch,it is seriously doubtful if any carburization took place. I HAVE carburized mild steel parts,but I had to use a carburizing (carbon rich) flame with an oxy-acetelyne torch. After about an hour,I got the part(a pistol hammer)when I was a teenage ,hard as blazes after water quenching(Not,not a zip gun,a legitimate .22 cal. target pistol). I have also used Kasenite(no longer available),and aquarium charcoal (In a heavy,cast iron container with lid) to case harden small tools such as chasing hammer heads. But,using a good,hardenable steel is still the best approach. Those other things were just experimental,though I still use the Kasenite hardened hammer head to this day. They sell "Cherry Red",a Kasenite substitute these days,though I don't think it is as good as Kasenite. Kasenite apparently had something deemed harmful(cyanide?) in it. I know of no one who experienced any harmful effects using it. Too bad,a good product is gone(Except for the stash I still have!)

Some cast bronze tools I made,and the head of a chasing hammer I hardened with Kasenite. The face takes small little dents,but it has held up quite well since the 70's (1979 on this hammer),when I was doing a lot of experiments. A bar of 1 1/2" )01 drill rod cost enough that I decided to just try case hardening the hammer. I could have gotten a deeper case with aquarium charcoal,but used what I had at the time.

Sorry,the picture of the cast bronze chariot plane is over lit,and you can see only part of the engraving. I never was a decent photographer.

Larry,I am sure that you know much more about steels than I do,as my interests are of a limited focus on tool steels,and wrought iron(working in a museum situation). Many tools in the 18th. C.,were wrought iron,bitted with a high carbon steel bit for the cutting edge. As Japanese tools are made these days(If they can get the wrought iron- used only on their more expensive tools).

Oh,BTW,Luke,I have tried the "magic" soap-salt,etc. solution you refer to. And tested the resulting quenching with my Versitron hardness tester. The magic quench is hardly worth the effort,producing only a few points of higher hardness. But,not sufficient to make a good cutting tool from.

We have a World class blacksmith shop here in Williamsburg. I can learn anything I need to from them. BTW,I made the patterns for their anvils many years ago. Just before I retired,I made another pattern from an original anvil. It has 5 legs and a rather small horn. Both these anvils are about 300#.

You have stated that I use modern methos for everything. That is not true. For 40 years I worked in a museum dedicated to the 18th. C.. A LOT of my work methods are taken from that period. I used wooden planes for many years,and still do,for example.

[Patrick Chase]

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Luke had created a case-hardened chisel. As you point out that can be a bit difficult even when you're *trying* to do it, and carbon diffusion isn't that fast. I was merely trying to acknowledge [some of] the ways in which a low-carbon steel can be hardened.

I suspect that selective hardening of a chisel would be a bad idea anyway, as the resulting internal stresses would cause the tip of the chisel to warp whenever the primary bevel is reground.

[george wilson]

I see nothing wrong with case hardening a SMALL chisel. And,tempering it back just as you would a regular piece of water hardening steel. After all,only the cutting edge does the cutting,and that edge is quite thin.

In the Millwork shop,,I was friendly with the staff. They used to make long,wide chisels out of just hot rolled steel to cut the dried foam off of Gorilla glue. They used it on out door furniture.

I made a quick and dirty chisel for one of the men,and did case harden the last 3" of the cutting end of his chisel. It worked fine for scraping glue off.i wouldn't say it would be a good tool for actual chiseling wood,but for a 1/8" chisel,i think it would be fine. I think a ice pick ground into a chisel might be a better idea. I don't know off hand how hard ice picks are,but they must have reasonable hardness to not bend the point when chipping ice. I know some guys have used them for small chisels.

[Patrick Chase]

In the Millwork shop,,I was friendly with the staff. They used to make long,wide chisels out of just hot rolled steel to cut the dried foam off of Gorilla glue. They used it on out door furniture.

I was not aware that they had polyurethane adhesives in the 18th century :-):-):-)

I've noticed that all of the chisels I own from a certain brand (and no others) tend to "self-dub" a tiny bit whenever the primary bevel is reground. It's visible under close examination but not enough to have a large impact on cutting performance, and these chisels are fairly well-regarded by others. It seems very likely that it's the result of internal stresses, with the surface under compression and core under tension, such that grinding the bevel back allows the newly-unsupported part of the back at the tip to curl. I suspect that case hardening would have a similar impact, though obviously that's a "don't care" for the sorts of applications you described. Perhaps not coincidentally the brand in question is known to use a fairly unique hardening/quenching process.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Several comments:

First, George, I used some of the "Cherry Red" this past winter (don't remember for what), EXACTLY per instructions, and the results were no where as good as "kasenite". George, have you ever heard of heat treating by heating cherry red and plunging the piece into copper powder? I never tried it, but an old timer, about thirty years ago, swore you could harden steel that way.

Second, I'm not going to get involved in discussions of what method is right or wrong, but at my manufacturing plant, our sintering ovens and metals sintered, are processed per the raw material supplier's guidelines. At my in-house tool shop, tooling is heat treated and annealed exactly per the supplier's instructions (primarily Carpenter tool steel). There is a real danger in using tooling not properly heat treated (a neighboring plant had a punch mistakenly made from D2 instead of S7, heat treated like S7, and the punch shattered like glass, nearly kiling the machine operator).

My suggestion for experimenting is to either locate a local tool steel supplier and pickup an instruction book for the materials you're using, or get a copy of Machinery Handbook, which gives some general guidelines.

[Patrick Chase]

Second, I'm not going to get involved in discussions of what method is right or wrong, but at my manufacturing plant, our sintering ovens and metals sintered, are processed per the raw material supplier's guidelines. At my in-house tool shop, tooling is heat treated and annealed exactly per the supplier's instructions (primarily Carpenter tool steel). There is a real danger in using tooling not properly heat treated (a neighboring plant had a punch mistakenly made from D2 instead of S7, heat treated like S7, and the punch shattered like glass, nearly kiling the machine operator).

In fairness to Luke, a chisel isn't exactly a machine punch. If one shattered you could certainly get hurt, but probably not irrecoverably so (provided you wear eye protection etc)

The thought of oil-quenched (assuming the piece was big enough to require that under S7's guidelines) and under-tempered D2 makes me shudder though. Ugh.

[Tony Zaffuto]

In fairness to Luke, a chisel isn't exactly a machine punch. If one shattered you could certainly get hurt, but probably not irrecoverably so (provided you wear eye protection etc)

The thought of oil-quenched (assuming the piece was big enough to require that under S7's guidelines) and under-tempered D2 makes me shudder though. Ugh.

Punches in my industry are generally cored with interior pin. Wall thickness of the punch can run from a low of .050" to several inches or more.

As far as Luke goes, I would agree that an injury from shattering would probably not be life threatening, but then again I recall about 50 years ago a chum hammering/splitting nut off a bolt, using a cold chisel, hitting with an ordinary nail hammer. Sliver of metal flew off the strike point of the chisel and imbedded in another chum's arm deep enough that surgery was needed to get it out.

[george wilson]

Patrick,do not confuse the Millwork Shop with the Anthony Hay cabinet shop(which is in the Historic Area). The millwork shop is under no constraint to use 18th. C. methods in making the numerous outdoor furniture,doors,windows and hundreds of other things needed in the upkeep of historic area houses. They try to build furniture that can get rained on all the time and not fall apart.

Tony,when I was pretty young,I got "shot" in the left shoulder several times by a nearby kid hammering on a crow bar with a steel hammer,taking a large wooden crate apart. I didn't know at first what was happening. The hammer was shedding little bits of steel. Luckily I wasn't hit in an eye.

I never did anything about the bits of steel. They are either still in there,or dissolved. At least it wasn't stainless steel!

another time when I was still young,I had made a NICE 2" wide skew chisel from a large file. I got all the teeth off and polished the chisel nicely. Sharpened it up razor sharp. The first thing it did when I BARELY touched the wood in the lathe,was to bust in half,and send the razor sharp part whizzing JUST by my head! Now,THAT could have blinded me.or certainly gashed me badly. I didn't know at the time that I should have drawn the temper. To this day,though,I hardly EVER try making a turning tool from a file. Even when drawn BLUE,they are STILL TOO BRITTLE. I have made one or 2 SMALL turning tools,but very small,and very carefully used.

I don't try getting by cheap about tool steel. The results might not be cheap!!!

[Steve Voigt]

Dave Zellers,

Nice looking chisel. Anyone who says "your time is only worth 20 cents an hour" has probably never had the satisfaction of making a useful tool.

As others have said, files can be brittle and are not necessarily ideal for chisels, but if you use it mostly for pushing and sharpen it at 30° or steeper, it should be fine.

A couple years ago, I broke my narrowest chisel. It was the weekend, so I drove to the orange death star and resolved to buy a 1/8" chisel. I can't even remember if they had them or not; all I remember is that I looked at those hideous, oversize plastic handles and walked out. I took a small, used-up saw file and spent a few hours making an unbolstered chisel with octagonal handle. I'm still using it, two years later…

[Pat Barry]

When Lee Valley announced their recent free shipping event, I thought I would buy a 1/8" chisel which I have wanted for a while now.

Then when I was looking through my files a few days ago, I realized I could make one out of an old worn mill file that I never use anymore.

So I ground down the file marks almost all the way- (I wanted to stay as close to 1/8" thickness as possible) tapered it a bit toward the end and then put a 25º bevel on it. This steel seems really hard- it is sharp!

I made the handle from a scrap of 1 1/8" birch dowel and the ferrule from a 3/4" copper coupling which cost me 99 cents. Plus I only used half of it so technically only 49 1/2 cents! I already know I'll use the cutoff on another chisel.

The thinking for this actually started while I was watching Paul Sellers' recent video making light duty cam clamps. I couldn't be happier with the result. Maybe 4-5 hours of work, mostly because I was winging it the whole time.

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Nice work! I seriously doubt you will ever have any issues with this little gem. If it does snap whn you are using it (abusing it) by trying to lever out some deep mortise or even hammering it in, the piece that snaps off ( the tip) will be embedded into the wood anyway. There is no way you will snap that thing off in the wide area. You are not putting that much force into it to do that in normal woodworking. Just don't try to lever something out sideways! :)