what would be the best way to spend $300?

[Brian Sommers]

I am a newbie hybrid...
I have my table saw up for sale. I had two cases of kickback using my cross cut sled. Thankfully nothing became airborne, but I did get the sled jammed back at me VERY QUICKLY. Now I'm spooked! I haven't used my TS since and besides I don't have the room for one anyway. I'd rather have space and be able to walk around the shop without bumping into everything.

I have a good used Jack plane I finally got tweaked and set up as a roughing plane.

I was going to get a nice Lee Valley LA Jack PM-V11

I have two bit braces and my two handsaws. I do use my band saw and circular saw for some rough cutting.

I made a bench and drilled my dog holes, I don't have any bench dogs yet, but will either buy them or make some.

I made a bench hook yesterday and plan on making a shooting board today.

I have some chisels, used ones that I restored and they work well.

I'm ready to actually make something. I want to make boxes. I keep hearing (youtube) and reading (forums/blogs) that box making is good because it will teach you joinery skills.

I have lots of rough stock of some nice wood, maple, oak, walnut, cherry, etc.

Do you flatten and true up pieces first then cut the exact size you need? or rough cut the size then true up?

Or should I just start working a project and see what turns up that I need but don't have?

I do have a dewalt lunchbox planer, would using my jack as a roughing plane flatten that out enough to run it through my planer? Or should I use a smoothing plane before I run it through my planer?

The more I get into hand tools the more I want to do hand tools. I'm really loving it. I had bought a Dewalt 2-1/4hp router and its still new in the box, haven't even touched it yet.

I have a mini lathe, I do want to get into some pen turning and a nice Delta scroll saw. I've used a little.

What else would I need to make nice boxes? Should I get the LV LA Jack? or something else? or hang off?

[Bill Houghton]

Do you flatten and true up pieces first then cut the exact size you need? or rough cut the size then true up?

It depends. If the stock is really warped, it's sometimes better to rough cut, then true up; otherwise, you can wind up with really really thin pieces of wood. If it's pretty close to flat, rough cutting to a size that accommodates as many box parts as possible, then truing that, then cutting the size, works better. And remember, when you're cutting to size, that you need a little extra to true/smooth up your cuts.


Or should I just start working a project and see what turns up that I need but don't have?
In general, yes, but a couple of comments:

You will rapidly find that you need a plane for making the work smooth, since you've set up your jack plane as a roughing plane (it is possible to use a jack plane for smoothing by getting another iron that you grind for smoothing work, and switching it in as needed).

You don't mention layout tools. A good square is vital. I'd be hard pressed to do hand work like you describe without a marking gauge, but some people get by with a combo square and a marking knife (which needn't be a high end knife; an Xacto knife serves quite well).

I can't imagine making small work like boxes without a block plane.

But, if you're not in a hurry, and it sounds like you're not, waiting to see where your need-a-tool frustrations arise and buying from there makes sense.

[Prashun Patel]

Personally, I would not throw the table saw out with the bathwater yet. Analyze why you kicked back, and seek to avoid that situation again. For me, the table saw is a 'sometimes food' (to mangle a Cookie Monster phrase). I don't use it for thin or small cuts, or for ripping thick stock. But for a lot of other operations it's fast and versatile.

I wouldn't buy any tools yet. Build a couple boxes with what you have.

More important than joinery techniques, boxes teach you about 'square' and 'flat'. These are deceptively deep concepts (as are 'sharp' and 'smooth').

Put your $300 in an envelope and buy something in a couple months when you've built a couple boxes. Personally, if you already have a jack plane, and want to smooth smaller boxes, I'd be looking into a #4 or #3 plane.

[george wilson]

Wine,women and song!!! Stop being a fuddy-duddy!!:)

[Malcolm McLeod]

Wine,women and song!!! Stop being a fuddy-duddy!!:)

^^Will lead to hangovers, heartbreak, and hoarseness. Tools are merely entry to the whirlwind.

Send the money to me. I'll save you! :cool:

...Or get a good block plane.

[lowell holmes]

Big routers (I have two) scare me a lot more than a table saw.

I can't imagine suffering a kick back making a cross cut.

When using any power tool, position your body so that a kick back can't get you.
I have a canvas apron (Lee Valley) that I wear when at the saw. There are two layers of canvass protecting my chest area.

Sharp chisels slipping during a paring cut will leave a large cut. Don't ask me how I know.

Safety glass are required in my shop period. Doesn't matter whether using hand or power tools. You probably will not suffer eye injuries using hand tools, but the habit of wearing eye protection is important.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Not related to the hand tools aspect, but check your alignment of the blade with the miter slots. That's likely the cause of your kickback. That, or you have a concave bow in your fence.

Buy tools as needed. But you are going to want a small smoothing plane. #3 or #4 size. And some card scrapers as well.

Regarding the planer, just use hand planes to get it flat enough on one side, and send it through. It only needs to be flat enough to not rock and to not have a bow in it. That will true up the other side. Once that side is trued, flip it over and go over your rough hand planed side. Easy peasy.

[Jim Koepke]

I was going to get a nice Lee Valley LA Jack PM-V11

This is a great plane for many uses. I like my LA Jack for shooting end grain.


Do you flatten and true up pieces first then cut the exact size you need? or rough cut the size then true up?

A bit of both, it depends on the wood and the project.


Or should I just start working a project and see what turns up that I need but don't have?

This is a very good approach. Everyone loves to spend someone else's money. Without being in your shop or your position we could suggest everything from block planes (a great and useful tool) to water stones. Often before starting a project the how to do it flows through my mind. The tools that will be needed can be checked for readiness or bought if something not already in my shop is needed. Of course all of this can change as the project gets going.


I do have a dewalt lunchbox planer, would using my jack as a roughing plane flatten that out enough to run it through my planer? Or should I use a smoothing plane before I run it through my planer?

Jack first, power planer then a smoothing plane if needed.


I have a good used Jack plane I finally got tweaked and set up as a roughing plane.

This also caught my attention. One of my enjoyments is fettling (messing with) old tools. If this is also something you enjoy a lot of old tools can be purchased for a lot less than springing for new tools. Just be aware that there will be a few duds when this route is taken. Most of my duds either limp along doing well or they have become inventory in my parts accumulation.

There are good used block planes available, but it is one of the things that I found it easier to just bite the bullet and by a new model. If you are fussy about fit, finish and quality of machining you will likely be happier with new tools. There are not as many new tools in my shop as there are tools that are new to me ready to be new again for a future generation.

jtk

[Brian Sommers]

Thanks all. I think I will go back to my old hand tool store and pick up a #4 and have the "guy" set it up and everything for me at first. It's an extra $30 but that and the cost of the plane would be a far cry from $300. I did pick up a nice little block plane that I really like and works well. I forgot to mention that I have a very good square, the Incra 7" and the Lee Valley little 4" square and a good marking knife and marking tools, so I'm good there.

I have to admit, maybe I will keep my table saw. I know what I did that caused the kickback and I was trying to cut a very long 2x6 on my sled and I didn't have it supported so as it cut it began to fall off the end causing it to pinch and throw everything back at me. Still, it put the fear in me good and proper!

I have the gripper which I use about all the time for smaller stuff but what I don't like about it when I'm done my arm is hanging over the saw blade. If I only use my table saw for only the larger stuff and for main ripping. Looking back from now on any long stock will just get cut with my circular saw or my cheap Stanley Fat Max. I have the guard on my TS with the little kickback claws on in the back.

My wife leaves in the morning and I'm all by myself all day long and if something would really bad happen I'd have a hard time getting help.

[Brian Sommers]

...but it is one of the things that I found it easier to just bite the bullet and by a new model. If you are fussy about fit, finish and quality of machining you will likely be happier with new tools. There are not as many new tools in my shop as there are tools that are new to me ready to be new again for a future generation.

jtk

You got this post in before I could finish up my other reply.
But, this is exactly where I'm at. I keep thinking it would be awesome to experience a really nice tool, brand new.

[Jim Koepke]

My wife leaves in the morning and I'm all by myself all day long and if something would really bad happen I'd have a hard time getting help.

Any neighbors? Maybe an easy to reach extension phone in the shop.

Do you have marking gauges?

My Tite-Mark® is one of my most used tools:

http://www.glen-drake.com/Tite-Marks/

I have a few other marking gauges when multiple settings are needed on a project. Old Stanley gauges are often available for $10-$20.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

You got this post in before I could finish up my other reply.
But, this is exactly where I'm at. I keep thinking it would be awesome to experience a really nice tool, brand new.

That is what the woodworking shows and tool events are all about.

I do not know your location, but Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley often have events where folks can try out their tools.

My 100 year old tools can hold their own when it comes to quality of work. A new plane usually has less play in the mechanics of adjustment. Plus they are impressively shiny on the shelf.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

"I keep thinking it would be awesome to experience a really nice tool, brand new."

I'm goo-goo for bling-bling as well, but at the risk of being glib, it's the wrong reason to buy a tool.

I've seen it a lot here. When people ask 'what should i buy?' it's inevitably (to me) a sign that they shouldn't buy anything. When it's time to buy, you'll know what to buy.

[Brian Sommers]

wow! Those look stunning and have a price tag to match.

I have this: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=60044&cat=1,42936
and this: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=59455&cat=1,42936 the imperial standard, I wish I would have bought the micro adjust, but so far I'm surviving.

[Jim Koepke]

EDIT

When people ask 'what should i buy?' it's inevitably (to me) a sign that they shouldn't buy anything. When it's time to buy, you'll know what to buy.

Wise words that can save a lot of money over time.

jtk

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

I would start by looking at the tools you will use the most - and ensure you have good ones. Measuring, marking, layout is a good place to start. Sharpening is a gateway skill - make sure you have what you need (including books, video) to do that.

Buy what you need to support specific projects - avoid looking for what you might think you need down the road.

Stay away form big ticket items until you know you need it .... Consider used/antique tools until you have developed a method of work preference...

Cheers -

Rob

[Bill Houghton]

Any neighbors? Maybe an easy to reach extension phone in the shop.
It's not hard to find cordless landline phones. Cordless so you can carry it in your pocket; landline so that, when you dial 911 just before you pass out, the police/ambulance can find you quickly.

If your shop is close enough to the house, the radio signal from the base station might be able to reach a cordless phone.

This assumes, of course, that you're one of those dinosaurs like me who still has a landline phone.

[Reinis Kanders]

I just tap mine on the workbench, works better than micro adjust, there is enough give in the o-ring that it moves when tapping, but does not move when marking.


wow! Those look stunning and have a price tag to match.

I have this: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=60044&cat=1,42936
and this: http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=59455&cat=1,42936 the imperial standard, I wish I would have bought the micro adjust, but so far I'm surviving.

[george wilson]

All right,I'll take it back about the wine and women. Everyone knows I'm a huge tool pig!

I think the best advice has been given: Wait till you actually need something.

[Kirby Krieger]

You're starting off in a new direction ... you'll make what in retrospect will be false starts. That's how we find our way.

But — as you've indicated — you don't want to make a mistake that will injure or kill you. If you are anxious about serious injury or death in your workshop, there is something wrong with your workspace or workflow. Before you advance further, I suggest addressing and resolving your concern (which is, evidently, well-placed). The _second_ kickback using the same equipment is worrisome — it tells me that:


you never adequately solved the issue, and
you repeated a dangerous behavior knowing it was dangerous.

It can be argued that never using a table saw again is a wise course to take. I propose that you do better — one can seriously injure oneself with human-powered tools, and you, yourself, seem not unlikely to injure yourself at some point with motor-driven equipment. Most importantly, train yourself to heed that voice in your head that warns you, before you do something, "This might not go the way you want". Then, spend the time _understanding_ why the kickback occurred. Even if you never use a table saw again, the time spent gaining this understanding, and the understanding itself, will not be wasted: they will have heightened your perceptions and awareness, and given you an invaluable template for controlling your equipment, regardless of your activity.

For $300, _assuming that you will have some money to spend on additional equipment in the future_, I suggest:
- An excellent, new, low-angle jack plane and two blades. Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen planes are superb. Put a camber on one blade for rough removal and for smoothing, leave a straight edge on the other for chuting. Read on-line about using one plane for multiple tasks.
Then, as soon as possible, get:
- A 1000/8000 waterstone for sharpening your blades.
- A precision saddle square (such as this one (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=48041&cat=1,42935,42936,50298,48041)).

Every woodworker should have at least one fantastic plane — to me, planing is one of the fundamental miracles of woodworking. After that, buy what you need to make what you want as well as you want to make it. The plane requires a sharp and re-sharpenable blade. Sharpening requires stones. Stones need to be flattened. Flattening requires some kind of lapping plate. And so on.

Good luck!

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Bill Houghton said you should cut down severly warped stock before dimensioning. Yes, for certain. I have seen this many times. Just yesterday I had a board that was pretty straight on both ends but it had this wicked curve about 2/3 down one side. I cut it at the curve, which allowed me to have 3/4" stock rather than 3/8" stock.

Prashun Patel suggests that you do not just dump the table saw. I think that it might be nice to know why there was a kickback. Do you have a riven knife, for example? Jeffrey Martel made some good things to check.

I think that Jim Koepke alluded to what I think is the best thing for you to purchase..... Choose a project then figure out what you do not have that you need to finish the project. Oh, Prashun AND George Wilson stated this as well.

Now, what might you need?



Sharpening supplies (Kirby Krieger)
Marking tools. If you intend to make boxes, you need to be able to mark your lines. You can make one or buy one (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/Page.aspx?p=59455&cat=1,42936)
How will you make your boxes? What other tools do you need for that? Dovetail saw?


If you live close by (you do not mention where you live), you can try some of my tools to see what works well for you.

Andrew Pitonyak

[Tyler Huber]

This isn't any type of answer to the original questions, but I just wanted to point out that the owner of Lee Valley/Veritas Tools, Rob Lee posted a reply earlier. Not only did he do a great job of answering the questions, he didn't try to sell his whole store to this person. He could of easily said "yes go buy a LAJ and while you're at it, since we have free shipping you should get the whole LA line up" But he didn't. There's to many companies that once they here you're considering buying one of they're products they want to sell you that plus the whole store. This has turned longer than I thought, but I just wanted to point this out (even though most of you probably already know). That's a true friend to the woodworking community and I thank you Rob!

Tyler

[Prashun Patel]

Tyler, he doesn't do that because he knows that people like you and I will read his post and then make the comment you just made. Make no mistake, he's an evil genius ;)

[Robert LaPlaca]

I am a newbie hybrid...
I have my table saw up for sale. I had two cases of kickback using my cross cut sled. Thankfully nothing became airborne, but I did get the sled jammed back at me VERY QUICKLY. Now I'm spooked! I haven't used my TS since and besides I don't have the room for one anyway. I'd rather have space and be able to walk around the shop without bumping into everything.


Brian, I am a hybrid woodworker. I use any tool that gets the job done.. Having said all that I couldn't imagine a shop without a tablesaw, or a bandsaw.. Just out of curiosity when you use the crosscut sled,were you by chance using the rip fence as the length stop?

[Kirby Krieger]

Sharpening is a gateway skill - make sure you have what you need (including books, video) to do that.
Rob

IME, _cannot_ be overstated. I think of it as a "draw-bridge and portcullis" skill: you simply can't get over to the land of Woodworking, let alone into the Village of Craft, without understanding and mastering sharpening. Personally, I use the "Charlesworth Method". His DVD/video (https://www.google.com/search?q=charlesworth%20sharpening%20dvd) lays it out well.

[Chuck Hart]

Brian whatever you do take a phone with you to the shop. If you get hurt bad 911 is your only option. I work alone a lot and it is important to have some option when you get hurt. Also spend some of that $300 on a first aid kit. Since you are relatively new at this hobby plan your power tool work with safety first. With experience comes the confidence to do things.

[Curt Putnam]

Maybe take a class about table saw usage? Failing that there are plenty of YouTube videos out there.

I'd love to tell you go buy a shiny new plane (and yes it feels good) but follow Rob Lee's advice. He wants to sell you a tool - but only when you are sure you need it. That's not the way I've done things but that's my advice. :)

[John Kananis]

It's not hard to find cordless landline phones. Cordless so you can carry it in your pocket; landline so that, when you dial 911 just before you pass out, the police/ambulance can find you quickly.

If your shop is close enough to the house, the radio signal from the base station might be able to reach a cordless phone.

This assumes, of course, that you're one of those dinosaurs like me who still has a landline phone.

They can find you just fine on a cell phone - rather quickly too.

[Mike Cherry]

When I was younger, I worked as an electrician for several years. I worked with several journeymen during my apprenticeship, but one guy said something I'll never forget. " The moment you don't respect the dangers of electricity, that's when it'll bite you." I look at all dangerous activities in this way these days. I figure a little fear and respect can go a long way towards making you slow down and take safety more importantly.

Like others have said, I normally rough cut my pieces before milling. In the case of small boxes, especially ones that you might resaw your stock in order to have the grain wrap around, you might be better off choosing pieces that are relatively defect free when possible.

I dont use a thickness planer or a table saw. I also have some expensive hand tools that I bought brand new that I don't use as often as I thought I would. The thing is, when you first start out with hand tools most folks have a hard time knowing what sharp properly performing tools feel like. It's hard to tune a common #5 if you don't know what the tool should perform like. In my case, I spent big dollars on a LN smoothing plane and it is without a doubt one of the best tools I've ever held. But, and here's the kicker, I have recently tuned a #4 Stanley that my Dad gave me and it is actually my go to smoother. That's a long way of saying you can get reliable performance out of vintage tools, once you know how they should work and feel when tuned and sharp. You mentioned you have a guy who can tune these for you so maybe you already have a good idea of what the tools should feel like. The Schwarz recommends spending premium dollars on a jointer plane, I got an old round side bedrock #7 fromTablesawTom a couple years ago and it is dead flat. Vintage jointer planes are pretty hard to flatten I'm told. Then again for box making, you probably won't need a #7 but if you make anything with pieces longer than two foot or so you might need to think about one.

The LV low angle Jack is an awesome tool as well. I am in love with it and use it quite often, but truth be told I could probably let it go as I have a 5 with decent camber, a great jointer, and a premium smoother. I guess I use it as more of a small jointer plane.

Anyways, I hope I didn't wear your ear out! In the end, if you buy a premium tool you can feel confident that if you decide to sell it they hold their value quite well.

[Frederick Skelly]

Becoming a Contributor to SMC would be an EXCELLENT way to spend $6 of that $300, Brian. :D:D:D

[Brian Holcombe]

I share Prashun's sentiment. Save your money until you know where it best applies.

Sell the table saw anyways. I've hurt myself with hand tools (a few times) so caution needs to be applied to all things from handling rough stock on through to finishing.

As a relative newbie, it's a good idea to do box making. You can also just cut joinery for practice.

Given that you have a planer, I would remove the wind (twist) from a board before planing. My normal procedure is to rough cut to length, joint (remove twist/bow/cup from one face), transfer my thickness marks with a gauge and then cut the opposing face to thickness). A thickness planer does that last step for you.

[Mark Fisher]

I am only a few projects ahead of you, but here is what I learned. Stick to two planes.....a jack and a low angle block plane. Learn how to sharpen them so you can shave hair from your arm easily....only then consider other planes. This may mean investing in a good set of stones. Do it. Second, get good, accurate marking and measuring tools. A machinist's square (Amazon, McMaster Carr, not adjustable), a marking knife (small Opinel folding knife works except for dovetails), a cheap digital caliper (Harbor Freight is fine), a decent mark gauge (Tite-Mark was my splurge and I don't regret it....pin or blade is fine). Third get a dovetail and tenon saw.....old Disston or similar is fine and learn to sharpen it. Same with panel saws ex. cross cut and rip. Restoring old tools is fun and teaches some primary woodworking skills. Next, make some bench tools like a shooting board and bench hooks. They teach you to make things accurately yet are pretty simple. Make them perfect. Finally, clamps. You can't have enough of them and cheap nasty ones are cheap and nasty. If you have a bench and it is thick enough, get the Gramercy holdfasts. Handy, cheap, convenient and very fun to use. BTW - I learned to hate my table saw so much it will be out on the curb next week minus the blade, motor and fence.....I'll sell those bits!