Looking for tips on Waterlox Original Sealer/ Finish

[Michael Yadfar]

I posted a very similar thread before, but after doing further research I've found some conflicting evidence. Anyway, the first time I ever used it was on the solid walnut/maple table I just built. For the table, I sanded up to 220 grit, vacuumed it, and ran a lint free cloth dampened with mineral spirits over it to take off any other dust. I used disposable foam brushes, used them dry, and brushed on coats, then after letting them sit for a few minutes brushed over it again. I put about 5 coats on the base, and 7 or 8 coats on the top. Before every coat, I cleaned the surface with a lint free rag dampened with mineral spirits

The issue I had was air bubbles. It's not terrible, you don't really notice them unless you look at the table at a certain angle, but they're there and there's a good amount. Things I may have done wrong was I double coated it on the early stages, and on the later stages I may have not allowed enough drying time. A few people said that I'd be better off with a natural bristle varnish brush, but I was reading online that there's no advantage other than saving brushes. I've also read about people thinning it a bit, and I didn't try that either. Another thing is maybe I just need a bit more practice. Anyway, I'm about to finish another table I built, and eventually refinish the first one I built, so I want to get it right.

[Sam Murdoch]

I refer you to this thread - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?240986-Tips-on-eliminating-air-bubbles-specifically-tung-oil

IN POST # 8 I describe how I apply Waterlox to flat surfaces. Some folks have had problems applying over a surface that has been wiped down with MS though I don't know why as Waterlox Original Sealer Finish has a high percentage of MS in it. It is a pretty thin product to begin with so I discourage you from adding marathoner. Should be no need. Anyway, as for cleaning the surface - I prefer to vacuum (with a vacuum cleaner that does not blow air out of one end while sucking at the other) and use a tack cloth. You'll read how I use foam brushes with good success. I'll let others discuss their preferred methods.

[Michael Yadfar]

I refer you to this thread - http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?240986-Tips-on-eliminating-air-bubbles-specifically-tung-oil

IN POST # 8 I describe how I apply Waterlox to flat surfaces. Some folks have had problems applying over a surface that has been wiped down with MS though I don't know why as Waterlox Original Sealer Finish has a high percentage of MS in it. It is a pretty thin product to begin with so I discourage you from adding marathoner. Should be no need. Anyway, as for cleaning the surface - I prefer to vacuum (with a vacuum cleaner that does not blow air out of one end while sucking at the other) and use a tack cloth. You'll read how I use foam brushes with good success. I'll let others discuss their preferred methods.

The only thing that confused me there is would it make a difference if you just used a foam brush all together rather than applying it with a natural bristle one?

[Prashun Patel]

Wpe it on instead of brushing if you are having trouble brushing. Skip the mineral spirits. Do not thin. Sorry to be terse.

[Sam Murdoch]

The only thing that confused me there is would it make a difference if you just used a foam brush all together rather than applying it with a natural bristle one?

On a big surface - dining table for example - the foam brush does not keep it's sharp tip and invariably will be saturated with oil and so start tracking bubbles. The bristle brush is made to carry material. I then use the foam brush - pretty dry, certainly not saturated - so that I can pull the finish. Long steady light stokes are key - no going back and forth. Hard to describe. You need to develop the right touch but I can't do more than encourage by explaining my own technique.

[Dan Hahr]

Cheap foam brushes....you get what you pay for. Buy a Purdy natural bristle brush and clean it well after each use. It will last a long time.

Brush it on flat and keep a wet edge. Don't brush it again, unless it is pooling up. Make sure your last pass is just the tips of the bristles held at a 90 degree angle.

Dan

[Sam Murdoch]

I know one woman who is a professional yacht finisher. Warm varnish and foam brushes is what she uses. Not all foam brushes are junk. Technique and a sharp tip are the keys to success - and - don't expect to carry a foam brush saturated with finish all through a big project. That's why I apply with a high quality bristle brush and tip off with a foam brush. Of course, you can tip off - as Dan writes above - with a bristle brush too and do a great job. I just prefer the foam at the end.

[Michael Yadfar]

My problem may have been found. The foam brush tip was no longer sharp by the time I was done

[Brian Thompson]

As Mr. Patel said, wiping on is a good idea. But for a table top, it would take a long time to build up, so I have used a foam brush for the first 3-4 coats, then if there are any bubbles or dust nibs, wet sand another coat in, wipe off, and then continue to build up coats with thin wiped-on coats until you have the build you want. If you don't have any dust nibs / bubbles to deal with, go straight to the light wipe-on coats after the 3-4 brushed-on coats.

[Michael Yadfar]

After applying with a natural bristle brush, and finishing with a sharp foam brush, I'm still having some issues with bubble. Could it possibly be due to either not sanding with a high enough grit (went up to 220), or not using a grain filler on black walnut?

[Prashun Patel]

Hi Michael. Just for kicks, can you take a test piece and try wiping? As others have stated below, you can brush on the first couple coats just to get build. Then sand with 600, and wipe on the final coats; quick and thin. Or you can wipe ALL the coats on. Quick and thin. Just try it.

If you insist on brushing and using foam (which I believe is doable, but just requires more attention to technique) then how fast are you brushing? In my experience, proper brushing is laying down with a first pass - possibly across the grain - with a brush that can be loaded well enough so you can pull a long stroke before reloading - then tipping off with the grain just a tad swifter the speed of the lay down. Going too fast on the lay down causes missed spots and stripes. Going too fast on the tip off causes bubbles. All this should be in a reasonably dust-free environment.

If you wipe, then you don't have to worry about the dust too much.

[Sam Murdoch]

Hi Michael. Just for kicks, can you take a test piece and try wiping? As others have stated below, you can brush on the first couple coats just to get build. Then sand with 600, and wipe on the final coats; quick and thin. Or you can wipe ALL the coats on. Quick and thin. Just try it.

If you insist on brushing and using foam (which I believe is doable, but just requires more attention to technique) then how fast are you brushing? In my experience, proper brushing is laying down with a first pass - possibly across the grain - with a brush that can be loaded well enough so you can pull a long stroke before reloading - then tipping off with the grain just a tad swifter the speed of the lay down. Going too fast on the lay down causes missed spots and stripes. Going too fast on the tip off causes bubbles. All this should be in a reasonably dust-free environment.

If you wipe, then you don't have to worry about the dust too much.


Nailed it! ^ If I sand between coats I usually go to 320 but up to the first coat 220 is plenty smooth enough - actually 180 is OK too.

[Michael Yadfar]

I've been ignoring wipe on because I don't have the patience, but I guess it's worth a shot. I believe 5 brush on coats is equal to something like 20 wipe on coats, and I brush on 7 coats! I guess maybe if I build it up and perhaps maybe do a few last coats wiped on would work. The problem I have with sanding is I never know how much to do. I've tried sanding off bubbles on my last table and I felt like I was taking a lot off but they didnt go away

[Michael Yadfar]

After trying the natural bristle brush then sharp foam brush, after layer 3, there's much improvement! However though, the surface still is a bit rough and does have air bubbles. I will probably try sanding it and finishing up with whipe on coats. My question in regards to sanding though, how much do I sand? Do I just vigorously sand until smooth? And what grit, 300?

[Dan Hahr]

Seven coats brushed on thick is way too much in my opinion. Two or three are plenty, unless you are using some outdoor finishes. I shoot for the thinnest finish I can get smooth and flat. The first coat should be laid on thick and sanded back to almost bare wood. The second should be much smoother and lightly sanded. The next coat should be close to perfect. I usually wipe the last few coats so they dry quickly and stop when it looks perfect. If you are leaving air bubbles in the finish, you are laying it down wrong.

Dan

[Sam Murdoch]

I agree with Dan - 7 coats of brushed on is too thick. I disagree that 2 or 3 is sufficient - for varnish - especially sanding between coats. I have found 4 to be very good and 5 to be better - again, sanding between at least the last 2 coats. 7 coats of Waterlox will stay uncured (read - soft) for months - slight exaggeration depending upon relative humidity. And you might have problems with adhesion.

Waterlox company says that you don't need to sand between coats but I often do unless the layer I am working off is perfect.

Michael I think your plan to sand the 3rd coat and apply another 2 or 3 as wipe on is a good one and will keep you out of trouble.
I have never found the need to sand my brushed on Waterlox past 320 grit. I use a good RO sander (I use a Festool ETS 150/3) with Mirka Abranet mesh. The mesh is my go to for sanding any finishes. Otherwise I use Festool Brilliant. I sand the entire surface lightly but smooth. Don't allow the sander to break through the top surface. If this might be an issue sand by hand.

The hand applied coats should not need to be sanded but if you decide it needs the work then I think I would use 320 or even finer and sand those lightly by hand. The finish must be thoroughly dry. No gumming or rolling of the finish while you sand. I you are getting other than white dust the finish is not yet cured.

AND - I repeat this technique that I have been describing through my posts is in regards to flat surfaces such as table tops or shelves or bar tops. I use different methods for applying Waterlox to vertical surfaces and small areas - another subject for another time.

[Michael Yadfar]

What do I use for hand applying waterlox? The instructions say use a rag, but I don't have any true "lint free" rags so that's a concern. Also, would 220 grit be OK between coats? That's the highest I found for my RO sander

[Prashun Patel]

Use blue shop towels from Home Depot.
220 is too aggressive. Use 400 or 600 every three wiped coats. Don't sand between each wiped coat.

[Scott Holmes]

FYI Waterlox Original Sealer/ Finish is a WIPE-ON varnish. 7 coats is about equal to two brush on of Waterlox Original.

The Sealer/Finish is thinned. So 7 coats is not too much finish.

[Michael Yadfar]

After sanding with 320 Grit, I applied a fourth brush on coat. This coat was actually the smoothest coat I have ever done. My next two I plan to make wipe on. Question though... I can see scratch marks from the sandpaper even though I went with the grain. Will the wipe on coats hide these?

[Michael Yadfar]

For those of you who do wipe on, how exactly do you do it? I can't find any videos. Do you just dip a rag and varnish, wipe, and you're good? And is it with the grain, or more in a swirling motion?

[Robert LaPlaca]

For those of you who do wipe on, how exactly do you do it? I can't find any videos. Do you just dip a rag and varnish, wipe, and you're good? And is it with the grain, or more in a swirling motion?

Michael, I decant the Waterlox OSF into a smaller container, then just dip the rag (I use Scotts 'rags' in a box) in the product and wipe on the thinnest, most even and tight coat of the product going with the grain. I am not sure it matters much if one goes with or against the grain, but the habit of going with the grain just seems correct to me.

The benefit of using a rag and putting a minimal amount of product on, is the product will flash fast, minimizing the problems that occur with heavier coats of Waterlox. As far as sanding, I use pretty fine paper, 1000 - 1200, just before the last coat..

Also, unless it's a smaller project, I use multiple rags to apply the product. I find the rags start to degrade from the friction of application and start leaving their own nibs...

[Brian Thompson]

After trying the natural bristle brush then sharp foam brush, after layer 3, there's much improvement! However though, the surface still is a bit rough and does have air bubbles. I will probably try sanding it and finishing up with whipe on coats. My question in regards to sanding though, how much do I sand? Do I just vigorously sand until smooth? And what grit, 300?

I use 600 wet/dry paper. And don't use a RO sander, just hand sand with a block. You're not taking off enough material to justify using a RO sander.

[Prashun Patel]

Wipe in large circles like a waiter wiping a table at the diner. Don't wipe with the grain. Let the product level itself and pop its own bubbles. If you move quickly and don't recipe unless you missed a spot, you will get good results. dont be discouraged if the first coat looks streaky. Within a few coats your results will improve.

[Michael Yadfar]

Wipe in large circles like a waiter wiping a table at the diner. Don't wipe with the grain. Let the product level itself and pop its own bubbles. If you move quickly and don't recipe unless you missed a spot, you will get good results. dont be discouraged if the first coat looks streaky. Within a few coats your results will improve.

Is it normal for it to look like nothing was applied after the first coat?

[Prashun Patel]

yes. give it 8 hours and put on another coat. Don't do it sooner than that if the surface has any kind of drag; you want that rag to move slick and quick.

[Michael Yadfar]

After completing my finish, it's only "OK", but its definitely progress. The finish is uneven, kind of like a pond with a small breeze, but for the most part the air bubbles are gone which makes me happy. The problem I believe is that I used way too much. I used 5 brush on coats and 5 wipe on coats. I'm happy though because the advice I got definitely helped. I completely ditched the foam brush and went with only a natural bristle brush, and that alone made a much smoother finish. The wipe on was the smoothest yet. Sanding between wipe on coats was a difference maker, but I sanded a bit too heavy which caused a few issues. The reason I used so many coats was mostly because I was experimenting different techniques and made a few mistakes. Next time, I think with 3 brush on and a few wipe on, I should be set. These two tables are for me, so while I'm a bit disappointed, they will pass and I can just sand down and start the tops over again once I master this. It's not like a badly fitting joint or anything where I can't go back and fix it