Gramercy holfasts not working for me?

[Luke Dupont]

Welp, I bought a gramercy holdfast, as many people have attested they work in 1.5" and even 1" table tops/skirts, and... They don't hold at all for me. I tried drilling a hole in both 4/4 and 8/4 stock (granted, these are planed down to more like 3/4 and 6/4), and I can't seem to get the holdfast to grip much at all in either. The curve on the back is very gradual, and winds up entering the hole, which doesn't help.

I'm kind of wondering how I can have such a different experience from other people, who've generally reported gramercy holdfasts to work well in thin tops :confused:

Oh well. I've made some little wooden holdfasts for half inch holes in the past, and they worked quite well. I think I'll just make some more wooden holdfasts for 3/4 inch, and see if I can return the gramercy one. Or maybe I'll just keep it around in case I wind up building a thick-top bench at some point (though, that's kind of unlikely). I don't really have the money to buy and try others at the moment.

I'm thinking, for the wooden hold fasts, maybe I'll get some 3/4 dowels, shave them down just a bit, and cut tenons to fit into a mortise that I'll chop into some 1x2 (oriented vertically) for the heads, at maybe a 25 degree angle or so. For the half inch ones, I just drilled a hole, but I think a square mortise will give better results, and I don't really want to use 2" stock to fit a 3/4 hole!

Has anyone made their own such holdfasts? Maybe I'll post pictures of how I made it if they come out well and can be of use to others.

[David Eisenhauer]

Is there anyway you can add in some thickness to the underneath side of your benchtop at one of your dog holes to try out the holdfast in a thicker top? I did that to an old machine-type woodworking bench when converting to more hand tool work and the Grammercy holdfasts work well in the combined 3/4" ply + 1-1/2" thick 2x6 (added in flat on the bottom side) top.

[Luke Dupont]

Well, I was going for a light-weight portable work bench, and wanted a thin top. I was going to do folding legs, which would mean any protrusion would get in the way, but I think I might abandon the folding legs in favor of simpler removable legs.

But, what about the skirt? I really don't want a skirt in excess of two inches. I'd prefer 3/4", in fact. That just seems like a lot of added work and bulk. Moreover, I'd like to use the holdfasts on thinner saw benches and the like.

I don't know. I haven't actually built/put together my workbench yet, so my options are still open.

[David Eisenhauer]

The other thing one hears about holdfast gripping solutions is to add in some "dimples" with a center punch to the vertical portion of the holdfast or even rough it up some with a file of some kind or another. Either way adds more grip to a slippery surface.

[Phil Stone]

I found that a 1-3/4 inch top was *not* enough to give my Gramercy holdfasts grip. In the areas where my benchtop is this thin, I added a 3/4" block of wood centered below the dog hole, and continued the 3/4" dog hole down through that. The holdfasts set easy and grip tight.

By the way, other parts of my top are 5" thick (see http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?241141-Hybrid-top-Roubo&highlight= for the reason why I have different thicknesses). Here, I had to counterbore 1" diameter holes, about 2 inches deep, from underneath the dog holes. My sample size of one says that these holdfasts like a top around 2-1/2 to 3 inches thick.

Make sure you follow Gramercy's recommendation to sand/scuff the holdfast barrels (around the barrel, not up and down it).

[Pat Barry]

1 1/2 inches is not enough, unless, the 3/4" hole is a tighter fit. I bet an 19 mm drilled hole would work acceptably for these in a slightly thicker top. The problem is that if you drill a sloppy hole the holdfast has nothing to bear against in the hole, its just the top and bottom and that ain't enough. Abrading the holdfast can help of course, but if you have a softwood top the hole will just elongate top and bottom and lose grip anyway. These tools need surface area to work thus the tighter fitting hole provides more bearing surface. Note - for thinner tops you might even undersize the hole diameter a bit more - maybe 18 mm

[Jim Koepke]

The curve on the back is very gradual, and winds up entering the hole, which doesn't help.

This caught my attention. Try placing a scrap of 2X between the work and the end of the hold fast. Mine will not hold in my thin topped bench at times without a bit more height to the piece being held.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

This caught my attention. Try placing a scrap of 2X between the work and the end of the hold fast. Mine will not hold in my thin topped bench at times without a bit more height to the piece being held.

jtk

Yeah, I tried that. Still doesn't hold in 1.5" thickness and a 3/4 hole, unfortunately.

Hmm... I guess my options are to drill smaller slightly smaller holes, make my own holdfasts, or add enough material to the underside to get me over 2" in any hole. I'll give it all some thought.

[Roy Lindberry]

Welp, I bought a gramercy holdfast, as many people have attested they work in 1.5" and even 1" table tops/skirts, and... They don't hold at all for me. I tried drilling a hole in both 4/4 and 8/4 stock (granted, these are planed down to more like 3/4 and 6/4), and I can't seem to get the holdfast to grip much at all in either. The curve on the back is very gradual, and winds up entering the hole, which doesn't help.

I'm kind of wondering how I can have such a different experience from other people, who've generally reported gramercy holdfasts to work well in thin tops :confused:

Oh well. I've made some little wooden holdfasts for half inch holes in the past, and they worked quite well. I think I'll just make some more wooden holdfasts for 3/4 inch, and see if I can return the gramercy one. Or maybe I'll just keep it around in case I wind up building a thick-top bench at some point (though, that's kind of unlikely). I don't really have the money to buy and try others at the moment.

I'm thinking, for the wooden hold fasts, maybe I'll get some 3/4 dowels, shave them down just a bit, and cut tenons to fit into a mortise that I'll chop into some 1x2 (oriented vertically) for the heads, at maybe a 25 degree angle or so. For the half inch ones, I just drilled a hole, but I think a square mortise will give better results, and I don't really want to use 2" stock to fit a 3/4 hole!

Has anyone made their own such holdfasts? Maybe I'll post pictures of how I made it if they come out well and can be of use to others.

My Grammercy holdfasts work well both on my 2 1/4" bench top and my 1 1/2" saw bench. When I initially got them, I too was frustrated. It took several times of beating them down....I think the top and bottom edges of the holes needed be somewhat swedged before they started gripping well. Now, they work like a charm.

I also ran across this video a while back, though I haven't tried the technique. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7lnfW4iT6o

[Bill Satko]

Luke,

I am sorry to hear of your troubles as I was one of those who responded to your original thread. I can only state again that I have never had any problem with my Gramercy holdfasts. And to repeat, my top is 2-1/4" and my skirts are 1". The holes were made with 3/4 router bit and I have never modified the holdfasts in any manner including sanding. In fact, when using them in my skirts I hardly have to hit them with a mallet. They can be made to hold very well with just wack with my fist. In fact I have learned to use a moderate tap with my mallet on the skirts as they can be difficult to release otherwise.

My top and skirt are made of eastern maple. I don't know if that makes a difference.

Bill

[Simon MacGowen]

Bench just under 1 1/2" thick and have had zero problem with the Gramercy holdfasts. Did you bang hard? As other suggested, beef up the thickness (add a plywood sheet, say) and see if it makes a difference.

The Gramercy holdfasts are the best value-for-money hand tool in my opinion.

Simon

[Luke Dupont]

I am using SYP, for reference.

Hmm... Also, I drilled my holes with a 3/4 irwin auger bit. I find they can be a bit on the large side compared to my other auger bits (dimensioned dowels usually fit tight in holes drilled by my flea-market finds, and slightly loose in those drilled by my modern irwins).

Also, maybe there was some wiggle induced since I was using a brace? Hm. Tried drilling an 11/16th hole and it was too tight, being exactly the same diameter as the holdfast.

Maybe I'll try the dimple mod.

> Simon, how hard do I need to hit them? I hit them firmly a number of times, but I do live in an apartment so I try to keep the noise down, generally. Maybe I'll try harder next time, but it seems like if they were going to grip, they would've done so.

[Kirby Krieger]

My top and skirt are made of eastern maple. I don't know if that makes a difference.
Bill

I will hypothesize that the hardness of the wood does make a difference, as, assuredly, does the _actual_ thickness of the hole. My "starter" bench is a Siemsen-Nicholson surfaced with scheiße-pine 2 x 12's. I added (per the directions) 1-by stock behind most of the apron, and 2-by stock under most of the top. In places where this blocking has _not_ been added, the Gramercy hold-fasts do not hold (I have rough sanded the holdfast "equatorially"; I have not dimpled them). So I've ended up, somewhat awkwardly, fitting blocking wherever I want a holdfast hole and don't have a thick-enough support.

This is, of course, completely in accordance with Tools for Working Wood's recommendations (https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/251/Some%20Tips%20on%20Using%20Our%20Gramercy%20Holdfa sts) for the use of their Gramercy holdfasts.

Even so, my Gramercy holdfasts don't hold as well as I'd like. I think there are two issues — one, I don't drive them hard enough, and two, the "palm" is not actually perpendicular to the "spine". To remedy the first, I purchased and use a 3-lb engineer's hammer, which I faced with leather. I have no remedy for the second, though a thick leather pad Gooped to the palm helps.

I would further hypothesize that router-bit holes are smaller in diameter than holes made with a power drill. If a paddle bit is used, even more so.

In the marginal cases — at the limits of what TfWW recommends — harder wood probably helps, and on-spec holes probably helps.

[David Eisenhauer]

I have to slap them pretty hard when using them on my thinner (combined) 2-1/4" thick bench, but that bench has an old Masonite top and is slippery. I'm pretty sure I would make too much noise for apartment use on my thinner bench.

[Kirby Krieger]

Luke — I recommend increasing the holdfast holes' depths by adding blocking, _and_ trying one or both of the Lee-Valley holdfasts (http://www.leevalley.com/US/home/Search.aspx?action=n). The rods are deeply and sharply grooved, and the tightening and releasing actions are much _much_ more variable and controlled. I don't presume their value to you — they are expensive — but I am happy to have them, on three counts:
- they work better than my Gramercy holdfasts (they hold better, release more easily, and the amount of pressure can be fine-tuned),
- they are much quieter (I work at home, mostly at night), and
- I'm not someone who finds whacking anything a well-thought behavior.

They have one major and two minor drawbacks I've noticed:
- the heads come down almost to the level of the "palm". As such, if you use the palm as a hold-down _and_ simultaneously use the post as a dog (which I often do), you'll have to use risers when working thin stock. (Note that the screw-control holdfast can be advanced prior to use; this may provide the clearance needed.)
- removing them from holes in order to relocate them must be done carefully; you can't pull them out without considering the direction of your hand like you can the Gramercy holdfasts.
- the reach of the screw-control holdfast is, for me, too far (7 ¾" from post to center of palm). The Gramercy holdfasts are, imho, perfectly proportioned (6 ¼" from post to center of palm).

If you do get the quick-release holdfast (the "duck"), I recommend putting some heavy oil on the axle and on the part of the head of the upper, moving, "beak" that bears on the lower, immovable "jaw". Mine made an awful whine, and felt like it was grinding, until I added this lubricant. I also fixed the rod to the head with reversible "blue" thread-locking compound. Do use gloves, as per the instructions, when assembling them. The metal spicules are painful when embedded and can be troublesome to remove.

[Roy Lindberry]

I am using SYP, for reference.

Hmm... Also, I drilled my holes with a 3/4 irwin auger bit. I find they can be a bit on the large side compared to my other auger bits (dimensioned dowels usually fit tight in holes drilled by my flea-market finds, and slightly loose in those drilled by my modern irwins).

Also, maybe there was some wiggle induced since I was using a brace? Hm. Tried drilling an 11/16th hole and it was too tight, being exactly the same diameter as the holdfast.

Maybe I'll try the dimple mod.


You don't want the holes tight. If anything, you want them a little looser. The holdfast works by the shank getting cocked in the hole and wedging against the top and bottom of it.

[Simon MacGowen]

I hit them firmly a number of times, but I do live in an apartment so I try to keep the noise down, generally. Maybe I'll try harder next time, but it seems like if they were going to grip, they would've done so.

Do rule out that as the source of your problem. The hits should not be less forceful than the force you use for the dry fitting (of a carcase, say). Sometimes, the force I use also depends on the thickness of the workpiece. I use my holdfasts as is and didn't sand or dimple the shafts. If secured, you should be able to lift your workbench with the holdfast hammered in place.

Simon

[Kirby Krieger]

This caught my attention.

Caught my attention too. I just measured all four of my Gramercy holdfasts. In each case, when placed in a holdfast hole with nothing under the palm, the post projected _at least_ ½" before even beginning to move off perpendicular.

@Luke — can you post a picture? The part of the post nearest the palm, at the surface of the bench, should not in any way arc forward or touch the edge of the holdfast hole when the holdfast is inserted.

[Mike Brady]

They (Grammercy ) didn't work at all well in my 3-1/4" ash top. The Lie-Nielsens I bought next are fine. The holdfasts with screw adjustments made by Lee Valley are fantastic. I use one of those probably 90% of the time. Adding leather pads to the "foot" that contacts your work piece improves the holding power of any holdfast and protects the work from damage. I use water-based flooring contact cement to do all fastening of leather to anything else: vice jaws, the above mentioned pads, making strops.........

[Luke Dupont]

Hey guys! Quick update: I scuffed up the metal as suggested, and the Gramercy holdfasts work quite well now. In fact, for my light bench, I can simply drop them in the hole with a bit of added force, and they will lock down well enough to lift my bench.

I do notice something, though! The metal lip doesn't seem to grip very well, and my work will easily slide out. I went back and scuffed it up as well, and while it helps a little, it's still not that great. It also marks your work up quite a bit.

I have some rubber shelving liner, and some gorilla glue. Would it be wise to glue the liner to the face of the pad?

[Jim Koepke]

Hey guys! Quick update: I scuffed up the metal as suggested, and the Gramercy holdfasts work quite well now. In fact, for my light bench, I can simply drop them in the hole with a bit of added force, and they will lock down well enough to lift my bench.

I do notice something, though! The metal lip doesn't seem to grip very well, and my work will easily slide out. I went back and scuffed it up as well, and while it helps a little, it's still not that great. It also marks your work up quite a bit.

I have some rubber shelving liner, and some gorilla glue. Would it be wise to glue the liner to the face of the pad?

I would look for a scrap of leather or a piece of cork to use.

jtk

[Luke Dupont]

I would look for a scrap of leather or a piece of cork to use.

jtk

For leather, would you put the smooth side down facing the work, or the rough side? My intuition is that the smooth side might grip/prevent sliding better, at least for pieces planed smooth.

[Kirby Krieger]

Leather. Craft stores sell bags for under $10 US.

Rough (80 grit) sand the holdfast palms at 0° and 90° (you want roughen the surface, not smooth it). Glue the leather smooth side to the metal palm. Over-size the leather, then trim to fit. Leave a small (⅛" or less) "overage" of leather — if you ever swing the holdfast into something, it will soften the blow. Glue with a flexible bonding agent — E6000 (https://www.google.com/search?q=E6000) or equivalent. If the holdfast palm isn't flat (few are, IME), shim or otherwise provide for shaping the leather to meet the metal.
https://www.evernote.com/l/AG3mtuKD6ltJe7bTE0nLmxEdaAWnMpuI1xUB/image.png

That said, I have moved on to using mostly Veritas hold-downs, both the quick-release and the screw-tight ones. Recommended.

[Niels Cosman]

I have used the grammercy holdfast for years in a maple laminated workbench top (McMaster) which is ~1-3/4 they have always worked extremely well. I did clean them and scuff them with course sandpaper right out of the box.