Sawing Square

[Luke Dupont]

Well, I've been at this sawing thing for quite a while now, and it's one of my least favorite activities by far. It seems that, despite working very carefully, and even utilizing knife walls with step-downs, I can't saw square. I can saw straight, but only in one axis, and it seems that when I try tilting the saw to establish one angle and then the other, I ultimately just create two lines on different angles intersecting, and the first doesn't seem to help guide the second.

I have built a square bench-hook that I use as a shooting board, but I don't really enjoy shooting boards and would prefer to reduce the need to; it's a lot of work, and messes up the dimensions of my pieces. I guess I could build a mitre box, of course, but it seems like this is a fundamental skill, and it affects all areas including joinery! For instance, my Dados often come out loose fitting on one side, or even slightly angled out of square, because the walls weren't sawn perfectly square. I'll inevitably achieve a straight line across the board, but not vertically. With such thin stock/depth as references, how does one achieve a square cut in both axises? Is this just a learned thing, where you learn to feel for vertical? Should I be cutting at a specific angle to ensure squareness?

While I realize there will always be some inaccuracy, I'd just like to be more in the ball-park. Is this just something that takes lots more practice? Perhaps I should just take a 2x4 and go to town until I develop a better feeling for "straight".

[lowell holmes]

See the link below. It is the knife wall concept. It works.

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/editors-blog/an-intro-to-marking-knives-part-one

I make a "knife wall" on an edge and a face. That way, the cut is square.

After a while, muscle memory will develop and you will not need the wall, just the scribe lines.

Also see the following:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/newsletters/Woodworking/8/3/article2-a.pdf

[Brent Cutshall]

Finally a saw question on SAWmill creek that I didn't ask :p. Hi Luke, I don't know if I heard you right but to saw different a angle in board, you'll hafta mark exactly what you want and then maybe make multiple cuts. Sawing what you want is an art that either takes time to learn or something that just comes easy to you. If I didn't hear you right please tell me.

[Phil Mueller]

Still working on my saw skills as well. The knife wall Lowell suggests works well. Also nothing wrong with clamping a 90* board up against the line and using it as a guide for vertical.

Check out RenaissanceWW YouTube video; how to saw straight...gave me some good tips on body/arm/hand position. I do think this is one of those things that just takes a lot of practice.

[Patrick Chase]

Well, I've been at this sawing thing for quite a while now, and it's one of my least favorite activities by far. It seems that, despite working very carefully, and even utilizing knife walls with step-downs, I can't saw square. I can saw straight, but only in one axis, and it seems that when I try tilting the saw to establish one angle and then the other, I ultimately just create two lines on different angles intersecting, and the first doesn't seem to help guide the second.

I have built a square bench-hook that I use as a shooting board, but I don't really enjoy shooting boards and would prefer to reduce the need to; it's a lot of work, and messes up the dimensions of my pieces. I guess I could build a mitre box, of course, but it seems like this is a fundamental skill, and it affects all areas including joinery! For instance, my Dados often come out loose fitting on one side, or even slightly angled out of square, because the walls weren't sawn perfectly square. I'll inevitably achieve a straight line across the board, but not vertically. With such thin stock/depth as references, how does one achieve a square cut in both axises? Is this just a learned thing, where you learn to feel for vertical? Should I be cutting at a specific angle to ensure squareness?

While I realize there will always be some inaccuracy, I'd just like to be more in the ball-park. Is this just something that takes lots more practice? Perhaps I should just take a 2x4 and go to town until I develop a better feeling for "straight".

Without seeing you it's hard to say what's going on, but if I had to bet I'd guess that your mechanics are off (specifically blade-wrist-elbow-shoulder alignment through the stroke). When that happens you end up with the sort of "coupling" you describe, where fixing one axis breaks the other.

It's sort of like a golf swing - you need lots of practice, but before that will do much good you need to understand where you are and where you're trying to go. I've made videos of myself sawing in the past (I'm not going to repeat what my wife said), and a lot of people saw in front of a mirror.

Phil basically said the same thing in a slightly different way.

[Stanley Covington]

Check plumb of layout line beforehand (at least until you figure all this out).

Align your eye, shoulder pivot point, elbow pivot point, and wrist pivot point in a single vertical plane. Point index finger parallel with this plane.

Light grip, loose wrist that pivots freely. All the parts move within this plane.

Watch both sides of the sawblade.

No downward pressure: The saw cuts because its sharp and wants to cut. If it isn't sharp, who's fault is that? If it doesn't want to cut, who's fault is that? Make the saw happy.

Be conscious of your elbow brushing your side at the same place at every return stroke. Remember the plane.

Stop sawing immediately when you realize you are off course.

Turn off the radio. Tell your wife and kids you will be using stinky stuff, and they must leave you alone. Practice. Practice cutting parallel vertical lines in scrap.

Pay attention to what works and doesn't work. Stop and reflect on what worked and didn't work. Inject a bit of ki into each cut.

May the Force be with you, young Sawalker.

[Robert Engel]

It is a matter of skill development, as Patrick said.

One suggestion might be to make a guide block for the saw just to tune your muscle memory.

Another option is to simply cut a bit long and use a shooting board to achieve squareness, but this seems to me like a surrender.

But perhaps it isn't you, its the tool. Worth looking at.

What kind of saw are you using? Some people have better results with Japanese saws.

Another thing to look at is the quality of saw and the condition of the saw. For example, if the set isn't right a saw can tend to wander.

[Pat Barry]

A tip I heard a long time ago and which I use when cutting is to watch the reflection in the saw blade. Of course, you need to have your saw blade fairly well cleaned up, not mirror perfect, but enough to see the reflection of the workpiece on the side of the blade. Use the reflected view and line up the reflected edge with the workpiece edge and that's all you need to keep track of and produce cut square cuts.

[Steve Voigt]

If you have tried all of the above and you still can't saw straight, you may have cross-dominant vision. I wrote about it on page 2 of this thread:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232995-Joinery-saw-technique/page2
and there was some ensuing discussion.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Luke

Sawing to two adjacent lines should be enough. Clearly more is needed if the vertical line is off.

The aim is to develop muscle memory combined with a sense of plumb. After some years of this, I just do it. Even planing with a jointer on a edge. Almost inevitably it ends up square. I cannot say what specifically I did. It just developed.

Thinking about this, however, I recalled a technique that David Charlesworth uses to align a chisel. This may help you with the sawing.

Before paring, David placed the chisel on a reference surface that is the same angle at which he plans to pare. Once he has does this a few times, and thereby trained his hand in the desired angle, he proceeds to pare with the chisel.

What you can do is align the saw plate with a reference to recognise the angle you desire (such as plumb). Do this a few times, then complete a practice cut with the saw. Check the angle. Do it all over again a few times.

The other method often recommended is to just saw down vertical pencil lines. Done enough, this should also lead to a sense of plumb.

Anyone with a similar technique in mind?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Nick Stokes]

If you have tried all of the above and you still can't saw straight, you may have cross-dominant vision. I wrote about it on page 2 of this thread:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232995-Joinery-saw-technique/page2
and there was some ensuing discussion.

This is a very real thing. Also impacts me when I try to shoot a shotgun or a rifle.

[Tom M King]

This is why I'm absolutely sure I would make a really poor woodworking instructor. I never think about any of this stuff.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Sometimes, placing a square next to the cut so that I have a vertical reference is sufficient. At that point, as long as there is an even gap between the reference square and the blade..... This does not help you keep the cut perpendicular to the face, of course, but it will help the vertical cut.

[Prashun Patel]

Luke:

1) What type of saw are you using? Western/Japanese and what TPI and is it rip filed or cross cut filed?
2) At the risk of sounding glib: practice. Mark vertical lines on an easy to saw wood, like poplar, using 3/4" stock and just repeat. At the instant you go off mark, stop, and move to the next line with the intent of getting a milimeter further each time. There is no amount of internet diagnosing that will compensate from repeated practice. You will find your error - and you will find how to correct it. Keep telling yourself it's possible to do, and you will get there. Sorry if that sounds hoakie. It's true. Another practice technique is to saw SLOW, and lift slightly on the return, and push down deliberately on the cut stroke; don't just go back and forth. Yes, you have to let the saw do the work, but pushing like this exaggerates your hand's tendency to help or hinder the line. Whatever your practice technique, set about to do it a little bit every day, repeatedly. You will get there...
3) Don't shoot down the shooting board yet. While you're right not to use it to subsidize poor sawing technique, it can help fix inaccuracies in MARKING, which can be harder to control than saw technique. A well set up shooting board and plane is a remarkable tool.

[Reinis Kanders]

Check that your bench is level. After I moved my bench my cuts and jointed edges were consistently off and it was because my bench was not level/plumb.

[Luke Dupont]

Wow. Lots of good advice! I've got a number of things to try now.


> Derek Cohen
That's a great tip about using a reference surface to get a feel for the angle. I think I'll try that. I have difficulty with paring and planing as well, tending to be slightly off to one side; though, I think some of that's due in part to my vise being mounted slightly off...

> Stanley Covington
Ki. Got it. ;)

> Prashun
I've used/regularly use a number of saws; mainly, a Douzuki and Ryouba. I also use bow saws that I've been making. I get pretty equal results with them all.

>Renis Kanders
Hm! Didn't think of checking for level. I will say this; I think I tend to be off in one direction consistently. So either it's a problem with my stance/muscle memory, or maybe the "vertical" I'm feeling for is not actually square to my work bench.

[Jim Koepke]

One of the improvements to my sawing came with a better understanding of eye dominance as Steve mentioned.

Many things come into play when sawing. First is the saw. If the saw has uneven set it will tend to wander. To test for this mark a line on a piece of scrap and gently start the saw. Do not grip tightly. Does the saw track the line? If the saw tracks the line without any influence of the operator, it is good. If the saw is the problem it should veer off to the same side each time. If the saw veers one way on one cut and then the other on the next cut it is likely operator influence. This can often be traced back to too tight of a grip on the saw. Let the saw do the work, the operator is only there to provide a brain and the energy.

If you do have a camera with video capability, video yourself sawing to see if your mechanics are good. One person visiting my shop was having trouble sawing. His hand was moving all over the place. Once he got his hand to stay fixed on an imaginary axis and line his saw worked better at following the marked line. As others have said in the past, the hand should move like a piston and the arm is the connecting rod.

At times a triangle has helped me:

335603

I was just messing with some scrap and remembered some of my dad's old drafting equipment. He made ones like this when he was in high school shop. This is a fairly fat one for drawing but it works like training wheels for sawing.

Sometimes for practicing my rip cutting a piece will be marked with a lot of lines spaced 1/8-1/4". After these are cut I will cut between the lines without a new mark.

Another thing that helped me was noticing that my sawing was always off the same way. This was most likely due to eye cross dominance issues. My sawing was improved by remembering and compensating when sawing.

Most of my improvement has been by not trying to work to super tight dimensions, allowing a little for the shooting board and paying close attention to what is being done. If time in the shop has been lacking, it is then time for a little practicing.

jtk

[Dave Anderson NH]

Steve Voigt hit the nail squarely on the head. I'd almost guarantee a major part, if not all, of you problem is cross eye dominance. It is something I have to watch out for all of the time when I saw since I'm left handed with right eye dominance. On the other hand having the right eye dominance made firearm shooting far easier for me than for my other left handed friends who were left eye dominant.

[Luke Dupont]

Steve Voigt hit the nail squarely on the head. I'd almost guarantee a major par,t if not al,l of you problem is cross eye dominance. It is something I have to watch out for all of the time when I saw since I'm left handed with right eye dominance. On the other hand having the right eye dominance made firearm shooting far easier for me than for my other left handed friends who were left eye dominant.

Hmm. When I practiced defensive shooting, I explicitly made the choice to practice with either eye, and either hand, and while it took practice, it works. I don't really think it's good to rigidly hold to using a single, dominant eye in all situations. It does seem that I was more right-eye (and R-hand) dominant, but I can't honestly tell you what eye I'm using when sawing. I am rather ambidextrous either way, so long as I take the time to develop those habits/skills.

You might be on to something, though. I think I'll actually try explicitly sawing using one eye, and then the other, and see if I notice any difference. I guess it might even be good to practice sawing with my left hand as well; who knows, I might end up being better with it!

[Jim Koepke]

I guess it might even be good to practice sawing with my left hand as well; who knows, I might end up being better with it!

To me it is almost an embarrassment to discover I am better at something left handed than right handed.

What is also interesting is how clumsy some of the normally left hand operations feel when doing them right handed. Like holding a try square right handed while marking left handed.

Some operations on occasion will just work better from the other side.

jtk

[James Pallas]

This is a confidence builder that was taught to me. Set a board in the vise with no marks, level the board. Get out your favorite saw. Set the saw on the board close your eyes and try to saw plumb. Most people I have seen are very surprised to see just how good of a tool the human body is just by feeling. When we get the eyes involved we start to steer the saw instead of letting it cut. Try it out for yourself.
Jim

[Tom McMahon]

Sawing square is not an independent process, it is related to chiseling, carving, finding the bevel angle when sharpening by hand and many other practices done with hand tools. It involves developing hand eye coordination and a sensitivity to the tools and materials. As David Pye says the workmanship of risk. The more things you do with the simplest means the quicker this sensitivity will developed, not only saw by hand, sharpen without a jig, cut chamfers with a chisel, trim tenons with a chisel, the more you do without aids and jigs the faster it will come. You must become the jig. Eventually the tools become an extension of your body and you just saw without thinking about square or straight. In the mean time just make stuff, its the best practice, realize the things you make will get better and better the more you make.

[Dave Anderson NH]

When I was speaking about dealing with firearms Luke I was referring to my military experience. With the ejection port on the right side of both automatic rifles and the M-60 machine gun ( I was a Marine 0331) the burns from ejecting hot brass are not fun to deal with for someone shooting left handed. As for the M1911A1, I never could hit anything with either hand.

[Dennis Ryan]

It was said earlier in this thread but is worth repeating. Use the reflection of the wood on the saw plate. The board and its reflection should look like one long continuous board. The reflection will magnify any errors so you will know when you are off track. This obviously works with a shiny new saw, but even a tarnished plate will show some reflection, albeit not as well

[Patrick Chase]

When I was speaking about dealing with firearms Luke I was referring to my military experience. With the ejection port on the right side of both automatic rifles and the M-60 machine gun ( I was a Marine 0331) the burns from ejecting hot brass are not fun to deal with for someone shooting left handed. As for the M1911A1, I never could hit anything with either hand.

Looks like Luke brought a saturday night special to a machine-gun fight. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I thought they put the T&E knobs on the tripods on the left side specifically to prevent anybody from firing rearward-ejecting weapons like the M60 and Minimi/M249 left-handed? Of course that doesn't help on a bipod...

[Brian Holcombe]

If you are rip cutting with a ryoba, I find it helpful to lean the board toward me so that I can pull the saw while seeing the effect on the cut. My biggest 'ah-ha' was in seeing my elbow-wrist-shoulder alignment and found that I had to stand in what seemed like an awkward position to align it. That same position now feels right.

Clamp your work while you are practicing, holding work with one hand and sawing with the other is tough when you are practicing both.

[John Kananis]

When I was speaking about dealing with firearms Luke I was referring to my military experience. With the ejection port on the right side of both automatic rifles and the M-60 machine gun ( I was a Marine 0331) the burns from ejecting hot brass are not fun to deal with for someone shooting left handed. As for the M1911A1, I never could hit anything with either hand.

OT: Semper Fidelis, brother - 0331 (heavy guns .50 cal) - 1/9

[Dave Anderson NH]

John,

Semper fi
B 1/7 1968
1st Combined Action Group 1969

[Roy Lindberry]

Well, I've been at this sawing thing for quite a while now, and it's one of my least favorite activities by far. It seems that, despite working very carefully, and even utilizing knife walls with step-downs, I can't saw square. I can saw straight, but only in one axis, and it seems that when I try tilting the saw to establish one angle and then the other, I ultimately just create two lines on different angles intersecting, and the first doesn't seem to help guide the second.

I have built a square bench-hook that I use as a shooting board, but I don't really enjoy shooting boards and would prefer to reduce the need to; it's a lot of work, and messes up the dimensions of my pieces. I guess I could build a mitre box, of course, but it seems like this is a fundamental skill, and it affects all areas including joinery! For instance, my Dados often come out loose fitting on one side, or even slightly angled out of square, because the walls weren't sawn perfectly square. I'll inevitably achieve a straight line across the board, but not vertically. With such thin stock/depth as references, how does one achieve a square cut in both axises? Is this just a learned thing, where you learn to feel for vertical? Should I be cutting at a specific angle to ensure squareness?

While I realize there will always be some inaccuracy, I'd just like to be more in the ball-park. Is this just something that takes lots more practice? Perhaps I should just take a 2x4 and go to town until I develop a better feeling for "straight".


If the "vertical" aspect of your cut ends up angling away from your body (very common in my experience), it is likely that your body is too far away from the cut. You should be very close to the cut line, so your cutting arm freely slides alongside your body like a piston. I don't know if that makes sense, but try repositioning your body closer and further away (side to side) from the cut, and see what it does to the final result.

[Mike Allen1010]

[QUOTE=Derek Cohen;2553051].

What you can do is align the saw plate with a reference to recognise the angle you desire (such as plumb). Do this a few times, then complete a practice cut with the saw. Check the angle. Do it all over again a few times.

+1 to what Derek said. I keep a small square hanging on my saw bench just for this purpose. What works for me:

1) When learning saw skills, MUCH easier to achieve straight and square at a saw bench (about knee high), vs. at the work bench. At the saw bench there is a greater vertical distance between your eye and the work piece, which makes it a lot easier to see when saw plate is square to the the work piece.

2) Start your cut focusing on Splitting the layout line. Once you get your cut established (say 1/2"), set the square on the work piece and align the saw plate to 90 degree angle (eg "square").

Once you've got cut started and established 90 degree alignment of the saw plate with the square, keep your right eye directly over the layout line. Keep your head still and relax your grip. Focus on just pushing the saw away, no downward presure. If your saw is sharp and we'll set, it will absolutely track dead straight. If you're having trouble starting the saw straight on the layout line, adding a bit more set will allow you to "steer" the cut so you can correct for not starting straight.

Once you have a bit more experience, you'll want less set so the saw will track exactly where you start it and track laser straight with no effort.

Hang in there, with a little practice you will get the hang of sawing straight and square without having to think about it.

All the best, Mike

[Bill McDermott]

Luke, What helped me was to be very careful about the layout lines, then to "chase" the line. In other words, start at one of the corners by breaking the aris very carefully. Get that very first notch right, or correct it. Then lower the blade as you very lightly saw so that the kerf reaches from that initial notch across the board. Then you can do essentially the same thing down the other face. If you get a straight, shallow line across the top, then stay in that line as you drop down the side facing you, it may help you cut square. It certainly helped me. In the end, layout accuracy and learning to cut to the line were the real key to square. You'll get it.

[bridger berdel]

I have cross dominant vision- right hand, left eye. it's definitely a pain. the solution is the same, though. practise.



If you have tried all of the above and you still can't saw straight, you may have cross-dominant vision. I wrote about it on page 2 of this thread:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?232995-Joinery-saw-technique/page2
and there was some ensuing discussion.

[Lenore Epstein]

I'm left-handed but I don't appear to have a dominant eye. I wonder whether that's because one eye is farsighted and the other is nearsighted, so using tools falls right at the point where neither eye sees well. I still need tons of sawing practice, but maybe when I go from very good cuts to mangled ones and back without thinking I've changed a thing, I've actually moved just enough to switch eyes. Time to play around with squinching or tape over a lens and see if that reveals anything.

This has been an EXCELLENT thread--I actually printed it out so I can scan it for tips as I progress!