Jointer guards: Pork chop vs. Euro style

[Anthony Whitesell]

Two questions:

1) Anyone have a link to a video on how the euro style guard works on a jointer?

2) Has any converted their jointer from a pork chop to euro style guard, specifically interested in converting a G0490?

TIA

[Jim Becker]

My MiniMax FS350 J/P came with a big, orange pork chop and I replaced it with a Euro guard as soon as I could source one. I much prefer the Euro guard, personally, and since I almost never edge joint, the cutters are pretty much never exposed while the machine is running. Most of the time, I'm flattening stock and the bridge (Euro) guard works great for me.

[Anthony Whitesell]

My MiniMax FS350 J/P came with a big, orange pork chop and I replaced it with a Euro guard as soon as I could source one. I much prefer the Euro guard, personally, and since I almost never edge joint, the cutters are pretty much never exposed while the machine is running. Most of the time, I'm flattening stock and the bridge (Euro) guard works great for me.

Jim, do you recall which guard and where you got it from?

I have been trying to find some videos (mostly youtube). It seems to me like there are two flavors, a spring loaded version and a variable/fixed height (it is adjusted to the height and does not spring closed to recover the knives afterward). Am I on target?

[Alan Lightstone]

Funny, I much prefer the porkchop guard, but my Laguna machine came stock with a Euro guard, so, obviously, I make do.

[Rick Lizek]

I'm amazed at how many people don't know how to search. Been using the Internet for 22 years and asked a question on a so called pro forum and the answers were so stupid. I never asked another question. I just go to the answers.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ft6MFmjmzhc
10 seconds.
Euro guard is a no brainier. Your hands are always guarded.

[John TenEyck]

I don't consider it a no brainer. I had a Euro guard on my Inca for 25+ years. The blades are completely exposed the thickness of your board when edge jointing. And if you are face jointing a really thick board there is a lot of air under the guard before and after the board goes over the blades. With the pork chop guard, like on my MiniMax FS35, the blades are exposed at various times, too, especially when jointing really wide stock. Neither guard is 100% safe. I've had the pork chop guard less than a year but, overall, I like it better. You never have to adjust it; you just use it.

John

[Anthony Whitesell]

I'm amazed at how many people don't know how to search. Been using the Internet for 22 years and asked a question on a so called pro forum and the answers were so stupid. I never asked another question. I just go to the answers.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ft6MFmjmzhc
10 seconds.
Euro guard is a no brainier. Your hands are always guarded.

I absolutely agree. Thank you for posting the most popular link that came up in my searches. My hope was to find more (possibly obscure) links than the two manufacturers or styles (not sure if they are only of two manufacturers) of euro guards I found.

[Jesse Busenitz]

I had an old Yates American 8" jointer that was a pork chop but with a hinge so the board could go underneath on 1"- stock or so but also worked standard for edge jointing. Google Yates J-180.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I don't consider it a no brainer. I had a Euro guard on my Inca for 25+ years. The blades are completely exposed the thickness of your board when edge jointing. And if you are face jointing a really thick board there is a lot of air under the guard before and after the board goes over the blades. With the pork chop guard, like on my MiniMax FS35, the blades are exposed at various times, too, especially when jointing really wide stock. Neither guard is 100% safe. I've had the pork chop guard less than a year but, overall, I like it better. You never have to adjust it; you just use it.

John

From the videos I found, edge jointing seems to be a wash between the spring loaded guards (euro or pork chop). I do agree than opening the "extra" space under the euro guard versus the pork chop is a consideration. One thing that I can see happening (if you having a really bad day) is that you have a push stick or finger on the front edge/side of the board. With the euro guard, it won't allow it to pass over the knives whereas the pork chop (isn't there a better name?) will open and allow the push stick or finger to pass though. If low enough the pork chop guard will open and allow it to pass into the knives.

I should note here that I am looking for the safer guard. I am looking for a different actuation of the guard. A euro style guard than opens vertically opposed to the pork chop opening in an arc. I am adding a power feeder to the jointer (the test rig worked really well last week). The pork chop swing open action forces the feeder to be further from the knives than I would like. The euro guard would allow the feeder to be closer to the start of the outfeed table and knives.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I had an old Yates American 8" jointer that was a pork chop but with a hinge so the board could go underneath on 1"- stock or so but also worked standard for edge jointing. Google Yates J-180.

Jesse, I googled "Yates J-180" but could only find planers.

[David Kumm]

SUVA makes guards but they cost about as much as a jointer. The type of guard becomes more of an issue when exceeding 16" in width. Not much of an issue with 8". Dave

[Anthony Whitesell]

SUVA makes guards but they cost about as much as a jointer. The type of guard becomes more of an issue when exceeding 16" in width. Not much of an issue with 8". Dave

I thought it was my imagination when I converted from english pounds to US dollars!

Any links to the Mori Bearn 300 guard in action? Is it similar to the Jet JJP-12? I found this link of the Jet JJP-12 in action (first 5 seconds), I don't care for the fact it does not spring closed. The way the suvamatic works (springing closed in both the face and edge jointing) is what I was expecting. Are there any other options similar to the Suva at a respectable price?

[Bill Orbine]

Try googling "Yates American J-138" (or J-136).

[David Kumm]

The old Yates #1 was their heavy jointer. The 131 and 138 8" models were their lighter J line. Dave

[Rick Lizek]

Just look for jointers with euroguards and find something close to the size of your jointer. A 12" could modified to work on an 8". I could easily make one from scratch.

[John Gornall]

I was face jointing a piece 4" thick by 12" wide and the euroguard seemed pointless. A porkchop would have covered the blades until the wood got to the blades and snapped shut after. The euroguard just sat there 4" above the table with the blades wide open. I will put some thought into reworking the euroguard so the workpiece lifts it and it drops to the table after the workpiece passes. That's the way it should have worked from the factory.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I was face jointing a piece 4" thick by 12" wide and the euroguard seemed pointless. A porkchop would have covered the blades until the wood got to the blades and snapped shut after. The euroguard just sat there 4" above the table with the blades wide open. I will put some thought into reworking the euroguard so the workpiece lifts it and it drops to the table after the workpiece passes. That's the way it should have worked from the factory.

John, you have indirectly answered my question. There are in fact two style of euro guards. The style you have that must be set to a height and stays at that height until adjusted lower, and the Suvamatic that is spring loaded (very obvious from the youtube video linked previously). Is Suvamatic the only spring loaded euro guard? Has anyone reworked the former style (fixed/manually adjusted height) to be spring loaded? If so, how about some pics and a short write-up on what it took to do it (and would you do it again.

[John Gornall]

I priced a Suva guard and if I remember correctly with shipping and taxes it was over 3000 to my location.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I found one in the UK, excluding shipping was 1200 USD. Is Suva the only spring return or spring loaded euro guard? I find it hard to believe, but am also finding it hard to find another.

[Cody Colston]

Obviously, the Euro guard is superior to the porkchop style. After all, it's European. It has to be better. The only downside is that you have to hold a pinkie finger extended while jointing stock. :rolleyes:

[Rick Lizek]

http://www.shopgearinc.com/products/co-matic-power-feeders/af114j-jointerfeeder.php
Are you using a standard power feed or a jointer power feed. The one I linked to is made by Comatic exclusively for jointers.

[John Sincerbeaux]

Hopefully Sawstop will come to the rescue and make jointing safe?

[Anthony Whitesell]

Just a regular power feeder, hence the issue with the guard. I didn't even know they made one specifically for jointers. At the price of the Comac one in the link, I couldn't afford it anyway.

[Rod Sheridan]

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvakH09gEG4

The only issue is that the non spring loaded Euro guard isn't legal in the USA due to OSHA regulations.

I like the Euro guard much more than the pork chop style..........Regards, Rod.

[Dave Lehnert]

Sure it wont help in your situation but post this about jointer guards.

I have a Shopsmith 4" jointer. It has a blade guard I always liked using.
It is a blade guard and feather board. You adjust it so it will only open wide enough for the stock you are jointing and the pressure of the feather board fingers keep to tight against the fence.
Such a simple but useful thing I wish my larger JET jointer had.

http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/images/jointer_mvmounted.jpg

http://www.shopsmith.com/ownersite/catalog/j_featherguardretro.htm

[Anthony Whitesell]

So it still stands, does anyone know of a spring loaded euro guard (like the Suva) that doesn't equal the cost of a new machine?

[Sean Tracey]

The pork chop guard moves out of the way whereas the Euro guard does not.

I'm not sure what the pork chop guard does except make a person feel better because the jaws of spinning death are hidden.

It depends on how the accident happens as to which is better.

[John Blazy]

I ripped my guards off my jointers years ago. No problem (assuming I have no accidents, which hasn't happened yet). Not recommending my methods, just sayin. I add guards depending on the project. No more dangerous than an exposed tablesaw blade.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, do you recall which guard and where you got it from?

I remember it was something like $300 but don't recall where I bought it from...it may have been sourced through the kindness of a friend at MiniMax at the time. The type I have, however, is the one most seen. You do adjust for thickness, but it's spring loaded in a way that it goes down when you bring the board back over it for the next pass so the blades are covered closer while moving the stock back. A lever on the side allows me to swing it away when I switch to thickness mode on my J/P.

[Ole Anderson]

I watched a demo of the euro style guard on a Hammer and really don't see the advantage of that style over the pork chop style. The pork chop, being spring loaded is always automatically covering the used portion of the blades, whether you are surfacing wide stock or edge jointing 1/4" boards. With the Euro style, you need to hopscotch the guard with the push blocks leading to an uneven feed rate. I do see, however that the Euro style does a better job of covering the blades at the end of the cut.

[Jim Becker]

Ole, I never thought I'd like it as much as I do, but after cracking not one, but two of the big plastic "porkchops" and deciding to buy the Euro guard, the ease of use for repeated passes for flattening wide board made it become a no-brainer to me. If I did a lot of edge jointing wide stock, I might think a little differently, but my edge-jointing, as noted earlier, is pretty nill since I have the slider. For those few times I do edge joint, that exposed knife area is so narrow, that it's nearly inconsequential.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm another fan of the pork chop style, but haven't used the Euro so can't fairly evaluate....just does't seem as handy to me. One thing I don't understand is how guys are milling their stock so that they don't joint the edge? If your milling rough stock aren't you doing faces and edges? I work with everything from 4/4 to 10/4 and everything gets 1 edge and 1 face, so having a guard that's always set to do what I need it to without constant tinkering is the way to go for me.

Anyway the real reason I posted is if your planning on using your jointer with a feeder.....why do you need a guard anyway? Guards are to keep fingers away from cutter....no fingers near the cutters, no need for guards;)

good luck,
JeffD

[glenn bradley]

Obviously, the Euro guard is superior to the porkchop style. After all, it's European. It has to be better. The only downside is that you have to hold a pinkie finger extended while jointing stock. :rolleyes:


Bwaa-haaa-haaa

[Brian Millspaw]

I'm a fan of the porkchop. although I have never used a euro guard, I have thought them over extensively. Last year I bought an ancient 20" Fay & Egan 316.
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There was no functioning guard and my first thought was to build a porkchop, but it would swing so far into the walk path that it would impede the work. I started thinking about the euro guard and came to the same conclusion. I even engineered a homemade surty guard on paper and looked for one for sale.
Then I saw an old wadkin jointer with this type guard. like a good solution, so i made one. Its been working great for my situation so far
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[David Kumm]

My old Porters have a porkchop guard that is pretty well designed but my favorite ( don't have a picture ) is a porkchop made from wooden boards segmented like a rolltop desk. The guard folds down when off the edge to stay out of the way. The old EMA Fortis, Unitronix polish jointers used it. Dave

[Warren Lake]

I dont use a guard and not suggesting that to you, Brians wood sectional would be an improvement for me as less cutter would be exposed. Know of two people who lost fingers who had pork chop guards, one who had been jerked around by a designer and doing a wide thick heavy board was distracted by the events of the day. THe Euro style guard would not work for me. Cutters need to be exposed to be able to place the board on at whatever position I want as i work into the board. If i could position and lock a pork chop where I want it would perform the same as this wood one, you could dial it right in. A swinging guard like the pork chop does nothing at the end of the board as it passes onto the outfeed as its holding the guard completely away to the width of the board, the cutters are fully exposed. Same with the wood one, it just limits the width of exposed cutter when the board is there. the wood one would not project out from the machine into the operator standing position when doing a narrow board than the pork chop. To do a 2" some guards would sort of be in the way where you are standing, they got around that below with the cutout in the guard. Not sure what type of guard Mel uses but clearly he has hand worked a lot of material on a jointer, he understands how the material responds and gets the most from it. Here is nice Bauerle jointer from a past auction at a high quality shop, on the back side of the fence on some jointers the cutters can be exposed depending the fence style, this one has the hinged wood blocks, one of mine came with a home made plexis glass guard on the back of the fence to cover the knives.

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[jack forsberg]

I like The Porkchop for 8" but it be a real nuisance on the 26 inch Wadkin . The obvious advantage of the bridge is full access to the cutter block whist garded not just against the fence with the pork . allows for skewing the work face when cutting Squirrelly wood

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=coz5wpIHchk

[Joe Calhoon]

I have used a Suva for 15 years and a Porkchop for 20 years before that on a SCM. I would have a hard time going back to the Porkchop. I have used the yellow Porkchop that folds down like a tambour and it is better than the standard type for wide jointers.
http://youtu.be/1Wls3oH_NYM

The Panhans safety catalogue has some other options for these.


http://www.panhans.de/pan_en/index.php/safety-technology

[Mike Cutler]

Brian

Thank you very much for that photo series!
I have a 16" jointer that I am going to start the rebuild on, and one of the things I needed was a cutter guard solution.That looks like it.:cool:
One question though;
How do you raise the height?

Again, thank you.

[Erik Loza]

Personally, I prefer the porkchop because that's what I was used to before getting into this industry but that being said, I wish SCM would source out a sturdier plastic porkshop for the Minimax machines. The porkchop they supply on the SCM jointers is much beefier but I don't think it's available for any machine less than 16" width. The thing I don't like about the Euro-style guard is that once your board is one the way out, you're right over the exposed cutterhead. Completely exposed, no protection at all. I'm really surprised that passes EU safety norms but apparently, it does. Also, though this is less frequently an issue, what do you do if you have to joint a really big timber? That Euro-guard is only good for maybe 12/4 or 16/4's height. The arm doesn't raise any higher. If it's a big beam, I guess you have no guard?

Actually, the one situation where I do prefer the Euro-guard is if the machine happens to have the horizontal mortising unit mounted to it. In that case, the pork shop sometimes crashes into the lever arms for the mortiser if you're face-jointing a wide board. Though I'm obligated to ship any Minimax jointer with the porkchop, I can still order the Euro-guard if a customer wants it. Really boils down to personal preference. I can say that statistically, maybe only 10% of my customers opt for the Euro-style guard.

Erik

[Ole Anderson]

The pork chop on my old King Seeley (Sears) is aluminum as is the one on my local mill's 20 incher which gets a lot of daily use.

[mreza Salav]

Personally, I prefer the porkchop because that's what I was used to before getting into this industry but that being said, I wish SCM would source out a sturdier plastic porkshop for the Minimax machines. The porkchop they supply on the SCM jointers is much beefier but I don't think it's available for any machine less than 16" width. The thing I don't like about the Euro-style guard is that once your board is one the way out, you're right over the exposed cutterhead. Completely exposed, no protection at all. I'm really surprised that passes EU safety norms but apparently, it does. Also, though this is less frequently an issue, what do you do if you have to joint a really big timber? That Euro-guard is only good for maybe 12/4 or 16/4's height. The arm doesn't raise any higher. If it's a big beam, I guess you have no guard?

Actually, the one situation where I do prefer the Euro-guard is if the machine happens to have the horizontal mortising unit mounted to it. In that case, the pork shop sometimes crashes into the lever arms for the mortiser if you're face-jointing a wide board. Though I'm obligated to ship any Minimax jointer with the porkchop, I can still order the Euro-guard if a customer wants it. Really boils down to personal preference. I can say that statistically, maybe only 10% of my customers opt for the Euro-style guard.

Erik

Me too, especially that on a J/P if you don't fully pull the guard when lifting the outfeed table you can break it at it's mounting point. I have epoxied that joint area to beef it up a bit.

[John Sanford]

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvakH09gEG4

The only issue is that the non spring loaded Euro guard isn't legal in the USA due to OSHA regulations.

I like the Euro guard much more than the pork chop style..........Regards, Rod.

Not exactly true. A Euro guard IS legal in the USA. It is not, however, legal to use in an occupational setting. At home, OSHA has no power. Manufacturers and importers of the machines, however, can't control where their machines are used, so they only sell them with pork chops in order to avoid any complications with lawyers and bureaucrats.

OSHA isn't going to be kicking down the door to your home shop. Unless someone wants to cast you in the role of a ham sandwich, whereupon all bets are off.

[Erik Loza]

...Manufacturers and importers of the machines, however, can't control where their machines are used, so they only sell them with pork chops in order to avoid any complications with lawyers and bureaucrats...

This ^^^....

I asked an SCM trade manager about this once, since many other companies sell jointers and jointer/planers with the Euro-style guard and his response to me was, "They probably haven't been sued, yet.". There are so many commerical shops, schools, and gov't institutions on the SCM client roster that I feel like liability mitigation (as with many fields) is the deciding factor.

Erik

[Anthony Whitesell]

FWIW. the Grizzly porkchop is metal.

[Mark Wooden]

Not using a guard is a mistake. Period. It's a mistake.
I never cared for the "euro" guards, found them too hard to get around and then the head was exposed when the material passed it.
Best bet for bigger than an 8" jointer is the flexible porkchop IMO. I've worked with them on a Martin 20" and found them easy to work with. I'll working on a version for my 12" jointer soon.




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[Anthony Whitesell]

Though not solving my problem. I will give that one style points, definitely cool.

[Warren Lake]

Mark that would be foolish because its only a matter of time before that arrogance gets humbled out. Mentioned I know of two guys who lost fingers who had guards so much for having a guard. Both are very bright talented and experienced people in their case they would have been better off never having a guard and learning to work that way as they would have had a technique imprinted already that kept them away from the cutters.

If you look at his technique on Joes posted Martin Video you will see he is in front of the cutter, then he is behind the cutters on the outfeed You do that with no guard and you wont be over the knives at anytime. The board itself is always over the cutter except the last part of the pass. I dont find that guy very smooth on the video, he stops and starts. that guard shown is awkward and in his way. Your guard is cool in terms of it has both a cut out and flops down out of the way but its still the same as the pork chop above where two people lost their fingers and they would have on yours as well because the end of the board holds the guard away from the fence knives are fully exposed to the width of the board.

[Jim Becker]

One thing I don't understand is how guys are milling their stock so that they don't joint the edge? If your milling rough stock aren't you doing faces and edges?

This is a good question to ask. When you have a Euro style sliding table saw, once the board is jointed flat and thicknessed, you can put the board on the saw's wagon (sliding table) and rip the edge(s) perfectly straight and perpendicular to the faces. There's no need to do the edges on the jointer and the cut surface with a sharp blade also doesn't have the scallops that you get coming off the jointer cutter head.

One other advantage is that you are not limited by the existing edge of the board...if the best "first edge" is on an angle due to grain, color or defects, it's a piece of cake to create that edge on the slider. I cannot tell you how much I use that capability and as already mentioned, that edge is perfectly perpendicular to the faces.

[Jeff Duncan]

This is a good question to ask. When you have a Euro style sliding table saw, once the board is jointed flat and thicknessed, you can put the board on the saw's wagon (sliding table) and rip the edge(s) perfectly straight and perpendicular to the faces. There's no need to do the edges on the jointer and the cut surface with a sharp blade also doesn't have the scallops that you get coming off the jointer cutter head.

One other advantage is that you are not limited by the existing edge of the board...if the best "first edge" is on an angle due to grain, color or defects, it's a piece of cake to create that edge on the slider. I cannot tell you how much I use that capability and as already mentioned, that edge is perfectly perpendicular to the faces.

I can see that technique making good sense for angled grain, (I don't do it often but when I do I have to use the bandsaw), but seems like facing everything on the jointer and then moving it all to the slider is a lot of extra time no? When I'm jointing it's one or two passes on the face and then the edge and the boards ready to got though the planer....which is right next to the jointer. Having to move the pile to the slider and then I assume clamp each individual board down to rip, and then back to the planer....seems like a lot of extra effort to me? Not saying it can't work mind you since I haven't tried it, just different strokes for different folks I guess;) Of course it may also depend on how much quantity one is doing? A furniture guy may work very differently than a cabinet/millwork guy. Oh and as far as edges go I prefer to glue up jointed boards over sawn boards. I've found over the years I get much better and more reliable seams that way.

One other thing that seems to have become an issue, the pork chop guard leaving the head exposed when at the end of a cut. This to me possibly shows a lack of knowledge or education in how to use a jointer properly. When your jointing a board and you've reached the end, the cutter head should be behind you. There should be no way to have fingers or anything else getting in there. If your using a good stance and walking through the motion with the board your fingers should never have an opportunity to come in contact with the blades unless there is some kind of major kickback with the workpiece. All your attention and pressure is focused on the outfield table and that ensures your away and safe.

good luck,
JeffD

[Joe Calhoon]

Found a couple Utube showing Panhans with a Suva guard and the standard euro bridge guard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCQAf-6Jxy4


http://youtu.be/lTVQ8nNFwXo

I have never used the bridge guard and see that it does leave the cutter exposed. The Suva can cover the cutter in all situations. I should make a video. The Martin one only shows a few ways to use it.

Main thing with jointers is developing awareness as to where your fingers are and keeping good consistent techniques.

[Anthony Whitesell]

In my opinion, the Suva guard is no better or worse than a pork chop. I don't care for the other "fixed position" euro guard. I personally do not see any difference in the safety-ness of the Suva guard versus the pork chop. As you may recall, I am looking to add a feeder to the machine and would like it closer to the cutter head than the pork chop guard allows. The question then becomes, does anyone make a reasonably priced Suva-style spring-closed Euro guard? Obviously I don't consider $1200+ reasonably priced for a guard. I can purchase as replacement parts, the G0490X porkchop guard from Grizzly for about $32 plus shipping.

[Erik Loza]

I've always thought there was a market for stuff like this over here. Some motivated (not me, though: LOL...) person to manufacture and market things like Suva-type guards or other items for Minimax and other Euro machines. The Euro-style jointer guard that we all supply, for example, is made by the same company. It's not like is better then the next. One of my customers just made a flip-away type bracket for the porkchop on his C26 Genius. Basically, just parts from Grainger, IIRC. I asked if he would be interested in marketing it but got the feeling it was more for himself. Anyhow, point being that I think there is demand for stuff like this.

Erik

*not my design, just sharing these photos*

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[lowell holmes]

Uh guys, I didn't read the whole string, but . . . .

Push sticks are used in close proximity to jointer blades as well as saw blades.:confused:

Actually, I have a push block that sits on top of the trailing edge with part of the block dropped down to engage the end.

[jack forsberg]

I've always thought there was a market for stuff like this over here. Some motivated (not me, though: LOL...) person to manufacture and market things like Suva-type guards or other items for Minimax and other Euro machines. The Euro-style jointer guard that we all supply, for example, is made by the same company. It's not like is better then the next. One of my customers just made a flip-away type bracket for the porkchop on his C26 Genius. Basically, just parts from Grainger, IIRC. I asked if he would be interested in marketing it but got the feeling it was more for himself. Anyhow, point being that I think there is demand for stuff like this.

Erik

*not my design, just sharing these photos*

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Already done by surety Erik

[Erik Loza]

Surety?

Erik

[jack forsberg]

Surety?

Erik
Surety is an American patented type bridge guard swings out-of-the-way floats up-and-down moves away from the fence very much like the Swiss made Suva works

[Erik Loza]

See: You learn something new every day.

Erik

[Anthony Whitesell]

Sounds interesting. Any links to a seller and/or videos? I tried googling surety (plus other ww related words) and came up blank.

Update: Ahh. Surty. There's no 'e'. I found a video on youtube. Either he isn't using it right or it doesn't go up and down. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvNPTPQGHtQ skip to about 2:40. But does anyone still make and sell them?

[David Kumm]

Surty were pretty common on old jointers. They could swing totally out of the way so boards wider than the jointer could be run. I think you manually set the distance to table by lifting the bridge part. I never use a jointer without a Grripper or a similar wooden float with a strip on the trailing end so hands are never near the head and always at least some distance from the end of the board. Dave

[eugene thomas]

I have same guard as guy in video on my 16" jointer and I feel lot safe finger wise running board under guard and fingers over guard when face jointing wood.

[jack forsberg]

often it the Back guard that is the mystery for most fitting dated machines with cutter block guards . I made a few bride guards as well as back guards as well to cover the exposed block when the fence is move over.

here is a back guard for the 26" wadkin

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/001.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/001.jpg.html)
http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/002.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/002.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/003.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/003.jpg.html)

here is the bridge i modified for spring loade end.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rm001.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/rm001.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/rm002.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/rm002.jpg.html).

[Chris Padilla]

I think the pork chop guard on my MM FS41 Elite (16" J/P) is still in the original packaging high up on sawdust laden garage cabinet top. :) I ordered the Euro pretty quickly but then found that got in the way too much so it joined the pork chop guard and now I have nothing. I use push blocks a lot now. The j/p came with a metal guard for behind the fence but if you aren't paying attention when you raise the table for planer action, you'll bend it and break out the screw holes. Guess what? That metal guard is also keeping the pork chop and euro guards company. :D I don't think these guard solutions are well-tested from some of these companies--not much money is put into their trials and designs.

I had not seen the wood block guard solution. I think that one could work out. Don't we all have off-cuts about that size? Thanks for the pics and posts, Brian and Warren!

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Chris, perhaps the Euro guard that snaps into a shorter length (it's hinged in 2 spots)would be handy?

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

I can see that technique making good sense for angled grain, (I don't do it often but when I do I have to use the bandsaw), but seems like facing everything on the jointer and then moving it all to the slider is a lot of extra time no?
Actually, no...it's one less step. Remember, you still need to rip to width anyway and since you tend to get a cleaner, "glue ready" rip off a slider more easily than with a traditional, North American table saw, you completely skip the edge jointing step.

I'll also point out that the quality of my work has improved because whatever minor increases in time requirements to process this way have made the "pace" more controlled...and that reduces mistakes. I work in batches, too.

It's just a different way to work and what is great for me may not be great for others. But I'm enjoying "not" having to edge joint, especially because I tend to work with wide boards and balancing those along a 6" tall jointer fence is well, not always fun. :)

Board like this 13.5" wide cherry that went into my recent buffet project:

First pass on flattened and thicknessed board to get a straight edge that's perpendicular to the faces. The material is on the wagon and is easily clamped down to get zero variations on the edge.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/a-j-adopt/Woodworking/Furniture/Buffet-Hutch/IMG_7164_zpsydhoavun.jpg

Second pass to get the second edge parallel and also perpendicular to the face. Again, the board can be clamped down so it moves through the cut without variation.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/a-j-adopt/Woodworking/Furniture/Buffet-Hutch/IMG_7165_zpsr8c4nbfj.jpg

And here's an example of where the "best" edge was not parallel to how the tree was cut...and with one pass, I have both the line I want as well as a "jointed", glue-ready edge. However, it's important to understand that the board MUST be flat for this technique to work to maximum benefit.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v646/a-j-adopt/Woodworking/Furniture/Buffet-Hutch/IMG_6779_zpssobfjjyy.jpg

[Joe Calhoon]

Here are some pictures from German shops showing vintage jointer guards including the folding wood type.These shops usually have the latest in machinery but also a few nice vintage machines because they have been in business for so long.


The shop with the Aldinger combo machine also had a nice 400mm cast iron Frommia band saw. The owner said he used the Aldinger the first 30 years he was in business. You can see where a side head was on the fence, now removed. A lot of the European shops used these to get a surface and edge in one pass before the advent of the S4S machines for small shops.


I asked if I could turn the machine on. The shop guys said we would be sorry. They were right, it was unbelievably loud. Not a square head machine but a lot of knife projection.

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[Jeff Duncan]

Jim, thanks for the pictorial! Always interesting to see how other guys work, and that's certainly a different approach, but seems like it makes sense to the way you work.

That's some nice cherry too! But I guess your in the right neighborhood for it:D

good luck,
JeffD

[Jim Becker]

Yea, this is "cherry country" in a sense. That particular board has been waiting for a project for, oh...about 12 years. :) And yes, we all figure out ways for work flow that work best for us.

[Joe Calhoon]

We had a poor designed shop made parallel fence for our slider that was hard to set so we ended up not using it much. We recently added a Airtight fence and enjoying that a lot. Yesterday we were edge gluing some 2 1/4 X 13" or so reclaimed fir planks for counters in a timber frame house. (wish I was working that Cherry Jim has) Most of these are 2 board glue ups and they want to leave the rough edges on the sides. This worked slick we were able to hit our target width and keep the rough edges. This also works well for doing long miters on solid or sheet goods. And a safe way to do hands free rips of any kind. Safer than a Sawstop as your hands are never close to the blade. We don't need or use a conventional table saw in our shop.

In our shop most glue ups are off the jointer or S4S machine but the slider is a good alternative for small shops.

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[peter gagliardi]

The slider mounted parallel fence didn't strike me as immediately useful, i admit. But after some study, and figuring out even just the body mechanics of it, i can see huge advantages over the alternative. My new T75 is a hard reach ripping conventionally. The older T75 is more user friendly, but still less than ideal. I might look harder into this.
How does the scale work Joe? Is it a zero out against the blade, and the numbers run backwards and are read at the clamp block shoulder?

[David Kumm]

Mac at Airtightclamps.com makes a parallel fence that flips down out of the way. Lambtoolworks makes a more traditional take off when you don't need it one. Dave

[Joe Calhoon]

The slider mounted parallel fence didn't strike me as immediately useful, i admit. But after some study, and figuring out even just the body mechanics of it, i can see huge advantages over the alternative. My new T75 is a hard reach ripping conventionally. The older T75 is more user friendly, but still less than ideal. I might look harder into this.
How does the scale work Joe? Is it a zero out against the blade, and the numbers run backwards and are read at the clamp block shoulder?

Peter,
I will send some pictures from home tonight. Since Mac's Airtight stop folds down it requires 2 stop rods, one for narrow and one for wide. It is simple to change and his are repeatable if you have to flip down between cuts.
I looked at the Martin one at Holz Handwerk. It is nice, the most expensive one of course but requires a dedicated panel support. More expense.
Brian Lambs is also nice for a dedicated one.

[Jim Becker]

I'm considering getting the LambToolWorks parallel guide to replace my shop-made one at some point. The locking screw on the one I made digs into things in such a way that over time, it's made it hard to adjust it perfectly accurate without growing a third hand. A metal unit will be more durable...and, of course, a LOT more costly. Sheesh... :o

[Joe Calhoon]

The slider mounted parallel fence didn't strike me as immediately useful, i admit. But after some study, and figuring out even just the body mechanics of it, i can see huge advantages over the alternative. My new T75 is a hard reach ripping conventionally. The older T75 is more user friendly, but still less than ideal. I might look harder into this.
How does the scale work Joe? Is it a zero out against the blade, and the numbers run backwards and are read at the clamp block shoulder?

Peter,
Because it folds down the scales are a little confusing at first glance. Here is the folded down position.

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The long bar with scale on top is used for cutting widths from where the scale starts to the blade. Notice the block is positioned against the bottom stop that is close to the slider table. This calibrates the top scale and is adjustable for blade thickness etc.

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For wider widths a short bar is inserted with a fixed stop on the end and you now read the bottom scale. You can also use the longer bar for this by putting the fix stop on it. If making repeat cuts where you might flip the unit up and down the bottom fixed stop can slide over and lock anywhere on the bottom bar to keep position.

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[peter gagliardi]

Thanks for those Joe. It appears that your outrigger/support is fabbed of aluminum, and a fairly nice job. I wonder if the current offering in steel is the same dimensionally, and would support direct mounting as you show. As you know, the unit i got for my T74 was poorly executed in my opinion. I am hesitant to explore that route again.

[James Zhu]

Peter,
Because it folds down the scales are a little confusing at first glance. Here is the folded down position.

336113

The long bar with scale on top is used for cutting widths from where the scale starts to the blade. Notice the block is positioned against the bottom stop that is close to the slider table. This calibrates the top scale and is adjustable for blade thickness etc.

336114

For wider widths a short bar is inserted with a fixed stop on the end and you now read the bottom scale. You can also use the longer bar for this by putting the fix stop on it. If making repeat cuts where you might flip the unit up and down the bottom fixed stop can slide over and lock anywhere on the bottom bar to keep position.

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brilliant design, does not get in the way when not in use, probably the best parallel fence on the market. It would be fantastic if it had a digital readout.

[mac campshure]

My old Porters have a porkchop guard that is pretty well designed but my favorite ( don't have a picture ) is a porkchop made from wooden boards segmented like a rolltop desk. The guard folds down when off the edge to stay out of the way. The old EMA Fortis, Unitronix polish jointers used it. Dave

Hi Dave ,
this is on my Polish 410 jointer.
mac,,,336138336139336140

[Joe Calhoon]

Thanks for those Joe. It appears that your outrigger/support is fabbed of aluminum, and a fairly nice job. I wonder if the current offering in steel is the same dimensionally, and would support direct mounting as you show. As you know, the unit i got for my T74 was poorly executed in my opinion. I am hesitant to explore that route again.

Peter,
Mine is steel about 4 or 5mm thick, heavier where it attaches. Not pretty but functions well. It adjusts for tightness and flatness with the table. I don't know what Martin is doing with these now.
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[Erik Loza]

Ouf of curiosity, I went to the parts portal for one of the Asian mfrs. who brings in their J/P's with the Euro-style guard, thinking that perhaps I could find a source that was more competitive in price. Surprisingly, it was about the same price as it is from any of the Euro machinery vendors. Maybe the Asians are buying the Italian-made guard for their machines. That would be funny.

Anyhow, I don' have anything to add except to say that I feel there is definitely a market for stuff like this here in the states. We just need an ambitious soul.

Erik

[Anthony Whitesell]

I just finished adding the power feeder to the Grizzly G0490. Now you can see why I'm interested in the spring-loaded suva-style guard.


http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w72/adwsystemsadwsystems/P4270446_zps4p5undyp.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/adwsystemsadwsystems/media/P4270446_zps4p5undyp.jpg.html)

[William Burnett]

Well -- I went to dredge this up and had an extremely long and well thought out (at least I thought so) response, but the server dumped it when I tried to post.

So in brief: I think this entire discussion is interesting but most (all?) of you got caught up in the "exposed cutter" during normal operation discussion and the personal preference debate. Accidents in that context are 100% operator error and can be avoided, no different than (not) sticking your finger in a light socket...

We can go back and forth all day regarding what is enough "idiot" protection and if it is the job of a guard to protect you from dragging your fingers through the cutter or laying your hand on it, etc. The two styles clearly have a difference in some of those aspects depending on the operation being performed, etc.

The real question (to me) is protection during violent kickback where the board disappears and the hand is drawn into the cutter. The bridge (if it is built well) offers infinitely more protection in this scenario. There is simply no reasonable spring tension on a pork chop to close the gap faster than then hand moves toward the cutter, push block or not. You will note that even a push block will not save you, as it is likely to be ejected from your hand right after the board is ejected, and before the pork chop closes.

Sure, on thick stock there is a chance that a hand could get drawn back in and under a bridge, but that can be somewhat easily engineered of the equation. A properly designed (they can be GREATLY improved upon) bridge would offer even more protection both in normal and kickback scenarios. I will save my design thoughts on this for another day, but here are a few hints:

Looking at the "suvamatic" guard: The travel motion for edge jointing should have an easily adjustable (spring loaded index pin?) limit stop to prevent violent kickback from further displacing the guard. Likewise, the vertical motion should have the same. Not as convenient, but far safer than the just the spring. That same feature set could be used to fully lock the guard to one range of motion, (again to prevent guard displacement during violent kickback)... plenty of ways to improve upon this style of guard with minimal cost or loss of ergonomics.

Those of you "a guard-less" jointer makes you "more aware" and "safer" proponents... you're whistling past the graveyard. There is NO WAY that you have the speed or strength to prevent injury during a violent kickback, regardless of your technique or experience. Your "safety" is in your own mind and the odds are overwhelmingly against you keeping your fingers, regardless of how long you have been LUCKY.

Be safe :)

[Brian Deakin]

please see



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsjM-FcBVp4


regards Brian

[William Burnett]

Brian: I am not sure what relevance that has to the discussion, unless it is to point out the bridge style guard? I think in that context, the style of bridge is much less desirable than the suvamatic style due to its static nature, both in normal operations and during a kickback event.

Out of scope, but in context to the machine itself... To me it looks like a modern shopsmith, with many of the same pros and cons. One could argue that it takes up more space than its mobile base mounted individual machine counterparts. That is, given that footprint, lack of mobility and need for workspace around it. Does it do each task as well as or better than each machine, etc...

[Warren Lake]

never had a jointer kick back let alone a violent one and have lots of time on them. Rear table is a chip limiter its not like a big wing cutter hanging out 1 1/2" say on a shaper where material gets sucked in. I could see issues with a Knot but still have never had them.

[William Burnett]

Warren,

I would have honestly thought the same thing, that is until I did some research while refurbing a craigslist delta knock-off. From what I gather, there are a fair number of stupid injuries (running a trailing finger through the cutter as it overhangs the back of a board) but there are plenty of horror story injuries that result from violent kickback causing the board to be ejected whilst using gravity, momentum and force to guide the fingers into the cutter.


It appears that most of these terrible accidents happen during facing and not edge jointing. Even with a very thin pass, there is significant surface area in contact with the cutter. That combined with the high cutter speed can produce a lot of force.

I don't think any particular guard schema should be mandatory (esp for home use) but do feel that there are logical improvements that can be made to what is available now. Is there a market for it? I have no idea.

I used to be the "guards are stupid" guy. Over the years have become very fond of my appendages and am always looking for safer ways to operate dangerous equipment. I just picked up a used G1023 saw for a song, but am tempted to sell it and invest in a model with a true riving knife or... I cringe to say it, a SawStop. (I am appalled that they used lawsuits to attempt to get laws passed to mandate their technology be added to all new saws when the manufacturers opted not to license it due to cost and other concerns).

[jack forsberg]

never had a jointer kick back let alone a violent one and have lots of time on them. Rear table is a chip limiter its not like a big wing cutter hanging out 1 1/2" say on a shaper where material gets sucked in. I could see issues with a Knot but still have never had them.
I think for milling select and better grades common to furniture making it's mostly true for kick back Warren , But badly warped cupped pieces can kick back because of lack of support near the head. very cupped wood milled cupped down(the common training in NA) can and does dive into the cutter block and hit the lip of the rear table making the operator slip or lose hand position. . there are also the less common operations like tapering and rabbet cuts that take large (1/2" 3/4" deep) that exposes larger section of the cutter block that can and do kick for the untrained . Some people have no idea what knife projection to use in some cases and i have seen knifes way to far out of the head to be safe and are way more aggressive and less chip limiting than when set to the proper 1/16" projection of the block. Excessive project of knifes is a major cause of kick back. I will add that the bridge is the only guard that is left in place for a rabbit cut not true of the pork chop.


http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll29/oldtool1/taper_zpszh6j5ity.jpg (http://s284.photobucket.com/user/oldtool1/media/taper_zpszh6j5ity.jpg.html)

Often what the problem here in NA is they have on idea how to use the bridge guard safely or the other guards that are available for other operations.

look here for safe work practices

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf

[Warren Lake]

thanks get all that and it makes sense.

my knives are .050 out every time, in honing they drop down a bit. I did testing when I started on my machine and a few different projections. Too high was noise and almost feel the knives pounding not sure how to describe it but that number is right for my machines. I dont get kickbacks I joint convex side down, there is nothing to fall in to the cutter. I dont take huge passes and material thickness nowadays is a disappointment compared to when 4/4 was 1 3/16 or so thick. i like to joint and plane then let it sit on its side a few days then re machine, some percent always moves

William ive never been a guards are stupid thing, same time I know people missing fingers that had guards. I was in shops that didnt have guards a long time ago different time than now a days.

[William Burnett]

William ive never been a guards are stupid thing, same time I know people missing fingers that had guards. I was in shops that didnt have guards a long time ago different time than now a days.

I too know folks who have been injured with guards in place. I am sure in some cases it was still operator error that could have easily been avoided and in other cases a flaw or failure of the guard.

I was never a safety glasses guy, and still struggle to remember them when using power tools. About 20 year I was working in a coal mine that required them portal-to-portal with strict enforcement. I picked up a very heavy piece of MUDY expanded steel guarding with a 14" screwdriver in my left hand. As I pulled the guarding out of the mud to install it back on the machine, it slipped out of my hand. My arm shot upward and the screwdriver took a deep gouge out of the glasses, glanced off of them, cut my forehead and sent my hard hat flying backward. The glasses saved not only my eye, but I am guessing they prevent the screwdriver from entering my eye and then brain....

That story has no real relevance to this actual topic other than to illustrate that guards have a purpose, be they machinery guards or personal protective equipment. I suppose it also illustrates that we all make stupid mistakes, often times without ever fathoming what can go wrong. Clearly, one should not perform tasks while holding dangerous objects that are not needed for the task...

To that point (not fathoming what can actually go wrong), I more then ever in favor of well designed guards. At least they give you a better chance when the SHTF. Likewise, I find myself avoiding dangerous equipment unless I know that somebody else is home in case something bad were to happen.