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View Full Version : Maybe a better scraper burnisher?



Tony Zaffuto
04-10-2016, 9:57 AM
Placed an order at Highland last week, and like most here, can never order a single item. While looking rough their catalog, saw and added to the order a Kunz brand triangular scraper burnisher. Tried it a bit ago, and the flat part was very easy to turn a burr with. I think the triangular edge will be the ticket for curved scrapers. Price was about $18, and maybe worth a peek the next time you got a tool jones.

Frederick Skelly
04-10-2016, 10:30 AM
Thanks for the tip Tony. I'll put one on my list for the next order I place with Highland.
Fred

george wilson
04-10-2016, 10:47 AM
lucky that anything made by KUNZ worked!

I think DEM DEUTSCH VOLK should rise up and burn the factory down for causing a national embarrassment!!:)

Derek Cohen
04-10-2016, 10:54 AM
Placed an order at Highland last week, and like most here, can never order a single item. While looking rough their catalog, saw and added to the order a Kunz brand triangular scraper burnisher. Tried it a bit ago, and the flat part was very easy to turn a burr with. I think the triangular edge will be the ticket for curved scrapers. Price was about $18, and maybe worth a peek the next time you got a tool jones.

Tony, I still use the length of polished carbide you sent me years ago.

Chris Schwarz posted about a sharpener he has been using for a scraper. I have it on my wish list at Lee Valley. Has anyone used this ..

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Sharpening/09A0330i2.jpg

Link: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072&p=66738

Regards from Perth

Derek

Mike Brady
04-10-2016, 11:09 AM
Not the one in the photo, but I tried using the carbide tip of a Benchcrafted scraper, which is the same thing in a different configuration. It does take fine shavings that look like wire edges, but that defeats the jointing benefit of using a flat file or diamond stone. I just felt it was not controllable, so that was the end of my inquiry. Other's results may vary. As with any sharpening technique, I believe it is more important to perfect one method as opposed to dabbling in many others. I'm amazed at how much sharpening equipment forum posters admit to owning and abandoning.

Tony Zaffuto
04-10-2016, 11:18 AM
Tony, I still use the length of polished carbide you sent me years ago.

Chris Schwarz posted about a sharpener he has been using for a scraper. I have it on my wish list at Lee Valley. Has anyone used this ..

http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/Woodworking/Sharpening/09A0330i2.jpg

Link: http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072&p=66738

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

Carbide is still the best, but the flats on this product are an advantage, plus you would not be able to put the pointed edge on carbide. The commercial carbide scrapers I've seen also all lack the degree of surface polish needed.

When I sent out all that carbide, I sent one to Swartz, but I never heard any comments back. David Charlesworth pinged me, and I sent him a number of pieces for his class to use. David did comment how well it worked.

But, Derek, like you, I like experimenting to find something a bit better, namely the Stewie-Mac scraper, then the CBN wheel (thanks again for that suggestion!). Kunz products are pretty low on the quality list, but the shape of this burnisher is what attracted me. Tomorrow, I shall take it to my QC lab, and have the hardness tested.

T.

Joachim Schmidt
04-10-2016, 12:08 PM
lucky that anything made by KUNZ worked!

I think DEM DEUTSCH VOLK should rise up and burn the factory down for causing a national embarrassment!!:)

Hello George,

he, he. A little radical proposal. DAS DEUTSCHE VOLK don't care for Kunz. We refuse their products, instead we send them abroad. We prefer the originals. Our own woodies or the originals from USA or Canada.

You will hardly find the bigger planes in professional or hobbyist workshops here in Germany. The litle ones, like the palm are common. But fettling these little planes to work properly is not so difficult.

We don't eat ourselfes each meal we prepare. ;-)

Joachim Schmidt

Tony Zaffuto
04-10-2016, 12:49 PM
A blind pig finds an acorn every once in a while.

Tony Zaffuto
04-10-2016, 3:24 PM
Besides the Kunz burnisher, I will also test a Bahco and a no-name card scraper for hardness. Results to be posted over the next few days. Tester is a new Rockwell, calibrated every six months by outside independent source.

Mel Fulks
04-10-2016, 4:00 PM
Some of the burnishers sold as adjustable units use a 1/4" diameter carbide rod which seems to be same thing as laminate trim bit. I gave an old bit to D Weaver and he liked the idea but thought they might be improved by diamond polish. I use one glued into the center of length of wood with Goop.

george wilson
04-10-2016, 4:06 PM
Joachim: Why does it say "Dem Deutsch Volk" on the bombed out Reichstag building,as seen in old films in 1945? I agree that DEM sounds strange,but that is what it says.

But,as they say in Pennsylvania,do you "Walk the street down" or "make out the light?"

Tony Zaffuto
04-10-2016, 4:07 PM
Some of the burnishers sold as adjustable units use a 1/4" diameter carbide rod which seems to be same thing as laminate trim bit. I gave an old bit to D Weaver and he liked the idea but thought they might be improved by diamond polish. I use one glued into the center of length of wood with Goop.

The carbide I gave away (old tools list) were discarded pins from my manufacturing plant. Far higher grade and polish (mirror, with no evidence of scratch patterns). Problem is, this grade of carbide would be very, very expensive to have made for woodworking.

Joachim Schmidt
04-10-2016, 4:42 PM
Joachim: Why does it say "Dem Deutsch Volk" on the bombed out Reichstag building,as seen in old films in 1945? I agree that DEM sounds strange,but that is what it says.

But,as they say in Pennsylvania,do you "Walk the street down" or "make out the light?"


George,

"Dem Deutschen Volk" means translated "for the german people" or more in the figurative sense "donated to the german people". The "Reichstag" was the parliament after WW1.

I cannot see that Kunz is donated to us.

Kunz is a copyist of planes, which were never in wide use in our country. Like other copyists they lack the experienced users in their country which can give feedback on their products. So it remains to make the cheaper product. Perhaps this is the reason, why they could not go the way, LN went. (Improving the product you are copying.)

Their new product line is way better, but cannot meet the standards LN and LV have set. Although you can find some interesting details in this planes. But there remain some annoying details which let me buying LN and LV.

Dave Anderson NH
04-10-2016, 5:14 PM
For burnishers I use LV I bought many years ago and a homemade one. The one I made uses the solid carbide round nozzle from a waterjet cutting machine set into a turned walnut handle. I works fine and the price was right $.00.

Patrick Chase
04-10-2016, 5:54 PM
A lot of this discussion strikes me as overkill (and yes, I'm aware of the irony of that statement). Burnishers need to have three properties:

1. They need to be a fair bit harder than the material being burnished. Scrapers range up to HRC 50 or so (for both LV and Bahco-Sandvik), so this is a pretty low bar.

2. They need to be smooth. I'm guessing that everybody here knows how to smooth and polish a piece of metal.

3. They need to be shaped so that they can access the edge of whatever you're trying to burnish.

That's it. Really!

My "triangular" burnisher is an old taper file with the corners ground smooth. It gets the job done as well as anything else.

george wilson
04-10-2016, 6:43 PM
Thank you for the explanation,Joachim. I used to have a pretty fair facility for remembering languages(except French!). But,now that I'm old,I just can't keep things like languages in my head like I used to.

Tony Zaffuto
04-11-2016, 12:49 PM
Hardness, using six month old computerized Rockwell hardness tester, calibrated by outside source within the past month:

Kunz burnisher, 50.1 HRc (burnisher tested on flat surface, unable to test on triangular edge)
Bahco card scraper, 45.6 HRc
No-name card scraper, 42.6 HRc

Rob Luter
04-11-2016, 9:05 PM
I use a couple antique Buck Brothers Burnishers (aka Ticketers) I found while on rust hunts. I have a couple sizes, perhaps medium and large? I've never been able to find out much about them beyond what I gleaned from this Chris Schwarz article (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/it-looks-more-like-a-pigsticker-than-a-burnisher):



http://www.popularwoodworking.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/buckburnisher.jpg

They work great.

george wilson
04-11-2016, 9:29 PM
I have a burnisher like the Buck just above. Been using it for years.

Those hardness figures seem pretty low,Tony. A card scraper made from a piece of 1095 usually is 52 RC. At least good 1095,USA made. I don't know about some of the Indian steel now being sold.

Tony Zaffuto
04-11-2016, 10:02 PM
I have a burnisher like the Buck just above. Been using it for years.

Those hardness figures seem pretty low,Tony. A card scraper made from a piece of 1095 usually is 52 RC. At least good 1095,USA made. I don't know about some of the Indian steel now being sold.

I would typically agree, especially if this was the discussion that was on SMC several years back, with the goomer that picked up some weird, handheld hardness tester, or if I performed the tests. Hardness tests also have a wide plus/minus range. To be sure, I may have my tech perform the tests again, but after she performs a test on a test block.

Patrick Chase
04-11-2016, 10:04 PM
Hardness, using six month old computerized Rockwell hardness tester, calibrated by outside source within the past month:

Kunz burnisher, 50.1 HRc (burnisher tested on flat surface, unable to test on triangular edge)
Bahco card scraper, 45.6 HRc
No-name card scraper, 42.6 HRc

I agree with George, the value for the Bahco scraper is obviously off. Many folks have measured those, and they typically come in around Rc50.

I would also be surprised if anybody (even Kunz) sells an Rc50 burnisher, as that's far too soft.

Maybe time to get the digital tester tested.

Mel Fulks
04-11-2016, 10:25 PM
Don't know the numbers,but the tapered round burnishers made by Stanley are, or were too soft. The one I bought at least 25 years ago is way too soft. Unuseable for intended purpose.

Tony Zaffuto
04-12-2016, 9:36 AM
Just took the identical card scrapers & Kunz burnisher to my QC lab. This time, I walked through every step of the hardness checking procedure: first, verifying proper diamond penetrator for "C" scale, next having the tech (different girl this time) use a test block (wasn't done yesterday), finally, checking the items. Results:

Kunz burnisher, 49.2 HRc
Bahco scraper, 46,2, HRc
no name scraper, 43

Oh, I forgot to mention the test block, traceable back to NIST, had a test range of 60 to 62, HRc. It tested at 61.3 HRc. I stand by posting of yesterday, and should anyone, with access to a properly maintained QC lab, with outside calibration, traceable to NIST, wish to double check my results, I will gladly ship these items to you.

george wilson
04-12-2016, 10:02 AM
I don't have a hardness tester at home. Don't know what to say about your figures.

My old oval burnisher cannot be scratched with a new,fine tooth file. It never gets scratched,or starts to shed metal when burnishing scrapers made from 52 RC 1095 saw steel. So,I know it is harder than the saw steel.

If your burnishers work and don't get scratched by what you're burnishing,just use them and be happy!

Tony Zaffuto
04-12-2016, 10:21 AM
I don't have a hardness tester at home. Don't know what to say about your figures.

My old oval burnisher cannot be scratched with a new,fine tooth file. It never gets scratched,or starts to shed metal when burnishing scrapers made from 52 RC 1095 saw steel. So,I know it is harder than the saw steel.

If your burnishers work and don't get scratched by what you're burnishing,just use them and be happy!

George,

My typical burnisher is a piece of highly polished carbide. I bought the Kunz for putting a hook on a curved scraper. In all fairness, I cannot test hardness on the triangular edge of the burnisher and that position may show a higher value. I may have to locate a sacrificial saw to cut a piece out to test! First burnisher I had was a round Crown, that readily scratched.

T.Z.

george wilson
04-12-2016, 6:28 PM
I VERY SERIOUSLY DOUBT that the triangular edge of your burnisher would be any different in hardness from the rest of it. Selective hardening would be exceedingly difficult.

Tony Zaffuto
04-12-2016, 7:23 PM
I VERY SERIOUSLY DOUBT that the triangular edge of your burnisher would be any different in hardness from the rest of it. Selective hardening would be exceedingly difficult.

Can't answer that George as far as this burnisher goes, except that in my industry, selective hardening is done, although, the price of the Kunz unit would cost at least double what it sold at.

Patrick Chase
04-12-2016, 7:29 PM
Can't answer that George as far as this burnisher goes, except that in my industry, selective hardening is done, although, the price of the Kunz unit would cost at least double what it sold at.

It would be pretty difficult (not impossible, but involved and costly) to selectively harden the corners of a piece with such a small cross-section and such low surface-to-volume ratio. The amount of heat flow required to create the necessary temperature gradients would be "impressive".

In order to test a face of that burnisher you had to somehow fixture the opposite corner, right? Is it possible that you ended up very accurately measuring the compliance of the fixture instead of the hardness of the face? The differential-depth measurement in Rockwell testing should cancel that out, but I seem to recall cases where it has been a factor. It's been too long though.

Tony Zaffuto
04-12-2016, 7:42 PM
Patrick,

I own a powder metal parts manufacturing, with more than 70% of our output going into new cars. I may not know how to operate a hardness tester (it was fixtured correctly), but my QC techs do, as does my QC mgr., as does my Director of Quality. We also routinely outsource numerous parts for secondary heat treating beyond our normal sintering process.

As previously posted, the only thing done diferently this morning was use a test block to verify accuracy of the hardness tester. I posted what I found.

Wade Holloway
04-12-2016, 7:48 PM
Tony do you still get any of those carbide pin? Would love to get one if you do. Thanks and just let me know if you do. Have a great day.

Tony Zaffuto
04-12-2016, 8:51 PM
Tony do you still get any of those carbide pin? Would love to get one if you do. Thanks and just let me know if you do. Have a great day.

From time to time I do. I'll keep you in mind Wade.