Dovetail help

[Brent Cutshall]

As I have previously stated, I stink at dovetails. Can somebody maybe give me some tips on how to cut and clean dovetails please. I've always wanted to learn how to make them and the recent purchase of a dovetail saw that I can't find out who the maker was,(so aggravating), has brought the subject to hand. Someone please stop me afore I roon more boards!

[Gene Davis]

Done with a hacksaw and chisel. Pine. Guy makes it look easy, but his muscle memory drives those tools exactly right. Good marking is half the battle.

Buy a 1x6 clear pine board and start practicing. Take an 8' length and cut it into 4 x 24 inchers, make a four-side box, then cut off the tails and pins, do it again, do it again, do it again and again until you are down to a little box. By then, you will have taught yourself a whole lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l4uB9M4v5o

[Patrick Chase]

Done with a hacksaw and chisel. Pine. Guy makes it look easy, but his muscle memory drives those tools exactly right. Good marking is half the battle.

Guy makes it look sssllllooooowwwwww, even with the time lapses and sped-up video. I'd give up on dovetails if they took me that long, though admittedly many people are in it "for the voyage rather than the destination". Whatever floats your boat.

With a decent saw it should take ~10 strokes to cut down to the baseline, even in moderately dense hardwoods like Maple. Bulk removal with a fretsaw or coping saw followed by paring to the baseline is a lot faster than chiseling like that (though to be fair there are also much faster ways to chop the waste out with a chisel, for example Paul Sellars' approach).

[Derek Cohen]

As I have previously stated, I stink at dovetails. Can somebody maybe give me some tips on how to cut and clean dovetails please. I've always wanted to learn how to make them and the recent purchase of a dovetail saw that I can't find out who the maker was,(so aggravating), has brought the subject to hand. Someone please stop me afore I roon more boards!

Hi Brent

We all stank when we started out. My first dovetails were immediately burned. With practice it becomes easier as hand memory sinks in.

I have a several pictorials on my website. The two most recent are these ...

Through dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThroughDovetails3.html

Half blind dovetails: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

There are more on this Index page. Just scroll down: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/index.html


Incidentally, is that new dovetail saw of yours sharp? A dull saw is a pig.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Brent,

It is difficult to help without knowing what problems you are having.

As Derek mentions a dull saw can be a big part of the problem.

Sawing square and to the line, not through the line are also important parts of making good dovetails.

Making a lot of dovetails and pinpointing the mistakes on each and then working to correct your work to eliminate the mistakes is a challenge. My dovetails stunk for a long time before I worked on getting better. Every detail comes into play.

Here is a project where my dovetail cutting included some of the details of getting them to fit:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?227535-Building-Potting-Benches

Most of my dovetails are cut tails first, but it really doesn't matter if one prefers pins first.

Whichever is cut first, make sure it is as square and proper as can be with adjustments through paring, filing or what ever it takes. Then do nothing to alter that part of the joint and make the second piece match that. Maybe when practicing one could keep the same first half of the joint until it is easy to match it. Then start making pairs to get the practice and build the muscle memory. Not sure if that is a good idea or not. It just popped in to my tired brain.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

From a novice perspective, the key for me is patience. I have about 30 dovetails under my belt, not counting the practice ones from every piece of scrap I had. None are perfect. Some are pretty darn close. It may take me 30 minutes per. For what it's worth, I can offer a few of my learnings.

Overcutting the base line: go really slow and check the backside.

Cut square across the end grain: check the line on the backside to be sure you're lined up.

Chopping out waste: I don't have the skill to cut to the baseline with a coping saw. I leave at least 1/4" and pare with a chisel. I spend a ridiculous amount of time making sure it's flat across the bottom. Paul Sellers and the Lie Nielson video on chisels showing dovetail work is what I've been doing.

Alignment and marking: I think this was a big issue for me. I was just holding it in place and pretty sure there was some movement when marking and not perfectly square to the sides. Take the time to align/square the pin board to the tail board and clamp it. Use a good marking knife. I still highlight the line with a mechanical pencil...

Trial fit: This is a challenge for me; when it doesn't fit, identifying which one(s) and where is the problem. When it doesn't fit, every tail and pin side and "bottom" gets checked for square. A lot of trial. As Jim said above, I use anything I can think of; chisels, files, sandpaper, whatever. At this point, my ugliest dovetails are from thinking I found the problem, paring a bit, and finding out it wasn't the problem...

Don't force it: if the fit seems too tight, fix it. I have more than a few split end pins.

Go through Derek's site, and take a look at Prashun's examples (both use blue tape...haven't tried that yet, but makes a lot of sense).

But I think the biggest learning was to slow down. Too many videos on YouTube showing 3 minute dovetails. And when things go a bit south...give it a break for awhile.

Hope this helps a little.

[Brent Cutshall]

Thanks Derek, and no it's not sharp yet, but it soon shall be. I can't stand owning and using a dull saw. Jim, as far as problems, when I cut them they were straight on the walls but the bottom of the tails' gullet was out of line. Cleaning the space between the pins is fairly easy but the tails are my problem. I can cut straight line with a bent,dull saw but I was needing advice on cleaning the tails. Thanks all.

[Jim Koepke]

I was needing advice on cleaning the tails.

For cleaning the bottom between the tails a skew chisel is helpful.

One also has to remember that the bevel on the chisel will tend to move the chisel toward the back on heavier cuts. This is why chopping or paring out the waste always starts away from the base line.

Some people are able to adjust their chopping away from the base line so the inward movement caused by the bevel brings them right to the base line. Years of practice makes it look easy.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Chopping out waste: I don't have the skill to cut to the baseline with a coping saw. I leave at least 1/4" and pare with a chisel. I spend a ridiculous amount of time making sure it's flat across the bottom. Paul Sellers and the Lie Nielson video on chisels showing dovetail work is what I've been doing.

I use a fretsaw and aim for about 1/32"-1/16" above the baseline, then pare the rest.

Flattening the bottoms is a bit of a "hot" topic. A couple things to consider:

1. The resulting glue joint is long grain to end grain, so getting the bottom flat doesn't buy you much joint integrity. As with the box joint, the strength of the dovetail comes from the long grain to long grain interfaces between the sides of the tails/pins.

2. If you're building a dovetailed box and cutting it open, then the socket bottoms are cosmetic where they intersect the cut line. You have to get them flat there (I still vividly remember the first time I did a DTed box and learned that lesson the hard way).

EDIT: It's probably obvious from my remarks, but I undercut the bottoms a *tiny* bit in the center unless the resulting joint is cosmetic as in a box.

[Jim Koepke]

I use a fretsaw and aim for about 1/32"-1/16" above the baseline, then pare the rest.

This is another one of those tasks that gets easier to control the more it is done.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

For cleaning the bottom between the tails a skew chisel is helpful.

This is particularly true in a half-blind or double-lap dovetail.

Ian Kirby's dovetailing book (http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Dovetail-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678) (recommended) suggests creating dedicated skew chisels for dovetailing, with the skew angle matched to the dovetail angle. That's what I did, and IMO it works really well. Most off-the-shelf "skew chisels" have ~30 deg tip angles, which is much more than you need for dovetails.

[Simon MacGowen]

As I have previously stated, I stink at dovetails. Can somebody maybe give me some tips on how to cut and clean dovetails please. I've always wanted to learn how to make them and the recent purchase of a dovetail saw that I can't find out who the maker was,(so aggravating), has brought the subject to hand. Someone please stop me afore I roon more boards!

If you can, take a class; no other means -- articles, books or DVDs -- are better than that in terms of effectiveness. I have seen many many students -- with zero dovetail experience or little sawing skills -- making acceptable to very good (through) dovetails by the end of a one-day course. If you develop good sawing skills, you're half-way there. So focus on your sawing skills, which again are best taught by a skilled teacher. Your example of frustration is typical of many who come through our classes who try to self-teach themselves dovetailing skills. Some can, most can't -- at least not without the kind of frustration you shared. A video by Frank Klausz shows how he cut dovetails without marking...those without previous dovetail experience or training watched it and tried to do the same with, as expected, disastrous results and concluded that they could never do dovetails.

Simon

[Mike Henderson]

If you can, take a class; no other means -- articles, books or DVDs -- are better than that in terms of effectiveness. I have seen many many students -- with zero dovetail experience or little sawing skills -- making acceptable to very good (through) dovetails by the end of a one-day course. If you develop good sawing skills, you're half-way there. So focus on your sawing skills, which again are best taught by a skilled teacher. Your example of frustration is typical of many who come through our classes who try to self-teach themselves dovetailing skills. Some can, most can't -- at least not without the kind of frustration you shared. A video by Frank Klausz shows how he cut dovetails without marking...those without previous dovetail experience or training watched it and tried to do the same with, as expected, disastrous results and concluded that they could never do dovetails.

Simon
I agree about taking a class - having someone show you what to do and show you your problem areas will really speed up your learning. I teach a one day class on hand cut dovetails and my students do both through dovetails and half-blind dovetails. Most people can do a very acceptable set of dovetails the first time.

I have two tutorials on dovetails on my website, here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/ThroughDovetails.htm)and here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/Half-BlindDovetails.htm).

Mike

[Simon MacGowen]

Most people can do a very acceptable set of dovetails the first time.
Mike

Exactly what we witness everyday, even for a newbie or someone who knew nothing about sawing. We put them through sawing -- correctly -- for a hour or two before we talk about dovetails. Those who self taught successfully (or semi-successfully) may not understand the difference a dovetail class can do to someone who wants to develop the dovetail skills with minimal "pain."

Simon

[Andrew Pitonyak]

One skill at a time. I like to use poplar for practice, it does not gum up my blades and it is relatively soft.

Take a practice board and mark the board with a pen, pencil, or marking knife so that you can make cuts with the grain. When I do this, I usually make a line across the top of the board and then down the front (and sometimes the back as well so that I can see how well I followed on both sides). Now, can you make cuts that



split the line
Are immediately next to the line on the left but leave the line
Are immediately next to the line on the right but leave the line


These cuts should be perpendicular to the face of the board, which you can tell if you mark front and back of the board. When cutting the tail, you can check for perpendicular with a mini square. If these are not perpendicular, your dovetails will not fit well.

If you cannot saw to the line, your dovetails will be very difficult.

Mark out your tails, make your cuts and clear out the waste. Are the cuts perpendicular to the face? Are the cuts straight? I think that Rob Cosman angled the boards in his vice so that he cut vertically for each tail. I used to do that. The idea is that you only need to learn to cut in one direction (up and down), at least to start.

If your tails look good, then you need to figure out how to mark where the pins should be cut. If you mark with a knife, then you need to cut right along (next to) that knife line on the waste side. If you use a pen or pencil, i expect that you need to exactly remove the pen or pencil mark and not go over it on the non-waste side.

When I mark for cutting my tails, I always drop a perpendicular line and then I cut to that line. Unlike some people that I know, I have trouble cutting vertically without something to show me where to cut. I cut some dovetails in oak using the tape method shown by Derek on his site and they came out very well. The tape is time consuming for me, but I have done it only once, so perhaps it would get faster if I did it more often.

And if you make it up to Columbus, Ohio, stop by and we can cut some dovetails.

I hope that this helps at least a little.

[Simon MacGowen]

Are the cuts straight? I think that Rob Cosman angled the boards in his vice so that he cut vertically for each tail.

Rob doesn't angle his boards, rather he angles his saw as most skilled dovetailers do. In a tradeshow demo I went to many many years ago (I don't think he does any roadshows these days), he actually advised against doing it. In his 3-1/2minute tails first youtube video, you can see him cutting all the tails with the board straight up.

Simon

[Jerry Olexa]

Good advice and good videos....Much experience here...Good information. SMC provides again...

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Rob doesn't angle his boards, rather he angles his saw as most skilled dovetailers do. In a tradeshow demo I went to many many years ago (I don't think he does any roadshows these days), he actually advised against doing it. In his 3-1/2minute tails first youtube video, you can see him cutting all the tails with the board straight up.

Simon

Interesting.... I thought that he was the one who set the boards at an angle, but that would have been in his first DVD. I would have been shocked if he did it in practice, only while teaching new sawers. I wonder who it was if it was not Rob.

[Patrick Chase]

Interesting.... I thought that he was the one who set the boards at an angle, but that would have been in his first DVD. I would have been shocked if he did it in practice, only while teaching new sawers. I wonder who it was if it was not Rob.

If you cut tails first then the angle isn't critical to fit, as any angular error is corrected when you scribe the pins from the tails. Those cuts only need to be accurate enough to look uniform, and that's a pretty low bar because the human eye isn't very good at measuring non-right angles.

In contrast, it IS important that the tail cuts be at right angles to the face, and starting on a level surface makes that easier to achieve since the saw won't tend to "skitter off" to one side or the other. That's why most teachers (or at least the ones I've experienced/watched/read) don't recommend tilting the tailboard.

[Brent Cutshall]

Welp, I'm getting keyed up sitting here. I'm a gonna go and ruin some more boards now, wish me luck everybody. Thanks all!

[Robert Engel]

IMO a few keys to good DTs:

1. Cutting square across for tails and square down for pins.
2. Leaving the line (not splitting the line).
3. A quality saw.
4. Quality chisels with low side bevel height to avoid marring the corners of the tails when paring.
5. A slight back bevel cut on tails.
6. Accurately milled parts.
7. An accurate system for lining up parts and marking (I'm not a fan of marking knives I use a sharp, flat sided pencil lead and leave all the line).
8. SHARP chisels!

I am also a fan of making a shallow rabbet on the tails.

You have the right attitude keep trying don't be so critical on yourself.

When you do get the perfect DT (and you will) try to remember what you did!!