How to sharpen a marking knife

[ShawnE Curry]

I recently purchased a Crown Tools right hand marking knife used off of eBay. It looks like it someone tried sharpening it with an electric kitchen knife sharpener. Isn't it supposed to be flat on one side?

Thanks,
Shawn

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Yes, it should be sharpened flat on one side, and beveled on the other. Usually they have a point with an edge on either side so you can mark left or turn it to the other edge and mark right. I have also seen them with only one bevel and you buy two kinves- one for marking left, and the other for marking right. (or turn around and just mark the other direction on the other side.)

I do believe I have seen a Japanese marking knife that was double-beveled, which I can only assume would be for freehand marking where you are not butting up against the edge.

[Luke Dupont]

You can use a double beveled knife. Just angle the knife so that the bevel is vertical / straight up and down against your square, and ensure the square is covering the good side of the cut.

[Reinis Kanders]

I prefer double bevel for marking.

[Daniel Rode]

If you want to restore it back to a single bevel, I would grind the edge back flat until I erased the bevel on the back. Then I'd grind and then hone the edge until it was sharp.

[lowell holmes]

You can use a double beveled knife. Just angle the knife so that the bevel is vertical / straight up and down against your square, and ensure the square is covering the good side of the cut.

If you use a box cutter for marking, you angle the knife. That's how Paul Sellers taught us. I still use a box cutter. I have marking knives, but prefer the box cutter.

You can really use a knife wall to work to.

[Luke Dupont]

If you use a box cutter for marking, you angle the knife. That's how Paul Sellers taught us. I still use a box cutter. I have marking knives, but prefer the box cutter.

You can really use a knife wall to work to.

Yeah - that's what I was saying. I've actually been using a home-made marking knife which is double-bevel, made from a length of leftover bandsaw blade material. It's in the profile of a box cutter, and works wonders. I made it after watching Paul Sellers working with his knife :)

I think the bandsaw blade actually makes a wonderful marking knife, because it's exceedingly thin and hard. It meets *very* little resistance because its thickness. Granted, I had to sharpen it on diamond stones, as it would be far too hard for a file or, heaven forbid, a waterstone.

I think my next project, when I have some thicker saw blade material left-over to work with, will be to make a combination marking knife/awl that I saw on the Woodwright's shop (awl on one end, knife on the other. Just a flat piece of metal).

[Jim Koepke]

I like my marking knives flat on one side and the bevels on the other. Two of mine are made out of an old plane blade and one is made from a piece of old saw blade.

335443

I might give Luke's idea of making one from a bandsaw blade a try.

My first marking knife was made from a piece of an old kitchen/table knife.

A person can use just about anything for marking, become used to it and do fine work.

If it is comfortable and works, who can ask for anything more.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I think the bandsaw blade actually makes a wonderful marking knife, because it's exceedingly thin and hard. It meets *very* little resistance because its thickness. Granted, I had to sharpen it on diamond stones, as it would be far too hard for a file or, heaven forbid, a waterstone.

The part about waterstones here is blatant nonsense, as is the suggestion that they're even vaguely in the same class as files.

Conventional hardened-steel files can realistically be used on metals up to HRC 54 or so. There are some milled tungsten carbide files on the market that can go a fair bit harder than that, but they're pretty expensive.

With the right waterstone you can easily go up into the mid 60s HRC, which happens to be right about where the tips of the teeth of quality band saw blades top out. The bodies of bandsaw blades are and must be much softer than that, though, typically down in the 40s-50s ("must be" because very hard steels aren't tough enough to be cycled like a bandsaw blade).

You're fooling yourself if you think that knife is hard enough to require diamonds.

[Pat Barry]

The part about waterstones here is blatant nonsense, as is the suggestion that they're even vaguely in the same class as files.

Conventional hardened-steel files can realistically be used on metals up to HRC 54 or so. There are some milled tungsten carbide files on the market that can go a fair bit harder than that, but they're pretty expensive.

With the right waterstone you can easily go up into the mid 60s HRC, which happens to be right about where the tips of the teeth of quality band saw blades top out. The bodies of bandsaw blades are and must be much softer than that, though, typically down in the 40s-50s ("must be" because very hard steels aren't tough enough to be cycled like a bandsaw blade).

You're fooling yourself if you think that knife is hard enough to require diamonds.
Could be it was a carbide toothed bandsaw blade?

[Jeff Heath]

Could be it was a carbide toothed bandsaw blade?

It certainly could; more information would be required before summarily discounting the statement as "blatant nonsense." The concept of directly calling someone out without getting all the details, first, seems to be a bit counter productive to any thread, and also tells a lot about a person who seems to consistently need to have the last say on something....

I use carbide bandsaw blades from Starrett in my larger bandsaw, as I have my own sawmill, and never really know what I might find inside a tree of questionable origin. I rarely saw 4/4 with the woodmizer, and find myself resawing 8/4 or thicker stock a lot. Those carbide blades are expensive, and when they give up the ghost, I keep them for repurposing into other tools, just like this thread. A waterstone won't even make a scratch, but a diamond grinder and diamond hones sure do the trick. No blatant nonsense about that....

[Stanley Covington]

There are many different styles of marking knives. In function, most are either double beveled or single beveled, with variations thereof, and either variety can do a great job, or screw the pooch, depending on how it is used.

Here is a clever sharpening technique that was taught to me by a man that made a living for over 70 years with a marking knife, and was awarded a medal by the Japanese government for his lifetime contribution to the highest levels of Japanese traditional woodworking. He did amazing work; Some of it is in museums here in Tokyo. I suppose this technique would work for double beveled knives, but I have only used it for single beveled knives. It will definitely work for kensaki (spear point) style marking knives too.

Shape the marking knife's blade so it's cutting edge is at a low angle, perhaps 15-20 degrees from a square point. This makes it easier to keep the maximum amount of the blade's width in contact with the guide edge of the metal square or bevel gauge during the stroke, without riding up onto the square or bevel's blade, and while keeping the knife more upright during the stroke. This provides you greater control, and keeps the knife from running away.

Now for the tricky part. Drum roll please, Doc. After sharpening this cutting edge, stand the knife more or less vertically on a medium grit stone's face, with approximately 2-3mm of the cutting edge's tip hanging off the edge of the stone, and drag it towards you, totally dulling all but this 2-3mm of the tip of the cutting edge. One stroke should do the deed.

Did you say something? I was sure Honda san was hallucinating when he told me this all those years ago.

Strange as it may seem, these tiny details make a marking knife a more precise and obedient tool. The knife follows the guiding edge more faithfully, it shaves significantly less steel from the square or bevel gauge, and the depth and width of the lines it cuts are more uniform.

Give it a try... Your layout will improve and your steel square will thank you.

Stan

PS: When using your marking knife, it helps to stab the tip into your oilpot from time to time. You do have an oilpot, right?

[Patrick Chase]

It certainly could; more information would be required before summarily discounting the statement as "blatant nonsense." The concept of directly calling someone out without getting all the details, first, seems to be a bit counter productive to any thread, and also tells a lot about a person who seems to consistently need to have the last say on something....

I use carbide bandsaw blades from Starrett in my larger bandsaw, as I have my own sawmill, and never really know what I might find inside a tree of questionable origin. I rarely saw 4/4 with the woodmizer, and find myself resawing 8/4 or thicker stock a lot. Those carbide blades are expensive, and when they give up the ghost, I keep them for repurposing into other tools, just like this thread. A waterstone won't even make a scratch, but a diamond grinder and diamond hones sure do the trick. No blatant nonsense about that....

How would you go about making a marking knife out of a carbide-toothed bandsaw blade? (other than by removing the carbide teeth and using the soft steel body) I had actually thought that possibility through....

But yeah, point taken. I shouldn't have reacted like that.

[Luke Dupont]

I like my marking knives flat on one side and the bevels on the other. Two of mine are made out of an old plane blade and one is made from a piece of old saw blade.

335443

I might give Luke's idea of making one from a bandsaw blade a try.

My first marking knife was made from a piece of an old kitchen/table knife.

A person can use just about anything for marking, become used to it and do fine work.

If it is comfortable and works, who can ask for anything more.

jtk


Wow! That one in the center with a turned handle is stunning. Definitely share with us if you make another! I also like the blade profile. I was considering a single side bevel, spear-point style marking knife, but decided against it because I like a straight angle that allows me to hold the knife at a very low angle to the wood, as opposed to a higher angle that other profiles necessitate. Your knife has a rather acute angle between the edges, though, which would allow one to hold it rather low to the wood.

I guess a chisel-style blade is a possibility too. A square profile, with a bevel on three sides and a flat back? You could then have the best of all worlds: single bevel, ability to mark on either side of a square, cut at a low angle to the wood, and you could even pare to your line on the waste side without switching to a chisel! I guess you might want something thicker than a bandsaw blade for that design, though.

Do you find you have any difficulty with the single beveled knives digging into the side of your square, though? I hadn't considered that, but Stanley's comment brought it to my attention.

[ShawnE Curry]

Thanks for all the great replies! I ended up grinding it on my water stone freehand until the bevel was gone from the other side. The primary bevel was a very shallow angle so I figure it was supposed to have a secondary bevel and I worked both. After honing it cuts easily in any direction even in the end grain and turning long grain.

I can see the advantage of having a bevel on each side for left and right marking. I think I do like having the one side flat though - so I think I'd want to go with the spear-type if I decide to make one or buy another?

[Patrick Chase]

Being more constructive now: I like the Hock marking and "violin" knives (http://hocktools.com/products/knives.html) a lot. I use the double-bevel form of the violin knife. IMO the key to using double-bevel blades effectively is to get the bevel surface flat so that it can rest against the surface of a straightedge/guide when tilted.

I also like the Veritas "shop striking knives" (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69870&cat=1,42936,42949&ap=1). They're small and reach easily into corners, and the single-beveled blade is very thin and flexible such that the back can be pressed up against a reference surface almost like the blade of a flush-cut saw. The blades are A2 and hold a decent edge.

The newer Veritas marking knife is nice for when you need to apply a lot of pressure, but expensive and a bit of a hassle to switch the bevel side (you have to remove the blade and reverse it).

I've tried HSS and carbide knives, and don't really like either. The issue is that they require higher bevel angles than and don't take as keen of an edge as O1 (Hock) or A2/PM-V11 (Veritas), and those are critical liabilities in a marking knife IMO.

I think marking knives are a case where tougher, mid-hardness steels are the right call. Ironically I think that converting bandsaw blades is a good idea precisely because they aren't hard.

[Patrick Chase]

There are many different styles of marking knives. In function, most are either double beveled or single beveled, with variations thereof, and either variety can do a great job, or screw the pooch, depending on how it is used.

Here is a clever sharpening technique that was taught to me by a man that made a living for over 70 years with a marking knife, and was awarded a medal by the Japanese government for his lifetime contribution to the highest levels of Japanese traditional woodworking. He did amazing work; Some of it is in museums here in Tokyo. I suppose this technique would work for double beveled knives, but I have only used it for single beveled knives. It will definitely work for kensaki (spear point) style marking knives too.

Shape the marking knife's blade so it's cutting edge is at a low angle, perhaps 15-20 degrees from a square point. This makes it easier to keep the maximum amount of the blade's width in contact with the guide edge of the metal square or bevel gauge during the stroke, without riding up onto the square or bevel's blade, and while keeping the knife more upright during the stroke. This provides you greater control, and keeps the knife from running away.

Now for the tricky part. Drum roll please, Doc. After sharpening this cutting edge, stand the knife more or less vertically on a medium grit stone's face, with approximately 2-3mm of the cutting edge's tip hanging off the edge of the stone, and drag it towards you, totally dulling all but this 2-3mm of the tip of the cutting edge. One stroke should do the deed.

Did you say something? I was sure Honda san was hallucinating when he told me this all those years ago.

Strange as it may seem, these tiny details make a marking knife a more precise and obedient tool. The knife follows the guiding edge more faithfully, it shaves significantly less steel from the square or bevel gauge, and the depth and width of the lines it cuts are more uniform.

Give it a try... Your layout will improve and your steel square will thank you.

Stan

PS: When using your marking knife, it helps to stab the tip into your oilpot from time to time. You do have an oilpot, right?

You turned part of your knife into a skate!

Seriously, I think this makes a lot of sense. The tip does most of the actual marking anyway, which means that the rest of the edge just causes trouble by following grain etc.

[Andrew Hughes]

I bought two left and right marking Knives from Harrilson Stanley some time ago.Oh man did mess them up I kept breaking the points off and every time I fixed them just made it worse.I can see the how Stanley C suggestion would have worked.
I still have them it just make me sick to look at them.:(

[Patrick Chase]

Being more constructive now: I like the Hock marking and "violin" knives (http://hocktools.com/products/knives.html) a lot. I use the double-bevel form of the violin knife. IMO the key to using double-bevel blades effectively is to get the bevel surface flat so that it can rest against the surface of a straightedge/guide when tilted.

I also like the Veritas "shop striking knives" (http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=69870&cat=1,42936,42949&ap=1). They're small and reach easily into corners, and the single-beveled blade is very thin and flexible such that the back can be pressed up against a reference surface almost like the blade of a flush-cut saw. The blades are A2 and hold a decent edge.

The newer Veritas marking knife is nice for when you need to apply a lot of pressure, but expensive and a bit of a hassle to switch the bevel side (you have to remove the blade and reverse it).

I've tried HSS and carbide knives, and don't really like either. The issue is that they require higher bevel angles than and don't take as keen of an edge as O1 (Hock) or A2/PM-V11 (Veritas), and those are critical liabilities in a marking knife IMO.

I think marking knives are a case where tougher, mid-hardness steels are the right call. Ironically I think that converting bandsaw blades is a good idea precisely because they aren't hard.

One other remark: I think that pencils get an undeservedly bad rap.

If you use a 2 mm lead holder (http://www.amazon.com/Alvin-Pro-Matic-Metal-Holder-MC5/dp/B001DKDKK8/ref=sr_1_19?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1460231714&sr=1-19&keywords=2+mm+lead+holder&refinements=p_n_feature_keywords_two_browse-bin%3A4928956011%2Cp_72%3A1248945011) and point the lead properly then you can register the conical tip of the lead flat against the side of a straightedge or guide just like the back or bevel of a knife. You can get extremely fine and accurate lines that way, significantly better than with a mechanical pencil. I mark out my tails that way (though I scribe tails->pins with a knife).

Of course I'm from the last generation of mechanical engineers who actually learned how to draft that way. I suspect those skills will die out for the most part.

[Rob Luter]

Mine are all flat on one side and beveled on the other. They all have spear points too, so they can be used both RH and LH. I use the Veritas for heavier work, and the Czech Edge for most everything else. The homebrew at the bottom is made from a skillsaw blade and a chunk of Rosewood. It's good for tight dovetails and other applications requiring longer reach. I lap the backs as I would a chisel or plane iron, and try to sharpen the cutting edges with the same kind of quality. They cut deep and true.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4045/4378209549_e19d8b994e_b.jpg

[Lenore Epstein]

My newish marking knife which was hanging on Woodcraft's display is like the spear-point Veritas model in Patrick's link except for its simple round wood handle. At some point I'm going to flatten the handle's sides with sandpaper so I don't have to check the position visually all the time, but otherwise I really like the little thing; the fairly wide bevel is easy to register on a stone, and its much easier to make consistent marks with the flat back held vertically against a rule or square than with any pencil or pencil-like object I've used. I left the pretty broad low-angle bevel the way it came, which made it easy to register against a waterstone. I'm sure I'll want other shapes and sizes of knives as I move along, but this one suits me for now.

This PM I'll try to find and post a Fine Woodworking video I found after I bought the knife. It's a short matter of fact thing by a guy from (I think) Blue Spruce, and ended by showing how to put just a small radius on the very tip of the spear, which did indeed make it run a little smoother.

[Derek Cohen]

I recently purchased a Crown Tools right hand marking knife used off of eBay. It looks like it someone tried sharpening it with an electric kitchen knife sharpener. Isn't it supposed to be flat on one side?

Thanks,
Shawn


I've lost count of the number of knives I made over the years, mostly as gifts although I sold a bunch as well. Knifes such as these for detail work and transferring dovetails, and scratch awls for marking (use a scratch awl to mark off a scale. This is far more accurate than using a knife) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A%20Knife%20for%20Marking%20Dovetails_html_m3f16fd e1.jpg


These are now produced by Chris Vesper, who does a better job than I ever did! Still, for grinding and sharpening V blades, the details are on my website (scroll through the article on building these knives): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A%20Knife%20for%20Marking%20Dovetails.html

A variation is to hollow grind a thicker blade, such as this Vesper heavy duty knife ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A1_zps3852c5b1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A3_zps939a08a9.jpg

And then hone on the hollow ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/A4_zpsd3128d3e.jpg

This is easy to keep razor sharp.

At the other end of the spectrum are disposable craft knives. These are excellent. I sharpen dull blades for a while, then replace them as they are so cheap. The one at the top was my grandfather's.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Knives/Knives1_zpsqxulanzr.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

I just have used my bench knife for a marking knife,a violin maker's knife,or even my pocket knife,depending upon which one was easier to reach for at the time. It's no big deal to just angle the knife to mark up against the rule(or whatever),if it is double beveled,as all the afore mentioned knives are.

I have an old Woodcraft Supply marking knife that I bought back in the 60's. Harry Strasil had shown a picture of one he made after seeing a picture of it in a catalog. I got mine nice and sharp,but somehow just never liked it much. It was fairly rough ground all over,for one thing. No brand name on it. Looked as rough as a GARLICK saw blade!!

It has a double edged knife on one end(I don't mean double beveled. It has 2 edges that come together in the center,but the edges are at a very blunt angle. That's one thing I never liked about it.). On the other end is an awl blade. I'd like it better if the edges came together at a more acute angle,like Derek's marking knives in post #22. But,I never got around to re grinding the blade. Plus,the blade is very wide. About an inch wide. That is just not necessary,or desirable on a marking knife.

But,the whole issue of marking knives has just never been that important to me. What is important is that the blade needs to be thick enough that it does not want to flex,and go following the grain off when you are trying to keep it against the rule,or whatever you are using to scribe the knife against. To me,Exacto type craft knives,scalpel knives, or bandsaw blade material would be too thin to make a rigid enough marking knife blade. I like my blade to be about 1/16" thick,as most smallish pocket knives are.

As for how hard a steel you can file,our 52 RC saw blades made from 1095 (we tested their hardness) steel would dull a file by the time we could sharpen the punched teeth of a back saw.(This before Nicholson went to Mexico!!!). I think expecting to file 54 RC steel is going to ruin your GOOD file pretty quickly. We had one of the finest hardness testers ever made,the Versitron, at the shop,WITH a couple of hardness calibration discs,to get very accurate indications of how hard the steels we tested were. Certainly every week,or more frequently,we were hardening and tempering steels with our electric,pyrometer controlled furnaces,and tempering them in another pyrometer controlled pre heated electric furnace. Then the pieces were taken to the Versitron.So,we knew exactly how hard our steels were.

An interesting story,that Versitron must have retailed at over $4000 dollars.(I can't be certain of the list price,as this model is no longer made. But there is a USED one on Ebay for $4500.00). I got it for $50.00 at the Federal surplus center because they were too lazy to find out what it WAS.:) I had to buy a new $120.00 diamond penetrator for it. A great bargain!!Yet,they would want $10.00 for carbon steel(NOT HSS!),welded bandsaw blades of UNKNOWN length !(I should have had a LONG tape measure in my pocket!) I never bought their bandsaw blades as the widest one I could weld with our welder was 1/2". And,it wasn't worth the trouble to pay $10.00 for a blade,and cut it to a usable length and silver solder it. These blades weren't carbide tipped,either. Those people had strange ideas about what various items were worth. They had a 6 foot high stack of white pine shelving that didn't sell. Probably they had over priced it. Rather than LOWER the price,they put it outside under a piece of tar paper. The pile gradually became a LUMP of brown sawdust! I hated to see that,but they had a policy of putting stuff outside if it didn't sell in a certain period of time. And,they were too hard headed to lower their price to make it sell. No,put it outside,where it would soon become totally WORTHLESS! A GREAT policy!

[lowell holmes]

[QUOTE=george wilson;2552185]I just have used my bench knife for a marking knife,a violin maker's knife,

George, what in blazes is a violin makers knife?:confused::)

I went on line and see what a violin makers knife is. Apparently it is a slender rectangular shaped blade without a handle.
What is the express use of such a knife. I'm just curious.

[Jim Koepke]

Wow! That one in the center with a turned handle is stunning. Definitely share with us if you make another! I also like the blade profile.

Thanks for the kind words Luke. The blade is a small piece cut off a broken saw blade, a Dremel with cutting wheels is a good friend here. The handle is a piece of left over rosewood and the ferrule is a compression washer from a tubing fitting. A dab of epoxy holds it all together.


Do you find you have any difficulty with the single beveled knives digging into the side of your square, though? I hadn't considered that, but Stanley's comment brought it to my attention.

Not too often once I got used to using them. I might give Stanley's sharpening/dulling tip a try.

I am also thinking of a rounded tip knife.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

As for how hard a steel you can file,our 52 RC saw blades made from 1095 (we tested their hardness) steel would dull a file by the time we could sharpen the punched teeth of a back saw.(This before Nicholson went to Mexico!!!). I think expecting to file 54 RC steel is going to ruin your GOOD file pretty quickly.

Depends on the file, but yeah, I was being generous there. I have some Vallorbe Valtitan files that are advertised as having been hardened to Rc 72, and those cut pretty well up into the low/mid 50s in my experience.

Then there are these: http://svst.com/Shop/SVST-Edge-Files/Tungsten-Carbide-File-4.html. I haven't bothered to track down the original manufacturer yet, but I've seen identical files sold for other purposes so I assume they're somebody's catalog part. You really don't want to drop or bang those around...

[george wilson]

Valtitian files are hard chrome plated,I'm pretty sure. And hard chrome is HARD! Back in the 50's,Sears sold hard chromed Craftsman files. I can't recall the name they ascribed to them,but they did say they were hard chrome plated. At the time,I didn't like the looks of them. I never used them .That was probably a bad decision! And now,Valtitian files are highly touted for use on platinum and other file eating metals!! How times have changed!

If you are talking about special files like Valtitian,it would be helpful if you said so. I had a 6 piece set of Valtitian needle files at work.

Those solid carbide files have been around for a long time. My neighbor in 1964 was a machinist,and he talked about using them on very hard steel. They are probably pretty expensive,and I doubt that they feel as sharp as a new steel file. My neighbor didn't much care for using them,anyway. Carbide is so brittle,it is hard for them to hold a sharp edge.

Congratulations. You have once again wiggled out of a statement you made.

[Patrick Chase]

Valtitian files are hard chrome plated,I'm pretty sure. And hard chrome is HARD! Back in the 50's,Sears sold hard chromed Craftsman files. I can't recall the name they ascribed to them,but they did say they were hard chrome plated. At the time,I didn't like the looks of them. I never used them .That was probably a bad decision! And now,Valtitian files are highly touted for use on platinum and other file eating metals!! How times have changed!

If you are talking about special files like Valtitian,it would be helpful if you said so. I had a 6 piece set of Valtitian needle files at work.

If you go back and look at that post, I was pointing out that water stones and non-carbide files are very different in terms of the hardness of material they can cut. I therefore assumed a hard file, as doing so prevented any possible counterargument that I was using a low standard for comparison.

Also I don't think hard-chromed files are particularly "special". Most of my larger files are hard-chromed because I acquired them when I was doing a lot of ski tuning, and such files are standard in that application. With that said the Valtitans are harder than (and twice as expensive as) my other hard-chromed files, so I think there's more to them than just that.

The conventional wisdom, with which I agree, is that hard-chroming degrades the tooth profiles a bit such that they don't cut quite as smoothly/easily as otherwise equivalent non-chromed files. World Cup ski techs (people who need the best results possible and for whom cost is no object) typically use non-chromed ones for that reason, and just grab a new file every couple sessions.



Those solid carbide files have been around for a long time. My neighbor in 1964 was a machinist,and he talked about using them on very hard steel. They are probably pretty expensive,and I doubt that they feel as sharp as a new steel file. My neighbor didn't much care for using them,anyway. Carbide is so brittle,it is hard for them to hold a sharp edge.

Those carbide files have very precisely ground teeth, which somewhat makes up for the edge-taking limitations of the material. They cut pretty well but the "sweet spot" (amount and direction of pressure to get them to cut) is smaller than with a conventional file, so they take some practice. They hold up well though they have to be babied - any sort of impact will do damage. Mine were about $60 each for 1" x 4" files IIRC, so definitely not cheap.



Congratulations. You have once again wiggled out of a statement you made.

Err, we started out differing by a whopping 2 HRC (52 HRC vs 54). I would call that "identifying small differences in assumptions" or "quibbling over details", not "wiggling out of a statement".

[george wilson]

There is a fair amount of difference in 52RC hardness vs 54RC. I would not like to use my normal steel files on 54 RC steel. I didn't know we were including exotic files like Valtitians or carbide files here,and I doubt that many on this forum use them. Or even know about them. I have never heard them mentioned even on the machinist's fora that I go to. I own thousands of NOS files myself,but neither of those Valtitian or carbide ones do I have at home. But,I do have a special file,extra hard,used in factories for testing the hardness of normal steel files. That is a pretty rare file. I think that bringing what I'll call exotic files into this discussion seems like a bit of a dodge,done in order to win a discussion.

By the way,I didn't like the way the Sears hard chromed files cut,which was another reason I did not care for them.

[george wilson]

Lowell,a violin maker's knife(the ones I used),were simple knives. They consisted of a long,rectangular bar of steel which was down the center of a wooden handle,looking rather like an oversize flat carpenter's pencil,but the blade would be the lead. The cutting edge of these knives were just ground at an angle on the end of the steel bar,sort of like a Japanese marking knife,but beveled on both sides.

I think these knives could be made to last for many years by cutting back the wooden handle as the blade wore shorter,rather like you would sharpen a carpenter's pencil(again). They are good quality blades which I liked using.

If you found a blade without a wooden handle,you would be expected to make a handle for it,or perhaps to wrap the blade in string,leather,or something to cushion your hand from the square corners of the knife.

[lowell holmes]

If you found a blade without a wooden handle,you would be expected to make a handle for it,or perhaps to wrap the blade in string,leather,or something to cushion your hand from the square corners of the knife.

That's what I was curious about. I wondered if there was a particular function a knife without a handle was used in instrument making.

I attended a conference in Williamsburg in 2005. Were you there at that time?
I did meet and chatted with Roy Underhill while there, as well as the Headley brothers.
I would like to go back, maybe this fall.

[george wilson]

In 1986 I accepted a position as master tool and musical instrument maker. But,it was behind the scenes. I retired in 2009. I am probably the only craftsman to be 2 masters! Unfortunately lately,the museum seems to be shrinking the number of employees. And that includes craftsmen.