Japanese Paring Chisels, specific choices

[Mike Holbrook]

I am interested in trying a couple Japanese Paring chisels in #1 white or Blue steel. I have Japanese bench & mortise chisels ( Koyamaichi and Ouchi ) and Gennou from Japan-Tool. I am looking for a more precise chisel that can hold a very hard edge at a lesser bevel angle. I plan to use these chisels for the work where smaller amounts of wood needs to be removed in a more precise manner, approaching a knife line. Not so much for dovetails, more for finishing up medium to larger joinery. I plan to keep these chisels very sharp and use them with hand pressure only. I know the price range for these chisels.


Brian Holcombe introduced me to Japan-Tool Online Shopping, which I like as I can see products and what may be in stock. I have found ordering tools from Japan to be something of a challenge at my knowledge level. Communication back and forth can take quite a while and suffer due to the time/language issues/differences in how business is done in Japan. I am not set on buying from So at Japan-Tool but that is my current preference in suppliers.


I know there are others on this forum who have/do shop there and at several of the other Japanese stores who are willing to deal with us silly Americans. I am hoping to get some suggestions on specific chisels- makers/sizes/steels/shapes…so I can buy directly without trying to communicate back & forth for months. I realize guys like So and Stu can be very helpful, but I have also found that trying to select tools with their help can be a challenge due to the volume of requests and the technical detail they have to deal with.

[Brian Holcombe]

Trouble is that most of it is made to order, especially when you start getting into the top tiers. The top makers are always busy and so it does take quite some time to fill orders. Hidari Konobu, for instance, takes about 6 months, give or take. So, between that and the ordering process, it takes some time.

So has some stock of Kikuhiromaru white 1 paring chisels IIRC. Kikuhiromaru have treated me very well. They're about the same hardness as the Konobu chisels that I have based on feedback from the sharpening stones.

So can take a while to return emails, but patience pays off.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, unfortunately I can only echo Brian. I purchased my Kiyohisa slicks from So several years ago. They were then a 3 year wait. I gather that this is up to a 6 year wait. Superb chisels, as might be expected. However, there are a number of other makers who produce chisels to be purchased "off the shelf", and all with a good reputation. Koyamaichi is just one. I've been using his chisels for over a decade, and never once thought to upgrade them to a boutique maker (having stated this, Koyamaichi were a boutique maker back then!). Once you hit a standard like this, the extra refinements are lost on most, and there is a diminishing return on the cost and wait.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Reinis Kanders]

I got a couple Koyamaichi parers from Stu that were in stock. I like them, but I also like old Buck's long chisel that is easier to sharpen.

[Mike Holbrook]

Brian & Derek,

Thanks for your comments. I have had a fascination with steels, particularly steels used in hand tools, reaching back to my teens. I have read some of Brian's and Stanley's information on the various laminated Japanese steels and chisel makers. I am interested in the different steels and makers work.

There is something I find attractive from a very basic, man and his tools perspective, about the simplest of tools and how men have "refined" them over our history. Certainly one might question the degree to which the various ways of making steel tools might have provided discernible benefits. Certainly we might question whether the cost and level of skill necessary to make and purchase these tools is "justifiable". Still I enjoy experimenting with basic steel tools for myself as much from a historical perspective as from a desire to find the "best" or "most styling" tool.

I am interested in the various types of paring chisels. I have seen: different handle lengths, thinner and thicker tool bodies, thicker and thinner hard laminations, different overall and land shapes....and of course the different steels. I know So and Brian like the chisels made by Kikuhiromaru and I have been thinking about buying one or two to try if I can figure out which ones.

So has been very pleasant to converse with. I feel a little guilty asking him general questions and thought I might be able to get a few answers posting here. I thought others might have some interest in this subject and we might save So having to answer the same question 40-11 more times.

[Stanley Covington]

Mike:

I'm a bit uncertain of what you are asking. If you want to buy good paring chisels, but don't want to wait years, there are some options.

As far as the variety of parers made, there are two main types. The first is the "usu nomi", which translates to "thin chisel." As the name suggests, they are fairly thin. The blade can flex in heavy use, but they can get into tight places, are easiest to hold in the hand, and so are the most common.

The next is the "shinogi" type, which some people call "umeki nomi." Shinogi chisels have a nearly triangular cross section at the blade. With a higher moment of inertia, they are stiffer than usunomi, and work better in tight corners, but because they are taller, they will not fit into some places. Shinogi are handy for cleaning dovetail joints, and skinny, longer slots and keyways. An usunomi the same width as a skinny (say 6mm) shinogi will be quite fragile. Shinogi are not as common as usunomi.

There are thicker paring chisels with rectangular cross sections for heavy paring used against a jig. You don't see these very often.

And then there are the fishtail "bachi usu nomi" named for the tool used to pluck shamisen strings. They look handy, but I do not own one of these.

You said that you are interested in tool steel. I commend you. What most people don't realize is that it does not take much extra effort to make an excellent blade out of reasonably pure steel if one has the skill and is committed to high standards of quality. The trick is finding the man with the skill and the determination.

There are Japanese blacksmiths praised to the heavens on English-speaking forums that make absolutely beautiful chisels, but that are sub-par in the essential forging and heat treating department. If I named names, a firestorm would ensue. Such more photogenic blacksmiths continue to prosper because the people that buy their tools do not know the difference but judge based on outward appearance and the price tag. Human nature, I suppose.

There exist some less well-known blacksmiths that do not self-promote so well, and are not known outside of Japan. I know of one gentlemen that makes a great chisel from White Paper steel. I own and use his oire, tataki, and tsuki (usunomi) chisels and have found them to be of excellent quality, but very inexpensively priced. No, the two are not mutually exclusive. He does no file work whatsoever, which is the primary reason they are inexpensive, so his chisel's appearance is not special. I have suggested many times that he send his chisels prior to heat treating to a professional filer to shape them and make them pretty. But he will have none of it. Stubborn.

If appearance matters more than performance, I will not recommend him. But if you want plain, high quality steel, hand forged and heat treated to perfection, then his product will make you smile. I say this as someone who uses mostly Kiyotada chisels I had custom made 30 years ago. Shimamura san passed away, and so I went looking for another blacksmith that could approximate the sharpness, edge retention, and sharpening characteristics of Shimamura san's blades. This guy is pretty close. He knows how to work White Paper steel, and does not mind making them hard if requested. FYI, most blacksmiths have reduced the hardness of their cutting edges the last few years to reduce complaints from amateurs in Japan that don't know how to sharpen or maintain a hard steel blade properly. He does not put the time into shaping and filing his chisels that Shimamura san or Yamazaki san (Ichihiro) did.

He has refused my requests for kote nomi and shinogi, but he has told me he will do the ootsuki nomi (slicks). I have not seen them or used them, however.

Stan

[Mike Holbrook]

Stanley, thanks for the favor of your reply.

I got out my copy of Toshio Odate's book, "Japanese Woodworking Tools" and did a review of the types of chisels he describes. He does provide illustrative drawings. I am interested in Usu-nomi style vs the Shinogi style chisels at this juncture. I have been confused a little by some of the pictures and terms. Tools for Working Wood offers a Umeki-Nomi, which I believe is similar/the same as a Shinogi-nomi. I am not sure if it is the pictures or not but these chisels look smaller than the Usu-nomi. Odate also describes Tsuki-nomi which I believe are often referred to as slicks, larger than the Usu-nomi. Odate also mentions a Uchinuki-nomi, which I believe is designed to be struck with a Gennou and may also be used to clean out through mortises. As far as the time required to make the tools. I am not getting any younger and have a move to a new location planned which is sort of pressing me in terms of time frames and other projects. I like spending time on excavators, bob cats and backhoes too, working in different much larger mediums.

I am interested in making more traditional furniture designs. I have been reading Schwarz's new book 'The Anarchist's Design Book" and have interest in older staked leg designs for chairs and tables. I have taken several classes on making Windsor/Irish/Welsh stick chairs. I like working with split green wood and dry split wood as well. I find a common design thread in Japanese, Danish and more traditional, less ornate American/European furniture that is appealing to me. I am less interested in making perfect dovetail joints and more interested in simpler designs that show off the character of the wood and even leaves traces of the process of making the wood into furniture.

The idea of rougher chisels with more attention placed on function and less on appearance appeals to me too. I make no claim to having higher level skills as a woodworker but I do very much enjoy the process of working the wood. For many years I have done mostly construction projects and I am just getting to the point that I want to do more furniture construction, which is why I have been taking the classes. Unfortunately, I am still in the habit of taking on constructions projects that keep me from focusing on the furniture.

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley, thanks for the favor of your reply.

I got out my copy of Toshio Odate's book, "Japanese Woodworking Tools" and did a review of the types of chisels he describes. He does provide illustrative drawings. I am interested in Usu-nomi style vs the Shinogi style chisels at this juncture. I have been confused a little by some of the pictures and terms. Tools for Working Wood offers a Umeki-Nomi, which I believe is similar/the same as a Shinogi-nomi. I am not sure if it is the pictures or not but these chisels look smaller than the Usu-nomi. Odate also describes Tsuki-nomi which I believe are often referred to as slicks, larger than the Usu-nomi. Odate also mentions a Uchinuki-nomi, which I believe is designed to be struck with a Gennou and may also be used to clean out through mortises. As far as the time required to make the tools. I am not getting any younger and have a move to a new location planned which is sort of pressing me in terms of time frames and other projects. I like spending time on excavators, bob cats and backhoes too, working in different much larger mediums.

I am interested in making more traditional furniture designs. I have been reading Schwarz's new book 'The Anarchist's Design Book" and have interest in older staked leg designs for chairs and tables. I have taken several classes on making Windsor/Irish/Welsh stick chairs. I like working with split green wood and dry split wood as well. I find a common design thread in Japanese, Danish and more traditional, less ornate American/European furniture that is appealing to me. I am less interested in making perfect dovetail joints and more interested in simpler designs that show off the character of the wood and even leaves traces of the process of making the wood into furniture.

The idea of rougher chisels with more attention placed on function and less on appearance appeals to me too. I make no claim to having higher level skills as a woodworker but I do very much enjoy the process of working the wood. For many years I have done mostly construction projects and I am just getting to the point that I want to do more furniture construction, which is why I have been taking the classes. Unfortunately, I am still in the habit of taking on constructions projects that keep me from focusing on the furniture.

Tsuki nomi 突鑿 is the categorical term for "push chisels" which includes usunomi 薄鑿, shinogi 鎬鑿, and ootsuki nomi 大突鑿.　Ootsuki nomi translates to "Big push chisels," and are very large push or paring chisels similar to slicks in the West. This category of chisels does not have hoops or rings on the head of the handle, and are not intended to be struck with a hammer. Ergo "push."

Stan

[Matt Lau]

Mike,

I'll jump in on this one, as I had the same question a while back.
I bought a Blue Spruce Parer in 18 mm (3/4") and a Komaichi Usu-Nomi (24 mm) (from Stu).
Per my understanding--usu-nomi are very thin paring chisels (perfect for shaving spruce bracing on guitar tops); shinogi nomi are specialized for paring dovetails. I'm not sure about ootsuki nomi--I'm assuming it's like a Western slick?

Anyways, Stan is too gentlemanly to plug himself, so I'll plug him instead. :D

I have been extremely impressed with the tools that he's recommended and bought for me (gennou, chisels).
The edge-holding, the balance, the overall feel of the tools is a few leagues nicer than my Blue Spruce or Lee Valley chisels. He most recently helped me get a custom 2 mm chisel for lutherie that is significantly better than anything that I've tried on the market (it pares end grain, air-hardened pearwood like butter).

I'd encourage you to privately discourse with him about what you need to do...he'll likely know the right blacksmith, chisel, and variation of chisel that will be perfect.

Warning...once you experience that level of tool, it is a very addictive, expensive path!

[Reinis Kanders]

Matt, how does Blue Spruce compare with the Koyamaichi in your experience?

Thanks.


Mike,

I'll jump in on this one, as I had the same question a while back.
I bought a Blue Spruce Parer in 18 mm (3/4") and a Komaichi Usu-Nomi (24 mm) (from Stu).
Per my understanding--usu-nomi are very thin paring chisels (perfect for shaving spruce bracing on guitar tops); shinogi nomi are specialized for paring dovetails. I'm not sure about ootsuki nomi--I'm assuming it's like a Western slick?

Anyways, Stan is too gentlemanly to plug himself, so I'll plug him instead. :D

I have been extremely impressed with the tools that he's recommended and bought for me (gennou, chisels).
The edge-holding, the balance, the overall feel of the tools is a few leagues nicer than my Blue Spruce or Lee Valley chisels. He most recently helped me get a custom 2 mm chisel for lutherie that is significantly better than anything that I've tried on the market (it pares end grain, air-hardened pearwood like butter).

I'd encourage you to privately discourse with him about what you need to do...he'll likely know the right blacksmith, chisel, and variation of chisel that will be perfect.

Warning...once you experience that level of tool, it is a very addictive, expensive path!

[Mike Holbrook]

Hi Matt,

Thanks for the input.
I am interested in learning how people use various types of these chisels, specific joinery in specific projects. I am still trying to figure out more and better ways to do the specific joinery I am interested in. I want to get better/faster at making mortises and tenons for benches, chairs, tables and cabinet carcasses. I see peoples project posts but do not typically find description of how/what tools/techniques were employed. I have a few videos by Jim Kingshott and can see he uses Japanese chisels, among others. I have Charlesworth's "Chisel Techniques For Precision Joinery" which helps but the work is done with different tools on a small scale with a light level of pressure that I am not sure applies to larger scale work. I am interested in real world, full scale work. I am watching Charlesworth's video on "Drawer Making and Fitting" but the scale still seems small and at a level of precision that may not apply to the "rougher" work I am interested in.

I like making chairs and the joinery and shaping required for that work. There are special tools for making seats: spokeshaves, adze, scorp, travisher...still I have difficulty making some of the more precise cuts in seat depressions. It has occurred to me that gouges might work for these cuts. The ones I have seem either too heavy/thick for the work or more designed for even tighter carving. I know the Japanese make gouges too but I don't think I have ever read about anyone using these tools.

[Mike Holbrook]

I know this may be sort of a tough topic but I am interested in how people sharpen these tools. I have become a great fan of my grinder, Spyderco stones and hand sharpening as they have made major speed improvements in my ability to get sharp edges on plane blades.

I know some people do not like hollow grinding chisels. I am just not sure if the "hollow" made by a 8" wheel is particularly significant? It seems to me that if we are not grinding on a wheel but honing by hand on a flat stone we wind up with a convex surface on our blade. The convex surface being the result of some degree of rocking inherent in hand honing a flat surface. Certainly with practice/slowing down, we may be able to minimize rocking and reduce the deviation from dead flat, even without a jig. The question for me then becomes whether the small difference in the chisel's edge is worth slowing the sharpening process down for?

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike,

Chisels like you are looking for are tempered at a pretty low heat, any sort of grinding may increase that. Second, they rely on support behind the steel from soft iron, removing this may encourage chipping....even in paring chisels. Paring chisels can be put through some incredible stresses in their work.

To go the most from these chisels you may also want to search for a natural finishing stone, the combination of hard white 1 and a natural finishing stone is quite an enjoyable one, allowing you to bring a slightly dulled edge back to razor sharp in moments. Rather than thoroughly dulling the blade and starting over from a grinding wheel on through.

[Matt Lau]

My Blue Spruce is a beautiful piece of functional sculpture.
The blade and handle are perfectly machined and balanced.
The steel is just "sharp enough" (I didn't sharpen it yet)...while it probably can get end-grain pine paring sharp, it didn't feel as truly sharp as my Japanese chisels.

The Koyamaichi is not as pretty, but I'd reach for it first.
It feels about as sharp as the Watanabe chisels that I got from Stan (maybe a smidge less sharp)--which is to say, confidence inspiring.

My most recent standard of sharp is "dermatone sharp."
Since I don't have appreciable arm hair, I can't shave it.
However, I find a truly sharp blade to feel "sticky" against the edge of my finger (for lack of a better description).
It once slipped, cut me, and I didn't bleed for a solid minute.

I'm not sure how to objectively describe the difference (as I don't have the patience or time to pull and awesome Derek Cohen-inspired test).

On a side note, the chisels that I got from Stan might even be slightly sharper than the Koyamaichi.
I'll have to go back to the old pearwood, and play with both chisels.
However, the Koyamaichi are no slouch!

-Matt

ps. I'm considering whether or not to ebay the Blue Spruce chisel.
It's so beautiful though!

[Matt Lau]

Re: sharpening.

I use a diamond (600 grit EZE LAP for nasty nicks, edge reshaping), spyderco black, spyderco white (UF), and a natural kyoto finishing stone. I switched to this after swearing at my King stones (and spending 4 hours non-sharpening a Mujingfang plane blade).

I find that good quality, hand forged Japanese chisels and blades seem to be much easier for me to sharpen than most steels. While soft, gummy German steel is technically easier to grind away, it's a PITA to get a crisp line instead of a mushed, distorted blade angle (in my unskilled hands at least). The Japanese have a very soft jigane that grinds extremely easily, and the hard higane is a lot thinner, and provides some guidance. Also, the jigane surface is much, much bigger than the standard western chisel. In contrast, some older American chisels can be a lot harder to freehand sharpen because it's a solid mass of very tough carbon steel.

For Japanese chisels, I really don't recommend hollow grinding. You don't need to!
The jigane is extremely soft, and almost neglible during hand sharpening.
For western blades, it may help speed things up quite a bit.

For sharpening my chisels and plane blades, I've been adopting a sideways "S" motion.
I try to keep the whole primary bevel flat on the stone, and use the whole stone.
After I raise a bur, I flip the stone and knock it off with some toilet paper.
I go to the next stone, and do a sideways S motion, and repeat.

I'd had the convexing problem before when I was just copying the same motion as with a guide "front--back".
It wasn't until I had my larger Kell guide fall off the stone and my blade bite into my spyderco stone that I threw away everything that I'd done with sharpening and just use a common sense approach to sharpening. I found that my sharpening time dropped from 10 -15 minutes of fussing around and resetting a guide, to about 2-5 minutes for a few blades (including uncapping the stones, lapping, massaging the blades later, and coating them with oil).

By going diagonal, you maximize the surface area to prevent lateral displacement of the blade from the stone--translation, the rocking is reduced.

David Weaver has a great video on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G85B6iVCyMo&nohtml5=False

I'd really encourage you to try freehanding with a few good stones and a flat blade.
For coarse, I like a diamond. For intermediate, I like ceramic. For final, I like a good natural waterstone.
You can sharpen with pretty much anything, but I've found this to work best for me.

[David Wong]

I can't really comment on how to sharpen japanese chisels faster, since it always seems to take me longer to sharpen than I expect. Hollow grinding however, has some side effects. As Matt pointed out, the laminated blades have a thicker soft iron and thinner hard steel layers. They do not wear on the stone at equal rates. You need good technique to apply more pressure to the hard steel layer than the soft iron, otherwise you will slowly lessen the bevel angle with every sharpening. By hollow grinding, you can accelerate that effect, since you are presenting a reduced soft iron surface. Conversely, careful hollow grinding of mostly the hard steel layer can also be used to effect an eventual higher bevel angle. Of course if you hollow grind frequently, this is all mote, but you would be wasting a lot of steel.

[Mike Holbrook]

I understand people do not like the hollow grind, but somehow the logic of the argument against it is escaping me.

It seems to me that the two lines created at the top and bottom of a hollow ground blade would make it easier to lean a little harder on the harder side, removing very little/nothing on the top/soft side. I do not understand how this method might waste metal? The hollow seems to me to make a sort of micro bevel, actually at a slightly increased angle. The only difference I see is, a large area of the hard metal and softer metal does not have to be abraded away every time the blade is honed. Doesn't this metal have to be removed to hone the blade anyway?

I do not see how a very small hollow in the bevel hurts? If we have two metals the bottom edge being harder and the top being softer on a level surface, like someone mentioned above, the softer metal will be removed faster slowly decreasing the blades bevel angle. Some degree of rocking seems inevitable if we are hand working the edge. That rocking would seem to have to create a convex surface that complicates and slows sharpening further. If we have a top and bottom "edge" (created by some small degree of hollow), it would seem simple to rest the edge on both, then raise the back bevel slightly off the stone, assuring us that we are honing at the correct angle.

It seems to me that the micro bevel created by honing, largely on the hard hollow line along the hard steel, would do more to reinforce the edge than make it thinner and more apt to break.

I must be missing something?

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike, the soft iron area is fairly large, while the hard steel is fairly small, I would guess about 80/20. If you are to grind a hollow and your then finishing the blade you will likely grind away the narrow section of soft iron rapidly, decreasing the sharpening angle. What I expect will occur is a rounded edge on the hard steel because your angle will be decreasing so rapidly.

Hollow grinding is almost never done on Japanese chisels, and I suspect there are very good reasons for that, including the fact that some of them advertise tempering at as low as 100 degrees celsius.

[Derek Cohen]

I have hollow ground (on a Tormek) my Koyamaichi dovetail chisels for at least a decade, and not noticed any negative side effects. These chisels are used with a gennou into hard wood. The reason for hollow grinding is the subsequent speed in honing. By contrast, I continue to hone the full face of my Kiyohisa slicks - just because it is traditional. David Charlesworth is another who hollow grinds Japanese laminated blades.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Mike is considering makers such as Konobu, Kikuhiromaru and other makers who use high carbon steel and temper it at a low enough temperature that it is very hard.

Just for fun, explain to So-San that you are considering hollow grinding your Kiyohisas and see what kind of response you receive :D

[Mike Holbrook]

I think the difference in my thinking is that I do not believe anything is perfectly: flat, level, straight. The surface or line either sags or bulges somewhere. Knowing this I try to err in the direction that holds the greater benefit. If a convex bevel is a problem then some degree of "hollow" would seem to make sense. Unless there is some reason a convex bevel is better?

Maybe the real problem is the assumption that "grinding" will cause heat, which might not be the case with certain water grinders, like Derek's Tormek or careful use of a CBN wheel at slow grinding speeds.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you are considering using natural stones then you will want the jigane to help build a good slurry.

[Derek Cohen]

Mike is considering makers such as Konobu, Kikuhiromaru and other makers who use high carbon steel and temper it at a low enough temperature that it is very hard.

Just for fun, explain to So-San that you are considering hollow grinding your Kiyohisas and see what kind of response you receive :D

Hi Brian

As much as I respect and appreciate good tools, they are still tools. And I set them up in a way that works for me. Chopping dovetail waste requires careful work, but
it is still akin to using a jack plane. Chisels get set up to maximise speed of sharp. The Koyamaichi do not object to the Tormek (I would not do this on CBN which, although cooler than all else, is still too warm for my liking on laminated edges). By contrast, paring is a more delicate task, and I delight in the sensitivity of the touch with my Koyohisa slicks. I enjoy the extra time needed to prepare them traditionally. There is also time to appreciate the extra care taken with the lamination when it is bright. Nothing for So to criticise, and I doubt that Stu would object either.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Just to confirm that I have hollow ground all my Japanese chisels, on a Tormek, for the last 30 years.

This is combined with my use of Eclipse guide and 3 bevels.

For instance, chopping chisel, grind 27 degrees, get wire edge at 33 degrees polish 35 degrees.

This is quick and easy and I don't remember a single failure (large chip).

I'm sure the tradition and attendant skill produce an excellent result, but it is not for me.

David Charlesworth

[Brian Holcombe]

All Joking around aside. Kikuhiromaru, Konobu, and similar are not the chisels to advise removing material behind the edge beyond that of what the maker/sellers recommend.

[Derek Cohen]

All Joking around aside. Kikuhiromaru, Konobu, and similar are not the chisels to advise removing material behind the edge beyond that of what the maker/sellers recommend.

According to Odate, the reasons for the soft lamination are:

1. support for the thin, brittle cutting layer
2. shock absorption and reducing vibration

This is probably true - he knows a little bit more than I - however, in practice, I have not experienced issues by hollow grinding either Koyamaichi or Iyoroi bench chisels, which I have owned and used for 10 and 15 years, respectively. They have not chipped - ever - and they get pounded into very hard wood. I have not noticed any issues with vibration. I have not noticed any difference when I compare hollowed and non-hollowed alongside one another. As I pointed out earlier, I would not do this to my Koyohisa slicks, however this is more an aesthetic reason than for practical purposes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Holbrook]

I should say, personally to date, all of my chisels have been sharpened via conventional water stones. I restored a 15mm Japanese mortise chisel a ways back, which had a chip out of a corner. I did the work on a DMT Dia-Flat, very coarse, diamond plate. Still I worked on it for quite a long time over two days. Although I got the job done I'm not sure I want to go through that process again. The easy answer being not to buy used Japanese chisels with chunks out of the edge.

Reading Odate on sharpening, he seems to suggest that there is the occasional update to Japanese sharpening traditions. Man made stones for example may now be considered for coarse and medium work. The point to me isn't exactly what is appropriate to use, but acknowledgement of the evolution of making stones etc. for sharpening.

There is the Tormek 10 " wheel which makes a small hollow. There is also a Makita and other water wheels which use the side not the edge of a submerged stone. There are also CBN wheels of various types. Certainly CBN wheels run much cooler than most other types of stone. The way I use my CBN wheel the steel temperature does not get more than warm. I keep a finger or two close to the edge and back off if I feel the steel getting warm. Even if a sharpener grinds a small hollow into his blade, I see no reason all or most of it can't be remove while honing.

My point isn't to fan flames of dispute but to actually understand the principals behind more traditional methods that have stood the test of time. If the issue is the shape of the hollow itself. It seems logical to me that some lesser degree of hollow might not present a problem? In the case of the heat issue, is a warm surface really a concern? I am not claiming to have discovered a "better" way. I am just trying to figure out if the objections to hollow grinding have to do with amounts of hollow/heat or other factors I have not thought of? It seems to me that the more I know about the reasons for sharpening methods the better I will be at sharpening. The principals behind the methods would seem to me to be more important than the methods themselves.

[Reinis Kanders]

Worksharp with diamong plate works well with japanese chisels to get the chipped part ground off.
I bought a cheap, 5/8 chu-tataki chisel and hand to regrind it on worksharp. Afterwards I was able to whack it with 3lb hammer without any chipping when making a box for a bench stone in a poplar. I did that for experimentation, at the end, 30 oz wood is good mallet was way more pleasant to use.

[Mike Holbrook]

Reinis, never having had the opportunity to use a Worksharp, I am wondering how much heat they produce?

I usually reserve my 4lb hammer/sledge for driving wedges in smaller logs. Once I get a handle on my 450g gennou I plan to use it for my 5/8/15mm chutataki, at least until I build up enough strength to use a 650 like Brian.

[David Wong]

I sometimes use diamond lapidary discs on a workshop to grind out large chips or change a bevel on my japanese chisels and blades. On a chisel, I might pulse it against the disc 5 or 10 times, then dip it in cold water. The chisel will not be finger burning hot, but it will be hot to the touch. I do not use the workshop often, because the diamond disc leaves very deep scratches, which take a long time to deal with on waterstones. My preferred method is to use 80 grit sandpaper on a granite plate. Even then, I have to be mindful of the temperature and frequently dip the blade in cold water.

[Reinis Kanders]

Those diamond disks are about order of magnitude better than sandpaper disks at not heating up the chisel. I go for about 5-10 seconds, but do not bother with dipping in water, maybe I should, but it has not been a problem. Scratches can be pretty big, so I sometimes go back to 400 sandpaper. I do not have to use worksharp often, but it is a nice option, especially with the foot switch.

Is there a temperature one should not exceed for these Japanese chisels?

[Mike Holbrook]

Interesting, I use a similar grind pattern, for plane blades, on my CBN wheel. I put a corner in the middle, moving across the entire side and then back all the way across. Then I check progress or after a few seconds repeat the pattern. I make adjustments depending on how the bevel develops. I usually do not have to adjust very much.

I keep a finger or two very close to the edge to hold the blade against the wheel and to feel any sign of heat developing. I use light pressure only as pressing hard, regardless of the grinding surface, produces heat fast. I suspect it takes me 5-10 seconds to complete the back & forth pattern. If I feel any heat in the blade I give it a short rest of 3-5 seconds while I check the bevels progress. The blade never seems to get much more than warm.