Youth size face shield?

[Peter Dougenik]

Greetings All,

Long time lurker/infrequent participant here. Turning is one of my many hobbies and I've been getting a bit more back into it these days, partially because of the reason for this post. Last weekend my 10yo went to a friends house and my wife was out shopping which left my 8yo and me home alone. I asked her what she wanted to do and her response was "I dunno, can I maybe make a bowl in your shop?". :D

This isn't her first time at the lathe, she and her brother teamed up to make their mom a pen for Christmas and she also turned a Harry Potter style wand, but this was the most time spent on a project. It was also the first time the piece of wood was big enough to cause me concern even if it was just a 5" square piece of 8/4 black walnut. I always use my AirShield when I turn and the only other shield I have is a generic home depot one so that's what she wore for the project, but I'm not happy with either the fit or the protection level. I've been looking around the web and can't find anything made specifically for smaller heads, does anyone have experience with youth turners that can lend input? If I can find something close I can modify the headband to tweak the fit.

Thanks,
Peter

[Geoff Whaling]

Peter,
Face shields in youth sizes for sports - yes. Hobbies like wood turning - not to my knowledge.

I have a very keen interest in wood turning safety and have done quite a bit of research, reviewing standards, manufacturers literature etc. To the best of my knowledge there are not face shields / brow guards to suit our applications specifically manufactured in sizes to fit smaller persons / children. Legislation and regulatory standards are primarily written for work places and don't recognize smaller persons or children in the work force or in jobs / occupations / hobbies that may expose them to hazards.

Most of the standards such as AS-NZS-1337 are written around "standard anatomical head" dimensions & "typical dimensions of medium-sized and small sized standard anatomical heads are given." The standards define areas of coverage (of the face), lateral protection etc and use terms such as "A positive adjustable means of support shall be provided to ensure and maintain the fitting of the goggle to the face and in front of the eyes."

Almost all of the face shields I have seen or reviewed are multi fit designs which rely upon the headband adjustment for sizing. Some designs may be lighter for children to wear so more comfortable & practical and therefore would be used and not actually introduce another hazard of a poorly fitting and thus moving face shield.

Personally I feel a lightweight low / medium impact protection face shield would be suitable for 8 - 12 yo's being closely supervised on the lathe as the projects they would be attempting should not present any significant impact hazards. The supervising turner should be closely inspecting stock material and being thorough with blank mounting etc and the type of projects restricted to reduce hazards / risk. The most significant hazard would be protecting the face & eyes from the stream of debris off the tool which a lightweight low / medium impact protection face shield will do satisfactorily.

[Paul Williams]

I found goggles and safety glasses for my grandsons at Gander Mountain in the rifle/shotgun area.

[John K Jordan]

That's a big problem. We usually stick to spindle turning and use safety glasses for those too small for the face shields. I've thought about modifying a face shield but haven't done it yet. Sometimes I will pad the face shield headband for smaller kids. In this case we were making a rolling pin, a bigger piece of wood than usual.

335379

I will check out the Gander mountain idea for goggles. I wonder if anyone makes paintball shields in smaller sizes.

This might be a good opportunity for a bunch of people to write to Uvex and tell them about a potential new market segment.

JKJ

[Rich Sabulsky]

Check out the Jackson V90 - My 13 yr old son wears it comfortably. http://www.amazon.com/Jackson-Safety-Shield-Protection-Goggle/dp/B00JQ7PBAW

[Peter Dougenik]

Good info, thanks guys. I'll have to check out that Jackson one, how strong is the faceshield portion? One of my other hobbies is competitive shooting and my kids have a little business selling refreshments at my clubs home matches so she has a good set of youth safety glasses. I thought about using those but wanted something with an actual face shield just in case. The paintball mask is an interesting idea as well.

As for the turning itself - I'm kicking myself for getting rid of my midi lathe when the big mustard arrived a lot of years ago, she has to stand on a stool to work. She held the round cutter EasyWoodTools in both hands and I stood over her with one hand keeping the bar firmly pressed onto the toolrest and the other on the very end of the handle in case of a catch. For the most part she guided the tool to get the shape she wanted and got good at controlling how much material she was removing etc. She's not ready to use a real gouge yet but I showed her a few and explained how they work. The only part she didn't get to do was cutting the recess for the chuck and then the friction polish and buffing. I found out when I got home from work Monday that she had brought it to school to show her teacher, we're both very proud ;)

Just before turning it around and getting it onto the chuck:
http://dougenikphoto.com/images/woodworking/E_Lathe_1.jpg

The finished product:
http://dougenikphoto.com/images/woodworking/E_Lathe_2.jpg

[Scott Cenicola]

That's awesome! I picked this up for my son
http://www.harborfreight.com/face-shield-with-flip-up-visor-96542.html

It's light, easily adjustable and seems to be good basic protection

[John K Jordan]

What a wonderful day that must have been! You never know how a child will be changed by the experiences (and the quality time!)

I have had many kids here, from 5 years old and up. For the littlest, I turn and they color with markers while the wood turns slowly - they love it and can't wait to show everyone what they made! For 8-10 years old I rough, they mark, we both hold the tool as you did for some cuts, then I shape and finish cut and they help sand and rub on oil or beeswax. Kids get as much fun out of helping with the design as making chips - how long, where should be make burn lines, how about some texturing?

Older kids 14 or so and up (depending on their coordination and concentration) get some introduction, get to rough out the wood, and then learn something about the skew. After the roughing gouge and skew I introduce the spindle gouge and they "play" at length making beads and coves. So far, only the oldest have gotten to the bowl-making after a lesson or two.

I generally start with a soft pine or eastern red cedar. The cedar is nicer because of the smell and because it cuts more cleanly.

For a class we did a few months ago for ages 6-16 they turned yellow poplar and cherry and made something to take in 3 one-hour lessons. Each child made a pen as well, with blanks pre-drilled and glued and ready to turn on the mandrel.

I sympathize with the regret about not keeping the second lathe. I have the opposite problem, with five wood lathes for now. I just can't make myself get rid of one 'cause "what if I need it?", "what if one breaks?" At the moment, four are crammed into my shop for a class we are trying to schedule.

JKJ

[Michael Schneider]

You might take a look at this one, it is a little more compact than most and has a very good adjustment system for smaller heads.


http://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S8510-Polycarbonate-Anti-Fog-Hardcoat/dp/B001VY3ACE?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

[Rich Sabulsky]

The difference between the Jackson shield and a paintball mask is the thickness and rigidity. A paintball mask is designed to take the impact from paintballs, and is fairly thin and flexible to keep it as light as possible. The V90 is thicker and does not flex. It will spread out the force of most any turning impact to reduce injury. The biggest drawback is that there is nothing above your eyebrows, where most face shields include a bit of plastic above the shield as well.

[Geoff Whaling]

The bit of plastic above the eyebrows is the brow guard component of a face shield, it and the harness system play a very important role as a safety device for wood turners to assist in reducing the impact or dissipating the energy from larger flying objects. Most paintball masks fall into the classification of a wide-vision goggle in the Australian & International Standards for eye & face protection and are tested to a different standard of protection (ASTM Standard F1776) rather than ANSI Z87.1 or AS/NZS 1337.

Paintball masks are designed for a specific task with a known projectile mass & range of permitted velocities. Wood turning hazards are quite different and cover a wide range of hazard types, from very fine dusts; small mass ( fractions of an ounce / gram) high velocity particles; medium mass & velocity through to quite high mass (several kilograms / pounds) objects which can also have quite high velocity if turners like living on the edge; the tool itself and or parts of a work holding system i.e. chuck jaws, glue blocks etc.

None of the popular face shields used by wood turners will totally prevent injury from high mass high velocity objects BUT they will deflect and dissipate energy reducing the severity of potential injury. That is their function to reduce injury. However face shields and safety goggles / spectacles perform a vital role for eye protection by intervening in the path of the hazardous object to the eye. They are one of the only viable / practical solutions for hand wood turners as all other systems of engineered screens etc present a range of practical impediments.

In safety analysis the primary tools to manage hazards use eliminate, substitute, isolate, engineer, administration, and protective safety equipment protocols. It is far better to eliminate a hazard or to substitute it with one that presents lower risk i.e. reduce the lathe speed, than to try and out engineer it with ballistic rated riot safety gear.

As we are talking about suitable small sized face shields for children / youth I would suggest that the hazard / risk model for larger flying objects is not appropriate as children / youth should not be attempting projects presenting high risk levels.

The primary hazard from child / youth friendly projects is small to medium flying particles causing eye damage. Almost any ANSI Z87.1 or AS/NZS 1337 standards compliant face shield, goggle or close fitting spectacle will provide that level of protection. The significant hazards / issues are the fit required on a small head to reduce the risk of deflected particles entering the eye; and the face shield itself presenting a hazard because it is poorly fitted or cumbersome to a smaller person. The best option would be to seek advice from specialist safety equipment suppliers and not your local box store.

btw most noted safety authorities recommend wearing safety spectacles & a face shield to offer complete eye protection.

[Geoff Whaling]

That's awesome! I picked this up for my son
http://www.harborfreight.com/face-shield-with-flip-up-visor-96542.html

It's light, easily adjustable and seems to be good basic protection

Sorry to sound negative but it is pretty much useless for total eye protection in wood turning applications. Lacking a brow guard it allows flying particles to enter over the face shied - and it doesn't appear to be certified to any recognized standard. "ANSI Certified" what does that mean - to what standard was it certified and at what protection level - a splash shield? I know that I would not be relying upon it as a "Nonconductive face shield for sanding, grinding and polishing."

[Geoff Whaling]

You might take a look at this one, it is a little more compact than most and has a very good adjustment system for smaller heads.


http://www.amazon.com/Uvex-S8510-Polycarbonate-Anti-Fog-Hardcoat/dp/B001VY3ACE?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage

Excellent choice for wood turners = http://www.honeywellsafety.com/Products/Eye_and_Face_Protection/Uvex_Bionic.aspx?site=/americas

"Meets ANSI Z87+ (High Impact) and certified to the requirements of CSA Z94.3 standards"

[Peter Dougenik]

Very thorough Geoff, thanks!

I think I'll order a Uvex and a Jackson to try out, they're both available on Amazon Prime so I'll be able to return either or both if I don't like them. She was noticeably disappointed when I didn't grab a big 14" maple blank like she's seen me working with and I had to explain that it's not safe for her to be working with a chunk of wood that weighs almost as much as she does regardless of what face shield she has on! I rounded the piece of walnut on the bandsaw and used a faceplate for the shaping, didn't want to chance it coming off a woodworm. We kept the speeds down as well.

[John K Jordan]

I think I'll order a Uvex

I recently bought two of the Uvex face shields but have not had a child here in the last week to test. It does appear to adjust to smaller head sizes.

I notice Amazon carries two models, one about $15 cheaper than the other. I bought two of the more expensive models. From the description, the cheaper one indicates "dual position choices" while the other mentions "highly adjustable" head piece. Also, the more expensive one claims an anti-fog/hardcoat lens. I'm tempted to order one of the cheaper ones just to compare. I have a small class soon and not enough face shields.

Does anyone have experience with both models side-by-side? (S8510 and S8500)

JKJ

[Geoff Whaling]

Does anyone have experience with both models side-by-side? (S8510 and S8500) JKJ


John, they are identical - only difference is the anti-fog hard coating http://www.honeywellsafety.com/Products/Eye_and_Face_Protection/Uvex_Bionic.aspx?site=/americas

[Robert Willing]

I recently bought two of the Uvex face shields but have not had a child here in the last week to test. It does appear to adjust to smaller head sizes.

I notice Amazon carries two models, one about $15 cheaper than the other. I bought two of the more expensive models. From the description, the cheaper one indicates "dual position choices" while the other mentions "highly adjustable" head piece. Also, the more expensive one claims an anti-fog/hardcoat lens. I'm tempted to order one of the cheaper ones just to compare. I have a small class soon and not enough face shields.

Does anyone have experience with both models side-by-side? (S8510 and S8500)

JKJ

John these are great shields I have the dents and dings to prove it after a large piece of bark came loose. The bark actually left a large mark on the shield out side of the face shield, I also have a ding on the face shield from some other object, don't remember what it was, but sure glad I had the shield.

[Peter Dougenik]

Just a quick update to let everyone know that the Uvex shield did the trick. The headband cinches down enough to provide a stable fit on my daughters head and she was comfortable for an entire turning session yesterday. I've worn it a few times when I didn't need the full Trend and found it to be very comfortable with excellent visibility. Thanks for all the suggestions!

P.S. Turning resin blanks stinks....literally and figuratively. she bought it with her own money at woodcraft though so I took one for the team and helped her turn it :p

http://dougenikphoto.com/images/woodworking/Emily_resin_pen_1.jpg

http://dougenikphoto.com/images/woodworking/Emily_resin_pen_2.jpg

[Geoff Whaling]

Peter, looks like you have one very happy daughter! Good to see the Uvex Bionic face shield worked well.

It would be a nice gesture for Uvex or another manufacturer to produce a scaled down version for youth and smaller adults but sadly our economy is all about volume & profit and not the common good so I won't hold my breath waiting. Manufacturing is geared to the "standard body form" and the anthropometric (measurement of the human individual) ranges of sizes. If your body size / shape just happens to be outside of those ranges bad luck! Perhaps the best way is to approach the standards people to have a ratio of face shield size / weight to body proportion introduced into the standards then to put pressure on the manufacturers to produce them.

I have a retired woodturning mentor whose spouse is a tiny sub 5' and very petite. She constantly struggles with face shields but perserveres with them because her nursing career has imprinted upon her the benefits of eye and face protection.

[Len Mullin]

Have any of you ever thought of using a hockey helmet for this purpose? I've used them for the kids safety, when turning or grinding things. The ones I use are the ones with the plastic face shield, they offer the best protection. The helmets and shields aren't all that heavy, and the kids don't seem to mind wearing them. I don't know what the safety ratings for these are, but, I do know it's better to use them, then it is to use nothing.
Len