One for the cabinet guys...

[Mike Jungers]

Hello all,

I'm looking for some advice as I'm planning a shift in my business focus, and after lurking for the past few months I know there are some very helpful professionals here who's opinion I'd like. Thanks in advance, and now a little about me: I'm going on fifteen years as a contractor in St. Louis, doing mainly remodels in what I call the executive level market, and have built a steady client base through only word of mouth referrals. What's kept me busy is that each project gets something custom, usually built-ins or some cabinetry my clients can't get off the shelf. I've slowly been shifting to subbing out things like hanging drywall and laying hardwood to free me up to focus on the one-off parts of the project and so far it's working well. Here's my problem: I'm working with consumer level equipment. So far I've been able to get the the quality I'm after at the expense of too much time and frustration but now I've got cash flow and I'm fed up. I'm using a Jet contractor saw and jointer and a screamin' Dewalt planer. For doors I just got a PM2700 5hp shaper with a PM feeder and now I'm satisfied with rail and stile production. I moved to Festool sanding equipment years ago for on site and shop sanding. No widebelt or drum, all RO sanding of everything. I have plenty of compressor and I use CAT's gravity gun with their CRP cap, so I'm okay with my finishing equipment and routine for now.

My question is: what's my next or next few moves? What I'm after is a level of tooling that I can count on for accuracy and repeatablity, but won't break me if it sits for two weeks out of the month. Right now I can't count on the jointer and planer and find myself making extra parts in case something gets ruined. The saw does the job but I'm very clear a slider would double my productivity. I know that only RO sanding is too slow and more importantly, the inconsistency makes me work harder during finishing. I was looking at a Supermax dual drum but reading here has me thinking a small wide belt would be better.

A few things about my process: I design everything with an accurate Sketchup model, and create my cut list from it. All my lumber comes S3S at 13/16" and requires jointing or a track saw before planing and ripping for face frame and door parts. I've cut dados with a router but I prefer a dado stack on the saw. If I do get a slider I'll have to see if it's faster to keep the table saw set up for dados or put a dado on the slider.

As far as budget goes, it's looking like I can come up with about 20k for capital this year and I know I can do 10k for the next few years and still make money on the woodworking side.

Any input on equipment, strategy, or processes is appreciated.

Mike

[Erik Loza]

The slider would definitely be my next investment. That's been the most common "first step up" for all my shops. Well within your budget and a huge jump in productivity. Most of the Minimax sliders will dado but but that being said, if they have the space, most of my shops just keep the old saw set up specifically for dados. It's faster and easier. As you know, time is money. Your shaper is fine.

Erik

[eugene thomas]

What size shop you working out of. As To Tools We All Love To Help Spend YOUR money.....

[jack duren]

You don't need a lot for a small cabinet business. Slider helps but not necessary. S3S shouldn't need to be joined. I simply rip it and run it through the planer on edge for doors and face frames. You can also buy it to 1.25-4" from cabinet suppliers. Cabinets just aren't that complicated. It can be very complicated if you want it to be, but its not...

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

What about outsourcing your doors? If you're selling to a high end market, then you can afford to buy premium doors from a door manufacturer, which will free up a LOT of your time.

[Jim Becker]

Slider and J/P combo would be my choice for "big machine" upgrades. Those are the "heart" of my shop and I've really enjoyed the MiniMax quality for the money. Those two plus your existing shaper really provide great production capability. But Gerry makes a good suggestion that some things are good to hire out for. Even as a non-pro, I've purchased drawer boxes to save time on my larger projects for the house. For painted, I might sub out doors, but for natural wood, I'm personally more likely to always build them because of my anal requirements for grain and color matching.

[Mike Jungers]

Thanks fellas. I have and still will hire out for doors for the few straight ahead cabinet jobs that come my way. With the shaper up and running though I make a cut list, go out to the shop, and knock out the 2 to 10 doors and face frames I need for a project in the same day. With most of my work still requiring me to be on a job, being able to schedule shop days without lead time constraints has been a big improvement. For example, a typical master bath project will have a vanity with toekick drawers and an open shelf or magazine shelf on the toilet end, a matched medicine cabinet with blocks for sconces, and something like a matched frame for art or a full length mirror with 4" rails and stiles that match the other doors. The cabinet guys want no part of that kind of job once I show them the design so I stopped asking years ago. So, I've accidentally carved out a niche for my little shop with the bling that sells the rest of the job.

What I'm still working on though are my processes and upgrading my equipment to bring my speed up and frustration down. Right now I think my two weaknesses are getting stock prepped quickly and accurately and sanding. A better quality jointer and planer or combo I know would help with the first area. As for sanding, I have no experience with pro equipment so I'm hoping for suggestions. Of course, I don't know what I don't know, so I'm interested in any suggestions from guys that have gone through this growing phase.

Thanks again.

Mike

[Patrick Kane]

I don't do cabinet professionally, but I do have a side gig woodworking. Trust me, I would love a widebelt, but a 36" widebelt would require power that I don't have at my house, not to mention a fair amount of cash for a used one. If you can find a used performax or supermax 37x2, I would snatch it up in a heartbeat. That is what I have and it is slow compared to a widebelt, but it will take your sanding game to another level. Another thing to consider is you aren't really a production shop. You wont be doing this 8 hours a day 5-6 days a week. A good drum sander might be all you need. I bought my used supermax 37x2 for $1700 with a bunch of paper. A good used 36" widebelt is going to be more like $5-6,000. The extra $4000 can go towards grabbing a great jointer/planer.

Quality jointer/planer is paramount. If you don't have flat/square material to start a project, then you don't have much. I make solid wood surfaces on the side, btw. I am not a fulltime professional, but I do pretty well and chew through a lot of lumber.

[Frankie Hunt]

For a production shop, if budget and space allows, 2 of the small Grizzly shapers added to your Powermatic make for a nice door setup. You can set one of the Grizzly shapers up for rails, the other for stiles. Use the Powermatic for raised panels. Once the two small shapers are set up you don't have to mess with them much at all. Fast, quick and easy. Not much out of your budget either. (Both for $1200 plus shipping) Several of the shops I know have the 3 shaper setup.

A better saw would be the first upgrade. Either a slider or a cabinet saw with an appropriate out-feed table. Ive been around several cabinet shops, all had a cabinet saw(s) and none were lacking in their speed/ability. A cabinet saw sure would allow your other funds to go farther!

Anytime you have to change tooling, even if it is quick, time and setup suffers some. I would suggest the 20 inch spiral head planer from Grizzly and their 12 inch jointer with spiral head cutter. (Both for $5400 plus shipping.)(IF a 12 inch jointer is sufficient, and I would think it would be for a cabinet shop)

I don't know much about sanders.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm not a pro, but will ask a couple questions:

What do you use for joinery? Is that a bottleneck for you?

For material prep, I personally wouldn't get a J/P combo if you're trying to speed up your production; changeover and resetting can be quick and bearable but never as optimal as 2 machines, dedicated. Of course, J/P combos tend to have wider jointing capability than people would usually buy themselves, so if you're doing drawer faces > 8" you may prefer the combo.

You might consider a helical head planer. A good one will produce a surface that has minor scallops. I go straight to 220 with mine. The fine sanding never takes a long time; it's the 60-100-150 that consumes my time.

What is your finishing regimen? On any cabinet project, this tends to be 50% of my total time. Using the right finish has helped me to reduce stress and improve speed there.

[Peter Kelly]

My question is: what's my next or next few moves?I’d say developing a business plan should be your next move. Identify a target market, advertising budget, determine markups and methods for quickly estimating projects, profitability, identify competition, etc. There's a lot to consider prior to committing to long-term professional cabinetmaking.

Similar iterations of this same question has been asked on the Woodweb[dot]com forums many, many times over the years. Some great professional advice there so you might want to poke around there for a bit.

[Jeff Duncan]

There are many ways to skin a cat, what works for one shop might not work for another. So take all advice with a grain of salt.

My first thought is you should start subbing out the cabinetry as well. Use the extra $10k plus you have a year to invest in machinery and instead drop it right into a SEP account. If shops are turning down the work, find another shop. Serisouly, there are tons of shops out there and not all of them are too busy to take on work. Making a living building cabinetry is tough, the more you invest into equipment the more you need to keep it running. The more you try to keep it running the more you'll be distracted from the work that's likely paying the bills.

If your convinced this is a good move then you need to also consider a couple other things....space and power. How much do you have and how much will you need? To be really productive generally means having large industrial equipment that requires a lot of room and power. If your working out of a small shop now there's a decent chance you'll outgrow it the more you lean on the cabinetry aspect. I started out my first pro shop with about 700 sq. ft., a 60 amp single phase service and a single entry door to move product in and out. I'm now in my 3rd shop and am at 2400 sq. ft. with 2 garage doors, (one a drive in), and just paid to upgrade to a 200 amp 3 phase service.

I rely on all my equipment and I do a pretty wide variety of work. There are some types of work that would not require as much equipment, but for me flexibility is key. The table saw is probably priority number one. Next most important would likely be the widebelt sander, my shapers, then the jointer and planer, and of course dust collector to keep them all clean(ish). Then the edgebander and the Blum hinge machine, oh and if you get busy the jump saw is a recent acquisition for me that I should have done years ago! A good heavy bandsaw is also a must for my work. Re-arrange them in any order you wish, and some you may not need, at least not right away, but they're all good to have. I also have some other equipment not as necessary so I won't go through all of it. Also I'd personally avoid inexpensive Asian entry level machines if at all possible. My experience with them is they are actually very expensive and not worth what they cost for a professional shop, just my experience though and YMMV. The heavier duty industrial stuff can be a good investment however.

anyway that's it for now, good luck!
JeffD

[Martin Wasner]

Next step? You could dump money just about anywhere and it would be smart money.

You need another cheap shaper, a couple more tablesaws could be handy. Definitely a widebelt. You need something to bore hinge cups. Do you have an edge sander? How are you coping door parts?

Hunt for used stuff. I dumped $55k back into my business last year in tooling. Most of it was used stuff. If it weren't for trying to put up a new building this year I'd probably spend about that again this year, (I did sneak another SAC shaper in the other day though, I couldn't resist)

[Mike Jungers]

It's been an informative day. I had a some very good conversations with equipment salespeople working out a properly scaled equipment lineup for my needs. For my two primary bottlenecks, I'm headed towards one of the higher end jointer/planer combos and as mentioned above, a dual drum sander. Thanks Patrick, you're saying what I've heard all day about the dual drums. I looked at wide belts and for my needs the ROI would just be too long. As it's usually one or two of us in the shop, changeover on the combo won't be an issue with proper organization. I've had both the blessing and the curse of working with a small shop; it forced me to be disciplined and organized so now there's very little jumping around of processes.

I will definitely be getting a slider and now have a pretty good idea which one, but it will probably be next year after the other two purchases. My current saw is doing the job with a 52" rip fence and an 8' outfeed table. I also have a 4' x 4' table on casters for support on cross cuts. All my box material gets cut at once, followed by dados grouped by fence setting. I'll be keeping this setup after getting the slider and use it for dados or just as an assembly bench the rest of the time. I'm looking forward to cutting my frame stock against the stops on the slider and freeing up room taken by the miter saw. Lots to think about.

Frankie, I took a good look at picking up two smaller shapers but I really don't need to make that many of any one thing. For now I stack my cutters and use the DRO on the PM2700 to change from coping to sticking. For the small amount of solid panels doors I do I don't mind the changeover for panel raising. Takes about five minutes to go from one setup to the other and I rarely change over more than once on a project. Time spent getting the cut list right is time well spent IMO. I am however trying to keep my eyes open for ways of using the shaper and power feeder to either get better or faster. Accepting suggestions. :)

Thanks Prashun. My joinery is about 60/40 pocket screws to dominos depending on the situation. I use a lot of dominos in the field and have come to love that system. I literally have gotten jobs by using Festool and keeping peoples homes clean when I work. But I digress... Here's an example of an upcoming project that's more complex than most of what I build but gives an idea of what I do:

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1514/26215445741_92d63eddcb_z_d.jpg

For stuff like that I pull out every joinery trick I've got. One of the salesmen I talked to today said my needs are closer to furniture making than cabinetry. I've never thought of it that way, and I still probably won't out of respect for the real furniture makers. ;) My finishing is about half wiping stain/ sprayed precat and half brushed oil with the occasional Aqualente sprayed for non-yellowing. Sanding is still working through the grits with the Festools. I'd have to say the trickiest part of finishing for me is getting the strategy right for complicated pieces. Lots of room left on the learning curve but I'm doing OK.

Thanks Peter and I agree completely, but I'm a little further down the road now with an established remodeling business. I don't always do a good job being clear on forums because I don't want to overstate my abilities or sound like a jerk, so I'll clarify: I'm not trying to set up a cabinet shop, I just want to approach the woodworking side of my business more like an, er, business from a tooling and process perspective. Right now I spend from 10-25% of my time for a given project in the shop cutting up trees. I'm reminded regularly that this part of my business is what sells the rest of my work, and I'm going on 15 years working strictly from referrals. If I tried to go head to head with any real cabinet shop I'd get clobbered for being that far out of my wheelhouse. Hats off to those guys 'cause the earn every penny. For a new guy starting out, I'd print your suggestion and tape it to the bathroom mirror for the daily reminder.

I really appreciate the input and keep it coming. Thoughts on good quality dual drums?

Mike

[Leo Graywacz]

If you are going to get into custom cabinetry and you want to make things yourself the basic tools you should think about are a Unisaw with a large table surround it. Upgrade the fence and put a digital reader on it. Minimum of a 15" 3HP planer, minimum of a 8" jointer. 3 shapers for a door setup, cope, stick, panel. Edge sander, might not think it's important - it is. Of course various small tools, RO sander, a couple of routers, dovetail jig, battery drills/impact gun. Things you'll want but don't necessarily need would be a drill press, bandsaw and some sort of a wide sander.

[Mike Jungers]

Martin and Jeff, I posted above before reading your posts. I hope I clarified what I'm trying to do and let me say thanks for all the old posts from you guys I've been reading for the last month. I'm in the middle of pulling together my thoughts about the woodworking and cabinetry side of my business so it may sound like I'm jumping around but I'm just feeling out my options. I never wanted to set up a bonafied cabinet shop but I do want to think more like one for the stuff I build.

To be clear, I don't want my business to get any bigger than it is now, just more efficient. To your point Jeff, I have and still do sub out kitchens if everything is straightforward. I can't compete and don't want to. The problem comes when I describe to a cabinet shop something like the vanity in the pic above, and I realized years ago that by the time I get a shop drawing together and work out all the details, I could have built the vanity myself and made better money for my time. I never set out to pursue these projects, but almost every referral I get is someone who wants "something like the Brown's barn door, but can you make an aquarium stand and butler's pantry the same color?" Literally. My business would never scale up to production levels without leaving behind customers who want weird stuff built. So I laid out the ugly truth here and to some salespeople about my crappy equipment in the hope that ya'll will help me pick better equipment now, and later, tell me what I'm doing wrong with it. ;)

I've pretty much decided on a particular jointer/planer first and since a wide belt would take 25 years to pay for itself and it's dust collector, I'm looking at dual drums to help with the first half of sanding.

Thanks guys.

Mike

[Martin Wasner]

Buy used

Buy used

Buy used

Buy used

If you want to make money, buying a drum sander isn't the way to do it. A decent 36" widebelt can be had for $3k.

Don't stack cutters on a light duty shaper like the Powermatic. You'll just end up tearing up the bearings faster.

I also think you're barking up the wrong tree. You don't want more work, just to do it more efficiently? I get that, but it'd cost me over $300k to replace my equipment with new stuff. I'd have to look it up, but I'm about positive I haven't spent over $200k. BUY USED. I'm just getting to the point where I feel we're doing things well and quickly. A small shop is expensive if you want it to be efficient, but that's where you make money, but it takes a fair amount of throughput to justify that kind of expense.

[Larry Edgerton]

Your business sounds a bit like mine. I am a contractor and have a woodshop. One of the keys to me staying busy is that I design crazy stuff that most other shops can not do. Keeps all the hacks at bay. I spend more and more time in the shop and less on site. I too use custom designs to get them on the hook for the whole job, but lately I have just been doing the crazy stuff at inflated prices as I am getting too old to climb on site.

I used to have a cabinet shop, hated it. Got to the point where I either went modern production methods or get out. I got out. I take my hat off to guys like Martin that do it every day and compete with the big manufacturers, but that is not what I wanted to do. I still do some but they are very high end, more like furniture than cabinets or I don't do them.

I disagree strongly with the J/P purchase. Separates are the way to go long term, you will go there eventually so just do it now. Back your jointer up to your shaper so you can flip the power feed around for when you use the jointer. I commonly run both machines at once by myself, hard to do with a J/P. then there is that little adjustment that you will always want to make but the J/P is set up in the wrong configuration. Being able to run both at one time saves money. When I was younger I used to run the tablesaw with a feeder as well, but I am too old for that.

Have had a Drum sander and a wide belt. Miss my wide belt, never want another drum sander. I had to sell the one I had when I downsized because there is not enough power coming in to run it at my new location. I am looking for a 42", 25 hp or less single belt that I can run here used.

Buy Used!

Larry Edgerton
Crooked Tree Joinery

[Sam Murdoch]

If you are going to get into custom cabinetry and you want to make things yourself the basic tools you should think about are a Unisaw with a large table surround it. Upgrade the fence and put a digital reader on it. Minimum of a 15" 3HP planer, minimum of a 8" jointer. 3 shapers for a door setup, cope, stick, panel. Edge sander, might not think it's important - it is. Of course various small tools, RO sander, a couple of routers, dovetail jig, battery drills/impact gun. Things you'll want but don't necessarily need would be a drill press, bandsaw and some sort of a wide sander.


Your business sounds a bit like mine. I am a contractor and have a woodshop. One of the keys to me staying busy is that I design crazy stuff that most other shops can not do. Keeps all the hacks at bay. I spend more and more time in the shop and less on site. I too use custom designs to get them on the hook for the whole job, but lately I have just been doing the crazy stuff at inflated prices as I am getting too old to climb on site.

I used to have a cabinet shop, hated it. Got to the point where I either went modern production methods or get out. I got out. I take my hat off to guys like Martin that do it every day and compete with the big manufacturers, but that is not what I wanted to do. I still do some but they are very high end, more like furniture than cabinets or I don't do them.

I disagree strongly with the J/P purchase. Separates are the way to go long term, you will go there eventually so just do it now. Back your jointer up to your shaper so you can flip the power feed around for when you use the jointer. I commonly run both machines at once by myself, hard to do with a J/P. then there is that little adjustment that you will always want to make but the J/P is set up in the wrong configuration. Being able to run both at one time saves money. When I was younger I used to run the tablesaw with a feeder as well, but I am too old for that.

Have had a Drum sander and a wide belt. Miss my wide belt, never want another drum sander. I had to sell the one I had when I downsized because there is not enough power coming in to run it at my new location. I am looking for a 42", 25 hp or less single belt that I can run here used.

Buy Used!

Larry Edgerton
Crooked Tree Joinery

At this point in my life I am less of a cabinet maker and more of an installer BUT - I spend 3 months in the shop every year or more building custom cabinetry and furniture. In the past I was all custom and had the thousands of sq. ft. shop, the design staff and the crew and all the equipment - thank you very much that those days are done :D. Point is that for a guy who writes that his equipment will sit idle for 2 out of 4 weeks and who does not want to be a cabinetmaker but just do occasional one offs at client's request your shop set up needs are (to my way of thinking) more to what Leo has suggested (especially) and Larry too.

My additional takes on the subject - based on my own experience and scale of work - which sounds more like you intend:

• Table saw - As Leo suggests and use the space under for storage and possibly mount a router lift into the top so that you can use the TS fence with that too. A slider is a wonderful tool but unless you are processing lifts of plywood, IMHO, overkill.

• Sanders - Doesn't sound like you will be building soooo many doors or panels that you need anything more than the best RO finish sander you can buy. As you are already with Festool I suggest the ETS 150/3 but the Mirka Ceros are exceptional. A wide belt sander will certainly allow you to process parts, table tops, frames, doors and all but unless they have a flattening option (especially great for tops) I can't see you needing more than the RO. Most of your finishing - face frames and doors will be after they have been assembled. If your thickness planer is well tuned and the knives are sharp the remaining sanding will be minimal.

• Back to Festool - buy the track saw and build yourself a nice big 4' x 8' very flat table - knock down or a permanent fixture. You can also put this on a Harbor Freight motorcycle lift table to create a very cool and rugged multi height work, assembly table. The primary purpose for the table however is to allow you to process sheet goods with the track saw. Stack 4 or 6 sheets at a time with a 1/2" sacrificial foam panel under the cut sheet and parts away - working your way down the stack. Finish up the perfect equal dimensioned rips for multiple parts - such as adjustable shelves - on the TS.

• LOVE the band saw. A good bandsaw allows you so much freedom to prepare and process stock safely. Tapered legs, curved parts, other irregular shapes, and of course, reasawing, which is a great option when building custom details using matching grain patterns. AND these day I use mine for ripping (nearly all) lumber. I very rarely used the TS for that these days. The bandsaw makes this task so much more relaxing and safe. Even tensioned wood that is ready to explode any second on the TS seems to like going through the bandsaw.

• A good router lift AND a serious 3hp or bigger shaper with a power feeder - which you already have - will allow you plenty of capacity to process doors and custom moldings. 2 shapers is always better especially if one can be left (mostly set up) for a dedicated task. A William and Hussey is a great and small foot print shop addition for running moldings but it (and similar machines) require a different cutter knife collection than used in the shaper. They are really great for making arched flat/profiled trim and the like but unless you are doing lots of custom molding not really worth it. There are sooooo many molding companies out there - buy off the shelf.

• Finishing needs compressor and spray unit - sounds like you are OK. A good small spray booth - one corner of your shop with venting to the outdoors - is invaluable if you have the room. Dust collection becomes more important unless you can truly isolate your finishing room.

• Leads me to say - DESIGN FOR HOW YOU BUILD Use your SketchUp skills to favor your way of doing things. You can create all kinds of original work but don't go over the top with details that require you to tool up differently for each job. Doors is a good example of this - don't offer every single door profile that has been imagined. Come up with a few signature set ups that serve the purpose well. How many doors (really?) will you be building each year. You don't need 3 shapers. For those rare occasions when someone must have a true divided lite cope and stick door with custom designed spoke muntins - send your design specs. to a door shop and charge accordingly. Talk about efficient.

OK - could add much more but this is my start on the subject. Good luck. Enjoy the transition.

[Jeff Duncan]

OK so with the added information I'd say think very carefully about your purchases. I'll echo the advice to steer clear of combo machines, they'll eat up a lot of time and are just plain inefficient. When dimensioning stock it's pretty common to go back and forth between machines. Occasionally I'll even have them both running at the same time. They're much better suited to serious hobby guys than someone trying to make money IMHO. Drum sanders can get you by, but make sure you get a good one. I had the Powermatic 24" for several years before I finally upgraded and it's a good well made machine. I'm sure there are other good options as well, just make sure you get one of them. Though again, if you can find a small used wide belt....GOLD!!

Do you have three phase power at your shop? If so I highly recommend keeping an eye out for used industrial equipment. I can't recommend it strongly enough. I've followed many guys down the same path, buy a light duty shiny new machine, get frustrated with it and buy a better machine new, get frustrated with it and finally buy an industrial machine....used or new. If you can skip the mediocre machines and just go right to the industrial you'll never regret it....the other way.....well:o

Also if you find your using your equipment a lot consider upgrading your shaper. A good used industrial shaper is a fairly inexpensive purchase these days, and will be light years ahead of your Powermatic.

good luck,
JeffD

[Kevin Jenness]

For basic box cutting a good vertical panel saw will be faster and safer than a slider, though less versatile, and can do straightline cuts on lumber as well. In conjunction with a good tablesaw and outfeed table you can accomplish most tasks. (In my own small shop I get by with a slider for both solid wood and panel cutting).

Since you use a lot of pocket hole joinery a machine for that would be a good investment. The Castle machines with their 6 degree routed pocket are far better than the drill type in terms of joint shift at assembly.The manual machines (Castle TSM 11, used Porter Cable 552) are a simple alternative to the automatic ones at a slightly slower cycle time.

I agree with the recommendations on three phase power, used industrial grade machines and separate jointer and planer.

[Mike Jungers]

Great info guys and I really appreciate it. Larry I think you described what my business has become perfectly. I also had a much bigger business for a while before the Great Collapse designing and building a couple houses a year but I cannot stress enough how much happier I am getting small. I still haven't closed the door on getting better separates instead of the J/P combo. I will say that with my current jointer and planer I rarely jump back and forth. Flipping the feeder around though I hadn't thought of. More to think about.

Martin, I've read a bunch of your previous posts and first, thank you for all the info, and second, the thought of having to chase work at all to pay for equipment makes me cringe. Call it gun shy or whatever, but I lost all desire to capitalize like that again after the market collapsed. Again hats off to guys like you that go at it full bore.

I hear you guys loud and clear about used equipment. I've spent some time trying to get a feel for what's available but I'm starting at square one when it comes to pro level equipment. If there are any particular vendors of used equipment I should be looking at I would appreciate suggestions. So for now I've back tracked with at least an idea of what new equipment costs and honed in on what my needs are. The two big ones:



12" minimum jointer. I've got an 8" Jet now and it's just too small and light and the fence won't stay squared up. Seems everyone wants a barn door and right now I've got 2" x 8" x 7' blanks of laminated cherry ready to joint and I'm not looking forward to it. I can't see a need or desire to joint wider than 16".
15" minimum planer. The Dewalt is ridiculously inadequate in the shop but really shines on site. I absolutely want a DRO or mechanical thickness readout. Right now I have to sneak up on a thickness and caliper everything. What I know I don't want is another consumer level machine.


I am open to suggestions for used machines but I will say, I have no desire for refurbishing anything. I have to keep in mind that my shop time is scheduled in full day increments, and I can burn up what I saved in a deal real quick not having an experience base troubleshooting equipment. I'm mechanical and all but my desire to tinker is pretty much gone so I'm leaning towards plug-n-play. If that's available used I'm all ears.

Great list Sam! My current table saw setup is as you describe, with a router lift in the table extension and a large outfeed table/assembly bench with storage under. I have both track saws and they shine for specific tasks but I really dislike using them in the shop for sheet goods. Your idea however about the motorcycle lift has me rethinking that since it's mainly the awkward cutting height on the bench top that bugs me. The slider appeals mainly because I can eliminate the miter station but my thinking may not be clear on that.

I picked up the 5" brushless Festool when it came out and that solved most of my complaints except for 'time spent sanding'. That and with the two people that I bring into the shop to help me I get worried about inconsistency when I have them sand. Looks like time to develop another Way We Do Things Here and have another Training Session. :) Would a drum or small widebelt really make that much of a difference, and if so, any suggestion on what to look at?

I do also LOVE the bandsaw. I build boats and I snuck an 18" Grizzly in the tool budget last year just for that. I have come to rely on it for the rare time I rip large stock but mainly it's a curve cutter.

Jeff, thanks for the input. The main reason for this thread is I'm not interested in under buying and I'm unfamiliar with pro level equipment. I hear you about the shaper; I needed one quickly for a job and it's already made me enough that I could resell it and be money up. I'll give it a year and re-evaluate.

Please keep the suggestions coming, gents. It's been strangely exciting to have a new area to dig into and learn about, as the rest of my business can get kind of boring sometimes.

Mike

[Mike Jungers]

Oh yeah, three phase. I have 100 amps single phase, but I carry an electrical license and a rotary or phase perfect would be fine as long as it makes sense financially. What I will say though is that for the scale of work that I do I won't need a ten horse anything, except maybe a sander, and I'm not interested in scaling up.

Mike

[Martin Wasner]

. What I will say though is that for the scale of work that I do I won't need a ten horse anything, except maybe a sander, and I'm not interested in scaling up.

I used to say stuff like that too. Yet this whole thread is about you wanting to step up to better equipment?

Do you want to make money or screw around? In cabinetry is it's all about the equipment. The less efficient you are the more hours you're going to waste. I don't care how good you are, it remains true.

I'd also look into something better than sketch up. Cabinet Vision is very common around here. There's a handful of other options that are cheaper that work pretty well too Mozaik, KCD, Cabinetpro, etc. I use Cabnetware, which is now the same thing as Cabinet Vision. I tried out Mozaik since I really liked the subscription plans, but I just couldn't manipulate it quickly. I'm too accustomed to what I've already got. It made some really nice drawings though. It used sketch up to produce the renderings which I though was funny.

[Martin Wasner]

With a good drawing, you only need cut lists for doors and drawers. The rest you can figure on the fly from the print.

[johnny means]

Here is your problem. "What I'm after is a level of tooling that I can count on for accuracy and repeatablity, but won't break me if it sits for two weeks out of the month."

[jack duren]

I have Cabinet Vision solids but don't have the key anymore. I use Ecabinets now. Cabinet Vision isn't cheap. I'm reloading Ecabinets this weekend on another computer as mine is too old.

Guy at work states he has Cabinet vision without a key. Must be a hack, don't know..

I can layout by hand pretty quickly, but the cabinet programs will help sell a job...

[Jim Becker]

Mike, be sure to have a chat with your tax accountant since as a business you may have available incentives for your equipment purchases that we hobbyists don't have available.

[jack duren]

I used to say stuff like that too. Yet this whole thread is about you wanting to step up to better equipment?

Do you want to make money or screw around? In cabinetry is it's all about the equipment. The less efficient you are the more hours you're going to waste. I don't care how good you are, it remains true.

I'd also look into something better than sketch up. Cabinet Vision is very common around here. There's a handful of other options that are cheaper that work pretty well too Mozaik, KCD, Cabinetpro, etc. I use Cabnetware, which is now the same thing as Cabinet Vision. I tried out Mozaik since I really liked the subscription plans, but I just couldn't manipulate it quickly. I'm too accustomed to what I've already got. It made some really nice drawings though. It used sketch up to produce the renderings which I though was funny.

It's not always about the equipment. It's about how smart you are with it. He's only talking about part time. Here and there...

[jack duren]

Mike, be sure to have a chat with your tax accountant since as a business you may have available incentives for your equipment purchases that we hobbyists don't have available.

He would be able to write a percentage per year on his equipment,etc purchases. A percentage on garage and office space in the home if he isn't already doing so...

[jack duren]

Hello all,

I'm looking for some advice as I'm planning a shift in my business focus, and after lurking for the past few months I know there are some very helpful professionals here who's opinion I'd like. Thanks in advance, and now a little about me: I'm going on fifteen years as a contractor in St. Louis, doing mainly remodels in what I call the executive level market, and have built a steady client base through only word of mouth referrals. What's kept me busy is that each project gets something custom, usually built-ins or some cabinetry my clients can't get off the shelf. I've slowly been shifting to subbing out things like hanging drywall and laying hardwood to free me up to focus on the one-off parts of the project and so far it's working well. Here's my problem: I'm working with consumer level equipment. So far I've been able to get the the quality I'm after at the expense of too much time and frustration but now I've got cash flow and I'm fed up. I'm using a Jet contractor saw and jointer and a screamin' Dewalt planer. For doors I just got a PM2700 5hp shaper with a PM feeder and now I'm satisfied with rail and stile production. I moved to Festool sanding equipment years ago for on site and shop sanding. No widebelt or drum, all RO sanding of everything. I have plenty of compressor and I use CAT's gravity gun with their CRP cap, so I'm okay with my finishing equipment and routine for now.

My question is: what's my next or next few moves? What I'm after is a level of tooling that I can count on for accuracy and repeatablity, but won't break me if it sits for two weeks out of the month. Right now I can't count on the jointer and planer and find myself making extra parts in case something gets ruined. The saw does the job but I'm very clear a slider would double my productivity. I know that only RO sanding is too slow and more importantly, the inconsistency makes me work harder during finishing. I was looking at a Supermax dual drum but reading here has me thinking a small wide belt would be better.

A few things about my process: I design everything with an accurate Sketchup model, and create my cut list from it. All my lumber comes S3S at 13/16" and requires jointing or a track saw before planing and ripping for face frame and door parts. I've cut dados with a router but I prefer a dado stack on the saw. If I do get a slider I'll have to see if it's faster to keep the table saw set up for dados or put a dado on the slider.

As far as budget goes, it's looking like I can come up with about 20k for capital this year and I know I can do 10k for the next few years and still make money on the woodworking side.

Any input on equipment, strategy, or processes is appreciated.

Mike

When your ready to talk send me a private message and I'll give you my phone number. I was always a cabinet/commercial cabinet make but remodeled as well. I think I get where your going and might can help...

[Mike Jungers]

Hi guys. More good stuff here and I really appreciate it.

Martin, my experience on the remodeling side is just as you describe it: stop screwing around, capitalize, and get smart about it and that's worked for 18 years now. I refuse to have myself or one of my guys work like mad because I didn't make good decisions or spend the money for the right tools. It's in regards to the woodworking side where I'm out of my element as to where the smart money is. For a guy who didn't come up through the cabinetry industry, I want to let this side of my business develop slowly so I don't promise something I can't deliver. So far that hasn't happened, and the unusual stuff I build for customers gives me margins about like the remodeling does. That's exciting because I'm working on inferior equipment that slows me down so there's lots of room for improvement.

Without a doubt if I wanted to compete with a dedicated cabinet shop I would need a dedicated cabinet program. I'm using Sketchup Pro with a bunch of scripts now after leaving ten years of AutoCad and Revit in disgust. They didn't scale down well enough for my projects and the buy-in got to be ridiculous. I have open right now at my desk designs for a huge raised bed garden, a 1000 sf addition to a farmhouse, and cabinets for a dry bar and for my needs, Sketchup is the only program flexible enough to not frustrate me. For the rare straight up cabinet job, I'll just do a flat design to double check my numbers if the customer doesn't need a rendering.

Yep, I use Quickbooks and have a CPA look over everything before I make any big moves. People do look at me funny around this time of year when I complain about making too much money! ;) In all seriousness though, that's great advice and for a new guy I would drive the point home to get their books straight and keep them that way.

A few points to make and then I'll re-ask my original question. First, the woodworking that I do is very deliberately designed by me to give my customers something as unique and personal as I can make it. It is specifically that approach that allows me to charge a premium price. Doing so, even with crappy equipment, has been all black ink and invaluable for building a reputation. Most of all though it has been fun and kept me interested in a business that lost all it's romance years ago. To not mince words, I can spend up to 10k to upgrade with just the work I have on the books through August and still have the woodworking side break even. My first investments will be a jointer and planer, maaaaybeee a combo, and I only have some basic knowledge of Mini-max, Felder, and Powermatic's new equipment. As an analogy, I use a Kapex and I love it, not a $79 Ryobi or a 3000 pound 1927 16" cut off saw from a shipyard. No doubt there's more to look at to make an educated decision, and I'd rather claim to be clueless here than overstate my position and miss an opportunity. Question: what can you guys suggest I look at and from whom?

Jack, that's a generous offer and I will take you up on it in the near future. Thank you.


Mike

[jack duren]

A bar someone wants for their basement finish. It's out there if you get setup and going. I will try and find someone close to this feller when he's ready...18k

[Marty Schlosser]

One of my associates went completely the other way, so rather than making any of the cabinets himself, he subbed out the entire job to a reliable local cabinet shop, installation included. Yes, I know that isn't what you're asking about, and it certainly isn't for everyone, but at the end of the day he found that by becoming what was in essence an estimator and middleman, he was able to turn a significantly higher profit for himself.

I think it all starts with determining what you want to be - or become - then do a sound business plan on the various acceptable options in selecting your way forward.

Good luck with all of this.

[Larry Edgerton]

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/489687.html

http://www.woodweb.com/exchanges/machinery/posts/489564.html

A couple of examples used. Jointers are simple machines and actually this one looks to be a pretty good deal.

I own that model SCMI planer with a Tersa head, which I highly recommend, and it has been flawless for 18 years other than the rubber boots on the jack screws. Electric table adjustment is the final answer. I switched to Carbide Tersa knives and they cut better than the M42, and the Tersa head gives me a better finish than the Byrd head I had in my other planer. Will plane birdseye with no pops. Knife changeover time is about one minute per knife, no adjustment ever.

My point is that you can buy good low mile separates for not much more than a large combo machine.

If you are doing odd stuff, a tilt shaper would be nice. I am building a booth for a restaurant now that is a bowl and I wish I had a tilt shaper for the pattern work to save a step.

[jack duren]

Do you have pictures of the piece of furniture for this restaurant?

[Jim Becker]

He would be able to write a percentage per year on his equipment,etc purchases. A percentage on garage and office space in the home if he isn't already doing so...
For some businesses, there is accelerated depreciation on production equipment available...it's important to work with a qualified tax accountant to determine what's possible. This is more than the "standard" depreciation and worth investigating.

[Joe Calhoon]

Larry and others have good advice. Buy late model used Tersa Euro machines. I used a SCM combo J/P for 20 years early in my career. After a 6" delta and 12" Belsaw the SCM was quite a jump up from that. I would agree that it would be better to go separates if you have room. The J/P worked pretty well while working by myself. You get good at planing your work flow to avoid the constant change over but are you still changing a lot. If and when you have even one employee the J/P will become a bottleneck. Down the road a small S4S machine will be your best investment for processing solid wood. Typically the smaller shops in Europe have a J/P and a small S4S machine. In this configuration the planer part of the J/P only gets used for stock wider than what the S4S will take so the change over is not such an issue.

There are 3 combo J/Ps that require no change over. They are the ultimate in this type machine, very expensive new and not likely to be found used in the US.They are well engineered and have excellent dust collection ports that require no change over.
These are a far cry above the typical Felder or MiniMax machines but expensive and difficult to acquire here. Good to know all options though.

http://www.panhans.de/pan_en/index.php/machines/planing-machines/surface-and-thickness-planing-machine-446-twinplan

http://www.hofmann-maschinen.de/en/produkte/hobeln/ad-515635/produktinfos-highlights/

Vertongen is the third maker of this type machine but they quit making the J/P so only available used in Europe. The Vertongen is popular in the UK.

These are clever machines, you only need to lift the tables if running a lot of short stock. The Hofmann is solid cast iron construction.

For the type work you do I would highly recommend a sliding table saw. Most people think they are only good for sheet stock but they are the best way to do solid wood joinery and cutting. Slower than a conventional table saw but accurate and safe.

[jack duren]

For some businesses, there is accelerated depreciation on production equipment available...it's important to work with a qualified tax accountant to determine what's possible. This is more than the "standard" depreciation and worth investigating.

That's why I do... But it's not complicated..

[jack duren]

You don't need a jointer in a cabinet shop. Nice to have but not necessary...

[Sam Murdoch]

You don't need a jointer in a cabinet shop. Nice to have but not necessary...

Man, with respect, I seriously disagree. I can't imagine building doors or face frames or a myriad of other cabinet related parts without the ability to process stock to flat and straight with a jointer.

[jack duren]

Man, with respect, I seriously disagree. I can't imagine building doors or face frames or a myriad of other cabinet related parts without the ability to process stock to flat and straight with a jointer.

You buy from cabinet supplier, rip, run through planer on edges to desired width. Many buy surfaced and edged stock.. Cabinet suppliers give no price break on non prepared wood.

You can buy panel stock to required thickness generally 5/8 0r 3/4 finished and cut away. Or as most production shops do, they cut and rip on table saw and glue up.

Kitchen cabinetry is so basic. If you ever worked in high or low end cabinet shops you'll find how simple it really is .

We have a so called custom cabinet shop in Grandview,Mo who says there a "high end" cabinet shop. Checked out their work online. There seriously keeping Adams wood products in business:o. Their just adding bought products to their products and calling themselves unique.

You would be surprised how many hobby woodworkers have more skill than a seasoned cabinet maker. The hobbyist may not be fast but can be very artistic in a simple thing as a cabinet.Jack

[Larry Edgerton]

If you ever worked in high or low end cabinet shops you'll find how simple it really is ...Jack

That's just kinda funny.....

And, I agree with Sam.

[jack duren]

Really hard to build a box with doors. I did it for 30 years, Explain it too me.

[Jim Becker]

Jack, different markets have different expectations. I also wouldn't be without a (wide) jointer for flattening stock used for doors and face frames because I'm very anal about matching grain and color. S4S is great for speed and will satisfy many needs, but not all needs. So I'm also with Sam on this...a good jointer is essential. And for me, about 98% of my jointer activity is flattening stock. I almost never do edges because with flat stock, I can rip edges perfectly perpendicular and smooth on my slider.

[Mel Fulks]

I agree with Sam. I have never seen a good job done on any material pre-dressed by the supplier. They run through straight line saw....on an angle and most of the time skim through planer on wrong side; skimming should be done on convex side,as that often helps straighten and never makes worse. I can't imagine letting them do complete milling. BUT if you find someone good ..., good!

[jack duren]

Jack, different markets have different expectations. I also wouldn't be without a (wide) jointer for flattening stock used for doors and face frames because I'm very anal about matching grain and color. S4S is great for speed and will satisfy many needs, but not all needs. So I'm also with Sam on this...a good jointer is essential. And for me, about 98% of my jointer activity is flattening stock. I almost never do edges because with flat stock, I can rip edges perfectly perpendicular and smooth on my slider.

Your talking a board here and there. We don't buy a few boards. We buy a 1000bdft at a time. If ours supplier like Liberty Hardwoods or Paxton lumber company started selling warped lumber we would reject it. For what little comes warped we pitch in the trash.

[jack duren]

Here's a few shops around Kansas city that do not use a jointer for their cabinetry. Blysone cabinets, Withrow Cabinets,Alco cabinets,Bannister Millwork,Regency Cabinets, Sni-valley Cabinets and there are more that do not use or need a jointer.

I know these shops personally...

[Sam Murdoch]

Your talking a board here and there. We don't buy a few boards. We buy a 1000bdft at a time. If ours supplier like Liberty Hardwoods or Paxton lumber company started selling warped lumber we would reject it. For what little comes warped we pitch in the trash.

None of what you have written about since posting on this thread has any relevancy to the intent of the OP, who among other considerations will be buying lumber, maybe 200 bd ft at a time and will not be investing in a 4 sided planer/molder, nor building 6' tall cabinet doors that require 5 self closing hinges and 3 catches to keep flat. He is not at all intending to set up a production cabinet shop. Your 30 years as a seasoned cabinet maker notwithstanding, the OP would be wise to invest in a good jointer.

[jack duren]

I stated that he didn't need a jointer. One argues and off we went...

I was a one man shop for years,but got caught in the crash. You still buy from your local cabinet supplier. The materials are still the same, just smaller quantities.

He's not talking about a hobby shop, his intent is to make money and fill gaps. He's on the right track. If your remodeling kitchens, finishing basements you might as well snatch some cabinetry as well.

I know a lot of guys who were trim carpenters ,etc with some woodworking skills who were looking to get out of their trade and on to something more inside.

As mentioned before. If it's in such small quantities why not buy pre-milled face,door and panel stock, Costs a bit more, but ready for use...

[Bill Neely]

Time is money so I'd narrow my focus to what I anticipate my customers will want, define the process then buy the tools that will make what they want in the most efficient manner. For instance I prefer 32mm system cabinet boxes,you can dress them up to look like anything. Sub out the most time consuming part of your process, whether that be drawer boxes, doors or drawer fronts. For frameless in house I'd be looking for an edgebander that can run 2-3mm solid wood and a line boring machine.

[Brian W Smith]

Been in the business of cabinets/furniture for almost 45 years,growing up in a family of craftsman.

I see Jack's point.We "used" to get our hdwds planed at the supplier.They were running it through 30 hp 2 sided planets cheaper than we could pay a helper to turn on our machines.

I was lucky to see the cabinet biz start to become an arms race here locally.And chose to get out of the competition.95% of those shops are gone.Along with the support industry,at least locally.So,we're forced to lose money and do our own processing now.It's a give and take deal,invest wisely where it max's your shops strengths.For us it was horizontal integration,in the form of machine shop equipment.Buying used WWing equipment,frequently broken or missing key components,for less than .20 cents on the dollar.The time just wasn't an issue.Get the machine,make the parts/repairs...get it into service.Worked very well for us.

Didn't respond on this post initially because I felt the OP,"needs" to make some mistakes.It's the acid test for what's gonna work or not work for him.

Last cabinet shop (not ours) I worked at,called him "CNC boy".He had a 16" old jointer that while very well "restored",never turned it on.Heck,never used a jointer there.90% of his work was medium to lite upper end kitchens.Enough biz to keep the doors open.Only reason I was there was for a slight change of pace from running things here.I lasted 6 months there,got bored and there wasn't enough natural sunlight (basically no windows).

[Mike Jungers]

Thanks guys. I followed the links you gave Larry and through them I finally found several good sized sellers of used equipment. Funny how none of them came up searching through google, but now I have a few places to call next week and I'm starting to get an idea what's out there. The machines in the links themselves line up perfectly with my needs now with capability to spare. They will require a phase converter but even with that expense it's about the same as buying the combo I've been looking at.

No doubt after watching a couple videos on machines with Tersa heads that they are the way to go for a user like me. The Minimax/ SCMI new stuff I've looked at a bit has them as well and I've decided that any straight knife equipment I would consider will have them. One of the promises I made to myself is that if I'm going to spend the money, I'll spend what it takes to eliminate annoyances like turning endless allen screws to get fresh edges. Speaking of annoyances, I hear you guys loud and clear about getting separates instead of the combo. I measured today and I think I can reconfigure the shop to fit separates in so that's how I'm leaning now.

As far as looking at a jointer, I could see getting by without one since I try to work around using the one I've got, but for the "barn doors" everyone is asking for it's a necessity. The Jet I have is so over matched that I arranged to use a friends powermatic next weekend to true up the blanks for the next door. Right now getting one is priority #1. For cabinet rails etc., right now I rip and edge lane everything to size and can usually avoid the jointer, but not always.

There's more to respond to and a few more questions I have, but I'm getting the evil eye so I'm calling it a night.

Thanks again.

Mike

[Mike Jungers]

Funny, I submitted a post yesterday that shows up through my profile but not on the thread. Weird. Here it is again:

Thanks guys. I followed the links you gave Larry and through them I finally found several good sized sellers of used equipment. Funny how none of them came up searching through google, but now I have a few places to call next week and I'm starting to get an idea what's out there. The machines in the links themselves line up perfectly with my needs now with capability to spare. They will require a phase converter but even with that expense it's about the same as buying the combo I've been looking at.

No doubt after watching a couple videos on machines with Tersa heads that they are the way to go for a user like me. The Minimax/ SCMI new stuff I've looked at a bit has them as well and I've decided that any straight knife equipment I would consider will have them. One of the promises I made to myself is that if I'm going to spend the money, I'll spend what it takes to eliminate annoyances like turning endless allen screws to get fresh edges. Speaking of annoyances, I hear you guys loud and clear about getting separates instead of the combo. I measured today and I think I can reconfigure the shop to fit separates in so that's how I'm leaning now.

As far as looking at a jointer, I could see getting by without one since I try to work around using the one I've got, but for the "barn doors" everyone is asking for it's a necessity. The Jet I have is so over matched that I arranged to use a friends powermatic next weekend to true up the blanks for the next door. Right now getting one is priority #1. For cabinet rails etc., right now I rip and edge plane everything to size and can usually avoid the jointer, but not always.

If for example I find a used planer without a Tersa head or a DRO, can I retrofit them on and if so any recommendations?

Mike

[Jeff Duncan]

Sounds like your on the right track!

I'll just add that I also am a huge fan of jointers. Having a well tuned jointer, or 2, really helps small shops that do custom work and one-offs. I use a 16" for most of the rough milling and have an 8" for really fine "tuning" of wood pieces. I'll often use the 8' when I need to just shave a hair off a piece, or if the edge needs to be cleaned up after going through the tablesaw. Much faster than trying to sand saw marks off anyway.

As far as the heads go you can get Tersa heads for most common planers as well as carbide insert heads. I'm not the biggest fan of either but they are all the rage these days. The Tersa heads will save you a lot of time, but cost a small fortune for replacements. The insert heads require a bit more power to drive and so aren't quite as good at deep cuts as straight knife heads. They do last a very long time before needing to rotate though and while rotating takes quite a bit of time as well, probably better than setting straight knives with a gauge. My personal favorite is my old SCM planer which I've posted about before. It runs a 4 knife head but also has an onboard grinder. A quick sharpen takes several minutes. A full knife re-set and grind takes me closer to 20 minutes or so these days. Cuts like butter, little additional costs as the knives last forever, and while old, still runs like a champ!

good luck,
JeffD

[Mike Jungers]

Hi fellas. I've contacted a couple used equipment sellers and they've given me a good idea what equipment is going for. I still haven't ruled out new equipment but now I can take a little time and weigh out the pros and cons of new versus used. In the meantime I'm getting over a glut of shop work so it looks like I can take a month or two before the next batch of woodworking is due. So unless a hot project comes up I'm looking at July-August to the trigger.

Thanks again for all the advice and I've learned a lot. I'll post when I have some contenders.


Mike

[John Sanford]

You don't need a jointer in a cabinet shop. Nice to have but not necessary...

What the OP has covered repeatedly indicates that he not really a "cabinet shop", and not interested in becoming a cabinet shop. The difference between the work he's doing and what a custom furniture maker does sounds to be this: his stuff attaches to the walls, and he uses a lot more sheet goods. That's it. He's not working exclusively with S3S and S4S sticks coming from a supplier that he's processing and hanging onto plywood boxes. He's already using an 8" jointer and finding it limiting. So whether or not a jointer is needed in a cabinet shop is irrelevant.

Moving on from that semi-rant.

Whether a J/P is appropriate really depends on the user. Professional European woodworkers have managed to earn money using them for decades. I suspect that the larger the shop, the more attractive dedicated machines become, but our OP isn't looking to become a volume production shop. Which means it really comes down to his work habits. Is he structured enough to manage his workflow to the machines, or is he more free form? Also, is he set up and prepared, both with the tools, and mentally, to just grab a handplane for three strokes rather than returning to the machine? Frankly, were I him, I'd seriously consider getting a 16" J/P, and keep the 8" jointer. Only flip the J/P into jointer mode when you need more than 8" of capacity. This would almost certainly be cheaper than getting a 16" jointer and a separate planer, but it's definitely worth it to run the numbers.

[Leo Graywacz]

I'm a cabinet shop and I couldn't live without my jointer. I don't use S4S, ever.

[jack duren]

What the OP has covered repeatedly indicates that he not really a "cabinet shop", and not interested in becoming a cabinet shop. The difference between the work he's doing and what a custom furniture maker does sounds to be this: his stuff attaches to the walls, and he uses a lot more sheet goods. That's it. He's not working exclusively with S3S and S4S sticks coming from a supplier that he's processing and hanging onto plywood boxes. He's already using an 8" jointer and finding it limiting. So whether or not a jointer is needed in a cabinet shop is irrelevant.

Moving on from that semi-rant.

Whether a J/P is appropriate really depends on the user. Professional European woodworkers have managed to earn money using them for decades. I suspect that the larger the shop, the more attractive dedicated machines become, but our OP isn't looking to become a volume production shop. Which means it really comes down to his work habits. Is he structured enough to manage his workflow to the machines, or is he more free form? Also, is he set up and prepared, both with the tools, and mentally, to just grab a handplane for three strokes rather than returning to the machine? Frankly, were I him, I'd seriously consider getting a 16" J/P, and keep the 8" jointer. Only flip the J/P into jointer mode when you need more than 8" of capacity. This would almost certainly be cheaper than getting a 16" jointer and a separate planer, but it's definitely worth it to run the numbers.

He indicated "built-in's and cabinetry". Is what it is....

[jack duren]

I'm a cabinet shop and I couldn't live without my jointer. I don't use S4S, ever.

That's a preference...

[Martin Wasner]

That's a preference...

I agree, it's cheaper for me to throw lumber away than have to deal with face jointing material.

I would still have a jointer though.

[Mike Jungers]

I suppose I should have weighed in on a few things earlier about how I do things now. I use two suppliers for hardwoods and ply, and a separate supplier for hinges, drawer slides and such. I can get sized material from the dedicated cabinet supplier but they are much further away, and I'm not usually in the shop to accept deliveries. Mainly I buy S3S at 13/16" and for me 200 board feet is a large order. For any job bigger than a couple boxes I will take a minute and make a cut list. For example, I'm finishing up a basement job with a couple cabinets, a barn door, window sills and pony wall caps, a column wrap, and a drink rail with a pool cue holder attached, all stained cherry. I've found that by far the biggest time waster is forgetting a part and not catching it until everything is cut, planed, and ready for assembly so I make the list carefully and trust it. I batch everything I can by process and will sometimes combine stock for different jobs for each step. Standard procedure is to plane to thickness, edge joint, rip to size + 1/16" or so, then edge plane multiple rips to width at the same time. That's why the thought of changing over the J/P doesn't bug me too much as I already have an organized system. I could of course skip a lot of that with sized material but my approach is usually faster than the round trip I save.

If you guys are intersted in seeing some of what I do you can see it here: http://www.houzz.com/projects/1550717 (http://www.houzz.com/projects/1550717) There's a lot of my cabinets in the pics but the pics with the wainscotting are more typical of my work. The rustic theater job is recent and was a lot of fun with skip planed cherry and all the mill marks left on. Easiest finishing job ever, I just wiped on ferrous sulfate from Walgreens dissolved in water and watched it turn grey.

I hadn't thought about keeping the 8" jointer and leaving a combo set up for planing. I'll add that to the list of possible scenarios as I'm looking at the numbers. I had been assuming it would go but I think that's just because I've been hating it so much lately with these barn door parts. Thanks John for the idea.

Mike

[jack duren]

I agree, it's cheaper for me to throw lumber away than have to deal with face jointing material.

I would still have a jointer though.

Agree 100%. I just didn't see all the focus on the jointer in a "cabinet shop". It's an accessory in a cabinet shop, not the focal point. I use one all the time but not in cabinetry there's other way to skin a cat. I, like you will pitch before I'll spend much time on a board. Then again if it's a unique piece I'm gonna "select" those boards anyway.

[Jim Becker]

You do REALLY beautiful work, Mike. Stunning, even.

Build your tool setup so it matches YOUR needs and preferences, not someone else's needs and preferences and all will be good!

[Sam Murdoch]

You do REALLY beautiful work, Mike. Stunning, even.

Build your tool setup so it matches YOUR needs and preferences, not someone else's needs and preferences and all will be good!

YUP - you aren't a pretender that's for sure. Nicely done. I completely agree ^ and repeat - design to how you build - to your capabilities and tooling.

[jack duren]

Nice work. looks like you got the basics on cabinetry. Just don't take more than you can handle. I know successful trim carpenters that started building houses,trimming,cabinetry,etc and are doing well. Hard part is excepting bigger jobs with cabinetry and getting those calls of good paying trim work that are small but pay well. Only so many days in year;)

Good luck to ya....Jack

[Martin Wasner]

I agree with Jack. Don't bite off more than you can chew. The cabinetry in the pictures is pretty straight forward. We hit a wall when the projects start requiring more than 800 man hours. My shop is small and with two guys we can't keep up with the project pace. Even with some pretty decent tooling.

[Mike Jungers]

I really appreciate the kind words since you guys surely know what good work is.

Jim, since John suggested keeping the Jet jointer and looking at a combo I keep thinking that might be the way to go. I haven't made up my mind yet with new vs. used as I think my needs are halfway between someone like Martin's and a high level hobbyist. I know you have the minimax combo and in the "pro" column there's the tersa head with different knives available,the 16" jointer capacity, a factory thickness readout, access to support and parts, and a warranty. Used equipment can get me larger capability and/or heavy duty build quality, larger motors, and if I find a real steal, a modern cutter head. Price wise the end result is not too much difference with separates requiring two shipping fees and materials for a converter and 3 phase panel with breakers. I'm still thinking on it.

Thank you Sam for stressing that I design how I build. I agree and I have been told I have a distinct style to the architectural woodworking I do. I definitely have more learning to do though so I do sometimes push myself with elements out of my wheelhouse, such as curved parts or lately, distressed finishes.

I am still having to remind myself to not bite off more than I can chew. I have two guys, one full time and one part time, and for me I've found the sweet spot to be 400-1000 hour jobs on the remodeling side, subs not included. I still have and will sub out any decent sized cabinet order though as it's a looser for me to compete with the pros. The snag I do hit most often though is scope creep and what it does to the schedule. However it's the little projects added that really add to my margins so I try to balance the pros and cons. I've never had to say it to a customer before but the old adage that they can have me build something fast, high quality, or cheap and they have to pick which two they want always winds up with them picking quality and expensive. There also is something to be said for people waiting to get me to do their work though. If they think I'm a boutique builder then who am I to talk them out of it? I should show them this thread or let them look at my Rockler level equipment! ;)

You guys are champs. Thanks again.

Mike

[Erik Loza]

Regarding the idea of a jointer/planer (obviously, I am not un-biased but what I'm about to say is true...), I sell a lot to one-man shops and one of the selling points I make is that if or when you decide to step up to separates, there is a steady demand for this machine on the used hobby market. I have guys looking for used J/P's all the time and guys who have decided to sell theirs tell me that they have no trouble finding buyers. At least for Minimax. They're single-phase, compact and usually mobile, unlike, say a stand-alone industrial 16" jointer or 16" planer. In other words, the owner has a lot greater chance of flipping a 16" jointer/planer to a hobbyist buyer if he moves on from than he does, big stand-alones. Just some food for thought.

Erik

[Warren Lake]

Now that i logged on the thread is different than what I last saw, no answers from the power to be on recently questioning that.

For the OP he answered his own question when he stated he has employees. For a one man shop its one thing, with people you are going to get held up in that one person can be on a jointer and one on the planer, combo not so. Ive had a combo for a long time and as one person no issues with it. Id be better off with a newer one with more bells and whistles at times but this has been a strong reliable machine.

335911

[jack duren]

This is the problem we face right now at work. I had to join several pieces for a custom rough oak table but was forced to wait on the joiner or take my turn. It's a bottleneck. Monday there's a sale for tooling that may get some tools for my personal area and get me away from the production and free the tools for my area up.

335912

[Leo Graywacz]

When I worked in a 12 man shop the biggest hold up was always the straight line rip saw. It was a glue quality blade and we didn't have to use the jointer usually.

[Erik Loza]

335911

Arrright!

Erik

[Mel Fulks]

I will not use a straight line saw without someone catching, I'm betting that is a major cause of the backups. Without a catcher I can do the job faster with an old time jointer that will take off an inch at one pass. Not gonna send wood away then go retrieve it, or play frisbee by myself.

[Leo Graywacz]

Ya....no.
...

[Jim Becker]

Mike, I've been very happy with my MiniMax equipment. One of the things I really like about their configurations is that they are easier to buy...there's not a lot of decisions to make about billions of options because of how they package them. That said, their competitors also offer some mighty fine machines, too. In general, if you can fine "late model used", you may get a nice deal. But Erik is correct, this class of machine does hold it's value well. So buying new doesn't hurt you too much and if your needs change, there is indeed a strong market to permit you to re-tool.

[Martin Wasner]

I've tried to add this response a couple of times now, once my phone freaked out, the other I accidentally closed the browser...


On the subject of a widebelt, I started with a drum sander. I ran it for a year or two before I got my first widebelt. It was a single head, 36" Timesavers Speedsander. For the money, it was a good machine and light years ahead of the drum sander. A total piece of junk, but a good value. I don't know if that makes sense or not. I ran that for probably seven years before I got my current unit. I currently have an Apex 42" dual head widebelt. I put a bit over 50 hours on it the first year I had it. I figure it's about four times faster than my old widebelt, not including the better scratch and less time finish sanding on the back end. The four times faster I figure from a higher feed rate, and I'm just making one pass per face, whereas with the old sander I was making three passes per face. So if it's four times faster, and we put 50 hours on it last year, that's 100 man hours. One person feeding, the other catching and stacking on the back side. Had that been my old unit, that would've been 400 hours. So 300 hours saved. If your employees are costing you $25/hr, (which is likely low), you're going to spend another $7500 just on labor. So the payback isn't as long as you'd think on a $40k machine. BUT, you're up a creek on that since you don't have the power to run it. Mine pulls 155 amps on 208V at full load. The moral of the story there is the jump from the old to the new widebelt wasn't as big as the jump from the drum sander to the first widebelt. I don't remember what I paid for that first widebelt, but I want to say it was about $5500, it was used and it pretty good shape. I sold it for $500 less than what I purchased it for. That machine owed me nothing.


Where to look for equipment? I troll Craigslist, a few auction sites like IRS and Machinerymax. A couple of local auction sites as well. Then there's dealers. Most are on one network, so you'll see the same equipment listed in multiple places. The classifieds at Woodweb is usually a good source too. Good deals show up all the time, keeping enough capital on hand for new toys is a must in my book. When I've got cash to burn I spend a bit of time probably every day looking for good dealsl

I'm never really looking for anything specific. I try to keep cash on hand, and if a good deal pops up on something I need or could use in the future, I'll buy it. Right now I've got a Whirlwind popup saw with a 12' Tigerstop sitting in storage because it was a good deal and I don't have anywhere to put it currently. A 20hp bag house sitting outside on it's side waiting for me to put up a new building. I've got a forklift sitting doing nothing since there's no room in the shop for it either. A couple of weeks ago I almost bought a Northfield #4 tablesaw that I also have nowhere to put. It was a little rough looking, but for the $550 it went for it was hard to walk away from. A couple of weeks ago I picked up another SAC shaper, it's just sitting doing nothing because I don't have enough juice left in the box to run the poor thing. Which is sad, because it's freakin' mint! I try to reinvest as much as possible.

Cabinetry is a really tough business to go into half assed. I've got $200k invested into a bit over $300k, (replacement cost), in tooling. I could blow another $200k tomorrow before lunch if that kind of money fell in my lap. I started with a tablesaw, a planer, a jointer, and a chop box. It's an uphill battle, (I'm nowhere near the top btw), to making things productive, effective, and efficient. It's baby steps, and I get that, but it's tough to make money if you're wasting time with inferior equipment.

Spend money wisely. I have a lot of cheap crap that I bought brand new that I am slowly phasing out. Things that I could've bought used and gotten a much better value for my money. I catch hell for this, (again), but the lower end green or yellow tools are just too expensive for what they are in a production environment. The more exposed to good expensive tools that I am, the more I realize what a bargain they are when you live from what they produce. But everyone has to start somewhere and I know what it's like having very limited funds to start out with.

[Mike Jungers]

Martin, your post is a gold mine for a guy like me and I appreciate you putting in the time to do so. I'll start at the end of your post and work backwards.

I agree that cheap tools are almost always more expensive in the long run. My Festool cases stand taller than the three of us combined, and with what they've made me I could buy them all again. We just had a bulk trash collection day in my neighborhood, and I pulled my old horrible Makita compound slider out from behind the garage where it was rusting and left it for the scrappers. With a grin on my face!

I spent some time over the weekend tidying up some Quickbooks stuff from finishing my taxes last week and I decided to run a few reports to look at the woodworking/ cabinetry parts of the projects I do. I could stand to be a little better with breaking out jobs costs, but I was able to get pretty solid numbers for the last two year's projects. Two things stand out; the "standard" cabinetry I build varies from breaking even to about 10%, and all the miscellaneous shelves and frames and such are huge winners. The best jobs have both cabinets and weird stuff, where I really benefit from having one finishing process for everything. My long winded point is that it's now clear that I AM half-assed into cabinetry, but it's a gateway to the really good work for a net gain. A few of my conclusions, subject to change:



I don't do the kind of volume necessary to profit from quantum leap cabinetry equipment, such as straight line rip saws and line boring rigs.
I need to make sure I stay in my lane and keep my in-house cabinetry simple and maybe sub out a little more during busy times.
The more disruptive my designs would be for a larger shop to build, the better off I do.
Continue to push my learning curve with the one-off stuff. The profits are there and it's become what I'm known for.
Look for equipment that's accurate and gives quality results, with high production capability being a minor consideration.


The budget this year looks like I can upgrade the shop equipment and also either expand the shop or replace a job trailer with a new van. If I do get to the expansion first, and have any money left, I would love to start collecting deals like you're getting. I will admit to a few times of overbuying for my needs and killing my ROI right from day one, but my shrunken account balance after making the moves I want should help keep me in check. It sure sounds like fun though and the way to go if you have an eye towards expanding!

Thank you for the info on where to look for used equipment. I've been looking at woodweb and a few local auction sites and will take a look at the others you mentioned.

I don't know diddly about drums or wide belts, so for this round of upgrades I'm focusing on a jointer and planer. There's no doubt though that it would be a huge savings to move up from 100% RO sanding like I do now. I have looked at some of the used equipment online to get familiar with brands, configurations, price and such but I couldn't tell you why two machines the same size and vintage can be $20k apart. There's a lot more learning for me to do but I can say the thought of even going through the first grit or two before switching over to RO sounds wonderful and if I can find a machine that can give decent results for under say $8k and 60 amps it would get slotted to #3 on my To Get list. That sounds like a quantum jump up that could pay for itself if I can get some years out of it, or even if it saves some aggravation. If there are any machines that are known winners and fit the bill, I'm all ears.

Thank again Martin and all you guys for the help.

Mike

[Mike Jungers]

Thanks Jim. If I go with new equipment, the minimax is on my short list. It's a very short list! I have suspected that like you said the resale value would be good if I needed to increase capacity down the road. I think it's going to come down to what's available on the used market when I'm ready to buy as I do think the value is there with the new machine.

So, how fast IS the changeover, and are there any things that you wish were different? The one thing I know I would be looking into are the Aigner table extensions, but I'll probably be looking at those anyway unless I land an aircraft carrier of a used jointer.

Mike

[Larry Edgerton]

A thought......

A precision planer with a good head will cut down on sanding immensely. I switched from a Powermatic 180 with a Byrd to the SCM with the Tersa and my sanding time was cut in half, and my joinery was much more accurate as my stock was always perfect. If I had to choose between a good planer/no sander, and a sander/marginal planer I would go with the better planer first. At the moment I do not have a wide belt, but with the finish I get off of my planer there is very little sanding, a couple of light passes is all that is required if the final pass was done at 16fpm.

Martin

You did not like the Speedsander? Just curious. There are not many sanders that I can run at my current and final location because of the power lines coming in. Single phase, and I was advised that about 25hp is the max I could get by with without paying to upgrade 1.3 miles of line, @$28k. Kinda sucks, but where I live/work is awesome!

[Joe Calhoon]

Agree with Larry. We had a straight knife SCM that required almost 1/16" removal after the knives got a little dull. This prompted our 3 head wide belt as we were doing a lot of doors, cabinets and millwork at the time. After getting our Tersa head jointer, planer, S4S and more precise joinery our removal went to 0.3 - 0.4mm about 1/64" or so each side. 0.5mm for edge glue ups These big sanders can be hard on the electric bill. A light 2 head would have worked fine and a lot less expense. If I ever get into a retirement shop a 15HP one head will do me fine.

Good idea not to be a cabinet only shop. As a small shop you don't want to compete against machines. Develop good relations with architects, designers and homeowners to promote your unique products. That will help keep you from getting hammered on price and delivery schedules.

[Larry Edgerton]

If I ever get into a retirement shop a 15HP one head will do me fine.

Good idea not to be a cabinet only shop. As a small shop you don't want to compete against machines. Develop good relations with architects, designers and homeowners to promote your unique products. That will help keep you from getting hammered on price and delivery schedules.

My shop is sort of a retirement shop Joe, but I have three ex wives so I will never totally retire.:p Couldn't anyway, not in my nature. And thanks for your thoughts on pattern heads. Appreciated.

That last paragraph I absolutely agree with. I purposely design stuff that the production shops can't do just to get rid of the low ball competition. Take the time to point out your strengths and the things that make your product better. For one example, as dovetails are so common now I carry a sample of a Pin and Cresent joint with me on presentations to offer something different. Hate doing them but it justifies a higher cost. Architects and designers use those kinds of things to sell the job, and no one else wants to do them. Round work has been a good one for me as well, because again, the production shops, and a lot of custom shops do not want to do it.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin

You did not like the Speedsander? Just curious. There are not many sanders that I can run at my current and final location because of the power lines coming in. Single phase, and I was advised that about 25hp is the max I could get by with without paying to upgrade 1.3 miles of line, @$28k. Kinda sucks, but where I live/work is awesome!

For what it is, it's a great value. But, you have to remember that it's a very lightly built machine and under powered. I wouldn't go a different route in hindsight, but it was a stepping stone for me and I knew that from the get go. I just outgrew it. You just can't ask much from a sub $10k machine new.

I too had limited juice at my original location. Even where I am currently I had to bring another 200 amp service into the building to feed the new beast. It's basically wired straight to the pole.

Another reason I'm planning on bringing in 600amps of 480v into my new shop. Running out of juice stinks.

[Martin Wasner]

I do regret not getting a three head sander. We push the abrasives pretty hard, and the operating cost is pretty ridiculous. No jokes, $.55-.65 per minute. It's still cheaper than swapping belts and making two more passes, but with a little more outlay of capital I wouldn't be hammering the belts nearly as hard.

[Jim Becker]

So, how fast IS the changeover, and are there any things that you wish were different? The one thing I know I would be looking into are the Aigner table extensions, but I'll probably be looking at those anyway unless I land an aircraft carrier of a used jointer.

Changeover for me is about...a minute...and that's with hand-cranking and taking my time. I think that sometimes folks who don't own J/P combos "overemphasize" changeover activity which really isn't long and isn't necessarily obtrusive if you 1) plan workflow and 2) use it to your advantage for pacing. Yes, it's momentarily "inconvenient" when you forget that one piece or make a mistake and have to replace a component farther on within a project workflow, but for a small pro shop or a hobbyist like me, it's of little consequence in the long run. The economy (money and space) of having both a wide jointer and thicknesser in one package isn't a horrible thing for "folks like us", IMHO.

I haven't generally felt the need for table extensions, largely because the only time something really long passes over the jointer is for skimming rough stock so I can ascertain color/grain. I typically beak material down to oversize lengths for project components and rarely is something more than five feet. But that's me. Folks who regularly need to prepare longer stock will benefit from extra support. The Aigner stuff is really nice...but also really pricy. You can (in your copious free time) construct something similar if you want to.

[thomas prusak]

If you have the room and I suspect you do, buy a separate planer and jointer. Skip the combo machines. Anything a combo machine does well, separate machines do better. I made the combo machine mistake and have regretted it ever since. I also think a small wide belt sander is much better for your purposes than a bigger drum sander.

[Mike Jungers]

Just in case anyone's interested, I thought I'd update this thread from last year to let you guys know what I've learned since my last post.

First: Once again, I'm reminded of the foolishness of thinking I can fully predict what our customers want. What had started as a demand for occasional cabinetry pieces for our remodeling jobs has flipped into people contacting us to remodel specifically because of our cabinetry. We've gone from 5-8 boxes for a bar to 18-20 boxes for small kitchens, with the largest job having 34 boxes and 52 doors, counting applied doors. I sure didn't see this demand coming and it wouldn't have been possible to meet without...

Two: Mozaik!!!! Again, Mozaik!!!! I've been a long time user of Sketchup so when I found out Mozaik is scalable, can run a CNC someday, and can display 3D in Sketchup i signed up for the three month trial and learned the program designing an upcoming job. I would recommend avoiding that scenario but a week's worth of late nights and I had a completed design. Just the material savings from optimizing paid for the software. I cannot stress what a game changer it has been. So with cut lists and optimized plywood designs in hand it was time to wring out every ounce of efficiency I could.

Three: I picked up an Incra mitre gauge that telescopes out to 40-something inches. This is no Tigerstop for sure but working from a cutlist where the pieces are arranged by decreasing length, cutting frames flat out flew. I think we cut something like 200 frame and door pieces in a couple hours with me on the saw and a helper marking and stacking the pieces. I cannot imagine a faster table saw or mitre saw based system that doesn't use automation.

Four: I went to IWF in Atlanta and got schooled. Literally, I went to two of their seminars, and spent three days asking gradually less stupid questions of the reps. I wound up buying a couple door drying racks on wheels, a SurfPrep 3 x 4 for sealer sanding, and a CAT air assist airless rig. I would have bought more tooling but my truck was broken into in a parking garage and I got cleaned out pretty good. Next time I go I'll rent a KIA.

Five: I worked out a deal with a local wood supplier to use his single head wide belt. We take all our frames and doors and play catch for a couple hours and he charges us next to nothing. I think if at all possible we will wait till we move to a shop with three phase and try to find a decent two head widebelt. Sanding is still our biggest time suck for now.

Six: I put off buying a large jointer for now, bought the big Festool track saw to go with it's little brother, and gently steer customers away from wood more than two inches thick to avoid face jointing. I won't get away with this forever but it bought us some time.

Mainly what I've learned is that I have a ton more to learn. I'm coming around to the idea that if the cabinet side of things keep growing I'm going to skip over high end manual equipment where possible and move towards CNC. What's pushing this is the now obvious realization that the skill set my carpenters have doesn't translate to the shop environment very well and I can hardly ask them to take a pay cut to help out with shop work. It's wound up being me and my cheapest helper who is quickly getting good. We can fly cutting carcass parts off the optimized print-outs, but then it's dados and shelf pin holes that drag down the pace and invite errors. I'm at square one on the CNC learning curve but I'm hoping to get to Vegas to ask more stupid questions of the CNC reps and modern fastener suppliers.

I'm hoping this year to find a finisher who doesn't mind painting or a painter who I (and my finishes rep) can train to finish cabinets. i don't have high hopes but it's worth trying. In the meantime I'm subbing out as much finishing as I can get done on schedule but that's getting harder to accomplish.

And that brings this thread up to date! I would love to hear any thoughts, suggestions, or criticisms.

Mike