Cabinet saw purchase ???

[Peter Kuhlman]

I absolutely have to purchase a new saw (at least that is what I told my wife ;) ), and need some help. I want a left tilt 3 hp saw and have an existing Incra TS III fence that I want to use on it. I don't need any more routers so the Jet promotion does not add any real value and I will build my own extension tables so that is not a deal maker/breaker either. I plan to add the Biesemeyer splitter so that lets me choose from Grizzly, Delta, Jet, General and PowerMatic. The PM is sadly out of the budget and would like to stay in the $1000-1500 max range. I have read so many favorable posts on these saws that it is hard to make a decision. With the Grizzly being the most affordable and me not using the factory supplied fence, it leads the pack in $$$.

I guess my real question is -- do you know of any promotions/deals going on with any of the prior mentioned saws? Occasionally someone has deals on Deltas but I don't know of any now. I have no local dealers here in central Louisiana so internet order is the most likely source although shipping costs can kill many deals. I have read many favorable reviews on the General but it is pricy. Amazon with their free shipping and ground level delivery is really appealing so a Jet from them is really tempting while Grizzly does not do ground delivery and you have to fight that out with the local trucking company.

I have read so many postings on various web sites and am fairly convinced that there are no major differences in the saws. With the Delta, General and PM at or over $1700, the Jet and Grizzly seem to be the choice. The Jet wins that on looks alone :p .

Enough rambling - I know there is no real wrong choice but am looking for a deal/opportunity. I have not seen any used saws locally so new seems to be the way to go.
Thanks for your suggestions and help.
Pete

[Mac McAtee]

I'd start looking around for a used Delta Unisaw. You dig enough and you'll find one. You get lucky and you may get it for half of what you are talking about spending. Take the rest and up grade, build tables or what have you.

[Paul Dwight]

I own the Griz 1023S and love it. In my experience and for my purposes (serious hobbyist), I can't see that a Unisaw would have any advantage over my Griz.

If price had not been a main factor in my decision, though, I probably would have bought the Jet based on good experiences with some of their other tools. The resale value of the Jet would probably be a little better than the Griz, if that's a factor you want to consider.

If I were in your shoes, I would also be considering the Bridgewood cabinet saw from Wilke Machinery. The cost of shipping a Bridgewood nearly all the way across the country killed the deal for me, but I read a post on another forum that suggests Wilke may be having a special on shipping at the moment. I believe the left-tilt Bridgewood has a box trunnion, which as I understand it is a different, heavier and stouter assembly than the classic Unisaw design (copied by the Griz 1023S).

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be thrilled with your purchase, whether it's a Griz, a Jet or a Bridgewood. The hardest part is making the decision. The second-hardest part is waiting for delivery of your new tool!

Good luck. -- Paul

[Lars Thomas]

Peter, it sounds like you've narrowed you list to a good group of saws. You're right, you're not going to go wrong with any of them. I bought my Jet from Amazon a few years back and was delivered directly into my garage via FedEx Ground in just a few days. It was a smooth transaction.

It's probably too early to worry about the Grizzly delivery. I am planning to purchase the Grizzly 17" band saw in the next few months. I called Grizzly and they told me the name of the shipper in my area. I called the shipper and they said lift gate delivery was no problem. It's funny, when I called them, I told them I was contemplating purchasing a piece of machinery. They said 'Oh from where, Grizzly?' I figured that meant they handled a lot of Grizzly equipment - much of it delivery to residential areas. A real plus with Grizz is having Bill here to assist with any issues (as he did with Johns jointer). Although Jet's got good after the sale service, too.

In a way, I'm in the same boat as you. But with band saws, not table saws. I've looked locally, on the net and Grizzly. To my way of thinking the Grizzly 17" BS is the best deal feature for feature. It'll end up costing ~$25 more (delivered), but the features warrant it, in my opinion.

As I said, I have the Jet, but if I had to do it over with what I know now (and my finances in the condition they are). I would take a long hard look at the Grizzly. Lars

[Peter Kuhlman]

I should have mentioned my usage. I am a weekend woodwacker/hobbiest and have several Jet and Delta tools. Yes I could get by with another contractors saw but my shop is very small so the space savings of the cabinet saw is nice plus I have learned my lesson on low price purchases like my current Craftsman saw my wife bought for me. I did read the recent review by Kelly Mehler in Popular Woodworking (I think) that included the Bridgewood - I will check with Wilke on their pricing and shipping charges as they carry Bridgewood and General. Sure wish I had the space and money for the Felder like he purchased!!
Thanks. Pete

[Jim Earls]

You might want to check out Redmond Machinery at www.redmond-machinery.com. They have a decent selection of re-conditioned Unisaws for sale. I've heard some pretty good things about Redmond. FWIW.

Jim

[danny haber]

I own the General 350 right tilt, they didn't build the left tilt at that time. Although I am completely satisfied with my saw, from what I have read about the Grizzly 1023 and their legion of happy owners I would probably go that route, thus saving money for other things and get an excellent saw in the process. Just my 2 cents.....Danny

[Ed Falis]

And I've got the Bridgewood left tilt that Paul mentioned. I'm very happy with its quality, and feel good that I saved a few hundred bucks to get a good overhead guard and some other extras. I think it's a great value, especially if you can get a break on the shipping.

- Ed

[Kirk (KC) Constable]

I've never used the Grizzly 1023S...but as I've said before several times on several forums, I haven't been real pleased with the 1023ZX we bought for the mesquite outfit.

There are many, many happy owners of the 1023S, and probably the 1023Z, also. But having used all the 'big names' extensively over the years, I just don't feel the Grizzly stacks up. For the hobbyist looking to move up on a budget, it'll do the job. It'll probably be quite an improvement over a contarctor saw. But I don't think somebody who has spent any kind of time on a Unisaw or JET would be happy with it unless they REALLY needed to save the money.

KC

[John Husby]

I own the 1023S and its all the saw I'll ever need. I cut a lot of rough sawn white oak and it handles it without a whimper.You won't be sorry if you buy one. It does every thing the expensive ones do.

[Roger Fitzsimonds]

I am with John, I own a 1023s and it is all the saw I want. I cant respond to the feel as I moved from a delta bench top saw to the Grizzly. But I really like it.

Good Luck in shopping :)

Roger

[Scott Coffelt]

I would go with the Griz myself. You might be able to find a used Delta, but why not get something with a warranty and it fits your price range. Deltas are nice, but for the money its the saw.

Almost two years and no problems with mine. I know many professionals who used it even longer.

Anyway you go with the names you listed you will be happy, it should be the last saw you buy.

[Phil Phelps]

Delta, General and PM at or over $1700, the Jet and Grizzly seem to be the choice. The Jet wins that on looks alone :p .

Thanks for your suggestions and help.
Pete

Why do you think they painted them white? I'll bet Jet has sold more saws based on looks than any other. I don't think that PM has the quality saw they did yeas ago. The pic is a friends PM made in the 70's. It's a real PM. Look at the table top "acreage". He bought it in an auction from his former employer. It's really been used, too. I doubt I'll ever get a deal like he did, and you won't find a PM built like that one today. He spent very little to restore it. I personally don't think they are worth the price they ask today. I have a '47 Unisaw, that is underpowered, but has a great Bies. fence on it. I also have a Griz, 12" 5 hp. The fence is the only part of the saw I would change. Now that was four years ago and they may have a better fence than I have. But it'll never be a Bies or the Incra for that matter. A gerat motor, fence, and blade, make a good table saw. And you're not doing commercial work. But, if you are serious about your WW and it's not a whim, spend the money and buy the saw you really want. Get a pro saw and you'll never upgrade. Money in the bank. You'll be happy, happy. (She'll get over it) ;)

[Steven Wilson]

Originally posted by Phil Phelps

I don't think that PM has the quality saw they did yeas ago. The pic is a friends PM mace in the 70's. It's a real PM. Look at the table top "acreage".

Taking a look at your friends PM he has a new Powermatic Accufence on it. If you take off the top and look at the trunion assembly you'll find very little difference between a PM66 of that vintage and today - the basic difference is the older model had an optional metal motor cover, today's is plastic (no big deal). Newer Powermatic 66's are the equal of ones built 20 years ago; having worked with a few there isn't much difference. Anyhow, the PM's have a few advantages over the Delta and Jet that are readily apparent if you open them up and look under the table's at the trunion assembly. If you want a saw that compares in heft to the PM66 take a gander at the General 350 - equally hefty and a bit less money. Of course all of these saws are light industrial products and in no way compare to a Northfield, Oliver, Altendorf, or Martin.

[Duane M Swensen]

From my work experience I would stay away from a Jet. We have a 4 year old Jet cabinet saw at work and it has been through 4 motors and one set of arbor bearings.The 1 year old 18" band saw is on it's second motor. While they admittedely get some hard use they are not abused.The last motor for the saw lasted less than 2 months.We finally quit buying new motors and sent one of the old ones in for rebuild at a comnpany that rebuilds the drive motors for our trolleys and they comented that they have never seen such a poorly made electric motor.WE have several Craftsman saws and a 20 + year old Unisaw and of all ,the one that gets used the most is the Delta. As to what is in my home workshop, a 10" Delta right tilt Unisaw with the 50" Biesmier Fence. I have no doubt it will out last me.

[Phil Phelps]

Originally posted by Steven Wilson
Newer Powermatic 66's are the equal of ones built 20 years ago; having worked with a few there isn't much difference.

That statement, Steve, was based on what a reputable dealer of Jet, Delta, and Powermatic told me three years ago. They are made in Taiwan, now.

[Peter Kuhlman]

Well, after reading all this (thanks for ALL your replies)----
I am leaning towards the Bridgewood although the shipping cost is $169 :mad: .

Reasons are the box trunnion that is also used by General and PM, a nice review by Kelly Mehler in the recent Woodworkers Journal, and some web articals. Also, they will sell the saw without the fence as I am re-using my Incra TS-III. With the savings, I can purchase the Biesemeyer splitter and Delta Uniguard overhead guard system. Now if it wasn't so dang ugly :D . I still have a little time to think about this so this could change.

Again thanks. This is such a hot topic and there are so many good choices. Too bad that General, Bridgewood, and other saws are not available with the shipping charges included like Amazon does.
Pete

[Steven Wilson]

Originally posted by Phil Phelps


That statement, Steve, was based on what a reputable dealer of Jet, Delta, and Powermatic told me three years ago. They are made in Taiwan, now.

Your dealer friend has given you a line if he told you a PM66, or 1200HD, 1150HD, and a few others are made in Taiwan. Some of the PM stuff is (and BTW "A" in a PM model doesn't mean "Asia") but there are some items that aren't. The castings are farmed out but much of the machining and assembly is still done in the USA

[Phil Phelps]

Originally posted by Steven Wilson
Your dealer friend has given you a line if he told you a PM66, or 1200HD, 1150HD, and a few others are made in Taiwan. Some of the PM stuff is (and BTW "A" in a PM model doesn't mean "Asia") but there are some items that aren't. The castings are farmed out but much of the machining and assembly is still done in the USA

Here you go Steve. Call D&R Saw at 214-637-1264. Ask for JD. He's no friend, just a knowledgeable sales clerk. He says they are good saws, with some parts made in Taiwan. Trunnions made here and come with Baldor motors. Jet is considering several changes that include more overseas parts. Really good macine, but as good as yesteryear? Not quite.

[Dave Arbuckle]

I make no bones that I'm not particularly fond of the gentlemen over at D&R...

1-800-274-6846 is Powermatic's tech support number, Phil. Why not get it from the horse's mouth?

Dave

[Phil Phelps]

Originally posted by Dave Arbuckle
I make no bones that I'm not particularly fond of the gentlemen over at D&R...

1-800-274-6846 is Powermatic's tech support number, Phil. Why not get it from the horse's mouth?

Dave

What does "fondness" have to do with it? Will the folks at Powermatic be objective? The question was, "Is the Powermatic, built today, as good as the ones made many years ago?" I've never owned one, so I don't qualify. Just have to research and draw your own conclusion. I've spoken to three who own PM's and believe the quality is less today. I have no interest either way.

[Steven Wilson]

Originally posted by Phil Phelps
Here you go Steve. Call D&R Saw at 214-637-1264. Ask for JD. He's no friend, just a knowledgeable sales clerk. He says they are good saws, with some parts made in Taiwan. Trunnions made here and come with Baldor motors. Jet is considering several changes that include more overseas parts. Really good macine, but as good as yesteryear? Not quite.

Phil, you stated the the PM66 was made in Taiwan; that's wrong and if JD told you that he's misinformed. This was covered quite a bit in WoodNet this past February. A couple of messages from that thread should suffice


I'm next, seeing how I started this whole damn thing...

I spoke to Gerald Motley, Manager of technical support at Powermatic. He stated that there are tons of weed around the old Powermatic building because it's closed. It's also NOT the foundry. The foundry is located on the other side of Pioneer Lumber Co.

He also gave me the same phone number as mentioned in the previous post as well as the name of the plant manager (Kelly Heatley). If you call there, just wait for Option #2. I called and spoke to Kelly this morning as well. He thought it was pretty funny but after he finished laughing, he confirmed that the foundry is in operation and all is well and made in the U.S.

Gerald also mentioned that the differences in the casting colors are due to a vendor change. Apparently, it is a color code which indicates which company did the machining (old machine shop or new). He also went on to say that the newer castings are made a bit better due to the vendors ability to maintain closer tolerances.

Dave

and continuing



I spoke to Kelly today. He assured me that they are still manufacturing cast iron parts for the Powermatic industrial grade machines such as the PM66, PM72, large drill presses. They make the castings and machine the trunnions to specific specifications as listed by Powermatic.

He told me that they recently switched from "yellow" primer on the trunnions to "black"; however, there is no diffence in the two sets.

They also machine the cast iron tops which have excellent fit and finish.

All this aside, "made in USA" cast iron tops, trunnions, Baldor motor , excellent fit and finish and most importantly, a proven track record of excellence have swayed my decision regarding a cabinet saw. Clearly, the PM 66 is the best in its class!



As for quality, a few things have improved over the years on the 66 - the fence for one is an improvement over the Beis that was standard issue for a few years, I also like the electricals currently in use. As for the cast parts - no appreciable difference.

[Dave Arbuckle]

I would like to point out that, in Steven Wilson's quotation, I am -not- the "Dave" who made that post.

Phil, it was an attempt to disclose that it doesn't surprise me, anything those boys say.

Dave

[Ken Salisbury]

I think this horse has been beaten to death. :D So - I have closed this thread.