Yet more evidence of the decline and fall of the woodworking hobby

[Jack Vines]

Being an old guy who's always had to buy used and trade up to support his woodworking, over the years, I've bought and sold many stationary power tools and portable power tools.

When a local cabinet shop went out of business and was selling everything, I had to take a look. Naturally, I bought a truckload of stuff I didn't need, including a whole shelf of routers - Milwaukee, Skil, Black & Decker and Stanley commercial models. I kept one for myself, one for my son and gave one to a friend. The plan was to sell the remainder on craigslist for just enough to break even on the deal. Listing them at $19 to $29 each, not one single call in a month.

I mean, who doesn't need a $19 USA-made router? No one in Spokane, evidently. My experience is so last-century I guess, when those tools at that price would have had guys fighting over them.

What have been your experiences lately?

[John Lanciani]

I buy and sell a couple of shops' worth of tools every year. the only things worse than corded hand held tools are cordless tools. Unless they are current models from top line names they all end up at the flea market with painfully low price tags on them. The pricing and features of new corded tools make it darned hard to get rid of vintage stuff.

[Ben Rivel]

Being that I read around here about success stories on CL all the time but rarely see anything Id buy on CL in my areas I just figured it was a geographical thing. And I still do think it is. Consider all the wood shows, they are rarely on or near the west coast. All that aside, I definitely think woodworking is a dying art. I am young and just getting into and all I ever see, meet, or hear about it older guys being into the hobby. I assume most of those guys have been in it a long time, have all their tools and arent usually looking around for more or different ones unless its to upgrade to something newer. Many of the younger guys like me want to buy new so we generally arent searching CL looking for deals like yours. I tend to think the old swap-meet mentality is going out with the older guys as they move on too. And with respect to tools thats the market CL usually hits. Just my analysis from what I have seen so far.

[Martin Wasner]

The used market for bigger stuff has really rebounded, but I think demographics come into play as well. I'm watching an auction that ends soon where I thought I was going to snatch this thing up for next to nothing, it's going to likely go at market value though. Rewind twelve months, and move an auction to almost Canada in northern minnesota, and I got the same piece of equipment for 15% of what a new one would cost. Apparently nobody wants to drive the the middle of no and where to pick something up.

I'm watching another auction that also ends soon, there's a piece I'm interested in, no one has even bid on it yet. Granted, there might be people laying low until the last minute. I've seen that plenty of times.

Eight or ten years ago when shops were folding up all over the place, I spent everything I could buying used equipment. Now that things have rebounded a little bit, with no one there to take up the work, the used tool market has really come back. The smoking deals are few and far between it seems. I watch a lot of sites and a lot of auctions, and have been surprised how high some things have gone, and I've also been surprised the other way too. Recently there was a Cantek dovetailer that was not far away. For what it sold for, I would've just bought a brand new one though.


Craigslist has always been my go to for selling stuff. Usually I don't sit on anything too long. Last fall though I had a set of Dimension in Tooling insert heads, LRH insert heads, and Freeborn insert heads listed for at least six week before I sold them. I was selling them all together for $600, which I thought was a killer deal. I think I ended up throwing in a LRH insert panel raiser and sold the whole works for $750. That panel raiser I think was almost $600 on it's own new. I had a mobile base for a Powermatic Model 66 tablesaw, I think that was gone before the end of the day.

Buying/selling used stuff can be weird sometimes.

[Ben Rivel]

Buying/selling used stuff can be weird sometimes.
VERY weird, and so can the people!

[Shawn Pixley]

I mean, who doesn't need a $19 USA-made router?

With all due respect, I don't. I have two routers. One in my router table and another for handheld use. Each get used a couple a time a year.

Another router would just be clutter in my shop. Admittedly, I don't think I work like others - either in the handtool world or with power tools. I have one of the tools I need and generally don't want others or duplicates. Not all of us have the desire for more tools. Maybe that is sacrilligious here. I weed out tools that I don't use often enough to justify their pressence in the shop.

[Wade Lippman]

I mean, who doesn't need a $19 USA-made router? No one in Spokane, evidently.

Unless you really really don't like shipping, you will often do much better on ebay.

About 8 years ago (still this century...) I saw a router at an auction going for $20. I mistook it for something more valuable and bought it for $25, only to be greatly saddened when I got my hands on it.
Sold it on ebay for $135. I gave the correct model number and good photographs. Don't know why anyone would pay that much for a piece of junk, but have found people on ebay are crazy. (also sold a 25 year old parachute for $450 that I bought for $18)

[Ben Rivel]

Oh yea, I can confirm for sure there is often much more money to be made on eBay than CL. People on CL want everything for nothing. People on eBay pay what its worth and more. Plus you dont have to deal with all the low ballers and window shoppers. You only deal with the person who buys/wins the listing and after they pay. Its a done deal or you dont have to talk to anyone unless you want to answer questions if there are any.

[scott spencer]

The price seems right, so I have to ask if you had lots of good pics and a good verbal description of everything? The way an ad looks and reads can make a huge difference.

[Daniel O'Neill]

Oh yea, I can confirm for sure there is often much more money to be made on eBay than CL. People on CL want everything for nothing. People on eBay pay what its worth and more. Plus you dont have to deal with all the low ballers and window shoppers. You only deal with the person who buys/wins the listing and after they pay. Its a done deal or you dont have to talk to anyone unless you want to answer questions if there are any.

This is super true but I would add that some sellers on CL want 80% or more of new. I just bought some used stuff yesterday for sharpening and the guy wanted more than it would cost me to purchase the stuff on Amazon. When I told him he was like "you have to pay shipping" uh Amazon Prime??? I'll have it by this weekend which would be my first chance to use it anyway. He finally came down a little on price but not much. Granted the stones were pretty new and he paid taxes on the original purchase not me so I saved some money but not as much as you would think buying second hand. My wife has some friends who sell a lot on Ebay and they consistently make money off weird thrift store purchases and other junk.
Crazy :)

[John TenEyck]

You need to compare a vintage router with a reconditioned one, not a new one. The price difference will be much less. Reconditioned tools are often new, or nearly new, and often come with a warranty. A used tool on CL? Could be anything and there sure is no warranty. And if it's 20 years old the bearings and brushes may go at any time. I buy stationary tools on CL occasionally, but never even look at power hand tools.

John

[Bruce Page]

Presentation is important, I hate "Find Waldo" ads. It never ceases to amaze me when someone is selling a widget that is in the middle of a dozen other widgets, usually with a dark photo turned sideways.

[Chris Padilla]

Consider all the wood shows, they are rarely on or near the west coast. All that aside, I definitely think woodworking is a dying art. I am young and just getting into and all I ever see, meet, or hear about it older guys being into the hobby. I assume most of those guys have been in it a long time, have all their tools and arent usually looking around for more or different ones unless its to upgrade to something newer. Many of the younger guys like me want to buy new so we generally arent searching CL looking for deals like yours. I tend to think the old swap-meet mentality is going out with the older guys as they move on too. And with respect to tools thats the market CL usually hits. Just my analysis from what I have seen so far.

Ben,

There used to be a nice large ww'ing show in your town every year. I forget when they stopped but you might not have been around or simply not cued into the scene just yet. I bought a spendy Minimax 16" wide jointer/planer combo machine at the 2006 show. Me and some ww'ing buddies used to go every year. It has been a while, however, since we all got together. The shows have definitely dwindled over the years. I don't know if you consider me old (46 years) but I've been at this ww'ing thing since I moved here and bought my first new large tool (Grizzly 1023Z table saw) back in 2000. CL is an excellent place to look for good deals. You just have to be patient and persistent or use some software (like Snarfer...not sure if that is still around) that will look at eBay and CL for you and alert you for things you are interested in. Deals are out there for sure.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

I've worked in cabinet shops for 20 years, and I haven't seen any hand tools at work that I'd want. My tools at home are in much better condition, and often better quality.

[Martin Wasner]

I've worked in cabinet shops for 20 years, and I haven't seen any hand tools at work that I'd want. My tools at home are in much better condition, and often better quality.


I would say that is true for most hand tools in most shops that I've worked in as well. Employees can be hard on stuff.

[Matt Day]

As Shawn stated, I wouldn't buy those routers either. There's not much of a market for old routers like that - they aren't compatible with today's lifts, likely aren't soft start, no variable speed, no dust collection, etc. There are some people who collect routers or have more nostalgia for them like yourself, and as suggested eBay would be a better venue.

I just sold a 20 year old PC router and a stand alone table for $200, in a couple hours on CL. Things in demand will sell.

I don't think this example speaks to the current state of ww'ing. These "ww'ing is dying threads come up every year or so.

[Dan Friedrichs]

As Shawn stated, I wouldn't buy those routers either. There's not much of a market for old routers like that - they aren't compatible with today's lifts, likely aren't soft start, no variable speed, no dust collection, etc.

I agree. I'd gladly spend $200 on a mid-range router with variable speed, good dust collection, built in lift, etc, even if it's made-in-china and objectively lower "quality". I value the comfort features and improved usability over "quality", because I'm not running it for hours per day, and I don't expect it to last forever (much UNLIKE a chisel or plane, where I'll gladly spend the big bucks on Veritas or LN, because I DO expect those to outlast me).

It's interesting that the OP looks at the craigslist market and says, "What's wrong with these buyers?!", because whenever I look through the craigslist tools section, I'm constantly saying to myself, "Uuugh! What's wrong with these sellers who think ANYONE wants a 30 year old black-and-decker drill?! Just throw it away, already!"

[Ben Rivel]

It's interesting that the OP looks at the craigslist market and says, "What's wrong with these buyers?!", because whenever I look through the craigslist tools section, I'm constantly saying to myself, "Uuugh! What's wrong with these sellers who think ANYONE wants a 30 year old black-and-decker drill?! Just throw it away, already!"
LOL same here!

[Erik Loza]

My feeling is that the internet killed brick-and-mortar stores and also the trade shows. That's not good or bad, just is what it is. The sales volume you have to do in order to keep the lights on in a place, or truck your booth around the country, is pretty high and now, you just go online and see how many stars this or that product got, then order it from the comfort of your home. We did this to ourselves.

Erik

[Chris Fournier]

My feeling is that the internet killed brick-and-mortar stores and also the trade shows. That's not good or bad, just is what it is. The sales volume you have to do in order to keep the lights on in a place, or truck your booth around the country, is pretty high and now, you just go online and see how many stars this or that product got, then order it from the comfort of your home. We did this to ourselves.

Erik

Truer words have never been spoken but I would like to add that if you actually have a brick and mortar store buyers like to come in, ask you million questions about their imminent purchase decision, handle it (try it on for size if it is wearable), and then they tell you that they will go buy it on line because it is cheaper.

Oh yeah, when their internet purchase breaks down they come into your brick and mortar shop in a panic, they need to be first in line at your service department, they have a big problem...

Almost forgot, they'll practically throw a fit when they find out that it won't be warrantied or simply replaced by you and your shop rate is "how much"?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. We all like to wield one but none of us like to be cut down by one. You're right, we did this to ourselves.

[David C. Roseman]

Unless you really really don't like shipping, you will often do much better on ebay.

About 8 years ago (still this century...) I saw a router at an auction going for $20. I mistook it for something more valuable and bought it for $25, only to be greatly saddened when I got my hands on it.
Sold it on ebay for $135. I gave the correct model number and good photographs. Don't know why anyone would pay that much for a piece of junk, but have found people on ebay are crazy. (also sold a 25 year old parachute for $450 that I bought for $18)


Hey Wade, would you consider selling some stuff for me on eBay? :)

[Vijay Kumar]

Hey Wade, would you consider selling some stuff for me on eBay? :)
Same thought occurred to me. Would you please? Wade!!

[Erik Loza]

Truer words have never been spoken but I would like to add that if you actually have a brick and mortar store buyers like to come in, ask you million questions about their imminent purchase decision, handle it (try it on for size if it is wearable), and then they tell you that they will go buy it on line because it is cheaper.

Oh yeah, when their internet purchase breaks down they come into your brick and mortar shop in a panic, they need to be first in line at your service department, they have a big problem...

Almost forgot, they'll practically throw a fit when they find out that it won't be warrantied or simply replaced by you and your shop rate is "how much"?

Live by the sword, die by the sword. We all like to wield one but none of us like to be cut down by one. You're right, we did this to ourselves.

Thinking a little more about the trade shows, what I suspect we will see is that the industrial shows such as IWF and AWFS will continue to grow (they have been getting bigger and bigger since around 2012), while the hobby shows will continue to remain basically for consumables or more of a knick-knacks/accessories-type market. Because those are two completely segments of the market. The industry is driven by home sales while the hobby market is still under the forces of Amazon, etc. At the last IWF and AWFS, for example, even mfrs. that used to show hobby machines (brand "F", brand "L", and brand "G" come to mind) either brought no hobby machines to their booths or skipped the shows altogether. Booth space at these shows is super-expensive, so it says that their marketing for hobby machines is going a different direction.

Erik

[Wes Ramsey]

Being an old guy who's always had to buy used and trade up to support his woodworking, over the years, I've bought and sold many stationary power tools and portable power tools.

When a local cabinet shop went out of business and was selling everything, I had to take a look. Naturally, I bought a truckload of stuff I didn't need, including a whole shelf of routers - Milwaukee, Skil, Black & Decker and Stanley commercial models. I kept one for myself, one for my son and gave one to a friend. The plan was to sell the remainder on craigslist for just enough to break even on the deal. Listing them at $19 to $29 each, not one single call in a month.

I mean, who doesn't need a $19 USA-made router? No one in Spokane, evidently. My experience is so last-century I guess, when those tools at that price would have had guys fighting over them.

What have been your experiences lately?

Well, I sure could use a $30 router. That's one tool I haven't invested in yet that I would like to add to my meager shop. For what I would spend on a new one, plus bits, table, plate and paddle switch I just don't have the $$ to go all new. I don't take your post as an ad trying to sell them here, but if you'd be interested in shipping one I'd jump at the chance.

[Chris Fournier]

I just attended the FABTECH show in Toronto last week. It travels across North America and is the metal working industry show. Ten years ago you could go and buy manual equipment. This year I saw one manual lathe, some ring rollers and a Scotchman and no mills, everything was CNC and would knock parts out fast enough to keep a sales force on the road selling output.

Our biggest woodworking consumer shows have either ceased to exist or sell as many beernuts and Shamwows as woodworking tools. The Wood Industry show is as big and robust as ever, again CNC is in the limelight.

[Glenn de Souza]

I think there are two subjects going on in this thread. No doubt the method and channel for tool vendors has changed in the internet age, along with most other types of retailers also. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perspective.

However with regard to the notion that woodworking as a hobby pursuit is declining, falling, dying, I'm not sure I see it from my dog's eye view of the world. Resources like YouTube and forums like SMC have made information on woodworking available more efficiently than when I first got into it. The Maker movement is gaining momentum also, and some believe as a reaction to a human desire to work with tactile materials in a physical, creative way, which is perhaps a therapy in an information age where many of spend our days in front of computers working in a virtual world of data. While a lot of the Maker movement is focused on 3D printing, electronics and science, a lot of it focuses on metalworking, wood and plastics so I see it as a not-so-distant relative of orthodox woodworking.

I'm just saying that the lack of response the OP experienced to an ad for old routers is not necessarily an indication that woodworking is dying.

[Chris Fournier]

I think there are two subjects going on in this thread. No doubt the method and channel for tool vendors has changed in the internet age, along with most other types of retailers also. Whether that's good or bad is a matter of perspective.

However with regard to the notion that woodworking as a hobby pursuit is declining, falling, dying, I'm not sure I see it from my dog's eye view of the world. Resources like YouTube and forums like SMC have made information on woodworking available more efficiently than when I first got into it. The Maker movement is gaining momentum also, and some believe as a reaction to a human desire to work with tactile materials in a physical, creative way, which is perhaps a therapy in an information age where many of spend our days in front of computers working in a virtual world of data. While a lot of the Maker movement is focused on 3D printing, electronics and science, a lot of it focuses on metalworking, wood and plastics so I see it as a not-so-distant relative of orthodox woodworking.

I'm just saying that the lack of response the OP experienced to an ad for old routers is not necessarily an indication that woodworking is dying.

I agree with you 100%. You nailed it.

[Jim Dwight]

I think ebay and craigslist are two very different ways of purchasing. I've sold a few things, including my old 1hp DC, on craigslist but I haven't purchased anything there. My issue is just the time to drive to somebody's house to get the object. I'd rather fire up the laptop and order it on Amazon. ebay isn't Amazon but if you will ship to people then you are closer to the Amazon experience. I've purchased there too but don't do it as often because there are a range of people offering goods there. I've had good experience but I know there are others.

I would pay $29 for another decent router but I've got 4 good ones already except I need to see why one PC isn't working. I think it's the speed control. So until I feel like looking at it and probably bypass the speed control. I rarely use it and have a separate one for when I need to slow it down. But another router is frequently nice just to avoid having to swap out bits while doing something. But then you have to maintain them and store them... But they're pretty small - and handy.

[Steve H Graham]

I agree with the guy who said presentation is important. So is communication.

1. No photo. Are you kidding? I don't even consider these ads.

2. Ebay price on a Craigslist item. NO. Ebay is better. I will pay more, because Paypal will stick it to the seller if he cheats me. And Ebay sends stuff to your door, so you don't have to drive.

3. Full new-item retail price (or more) on a used item. Don't even get me started. I can't tell you how many times I've seen this.

4. I contact you, and you don't respond for two days. Then you don't answer my questions, or you're rude. Forget it; get lost.

5. You're in a bad neighborhood. I don't care how great the deal is. It's not worth dying for.

Someone here said CL buyers expect stuff for nothing. That sounds like me. The risk and the work have to be balanced by a low price. If it's not a smoking deal, I will not even contact you.

I've rarely gotten a good price for anything I sold on Craigslist. I wanted stuff gone fast, so I discounted it. If I wanted a decent price, I'd choose Ebay and be patient.

Just being real.

[Alan Schwabacher]

The only thing worse than no photo is when the photo is obviously just harvested off the internet, and not of the item for sale. That and a low price often indicate someone who is simply collecting email addresses, and not actually selling anything. There is a photo of a sawstop that has cropped up around the country -- the same photo in far-flung places -- at a ridiculously low price. It's not for real.

Low dollar items that might not be worth the gas and time to get them may not get response on craigslist. If you are not certain the seller is honest, it's definitely not worth the bother. But if you know the seller and can trust that the item will work, it could make a big difference. So a challenge selling these things is to somehow make the buyer believe you're legit.

If you want an old tool worth little, the place to look is a habitat for humanity restore. If you have one that doesn't sell, or is not worth the bother to sell and you don't want it to go to waste, donate it there.

[John T Barker]

I would say that is true for most hand tools in most shops that I've worked in as well. Employees can be hard on stuff.

Exactly. You're talking about multiple guys using them on and off 5 to 7 days a week. In the first shop I worked in we had a bunch of PC 1.5HP's and I can say for sure nobody babied them.

[Rich Riddle]

I mean, who doesn't need a $19 USA-made router?
The place of manufacturer doesn't matter to many people; most don't even look these days. Parts availability and reviews matter. Don't speculate on tools, unless the go "bang".....there aren't enough of us old timers to purchase them.

[rudy de haas]

It seems to me that this thread has raised a number of interesting issues each of which deserves its own thread.

On the issue of woodworker demographics: i think that the younger guys are working in production shops and/or for higher volume builders where they don't have the time and/or interest in communicating with woodworkers outside their businesses - and that makes them invisible to most of us. As these people get older they'll have more time and those few who become real masters of the craft will become more and more visible - and I'd bet at least half the people on this forum followed a route similar to that.

On the issue of buying used: I think a lot of sellers have no idea what they have while a small minority are people who buy and sell based on the assumption that there's always someone out there who has no idea what he or she is buying. I bought my shaper used and am happy with it, but a guy selling a very nice King 350 at the time (nearly a year ago now) is still trying to sell it - and so is another guy offering a small General. The reasons they're not selling include price (too high) and unhelpfulness to the customer (you can go see the products, but at their convenience, not yours).

On the issue of the internet vs brick and mortar - I love brick and mortar, provided the store has people who can help me understand the products and a customer service attitude. I'll happily pay more for not-made-in-China, but if I can get the Korean product today at half the price of an American product that I can't see and try and may not get for a month, that choice becomes a no brainer. Companies like Grizzly that try to combine bricks and mortar with a catalogue order operation can succeed at it - but only if they put the customer first and provide hands-on support. Thus I don't understand, for example, why they don't have a travelling road show - if Tim Taylor and Heidi want to show me power tools in Calgary next week, I know I'm going... :)

[Tom M King]

Easier to buy Festool with a credit card.

[Prashun Patel]

While there may be a current disconnect between getting good tools from good sellers into the hands of good buyers, it's hardly 'yet more evidence of the fall of the woodworking hobby'.

I think the woodworking hobby is on the rise because of the Internet. It's no longer the domain of the master and apprentice. Anyone with interest - and there are people with interest - can now learn a great deal. The craft has become accessible. Now, quality woodworking as a BUSINESS may be a different thing, but as a HOBBY, I vote that it's on the rise.

This reminds me of when people who grew up with me cry that there's 'no good music these days'. It's changed, and it ain't always the same, but if you look and listen and learn, there's a lot of innovative things going on. I hate it when my kids don't 'get' the Beatles or Led Zeppelin, but they're as passionate about their tastes as am I.

There's a lot MORE stuff out there, which means there's a lot of crap, but there's a lot of great, innovative, mind-blowing and technically top-notch work out there too.

[Rod Sheridan]

When I go to wood working shows (or motorcycle events) I find myself in a sea of grey haired guys like myself.

I see very few young people at these shows.

Admittedly I live in a large city, most young people will be living in a condo or apartment ( average house price is $1,000,000 in Toronto, I know it's in $CAD so about $1,987US :rolleyes: ).

Not many people do woodworking in a condo.

A few years ago my daughter was showing off her new dining room table she built out of red oak, at a party at her condo. Nobody believed she made it, after all, furniture comes from IKEA, not your Dads shop.

With the reduction in the number of schools offering shop classes, and the many parents who don't do any shop type activities at home, there's very little opportunity to pass wood working on to future generations.

Regards, Rod.

[Cody Colston]

I, too, think that woodworking as a hobby is on the decline. Sure there are a bunch of us old farts that woodwork but I don't see a lot of younger people interested. It's actually depressing to see all the gray hair at woodworking exhibitions and seminars and I are one.

The '70's saw a rise in woodworking interest. I believe it was a direct result of the culture prevalent then among youth...the get-back-to-nature movement. Wood being an organic media was the logical choice for the hippie generation. The craft was still showing increased interest into the '80's as those young folks moved into a better wage-earning position and were able to afford more power tools and machines for their "hobby." The advent of internet forums and retail sites kept the interest high for a while.

Now, I think the genre is on the decline. Forums are declining in membership and interest because there is just so much information available. A Google search will bring up answers and how-tos about anything...no real need to ask the question of forum strangers and then sort through the myriad, often contradictory, answers. The thread here about the "best" tablesaw is a good example.

Even among active woodworkers, I see a definite shift from wanting to do fine work to more "folksy" crafts. Slap a natural edge plank on any kind of base, shine it up with a finish, call it Nakashima inspired and it will suffice. Most "rustic" projects fit in the same category with rustic being a replacement for skill to create something finely crafted.

So, decline...it looks like it to me. Fall? No, there will always be those who have a respect, if not reverence, for wood and it's allure.

Finally, Prashun...good music died with the emergence of disco. It's only gotten worse since then. :D:D:D

[Prashun Patel]

It's just changing. It's not what you guys are used to. I don't go to WW shows because there's no diversity (in all its forms) there. There's way more diversity on the Internet.

It isn't how you'd all like it to change, but wood's (yet) abundance, beauty, versatility, economy, strength, sustainability means the craft will die very hard. You can think what you want. This is how I see it.

[Peter Aeschliman]

I remember there was a thread probably about 6 months ago that took an age survey of SMC's membership. I was really surprised to see that I was in a significant minority here, at 35 years old. I expected to be in the middle of the bell curve, but a strong majority were in their 60's or above.

But we have to be careful when we interpret those results. Does this site's membership represent the woodworking hobby as a whole? Maybe, but I don't know. I think there's certainly truth to what Prashun is referring to- retirees have more time to spend on forums and doubling down on their hobbies (and the money for it). Most of my friends have kids and full time jobs (I don't have kids), so money is tight and priorities are elsewhere. So I don't think a snapshot of age demographics tell you much.

And age doesn't necessarily correlate to quality of craftsmanship either, so I'm not sure that demographics are a useful indicator of the craft. Young people can do great work, and old people can do terrible work. What matters is experience, attention to detail, talent, dedication, etc.

And similarly, I don't think that people not wanting to buy old made in the US routers is a useful indicator of the decline of the hobby either. How does that saying go? "Bad craftsman blame their tools"?

I think we as humans have a tendency to always look at younger generations as worse. Like they're ruining everything, don't appreciate this or that, are morally corrupt, etc. I really don't subscribe to that automatic assumption.

And I think I've just about covered the spectrum in this rambling post. haha. The end.

EDIT: In an attempt to bring my post to some kind of coherent conclusion: we're all making guesses based on anecdotes. We need surveys over time, and more research into the quality of the work that professionals and hobbyists are putting out, before any of us can do anything other than guess based on our gut feelings.

[Shawn Pixley]

I think Prashun has it right here. It is changing and we are moving in different circles.

Cody, sorry, I feel you are wrong on the music / disco thing. Yes, disco was a low point. But the punk, new wave, alternative, grunge, new Prog have all had very high moments. Certainly higher than anything by say Strawberry Alarm Clock (pre disco). Music did not die in 1976. You just didn't move with it. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is a very subjective perspective.

[Prashun Patel]

And regarding disco:

I bet there are a bunch of bass players out there who will differ that disco was a low point.

And if you are a manufacturer of high-hats you better thank your lucky stars for disco!

Gloria Gaynor said it best:

I will still rive
I will still rive
As long as my froe's sharp and cuts
To make a chair, I'll strive

[Cody Colston]

I think Prashun has it right here. It is changing and we are moving in different circles.

Cody, sorry, I feel you are wrong on the music / disco thing. Yes, disco was a low point. But the punk, new wave, alternative, grunge, new Prog have all had very high moments. Certainly higher than anything by say Strawberry Alarm Clock (pre disco). Music did not die in 1976. You just didn't move with it. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it is a very subjective perspective.

LOL, you're right and the "death by disco" thing was more tongue-in-cheek than serious. Music tastes are subjective and thankfully, there's something for everyone...even if it's me and classic rock.

I'm like the "Old Hippie" in the Bellamy Bros song..."He gets off on Country Music 'cause disco left him cold...He's got young friends into New Wave, but he's just too friggin' old." :D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I think Prashun has it right here. It is changing and we are moving in different circles.
Certainly higher than anything by say Strawberry Alarm Clock (pre disco).

And what, pray tell, is wrong with Strawberry Alarm Clock?:confused::rolleyes::D

Incense and peppermints....

[Rod Sheridan]

I remember there was a thread probably about 6 months ago that took an age survey of SMC's membership. I was really surprised to see that I was in a significant minority here, at 35 years old. I expected to be in the middle of the bell curve, but a strong majority were in their 60's or above.

Hi Peter, I agree that there may be a self bias in the forum members age, however I also notice this in motorcycling.

Almost every year I go to the BMW bike rally in Watkins Glen, New York, every year the average age of riders is my age, we're not attracting any younger riders.

Same as last night I went to a social event at the BMW bike dealer, 99% grey haired guys like my wife and I, I think insurance and new motorcycle costs are doing to motorcycling what condo's and lower incomes are doing to beginning wood workers..............Regards, Rod.

[Daniel O'Neill]

In regards to age FWIW I'm 32 right now. One thing that has slowed my entry into woodworking was the crash. 10 years ago. I went to buy my first house after 1.5 years at a full time job. I couldn't buy a 1 bedroom condo in the far suburbs. Prices were sooo high. I spent the next 10 years moving every other year and taking pay cuts to keep my job. With no shop & less cash how could you start a hobby like this? I've gotten great deals on CL btw but I've also been ripped off by liars. At least with Amazon/Ebay/Brick&Mortar you have some recourse. (returns/warranty etc) I don't have lots of extra time and so I don't desire to spend it driving to the nearest woodcraft store (40 min each way IIRC) when I can order it and have it in 2 days at my doorstep with Amazon Prime. I get so little time to do this that the last thing I want to do is spend time driving to a store in sacrifice of time in the garage.

I think another thing to keep in mind is that there's a lot more to do now. People make video games as a hobby they write computer programs and all kinds of other things that were not around 30 years ago. And too there's such a big push that everyone needs college to make a living that these jobs & hobbies become the focus and trade skills like carpentry & mechanics begin to fall to the wayside. IMHO. Another thing is how much more automated the process can be with CNC and laser engraving becoming more prevalent too.

FWIW most of the time when I google something woodworking related SMC is on the front page somewhere. This is a really helpful place. I'm still learning all the areas but I've learned a lot about woodworking from everyone here so thanks. Maybe someday I'll get a project done and post it somewhere :)
Daniel

[Cody Colston]

I did a quick Google search (on a very slow wifi connection) attempting to find info on the number of amateur woodworkers and if that number is declining. I found nothing about the decline factor but I did find an interesting article from a marketing site, 2006 - Marketing Focus: Amateur Woodworkers.
Nailing Down a Niche
Thinking small can generate big results. At least, that’s what some marketers are finding when it comes to the woodworking hobbyist market in the United States. A survey conducted by National Family Opinion on behalf of Wood magazine found that approximately 5.5 million Americans actively participate in woodworking as a hobby, says Mark Hagen, the magazine’s publisher. That’s a relatively minute segment of the population but, in the case of woodworkers, it’s not the market size that counts—it’s the demographics.
The typical amateur woodworker is male, 50 to 55 years old, educated, married and a homeowner, says Lawanna Bales, CEO of Atlanta-based Highland Hardware, a mail-order marketer of tools, supplies and books for wood-workers. In terms of profession, the group is fairly eclectic. “We have [tradesmen] … who are really good at working with their hands,” observes Hagen. “We also have a fair amount of professionals—doctors, lawyers, dentists and people like that.”
The common denominator is that all of them have time and money to invest in their hobby, and they aren’t afraid to use it to shop remotely. In fact, 62 percent of Wood subscribers bought woodworking products via direct response in 2002, according to a 2003 subscriber study. This may be attributed to the group’s use of specialized tools and materials that aren’t available through mainstream retailers, and the fact that many woodworkers live in suburban to rural areas, where access to large woodworking retailers may be limited.

[pat warner]

The participation is down.
Who knows why? Bicycle sales peaked ~1974 and never again reached that high.
All magazine subscriptions are down, some very seriously.
Is that a measure of participation? I don't know. It used to be.
The types of forum questions & volume are clearly in decline.
Where to place a chuck key for a drill press gets five day exposure!
Is that an indicator?
A 690 router in the early 70's sells for less today.
How in the hell can that happen? Maybe not relevant, but peculiar.
In my view, and it's a pity, participation in the art is significantly down.

[rudy de haas]

One of the responses ( by Erik Loza) says:

<BLOCKQUOTE>


My feeling is that the internet killed brick-and-mortar stores and also the trade shows. That's not good or bad, just is what it is. The sales volume you have to do in order to keep the lights on in a place, or truck your booth around the country, is pretty high and now, you just go online and see how many stars this or that product got, then order it from the comfort of your home. We did this to ourselves.

Erik

:</BLOCKQOUTE>

Ever since I tried to buy a set of tools from Grizzly (I'm In Canada and do not want UPS involved in any cross border transaction, so I ended up buying from grizzly's Canadian colleagues at busybee) I've wondered why they don't have a traveling road show. This thread is my way of asking how others feel about this.

In particular, Eric's statement above is, I think, quite right except that I strongly prefer to touch and handle products before buying them and am therefore unlikely to buy a product on line if I'm not already familiar with it. Power tools, however, don't change much so a few minutes hands-on with a G0675 in 2014 would give me the confidence to buy the 2016 model sight-unseen - and that, therefore, is the long term value of a road show: not the immediate customer, but the guy who skips the box store or speciality retailer to buy on-line two years later.

It's hard to see how you could quantify the value without running a road show and waiting a year or two to see what effect it has on sales, but it's relatively easy to estimate the cost of the thing per operating month or other period - and those costs aren't as high as you might think because some demonstrators could be recruited (?) at each stop by adding opportunities for local wood workers ( e.g. product booths staffed by happy grizzly customers willing to demonstrate the product while selling (or just bragging about) whatever they make, will sell more product than the slickest traveling sales crew).

So two specific questions:

1 - If a company like grizzly sent two trailers worth of gear and a couple of people on tour, would you attend their events and/or show at their events? how far would you travel to one?

2 - do you agree that hands-on with a power tool you're not buying today would influence your choice two years later?

[jack duren]

The crash hurt the hobbyist. For a a few honest hobbyist I personally hated it, but for the many cutting professional prices to make bucks I'm glad. You would be surprised the many cabinet shops paying less in labor today compared to 5-10 years ago. Shops having 11-12 employees down too 4. Just now coming back to full swing but without the higher wages.

It didn't really hurt me I survived but left residential and went into commercial and it has boomed.But to break this cycle I went into furniture where hobbyist has a harder time finding a good customer base.

[Michael Sloop]

I live in Raleigh, NC and if a decent tool shows up on CL you better jump quick. The demand for woodworking tools in this area is high. The consensus around here is that machines go for half their new price, as long as the condition is good. Sometimes you find a gem, sometimes you get the raw end. I'll occasionally check CL in NE cities just so I can drool over the big heavy machinery at half the cost as here.

I cant comment on woodworking interest across the country, but it seems to be high here.

[Glenn de Souza]

I can easily name a dozen or more woodworkers with YouTube channels who are posting content constantly, weekly or more in frequency. Some of them have 500,000 or more subscribers. How would this be the case if interest in woodworking is dying?

I believe we're living in a time when the telltale signs and indicators of interest in woodworking are different than they were even a short while ago. The interest isn't gone, you just have to look in different places to see it.

Also, like I mentioned above, there is a place where DIY, classical woodworking and the Maker movement intersect. Maybe more people are entering from the DIY and Maker side, but they're still practicing woodworking.

Truth be told, I'm not sure it's realistic to ever expect woodworking to be a broad mainstream pursuit. There are too many obstacles for many. There's a big investment in tools, a steep learning curve, and it's very time consuming. Most people just don't have the patience and tenacity to see a project through the hours it takes to go from a stack of boards to a finished piece. In an age where we're accustomed to two-day, sometimes same day delivery of nearly anything, instant streaming of movies and music, a woodworking project can seem like an eternity, and it hasn't really gotten any faster for the hobbyist with technology.

Add to this the conundrum of the low cost of furniture (even nice, well made furniture) in comparison to the hobbyist's cost of materials and investment of time.

This said, I still see a lot of signs of interest, just not in the traditional places.

[Jeff Duncan]

Wouldn't do much for me, I've pretty much given up on buying new equipment. For the last 10 years or so it's been mostly used and I try to buy the best quality I can. As far as Grizzly goes they apparently can't keep up with their sales as is, so can't see much value for them to spend a lot on a traveling show to try and sell more?

I do agree that if you've kicked the tires on a machine there's no real reason to have to see it again after 2 years. You likely know as much as you need to in order to make a buying decision. Only caveat might be for someone newer who has since gotten hands on with several other manufacturers and want to go back and compare again.

I don't miss the shows all that much for buying equipment since I'm not in the market anyway. However there were usually a lot of accessories and gadgets that were fun to look at!

good luck,
JeffD

[Ben Grefe]

I mean, who doesn't need a $19 USA-made router? No one in Spokane, evidently.

I think you answered half your question with location. Try making that same statement on the other side of the state - in Seattle. Plethora of 'young' people (20's & 30's) with ample jobs and spare income. There are no deals to be found around here.

[Sean Shannon]

I see a lot of people my age(early 30's) getting into it the hobby now. By this time people can afford or have the extra cash to pursue the tools. I think thats the biggest hinderance to the hobby itself. It's a lot of cost to get even basic tools, and the disposable income isn't really there for people who are just out of college and starting there careers. Same is true for people coming out of the trades. Just a lot of inherit cost to get started in this hobby so people are slow to get into it.

As far as the projects and people taking slabs and throwing them on to metal legs and calling it "furniture". I agree, that it lessens that craft, but thats what is trendy right now. Nothing makes me want to kick puppies more than antique furniture with milk paint slapped on it and the edges sanded off with a random orbit sander. But yet again, thats what is trendy now.

Antique dealers are getting away from fine antique furniture and are more getting into Mid Century Modern style furniture. Yet again, its what is trendy right now.

[Irvin Gomez]

I think old hobbies are being replaced by new hobbies because of technology. People are just doing things differently. It can be a bit sad (but not wrong - we have to accept change): I love photography and have literally thousands of pictures of all kinds, specially family events like weddings, birthdays, etc. I stopped taking pictures at family occasions about 5 years ago because nobody is posing for pictures any more! Everyone is busy taking their own pictures with their phone...lol...what can you do? So, rather than taking pictures of people taking pictures, I just sit back and enjoy the cake and drinks!

The world has changed dramatically in the last 20 years or so and we have to embrace change. Things are not just different. They are much better. Evolution is good. Stagnation is death.

[Bill Sutherland]

Spokane CL is full of old beat up cheap ww/tools. Very seldom do you see much in the way of quality tools being offered.

[Wayne Jolly]

2 - do you agree that hands-on with a power tool you're not buying today would influence your choice two years later?

If I was planning to purchase in the next couple of years, seeing a machine now could INFLUENCE a purchase, but a lot can happen to the quality of a machine in 2 years. I would have to do the research all over again.

Wayne

[Frederick Skelly]

1.) Lie Neilsen does this. But if you buy, they ship from their shop after the fact. I would drive a perhaps as far as 200 miles, if I was seriously interested in one of their more expensive tools and they told me I could try it. (Bet their insurance wouldnt let them let me though.)

2) I agree. But I probably wouldn't drive more than 50 miles if the buy was 2 yrs out.

[Frederick Skelly]

Another thing is how much more automated the process can be with CNC and laser engraving becoming more prevalent too.

+1. And I'm betting that one day, all of us who use power tools will be considered "Neanders" and the General Woodworking Forum will focus on CNC and other computer controlled techniques.

[Irvin Gomez]

+1. And I'm betting that one day, all of us who use power tools will be considered "Neanders" and the General Woodworking Forum will focus on CNC and other computer controlled techniques.

That's pretty exciting, actually: imagine 20 years from now, you sit on your touchscreen desktop (an ultra-thin, ultra-powerful all-in one), start your woodworking software, design a chair, table or whatever you want and "print it" wirelessly to the monster CNC machine at the local Wood Kinko's. You pick up a fully assembled product in 2 hours. Your choice of wood, all a plastic imitation of any wood species that can't be easily distinguished from the real thing.

No more measuring, cutting, joining, gluing, sanding, finishing or sweating.


No more dust, empty wallet or missing fingers.

[Art Mann]

I don't think your inability to sell hard used electric hand tools from a commercial environment says anything at all about the status of woodworking as a hobby. Craigslist and eBay are both full of such items and most of them are overpriced junk. The economics of buying partially warn out tools of unknown condition is always questionable. In our affluent society, it is even more so.

On the other side of the coin is Festool. From what I am seeing, this brand is wildly popular. Lots and lots of people are willing to pay a high premium to get the best design and quality. That is definitely not an indicator of a declining hobby. It is an indicator of a hobby becoming more for the affluent. You can see that on SMC. Any time a newcomer comes to ask what brand and model of tool to buy, most posters recommend the more expensive products, regardless of value.

[Irvin Gomez]

Lots and lots of people are willing to pay a high premium to get the best design and quality. That is definitely not an indicator of a declining hobby. It is an indicator of a hobby becoming more for the affluent. You can see that on SMC. Any time a newcomer comes to ask what brand and model of tool to buy, most posters recommend the more expensive products, regardless of value.

Well...that seems like a contradiction to me.

If your premise holds true, woodworking is a declining hobby, indeed. For the simple reason the affluent are a smaller group than the rest (I agree with your premise, but not your conclusion. I think it is a declining hobby, at least from my limited perspective).

[Ian Funk]

I'm 23 years old and can only think of one or two friends my age that are interested in woodworking.

[Erik Loza]

I'm 23 years old and can only think of one or two friends my age that are interested in woodworking.

The have a number of customers in the 20's and early 30's but they are all pro guys, from commercial shops. Most of my hobby owners are in the 40-60 bracket.

Erik

[Art Mann]

Woodworking has never been much of an interest for 20 or 30 somethings. The ones that are settled down enough to have a place to do woodworking are either too busy with family or don't have the money to pursue it in a big way. I started woodworking for fun and (a little) profit in 1977 but most of those with whom I shared my efforts were much older, even then. I do find a lot fewer people are willing to work with modest or old tools than there used to be. However, there seems to be a lot more who are buying expensive European branded tools. Whether you call that a decline is a matter of your definition of decline, I suppose.

[Brian Henderson]

The have a number of customers in the 20's and early 30's but they are all pro guys, from commercial shops. Most of my hobby owners are in the 40-60 bracket.

Yet I was doing this in my 20s and 30s, as were lots of people I knew. Today, I don't personally know anyone under 40 who does this non-professionally.

[Michael Yadfar]

I live in southeastern PA, and when I started to put my shop together I looked 6 months trying to get vintage tools, like Delta-Rockwell. These are a bit different because they're stationary tools, but everyone on Craigslist was either majorly overpriced or junk, and whatever decent stuff went up for a good price was gone in like a day. The over priced stuff actually usually sold within a few months as well. I did consider some of the overpriced machines, but just couldn't do it. For example, some guy had a 14" Delta-Rockwell bandsaw from a school shop in mint condition, but wanted $700. For $500, I went and got a brand new Grizzly one. While the Grizzly one is not as well built and made in China, I just couldn't pay a $200 premium on a machine that old. The only machine I got used was a Jet 6" bandsaw, but it wasn't really vintage and 6" planers are easier to find. As far as hand tools, anything cordless I don't even bother buying used. Corded though, I would be ok with, especially at your price

[Michael Yadfar]

As far as younger people getting into it, I'm 20 and I'm the only person in this age range that I know who does this for fun. I spent some of my left over college money putting together a shop which is small but I use it all the time. It's the same trend with working on cars too. I think part of it is lack of exposure, and technology taking over. My high school eliminated woodshop my junior year, and we were actually one of few in the area to have it. I understand it's not a career for most, but what's wrong with just a little bit of hands on fun and creativity? High school is actually where I discovered my love for it. You also have technology taking over as hobbies, which people didn't have over 20 years ago

[Chris Hachet]

With all due respect, I don't. I have two routers. One in my router table and another for handheld use. Each get used a couple a time a year.

Another router would just be clutter in my shop. Admittedly, I don't think I work like others - either in the handtool world or with power tools. I have one of the tools I need and generally don't want others or duplicates. Not all of us have the desire for more tools. Maybe that is sacrilligious here. I weed out tools that I don't use often enough to justify their pressence in the shop.

Pretty much this. I find having a shop well organized with just what I need in it works much better for me.

[CPeter James]

I buy and sell a lot of tools on CL, mostly Delta drill presses. I sold 6 or 7 last year and am on my way to do the same this year. As was stated above, presentation is everything! No picture or stock picture and I ask, what are they hiding. I try to make the things I am selling look and work as good as or better than new. As a rule, I don't deal in used Asian machines and push the fact that the ones I am selling are made in USA when we made top quality and before the bean counters took over our manufacturing. With free photo editing programs out there, why do people post pictures that are so dark you can't see anything, are upside down, or so littered with junk that you can't see the item for sale is beyond me. Another thing I don't understand are the ads that say just needs this or that small repair, yet they want top dollar for it. When people ask me about pricing, I tell them that they have to consider that most things go on sale from time to time and even if almost new and unused, the second owner probably gets no warranty. Price it right, clean it up and show good photos and it will sell.

CPeter

[Cody Colston]

I agree that most Craigslist tool pictures are horrible. The tools are invariably dirty/dusty, sitting in the middle of a bunch of junk/clutter with bad lighting. One would think the sellers would have enough sense to clean up the tools and post suitable pics if they really want to sell.

The descriptions are also a hoot. I think my favorite is "ban saw."

[Roy Turbett]

I got interested in woodworking because of Norm and The New Yankee Workshop and I'm sure I'm not the only one. IMHOP, there hasn't been another show that has generated as much new interest in woodworking. When I'm working on a project I make at least one trip to the local big box store and always find myself walking through the tool section to see what's new and on sale, but I'm not going to make a special trip across town to look at a used router. I do shop at a couple of tool consignment shops when i'm in the area and have found some decent deals including a 3 1/2 hp v/s router.

I am willing to travel to buy larger tools and drove 230 miles to pick up a used 5 hp SawStop ICS that I found on CL. I also sold two Powermatic 90 wood lathes on CL to buyers who traveled 350 miles from Milwaukee and southern Indiana.

[Orion Henderson]

Woodworking is not in decline at all! Not even a little. It is a growing hobby for huge numbers of people.

Just look at the all the new woodworking materials available. It ranges from the YouTube woodworkers like Matt Cremona and the Wood Whisperer, to the bloggers/writers like Chris Schwarz and the 360 Woodworking guys, to new magazines like Mortise and Tenon. And then there are the schools-there are new woodworking schools all over the place now. Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking, Kelly Mehler, and countless others are teaching woodworking to hobbyists. All of those new resources would not exist if there wasn't a market for them.

Most guys in their 20's and 30's don't do a lot of woodworking-but that will always be the case. They don't have the time, space, or in some cases, money. It's something I bet many pick up in their 40's and 50's. The only argument really is that my generation wasn't taught essential woodworking as kids. Oh well, so be it. That's why the schools exist.

Tools not selling does not equal a decline in woodworking.

[Prashun Patel]

I love Matt Cremona. What a great addition to WoodTalk.

[Steven Wayne]

I got my first job at 13 (43 now) so I could buy a table saw. I have been into woodworking the entire time. It's my first true love.

As far as Spokane Craigslist goes, I have bought quite a bit of great stuff on there and sold every item I have posted, eventually.

[ken lewellyn]

I think the challenge to find and keep a decent paying job has impacted the number of people who have the resources to devote to woodworking. Also the move toward an "electronic society" impacts peoples' choice of woodworking as a hobby. I kind of stumbled into it when I was about 50. Since then, I have assembled a collection of old machines (1945 Delta Unisaw, 1938 Delta Drill Press, 1946 Delta Jointer, 1967 Parks Planer, 1967 Delta Wood Lathe. etc) for an average price of about $200 per machine or less. But I have to restore them, which many people won't/can't do. This means their cost to entry is much higher and labor intensive. The motivation to invest the time, energy, and money isn't here for many of the younger generation. Their interests are more in the electronic realm. It takes a lot more effort to find, buy, restore, and learn an old machine than it does to gravitate to a computer based hobby - especially when you are more comfortable in that arena.

[Simon MacGowen]

No idea if woodworking is dying or flourishing as a hobby, but I do know the woodworking magazine sector has shrunk over the past 10 years. I have attended a few woodworking shows and mostly, the attendees were between 40 and 70. I seldom come across people under 40 when I shop at woodworking stores, either.

What that suggests is that if the hobby isn't dying, it is moving to that direction unless more young people are taking it up. In 30 years, most current hobby woodworkers will turn 70 and over. I wonder how many woodworking magazines will remain in 20 years, let alone 30.

Simon

[Alan Lilly]

It is declining, but I think it is also changing into something else with youtube and the maker movement.
Time will tell ... but check out this graph on google trends for woodworking searches...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=woodworking

[Kelby Van Patten]

The one real indicator of how the hobby is doing is how prevalent the tool suppliers are. In terms of manufacturers, there seem to be more than ever. The last couple decades has seen the rise of SawStop, as well as the spread of European tool manufacturers here in the US manufacturing a wider variety of hobby-level machines than ever. As far as retail outlets, there are far more Woodcraft and Rockler stores today than there were 20 years ago. And then there's Festool. This is in addition to the Powermatics, Jets, DeWalts, Porter Cables, Ridgids, Milwaukees, Mikitas, etc. that continue to sell in volume. The fact that there are more manufacturers than ever catering to the US hobbyist market is a pretty good indication that the hobby is doing just fine.

Several things that are not relevant to whether the hobby is thriving:

1) People aren't buying woodworking magazines anymore. Seriously? People aren't buying magazines of any kind anymore. It's not because the hobby is in decline. It's because of something called the internet. Google it.

2) How many people you know who do woodworking as a hobby. The percentage of the population who do woodworking as a hobby has always been small. Which means most people have never known many people who do woodworking as a hobby. If at some point you knew lots, that doesn't mean the hobby was once more popular; it just means that your crowd of friends was once not very representative of the population as a whole, and now you have a more normal group of friends.

3) How many people are attending the Woodworking shows. I used to attend every one within 100 miles. But I haven't been to one in over a decade. It isn't because I've stopped doing woodworking. It's because whoever is running those shows doesn't seem to know their backside from a hole in the ground. At one point, those shows offered great value. You could get deals on tools that were better than you could find anywhere else. When I stopped going, the deals at the show were not as good as deals I'd see on Rockler's Memorial Day sales. There used to be some really helpful classes/presentations. But now you can find much better information on YouTube in the convenience of your own home. At some point, those shows just stopped giving people like me a reason to be there. It has nothing to do with the popularity of the hobby and everything to do with the show owners and vendors losing their focus on giving people a reason to show up.

4) Whether you were able to sell some ancient, worn-out tools on Craigslist. Most of us don't bother shopping for vintage tools on Craigslist. There are lots of good reasons, including (a) most sellers think their old, worn-out tools should sell for 2/3 the cost of a new one, so it's a waste of time; (b) tools made in the last 5-10 years have had dramatic improvements in dust collection and other features that make older tools much less appealing; (c) companies like Festool have figured out that people are willing to pay more money for a higher level of precision, convenience, safety, and features than the type of vintage stuff described by the OP. I know lots of woodworkers. None of them are looking to buy decades-old tools on Craigslist.

Sure, there are lots of things that have changed over the last couple decades, and a lot of things that don't do as well as they did years ago. It's not a function of the hobby dwindling. It's simply the market forces that weed out failing methods in favor of a better mousetrap.

[Kelby Van Patten]

It is declining, but I think it is also changing into something else with youtube and the maker movement.
Time will tell ... but check out this graph on google trends for woodworking searches...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=woodworking

You are not reading that graph correctly. As the site explains:

"The numbers that appear show total searches for a term relative to the total number of searches done on Google over time. A line trending downward means that a search term's relative popularity is decreasing. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the total number of searches for that term is decreasing. It just means its popularity is decreasing compared to other searches."

So, here's what you can discern from the chart. The percentage of google searches that are for the term "woodworking" as opposed to some other term is about 1/5 of what it was in 2005. However, it is also true that the total number of Google searches has increased far more than five times since 2005. So, the total number of searches for the term "woodworking" is actually larger today than in 2005, but other search terms have become even more popular. That doesn't reflect a decrease in the popularity of a hobby; it simply shows that other interests are growing even faster (to the extent internet searches reflect interest).

[Frederick Skelly]

So, here's what you can discern from the chart. The percentage of google searches that are for the term "woodworking" as opposed to some other term is about 1/5 of what it was in 2005. However, it is also true that the total number of Google searches has increased far more than five times since 2005. So, the total number of searches for the term "woodworking" is actually larger today than in 2005, but other search terms have become even more popular. That doesn't reflect a decrease in the popularity of a hobby; it simply shows that other interests are growing even faster (to the extent internet searches reflect interest).

That's how I'd interpret the graph too Kelby.

My theory - and right now that's all it is - is that whatever growth there is, is due to folks approaching retirement age and taking up the hobby. I do get regular evidence of that from posts here and at the shows and from people I know who take classes regularly. I think these newbies are buying power and hand tools, accounting for some of the growth boutique toolmakers are seeing.

Other observations...... I'm not yet convinced that the growth in the number of boutique toolmakers mean there are a bunch more woodworkers. I'd have to see numbers describing the volume that all of these guys together are doing. Also, I don't personally see a lot of evidence that younger people are joining this hobby. But maybe I'm looking in the wrong places. I have been to one makerspace and it was folks under 40, using CNC routers to make things. I found that encouraging. But again, I don't know how much real growth that's generating in the hobby.

FWIW.
Fred

[Keith Pleas]

As far as retail outlets, there are far more Woodcraft and Rockler stores today than there were 20 years ago.
And Home Depot and Lowe's. Not woodworking outlets per se, but they sell woodworking tools. And the Internet - everyone from Lee Valley to Amazon. And then there's Harbor Freight - I'll bet everyone on this forum owns something from HF even if it's something trivial, but they also sell a lot of entry-level woodworking machines.

[Keith Pleas]

It is declining, but I think it is also changing into something else with youtube and the maker movement.
Time will tell ... but check out this graph on google trends for woodworking searches...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=woodworking
I agree on the changing....and the maker movement. And while we identify with the term "woodworking", I'm not sure that's a great search term to gauge interest. How about "bandsaw"?

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bandsaw&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B7 (http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=bandsaw&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B7)

Unlike "table saw", or many other tools that can be used in construction, a bandsaw seems like the quintessential woodworking tool. And look at that "Regional Interest" map - what's with those kiwis? :)

[Irvin Gomez]

Paul Bunyan is not dead - he just has acquired a new lifestyle that leaves less time for wood-related things. He is very happy taking night classes at the local community college - he really likes computer graphics. People have moved into a more 'urban' life, even on rural areas and woodworking is feeling the 'technological pinch'.

Why sand by hand when a a great ROS plus VAC will do it better in a fraction of the time? Why spend countless hours mastering the game of chess when video games provide the same pleasure with minimal effort? Why do woodworking when there are many other things to do that are equally satisfying, less messy and much cheaper?

It's called 'change'. And it's a good thing.

[Frederick Skelly]

Paul Bunyan is not dead - he just has acquired a new lifestyle that leaves less time for wood-related things. He is very happy taking night classes at the local community college - he really likes computer graphics. People have moved into a more 'urban' life, even on rural areas and woodworking is feeling the 'technological pinch'.

Why sand by hand when a a great ROS plus VAC will do it better in a fraction of the time? Why spend countless hours mastering the game of chess when video games provide the same pleasure with minimal effort? Why do woodworking when there are many other things to do that are equally satisfying, less messy and much cheaper?

It's called 'change'. And it's a good thing.

I guess I don't follow what Paul Bunyon going to community college has to do with any of this Irvin. :D:D:D

I definitely agree with you that folks' interests have shifted.
Fred

[jack duren]

I believe that the hobby still exists. But when the economy crashed many were forced out of there homes and the garage shop tools got sold. My daughter use to rent a nice apartment with a garage. It was easy to tell when the garages were opened in the neighborhood who once lived in large house now crammed into an apartment by the amount of furniture,etc in the garage.

Years ago I use to go by pawn shops weekly. I was amazed at the amount of routers,hand tools,etc that were available at the time. Not so much anymore.

[Alan Lilly]

I wish google also had a popularity measurement instead of just trends. That way you could truly judge the relative popularity of woodworking instead simply the trend. The trend of festool ... looks good...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=festool

Here is the trend of woodworking searches on youtube over time...

http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=woodworking&gprop=youtube&cmpt=q&tz=Etc%2FGMT%2B7

[Rick Potter]

To me, it kind of depends on what your definition of the word 'woodworker' is.

In my 20's and 30's, I had a cheap used Atlas table saw, Monkey Ward RAS, Sears band saw, and a workbench....which I paid a total of $125 for. Was I a woodworker?

No way! I had no school classes in the trades, no experience other than my dad always had a cheap Sears table saw, which I never used as a kid.

I had the tools because I was a home owner, with the cheapest home I could find, because that is what I could afford. Homes like this always need work, so I invested 'sweat equity' to improve my situation. I cut paneling freehand on the table saw, fixed walls, added rooms, built rudimentary bookcases, and garage cabinets. What I never, ever did, was make something for fun. I was a do it yourselfer.

Gradually over the years I became interested in making better quality stuff for the home, and got interested in woodworking as a hobby. I suspect a lot of us older guys got started the same way.

[Irvin Gomez]

I guess I don't follow what Paul Bunyon going to community college has to do with any of this Irvin. :D:D:D
Fred

Bunyan, the prototypical lumberjack, like the rest of society, has gone more 'techno' and less 'manual'....