"Best" Table Saw?

[Jeff Radwill]

First off, I am new to the forum. I have done loads of research but have not been able to find a good answer. I have been to brick stores where the sales guy tries to steer me to what he thinks I need, or what he wants to sell. Some sales people (St. Charles Rock Road Rockler in St. Louis) have even been rude when I questioned the logic behind their sales pitch.

Most sites I have visited have a bias (or so it seems), so I thought I would ask this group of experts what you all consider to be the "Best" table saw for fine woodworking. I'm not talking about a contractor saw. I want a GREAT saw. One that is above all Accurate and Precise. Following that, accuracy and precision must be Repeatable from cut to cut and setup to setup. Great dust collection capability is required.

I have 220 vac outlets and am willing to put in the needed dust collection system once I get that figured out.
I wish I could say "Money is no object", but I can't. Having said that, I would rather pay more for quality machinery. You know what I'm talking about, right?

So, please, if you have a few minutes to give me your very best recommendations (and the reasons behind them), I would greatly appreciate it.

All the best,

Jeff

[mreza Salav]

Welcome to the forum. It might help if you tell a little bit more about what you do (hobby/business), what size of saw you are considering (contractor saw, cabinet saw, a small or big slider, etc), and if you are talking about new or used. Also, the approximate budget you have in mind.
You will get many suggestions. In terms of cabinet saws the top ranking ones are Powermatic and Sawstop. Both seem to be good saws (sawstop comes with their unique safety technology). There are also entry level slider saws but their prices start at the top end of cabinet saws.
If I was going to buy a new cabinet saw Sawstop would be my choice (either their PCS model or ICS). They are very well built, very accurate and solid, and have good dust collection.

[Larry Browning]

I've got my popcorn, this could get good!
Welcome to the Creek Jeff.

You do know that your question is just shy of "Who is the best candidate for President?" don't you? We don't get to talk about politics around here, so this is the next best thing.

[Chris Fournier]

"Best" threads are useless. Tell us what you want to do and we can suggest options for you. Define fine woodworking and tell us why you have limited your quest to a table saw!

[Kelby Van Patten]

The saws most of us use look like toys next to some of the very high-end $15k+ sliders out there. But I'm guessing you don't really want something like that.

For $3-5k, you can get a really nice 5 HP Sawstop or Powermatic. Both will be extremely accurate and precise; Sawstop adds very nice safety features and some of the best dust collection available in tablesaws. As between Sawstop and Powermatic, you will pay more for the same horsepower on the Sawstop because of those added features.

Once you get over $5k, you can find some entry-level European sliding tablesaws. Laguna, Minimax, and Hammer are all very high quality saws, but pay close attention to the specs because they vary in subtle but very important ways. (For example, I prefer the Dado King dado set, and when I bought my saw, I think the Laguna was the only European saw that worked with that dado set.)

Over $10k, you can start looking at the next level of sliders. Felder makes great saws in that price range, but I don't know much about that market. It's way over my budget.

[Ben Rivel]

I just bought a new saw a few months ago and from my research and my budget the SawStop 3HP PCS was the best saw out there. So thats what I went with. If youre going to buy new and not going for a slider then IMO SawStop cabinet saws are the best way to go. They really arent that much more than their competitors and offer a lot more quality and safety wise.

[Cary Falk]

I have a Grizzly G1023RL. It is accurate, precise, and repeatable. I would put it's cut up against any saw and you would not be able to tell the difference. I would guess it wold not appear on anybody's best list. It is the best saw for me for many reasons

[paul cottingham]

If I were to lose my mind and buy a tablesaw (handsaw and bandsaw guy) I would consider a slider or a Sawstop for safety. My preference would be a slider, 'cause I'm not keen on the predatory proprietariness of Sawstop, and I think a slider has more utility.

[Rick Potter]

I won't get into the saw choice, but I will mention that for repeatability, there are digital fence gages that fit most saws, and will get you within thousandths of an inch, or centimeter (your choice). Wixey is the brand I am familiar with, although I had a Felder slider with one from the factory (it was an add on though). They work great.

[Prashun Patel]

I think you should define a budget.

I like my saw stop becaus is has the safety features and all the fit and finish of the other good saws in its price range.

You will find that most of the popular cabinet saws are accurate for fine woodworking. Most people are happy with their saws. These threads tend to get heated as everyone defends their own choice of saw.

[Robert Engel]

You'll need a budget of at least $2500 to get into the commercial cabinet type saws.

IMO any of the top brands (Jet, PM, SS, Unisaw) 3HP cabinet saw basically all be about the same. That being said, I don't think a PM is worth the extra money.
Same with SS unless you're freaked out by the thought of losing a finger (which you can even easier on a miter saw or bandsaw IMO).

I can only comment on the saw I have (Jet 10" Xacta) which has been a great saw for me. I've never had to touch it. Every time I check it for alignment is it dead on and has stayed that way for over 12 years.

[Jesse Busenitz]

YOU asked...... My preference would be an older PM66 or Delta Unisaw if money is tight. If you can swing a little more I'd definitely be open to a Sawstop or even a slider if sheet goods make into your shop. Make sure you get something with a good fence! I still remember the days where I moved the fence every time with a tape measure!:mad:

[Cody Colston]

On just about (if not all) of the cabinet saws, accuracy is dependent on set-up. They will all give good, accurate cuts if you have the saw tuned correctly, the correct (sharp) blade installed and use proper technique. Do not rely on the factory settings. As for repeatability, an Incra fence is probably the ultimate there, although your methods of work can take care of the repeatability issue, also.

Building fine furniture (furniture with proven, well crafted joinery, functionability and a pleasing appearance) is reliant on the skills of the craftsman, not the machines used. There are some people on this forum who could craft fine furniture with a pocket knife, given enough time.

That said, I'll echo the above replies...define what it is you want to build, your experience level and your budget. That will go a long way in getting usable advice.

[Larry Browning]

Can someone explain to me the difference between accurate and precise? Since the requirement is for the saw to be both accurate AND precise. I think you would be hard pressed to find a saw that was accurate but not precise. Those two words seem to me to be synonyms in this context.
Also, as others have said, just about any saw can be adjusted to cut accurately, I think maybe the better question would be how well does the saw hold that adjustment.

[Tom Ewell]

Regardless of which saw is chosen, repeatability is dependent of proper setup and technique.

Going into a project, plan ahead so dead nuts repeatability requirements are not as critical, setup for a cut and cut all parts needed with that setup, move on to the next setup.

Going back to repeat a setup for a part gone lost or other reason is the only real reason for dead nuts repeatability within a project.

Fixing mishap or just-off stuff is part of the craft, expecting a machine to do it for you without acquired skills just doesn't happen. Even the best of us misread a scale once in a while or forget to re-calibrate a digital device after a tune up or a dead battery. It's all part of the fun.

[scott spencer]

"Best" really boils down to your definition of that term.

"Good" full size saws with belt drive induction motors start just north of $500....Delta 36-725, R4512, Cman 21833. The compromises are things like steel wings, two piece fence rails, smaller motors, lesser quality, etc....they'll cut well and accurately if set up with a good blade. The better hybrid saws with full enclosures, nice steel fences, solid cast wings, etc., get you into the $800-$1800 range. If you're going to spend much over $1k, since you've got 220v, IMHO the best bang for the buck is one of the 3hp Grizzly industrial cabinet saws (G1023RL/G0690)....they are much more substantial under the hood, obviously more powerful, have more mass, and are generally just nicer to use than the lighter 120v saws. If you want better yet, and safer, the Saw Stop PCS 3hp with the upgraded T-Glide fence is a great saw that won't amputate your fingers...~ $3k.

[John TenEyck]

Can someone explain to me the difference between accurate and precise? Since the requirement is for the saw to be both accurate AND precise. I think you would be hard pressed to find a saw that was accurate but not precise. Those two words seem to me to be synonyms in this context.
Also, as others have said, just about any saw can be adjusted to cut accurately, I think maybe the better question would be how well does the saw hold that adjustment.


Accurate is how close you are to the real value, so if you set your saw's fence to 1.000" but the real value is 1.1" then it's not very accurate. Precision is how close the fence comes back to the same position each time you set it there. So if you set the fence at 1.000" ten times with an error of only 0.001" you would have high precision. Each term is independent of the other.

John

[Larry Browning]

I will stir the pot now.
I don't think I would ever want a sawstop. I have looked at them and even though they are very well built and function exceptionally well as a saw, the safety feature just seems like a great big hassle to me. You must consider the material you are cutting and determine if it will trigger the brake, then if it will, you have to turn off the firing mechanism. I promise you, about the 3rd false firing, I would be tossing that thing out the door.
I will stick with my trusty G1023L, following good safety practices and taking my chances.

Signed, 4 fingers Larry.

[Larry Browning]

Accurate is how close you are to the real value, so if you set your saw's fence to 1.000" but the real value is 1.1" then it's not very accurate. Precision is how close the fence comes back to the same position each time you set it there. So if you set the fence at 1.000" ten times with an error of only 0.001" you would have high precision. Each term is independent of the other.

John
So you are then saying that precision and repeatability are the synonyms then?

[Jim Becker]

For me, the "best" saw is a Euro slider. I'd not likely go back to a North American design cabinet saw without regrets now that I'm used to the slider and its capabilities. And yes, one component of that is repeatability and precision.

In the end, each individual woodworker has to think about what they want to do with the saw and then "design" the solution based on their functional needs as well as their individual desires. There are many choices available...

[richard poitras]

Saw Stop (cabinet saw) for he high end of your price and Grizzly (cabinet saw) for the lower end of the price. Both with work great and I would only get for the Saw Stop if I wanted the safty feature. Other than that, it would be one of the Grizzly cabinet saws.

[Larry Browning]

Saw Stop (cabinet saw) for he high end of your price and Grizzly (cabinet saw) for the lower end of the price. Both with work great and I would only get for the Saw Stop if I wanted the safty feature. Other than that, it would be one of the Grizzly cabinet saws.


I must have missed it. What is his price range?

[John TenEyck]

So you are then saying that precision and repeatability are the synonyms then?

No, repeatability would be between two people setting the fence and how close their results are.

John

[Montgomery Scott]

Go for a Felder or Martin. No one will argue that they aren't the pinnacle of engineering and manufacturing quality.

[Larry Browning]

No, repeatability would be between two people setting the fence and how close their results are.

John But otherwise, the same as precision. Just more people involved. I see.....

[William M Johnson]

For breaking down sheet good the best saw is a track saw. I own a SawStop and PM66.

Bill

[Ben Rivel]

So you are then saying that precision and repeatability are the synonyms then?
I look at it like precision is the ability to get the cut where and how you intend it to be. That includes the blade, guide/fence/etc, and table being flat, etc. All parts of the machine that have to be precisely setup and of good quality to do so.

Repeatability is being able to go back to that machine time after time and get the same cut over and over after the blade/fence/guide/etc has been moved and then moved back. Only a good quality, precisely setup tool can give repeatable results every time its used regardless of what it was used for in between times.

Those in my mind are two very different things where repeatability does depend on precision.

[Larry Browning]

I look at it like precision is the ability to get the cut where and how you intend it to be. That includes the blade, guide/fence/etc, and table being flat, etc. All parts of the machine that have to be precisely setup and of good quality to do so.

Repeatability is being able to go back to that machine time after time and get the same cut over and over after the blade/fence/guide/etc has been moved and then moved back. Only a good quality, precisely setup tool can give repeatable results every time its used regardless of what it was used for in between times.

Those in my mind are two very different things where repeatability does depend on precision. So, are you saying that you believe that accuracy and precision are indeed synonyms? If not, what is the difference between them?

[Ben Rivel]

So, are you saying that you believe that accuracy and precision are indeed synonyms? If not, what is the difference between them?
I just explained the difference. Sorry maybe I didnt explain it well enough. One is dependent upon the other in one direction so it could be said they are related, but they are not as I see it the same thing, or synonyms as youve chosen to call it.

[Larry Browning]

I just explained the difference. Sorry maybe I didnt explain it well enough. One is dependent upon the other in one direction so it could be said they are related, but they are not as I see it the same thing, or synonyms as youve chosen to call it.
Sorry Ben, I have reread your post twice, and I don't see where you even mentioned accuracy. I totally get the difference between precision and repeatability and completely agree with you, but I was asking about if you see a difference between the word accuracy and the word precision.

I would think that accuracy and repeatability would be a by product of precision. Because without precision neither could be achieved, and with it, the other 2 are the result of it.

[Ben Rivel]

Sorry Ben, I have reread your post twice, and I don't see where you even mentioned accuracy. I totally get the difference between precision and repeatability and completely agree with you, but I was asking about if you see a difference between the word accuracy and the word precision.
Oh crap. Sorry I messed that up then. I do feel precision and accuracy are the same thing. Where I got repeatability from I have no idea! Must have gotten confused reading the other posts. I apologize, my mistake.

[Mike Cutler]

So, are you saying that you believe that accuracy and precision are indeed synonyms? If not, what is the difference between them?


Larry

People will interchange the use of the words based on their own personal and professional experience.
One word to remove is "Accuracy". Without some type of traceability to a NIST standard, you have no accuracy. It can be a lot of things, but without a NIST cert, it is technically not accurate.
Repeatability would be the ability to return the device to the same "standard" setting after it has changed and reset.
Precision would involve the mechanical, or electronic hysterisis of any device, better known as "slop".
The table saw, in and of itself, will not have an accuracy attribute other than the blade,and in that case hysterisis would be more of a factor than any other component. It is the fence where any of the attributes the OP is looking for, that could be expressed as accuracy, repeatability, and precision, are concerned would be the determining factor.

There really is no "best saw". Each person has their own unique requirements for the machine and what is best fr one person may not be the best for another, but the saws that would be in the "best category", for me, purchased new, would all be sliders. If I wanted to confine it to a cabinet style saw, it would be whichever one exhibited the least amount of vibration and hysterisis, at the blade, while under load. It would probably weigh at least a 1/2ton and be over 50 years old. I can deal with the fence issue seperately.

[Larry Browning]

Did I hijack this thread? I didn't mean to!

Let me get back to the OP's intended topic.
I have a Grizzly G1023L and it is the perfect saw for me. It has all the power I need, holds it's adjustments very well, and here is the best part, I could afford it! I have had it for about 15 years and it still cuts as good as the day it was new. Are there better saws out there? I'm sure there are, but this one suits my needs perfectly and I have no desire for something else.

Here is another piece of advice, don't over think this decision, there are many machines that will meet your needs, pick one and don't look back. BTW:This advice is very hard for me to follow and I say it to myself all the time, but it doesn't do much good!

[Chris Padilla]

The best bang for your money is likely a Grizzly table saw. If you are just starting out and want a good saw at a good price, they are hard to beat.

I bought a new Grizzly 1023 (their standard 10" table saw) back in 2000 and it is still running fine today. In fact, I'd like it to die just so I have an excuse to dump a lot more money on a slider or maybe a fancy SawStop. However it keeps on going and doing just fine. Consider upgrading to a nicer fence like an Incra on whatever saw you end up going with (assuming it can take one). That was probably the best thing I ever did to my table saw. Love love love that fence.

And further assuming you are a hobbyist, weekend woodwhacker, shadtree lumberjock, newbie-ish sawdust maker, I really don't think you need anything more than a 3 HP motor on your saw. That is exactly what I am and I've yet to have ever bogged my saw down and If I do, my bad for using a dull blade and/or poor/unsafe sawing technique. :)

[Bill Space]

I am another one who feels the Grizzly G1023 series saw is the best one for him. I bought mine about three years ago. The 5HP motor of the G1023RLWX was not much more money so I opted for that, mainly because I had been used to running my old Craftsman saw until it tripped the overload numerous times. I figured this time I would buy something that would loaf rather than struggle when I was working it hard. I also like the wider cast iron right side wing that works as a router table.

The G1023 is perfect for me. I did put my Unifence on it, so I do not know how good the fence that supplied with it is. There are better saws out there I suppose, but it is probably hard to find one that give a bigger bang for the buck...

Bill

[Mike O'Keefe]

I'd go for older Unisaw. For a new saw I would look at a Northfield Machinery. Mike

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Accurate is how close you are to the real value, so if you set your saw's fence to 1.000" but the real value is 1.1" then it's not very accurate. Precision is how close the fence comes back to the same position each time you set it there. So if you set the fence at 1.000" ten times with an error of only 0.001" you would have high precision. Each term is independent of the other.

John

John nailed this one. I do see multiple definitions and opinions on the definitions. but.... To a Scientist, the definitions are clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Accuracy: When it says 1.000, is it really 1.00

Precision: That repeatability thing. Do I get the same value every time?

[Larry Browning]

Another thing you might want to consider is to get yourself a basic but well built new or used saw and then trick it out with new after market stuff, like a fancy fence system, overhead blade guard, slider table extension, etc. Maybe a nice older PM or Unisaw and go crazy with upgrades. That really sound like a lot of fun to me. I think that's what I'd do if I was in the market for a new saw.

[Andrew Hughes]

Well I think I have the best table saw it really fits my work perfect.I use it for batch ripping mostly.It will take a 12 inch blade runs very smooth and quite.Fence is dead flat and square to the table.

[Larry Browning]

John nailed this one. I do see multiple definitions and opinions on the definitions. but.... To a Scientist, the definitions are clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Accuracy: When it says 1.000, is it really 1.00

Precision: That repeatability thing. Do I get the same value every time?

So according to wikipedia precision and repeatability are synonyms. I wasn't drinking the koolaid on the different people thing .

[glenn bradley]

If I were to lose my mind and buy a tablesaw (handsaw and bandsaw guy) I would consider a slider or a Sawstop for safety. My preference would be a slider, 'cause I'm not keen on the predatory proprietariness of Sawstop, and I think a slider has more utility.


Hmmm, just how open and flexible do you think slider platforms are? :D Sliders are definitely a good choice (but not for me). I would enjoy having one (but cannot) and am jealous when I watch a video of one even though I am very happy with my current saw. :)

As mentioned, the question is way too open. Budget, actual use examples and so forth will cause one saw to be better than another and vice versa.

[John Lanciani]

... For a new saw I would look at a Northfield Machinery. Mike

Seriously? Northfield's smallest current production saw weighs #1700, spins a 14" blade, and probably starts out north of $8000. Hardly a valid recommendation for a new woodworker in a home shop. :confused:

[Larry Browning]

Seriously? Northfield's smallest current production saw weighs #1700, spins a 14" blade, and probably starts out north of $8000. Hardly a valid recommendation for a new woodworker in a home shop. :confused:

It sure is easy for us to spend someone else's money! I know I'm pretty good at it!

[Martin Wasner]

For a new saw I would look at a Northfield Machinery. Mike

One just sold locally on an auction recently with a rolling table for $550. It was a 1965, and a little rough looking, but so what.

[Erik Loza]

Wait til the OP logs back in and sees what has become of his question.

Erik

[Eduard Nemirovsky]

Wait til the OP logs back in and sees what has become of his question.

Erik:D:D:D
I was reading all replies and think exactly the same.
Best saw is a saw you thing is the best.
Ed.

[Gregory Carles]

Okay, I am biased. But I did do a lot of research and spent a few extra bucks to get the saw to fit my needs as an avid hobbyist.

[Larry Browning]

Wait til the OP logs back in and sees what has become of his question.

Erik


Poor guy, and it was his first post too!
He may logon, read about half of them and never come back!

[Ben Rivel]

Okay, I am biased. But I did do a lot of research and spent a few extra bucks to get the saw to fit my needs as an avid hobbyist.
Same here. Get those rails on that saw!

[John Sanford]

For a new 10" blade cabinet saw, your best bets are the PM2000 and the SawStop ICS. Precision/repeatability is as much a matter of setup (as many have noted) and the fence you have, as well as the measuring tools you use for blade height and bevel. You can frequently see these, get your mitts on them, and purchase them through your local dealers.

For more money, you can move to European style slider by Felder or Minimax/SCMI, as either a stand alone machine or part of a combination machine. (Note: If I were getting a Euro slider, I'd almost certainly get a Saw/Shaper.) Euro sliders can come equipped with digital readouts for blade height and bevel, although I don't know at what price point that feature starts to become available. The cabinet saw/slider argument has been going on for quite some time, and is somewhat akin to the SUV / Crossover argument. Both will get you where you want to go, which is "better" depends a lot on the route you choose. Neither Rockler nor Woodcraft carry these saws. If you live in a populated enough area, you may be able to find a "woodworking" store that caters to the trades that will have a Euro slider you can check out.

For even more money, you can go for a Martin, Altendorf, Format or one of the other very expensive European sliders that are built to be run in production facilities for years. A well heeled hobbyist who intends to spend a lot of time in the shop is likely buying a cool tool for cool tool's sake if they go beyond the Felder level. Felders/MiniMax are not the pinnacle of engineering, but they are close enough for non-commercial work.

Keep in mind that whatever it is you want, there will be tradeoffs to get it. Thus far, nobody has invented the tablesaw that uses a single AA battery (one that lasts for 10 years of continuous use), folds up into the space of a paperback book, generates no dust, cuts through 8" thick ironwood, and leaves a glue line edge.

[Kevin Womer]

The only advice I wish I had listened to was that to get the saw that makes you happy and the one you can afford. I ended up with a Sawstop, but after buying two others before I did. I could have saved a lot of money in the long run, instead of buying cheaper alternatives which were nowhere near the quality of the SS. Happy hunting and best of luck!

[Roy Harding]

The "best table saw" is the one which most closely meets your desired specifications, and is within your budget.

[David Zaret]

i went through this a few years ago. "best" is totally dependent on what you can afford and what you do with it. i like making big kitchens, so for me, i went with a martin slider. kept the general 650 cabinet saw, and added the slider. of course, that implies a big commitment of space, three phase power, and ... cost. but for me, that was the "best" saw.

you can spend serious money on a slider. the cost gets insane as you add computer controls and such... as a one-man shop, i thought that stuff was unnecessary, so i got a "less expensive" martin (ha!). anyway, the answer to your question requires introspection of your commitment to the craft, and the time/quality/cost balance for projects.

good luck with your purchase!

[Jim Dwight]

I think it takes awhile to know what you like to do and how you want to work. I've been making sawdust for over 40 years at this point and am still learning.

I am quite happy with a little Ryobi BT3100 that cost $300 about 10 years ago. I've built a bunch of hardwood furniture with it for myself and my kids. I took the extension rails off when I got a track saw and I like the combination of a little saw and a tracksaw a lot better than my saw with 60 inch rip capacity. It is just easier to move the saw when the wood is big and heavy. Maybe a slider solves this too but I don't have the budget or the space for a slider.

It has been said but I will repeat, accuracy and precision when cutting wood are not a function of your tools. I could probably make decent furniture with the cheapo direct drive Ryobi I have as an extra saw. It would be more challenging because I would have to check the rip fence all the time and that would probably get it smashed at some point but if I was patient enough it will cut wood. Getting parts that fit together is some tools but a lot figuring out the right order to cut pieces and learning to solve the issues the wood gives you.

Stated another way, a really nice table saw will not turn you into a woodworker. If the OP is a newbie, that does suggest SS. Anybody new at doing things will make mistakes. Even after I knew what to do I made mistakes that resulted in stiches a couple times (but not on a tablesaw). But a new spiffy SS will have issues when the board starts warping as it is cut just like my little Ryobi. With a big motor comes the potential for more powerful kickback.

I wouldn't and haven't invested heavily in any of my tools. My goal is always to get a tool good enough to do what I want to do.

[Ronald Blue]

If the OP returns he might be surprised at the way the post has gone. One thing that has been said by several is that regardless how much you invest in a tablesaw that by itself won't make you a skilled woodworker. As with many things the function of any tablesaw requires interaction from the operator. As Jim previously stated even an inexpensive saw can do an adequate enough job to turn out some nice work. Actually I tend to think you will learn more from a marginally built saw because you have to be more meticulous checking the setup and if the result is what is desired. But it also will give you a better idea of what features make a good saw. With no real guidelines you can expect the shotgun style broad spectrum answers. Even if you lay out a dollar amount you have in mind you will probably have those that still try to get you to spend far more. Good luck and hope you find some useful information here.

[David Kumm]

I agree with the advice that recommends finding something decent that won't break the bank and learn what you want and what you need. Your first decision is more likely to be wrong than right until you have the experience. All 10" saws are built to a price point so best will be determined by how it fits your needs, not build quality. Dave

[John Sincerbeaux]

The "best" saw I ever saw was a saw I saw in Arkansas. And if you have a saw that can out saw the saw I saw in Arkansas, I would like to see your saw saw.
I think it was a Martin😀

[Larry Browning]

The "best" saw I ever saw was a saw I saw in Arkansas. And if you have a saw that can out saw the saw I saw in Arkansas, I would like to see your saw saw.
I think it was a Martin


"I see...." said the blind man as he picked up the hammer and saw.

[scott spencer]

Poor guy, and it was his first post too!
He may logon, read about half of them and never come back!

Now I'm wondering if it was his last post too! He's MIA....

[Andrew Joiner]

I have a Grizzly G1023RL. It is accurate, precise, and repeatable. I would put it's cut up against any saw and you would not be able to tell the difference. I would guess it wold not appear on anybody's best list. It is the best saw for me for many reasons

I agree with Cary. I've had the identical Shop Fox version of the Grizzly G1023RL since 2004. It's a great saw for the money.

I had a Powermatic 66 for years and the 1023 performs the same. I used the 66 in a commercial shop and had to replace USA made motors twice in 10 years. My 1023 has only seen hobby use and about 1/3 as many hours as the 66, but no repairs or new motors have been needed.

[Erik Loza]

OK, serious now: If I was in the market for a jobsite saw, I would buy the Bosch Reaxx. If I was in the market for a cabinet saw, I would probably get the SS PCS. If I was going to spend $5K or thereabouts, I would get a real Euro slider. Everyone says, "Tell me what's the best", but honestly, it comes down to price point 9 times out of 10.

Erik

[Martin Wasner]

OK, serious now: If I was in the market for a jobsite saw, I would buy the Bosch Reaxx. If I was in the market for a cabinet saw, I would probably get the SS PCS. If I was going to spend $5K or thereabouts, I would get a real Euro slider. Everyone says, "Tell me what's the best", but honestly, it comes down to price point 9 times out of 10.

Erik


But who can have just one?

[Mike Ontko]

But who can have just one?

Oh sure, stir the pot even more :)

[Patrick Curry]

OK, serious now: If I was in the market for a jobsite saw, I would buy the Bosch Reaxx. If I was in the market for a cabinet saw, I would probably get the SS PCS. If I was going to spend $5K or thereabouts, I would get a real Euro slider. Everyone says, "Tell me what's the best", but honestly, it comes down to price point 9 times out of 10

IMO, which isn't based on hours of hands on experience so this is of little value, a new cabinet saw should either ship from Grizzly or Sawstop. The brands in between would be hard FOR ME to justify by price and value. And at the SS price point I'd go used slider, or save a few bucks with a 28" top grizzly and then toss in a Mikita track saw. Fun to think about. Apparently we have more interest in the question than the OP

[Erik Loza]

But who can have just one?


Hahaha, indeed.

Erik

[Larry Browning]

Well, let's see.... Best I can recall, our recommendation is that Jeff should get a Grizzly-Northfield-Sawstop basic top-of-the line Euro slider jobsite track saw and then upgrade with an Incra fence system. Is that about right???? Oh yeah, all the while being accurate, precise, and repeatable.

[Tom Ewell]

Apparently we have more interest in the question than the OP
The OP asked for opinions and that's what he's getting.:p

[Martin Wasner]

Oh sure, stir the pot even more :)

I'm here to help... errr, yeah, help.

[Jim Becker]

The real answer is that you buy the one that your significant other permits you to buy... ;)

[Mike Ontko]

The real answer is that you buy the one that your significant other permits you to buy... ;)

Ding! Ding! Ding! I think we have a winner!

[Steve Demuth]

Can someone explain to me the difference between accurate and precise? Since the requirement is for the saw to be both accurate AND precise.

Accuracy refers to fidelity to a true reference. Precision refers to the granularity of the claimed measurement. So, take your best Starrett ruler, ruled to 1/64th of an inch. Its precision is 1/128th, assuming you have good enough eyes to read half markings. Being Starrett, it is also accurate to the same - meaning the 31/64ths mark is actually 31/64th from zero, to within 1/128th. Now heat the thing up in a furnace and stretch and abuse it. It's still precise to 1/128th inch, because you can still read a measurement that finely. But it's no longer accurate to anything close - you might read 31/64ths, but actually be 33/64th from zero.

[Rich Riddle]

You'd cause less commotion asking who among us has the prettiest wife.

[Larry Browning]

Accuracy refers to fidelity to a true reference. Precision refers to the granularity of the claimed measurement. So, take your best Starrett ruler, ruled to 1/64th of an inch. Its precision is 1/128th, assuming you have good enough eyes to read half markings. Being Starrett, it is also accurate to the same - meaning the 31/64ths mark is actually 31/64th from zero, to within 1/128th. Now heat the thing up in a furnace and stretch and abuse it. It's still precise to 1/128th inch, because you can still read a measurement that finely. But it's no longer accurate to anything close - you might read 31/64ths, but actually be 33/64th from zero.


And just when I though we had beat this dog to death.......
One thing is clear, the meaning of these 3 terms and how they relate to each other is very unclear. Maybe more "accurately", The meaning of these 3 terms is clear to each of us in different ways.

[Larry Browning]

I just checked, and the OP has not logged on since he created this thread 3 days ago.

[scott spencer]

I just checked, and the OP has not logged on since he created this thread 3 days ago.


Hit and run....

[glenn bradley]

I just checked, and the OP has not logged on since he created this thread 3 days ago.

It was bait. On another forum a couple of guys bet that those goofs over at Sawmill Creek would rack up at least 50 posts on a dumb thread like this. One of the guys won $1 on John Sanford's post.

[Larry Browning]

It was bait. On another forum a couple of guys bet that those goofs over at Sawmill Creek would rack up at least 50 posts on a dumb thread like this. One of the guys won $1 on John Sanford's post.

Oh, that's funny!

[Chris Padilla]

While I think this thread is heading off-topic, I'm willing to keep it open but please stay on-topic.

[Greg Parrish]

Best is the one I have .................................................. .... For me anyway. :)

i bought a fully restored 1972 powermatic 66 which was converted to single phase with a new leeson 3hp USA motor and included both short and long rails with new fence and miter. Only thing it needed was a motor cover and blade guard. Ordered a shark guard blade guard and a plastic motor cover and good to go. About 1/2 price of a new powermatic and mine was made in the US. In other words check out your area craigslist.

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-C.jpg

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-F.jpg

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-D.jpg

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-E.jpg

[Andrew Hughes]

Best is the one I have .................................................. .... For me anyway. :)

i bought a fully restored 1972 powermatic 66 which was converted to single phase with a new leeson 3hp USA motor and included both short and long rails with new fence and miter. Only thing it needed was a motor cover and blade guard. Ordered a shark guard blade guard and a plastic motor cover and good to go. About 1/2 price of a new powermatic and mine was made in the US. In other words check out your area craigslist.

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-C.jpg

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-F.jpg

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-D.jpg

http://www.vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/images/12368-E.jpg
Now this is a great looking saw.

[Jerry Olexa]

Had my DELTA TS over 20 years....Dependable, accurate and serves my needs..the trend today however is SAWSTOP mostly for safety

[Allan Speers]

The BEST table saw is actually a very good Bandsaw, combined with a very good tracksaw system. :)



End thread? :D

[John Sanford]

OK, serious now: If I was in the market for a jobsite saw, I would buy the Bosch Reaxx. ... Erik
Except.
You can't buy Bosch Reaxx. Not yet, at least here in the US of A. Reportedly (http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/table-saws/coming-soon-the-bosch-reaxx-saw_o.aspx), Bosch is now promising a release date of July 1.

[Greg Works]

Jeff,

I've had good experiences with the sales guys at Rockler in St. Louis. Always very courteous. I'm sure they were trying to be helpful. Sometimes they're limited to what they have to sell. Sometimes they just don't have exactly what I want.


Greg

[Kyle Iwamoto]

It was bait. On another forum a couple of guys bet that those goofs over at Sawmill Creek would rack up at least 50 posts on a dumb thread like this. One of the guys won $1 on John Sanford's post.


Come on guys! We can get it up to 100 useless posts! Maybe win another buck?....:)

LOL

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Larry,

Again not to hijack the thread, and not to create the SS debate all over again, but what materials are you cutting on a regular basis that (if you had one) would make you need to deactivate the safety gear on a SS saw? I have had mine for over 10 years and have never once had to deactivate the safety stuff, nor have I ever caused it to trip. The only complaint I have about it is it does add to the changeover time from combo blade to Dado to combo blade again. That is a pain because you have to swap out the sensor, but it isn't bad at all, and I am very willing to spend the little extra time. Just curious Larry - what do you cut on your Grizzly that might trip a SS?

Here's my take on the whole SS debate. I play guitar, which is my #1 hobby. I have amassed a very serious collection of guitars over the years, a far more significant investment than my WW equipment. If I had some accident with any WW equipment that effected my ability to play it would be a very big issue for me. And along that line of thinking, I type code for a living. That also would be tough to work around if I had a hand out of play for any significant length of time. So any time the SS takes away from my free time is well worth it. I will change that dado sensor out a thousand times before I complain about he time it takes. I so very much appreciate the SS technology. I am very grateful for it.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that the risk on a miter saw or a bandsaw is as great as a table saw. I don't get that. I realize a miter saw poses a pretty big risk. If SS can ally their technology to a miter saw I would be in the market. At this point most of what I cross cut I do on the table saw with a sled anyway - much safer and just as easy as the miter saw. I realize the band saw can be dangerous too, but what percentage of accidents on a band saw actually end in amputation vs those on a table saw? I am betting a very low number. Yeah you might get stitches, and even might cut a tendon or two, but I doubt you are carrying body parts in a bucket to the ER the way you may be with a TS.

OP - I really apologize for the hijack. My advice to you is buy the Sawstop. Not only is it much safer, it is as good or better a saw from a fit and finish and operation standpoint than any of its competitors. So you get a great saw that has the added benefit of protecting your hands from dramatic injury. You can get a 3 HP PCS for around $3000.00 and its an easy sell to SWMBO.

Joe

Joe

[Erik Loza]

Except.
You can't buy Bosch Reaxx. Not yet, at least here in the US of A. Reportedly (http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/table-saws/coming-soon-the-bosch-reaxx-saw_o.aspx), Bosch is now promising a release date of July 1.


Interesting, did not know that.

Erik

[Harold Weaver]

Greg,
Now that is a great looking saw you have if I must say so myself.:) I hated to see her go............

Harold

[Montgomery Scott]

The BEST table saw is actually a very good Bandsaw, combined with a very good tracksaw system. :)



End thread? :D

track saw is extremely limited in what it can do and therefore doesn't come close to being able to replace it.

[Ben Rivel]

track saw is extremely limited in what it can do and therefore doesn't come close to being able to replace it.
A bandsaw and track saw combo can come pretty darn close to replacing a table saw. You just have to rethink how you do things. And it of course depends on what kind of work you do with the tools.

[Larry Browning]

track saw is extremely limited in what it can do and therefore doesn't come close to being able to replace it.


All right! I knew we could get the track saw vs table saw debate going again!!!!!
The SawStop debate is starting to heat up a bit as well.
And all in one thread! Wahoo!!!!

And just so ya know. The OP has not even logged on since he first posted this thread.

[Mike Ontko]

A bandsaw and track saw combo can come pretty darn close to replacing a table saw. You just have to rethink how you do things. And it of course depends on what kind of work you do with the tools.

While there are certainly a lot of things these two tools can do effectively and in some cases much better or safer than a table saw, there are definitely limitations...

dadoes, rabbets, cove cuts, splines, miters, box joints come to mind right away as things that can't be done as effectively, if at all, with a track saw or band saw.

[John Sincerbeaux]

All right! I knew we could get the track saw vs table saw debate going again!!!!!
The SawStop debate is starting to heat up a bit as well.
And all in one thread! Wahoo!!!!

And just so ya know. The OP has not even logged on since he first posted this thread.

Probably some prankster that just wanted to watch a bunch of woodworkers get all worked up?😄

[Tom Ewell]

Probably some prankster that just wanted to watch a bunch of woodworkers get all worked up?��

Not hard to do is it?

[Greg Parrish]

Greg,
Now that is a great looking saw you have if I must say so myself.:) I hated to see her go............

Harold

Hey there. Didn't know you were on board. I've used the saw for a few projects already but am now at a point where I'm getting ready to build the table insert for the longer rails and also get my dust collector pipe run. Slow but steadily I'm getting it all set up. Thanks again!! :)

[Alan Lightstone]

Doing my part to reach the magic 100 posts. Oh so close, I can almost taste it.

I always respond to these by mentioning that I spend way too much time seeing peoples fingers reattached from power tool accidents (just saw another one an hour ago), so for me the SawStop is a no brainer.

I'm not sure that's accurate, but since I always answer this question the same way, at least it's precise.

[Joe Beaulieu]

I always respond to these by mentioning that I spend way too much time seeing peoples fingers reattached from power tool accidents (just saw another one an hour ago), so for me the SawStop is a no brainer.


Amen to that Alan. How can anyone think it isn't worth its weight in woodworkers? I don't get the objections. I know, the typical argument is "I have worked around power tools all my life and I know how to be careful" - well, my response to that is "Then you are statistically highly likely to get hurt in the very near future. I hope its not too bad." Anyway - I don't want to turn it into that fight again.

JB

[Cody Colston]

Amen to that Alan. How can anyone think it isn't worth its weight in woodworkers? I don't get the objections. I know, the typical argument is "I have worked around power tools all my life and I know how to be careful" - well, my response to that is "Then you are statistically highly likely to get hurt in the very near future. I hope its not too bad." Anyway - I don't want to turn it into that fight again.

JB

So, do all your power cutting tools/machines have flesh sensing technology? Bandsaw?, routers?, miter saw?, Jointer? If they don't then you are also statistically highly likely to get hurt in the very near future. Just sayin...

[Ben Rivel]

On to the 99th post...

[Mike Henderson]

And 100! A milestone.

Mike

[Sorry, couldn't resist.]

[Ole Anderson]

So are we going to let it die at 100? I see the OP is still holding at 1 post to date, so either it was a bet, or we scared him off! So can anyone give a valid reason to spend two to umpteen times as much on a yellow or industrial TS as on a green G1023? Mine (3 hp) is going strong, accurate, precise and repeatable after 18 years.

[David Kumm]

It would depend on the % of 18 year old machines still operating flawlessly. Everyone has different needs, but I have worked and rehabbed lots of saws and there is a big step up in build from the unisaw and clones to the 12" 12-14 or PM 72. The old cast iron saws were an even greater step up in quality over the mid size saws. I have 75+ year old saws that still have zero runout after likely seeing commercial use when commercial meant 24-7. Doesn't mean every woodworker needs or cares, but that doesn't change the relative quality of the machines we are talking about- more like the " best of the worst " than the best. Dave

[Richard Wagner]

It worked.

[bob cohen]

I find it interesting that the most expensive and I imagine best table saws (e.g., Martin) are generally found in large production shops and used to cut sheet goods and make commercially available furniture at competitive prices. The one guy I know who has Felder equipment, makes mostly cabinets for his shop. I rarely see these over the top expensive sawsf in one-man or small shops that make original, finely crafted and detailed furniture pieces. Instead they typically have well tuned familiar cabinet saws, powermatic, saws top, delta, etc. My advice is to buy a good quality cabinet saw, and learn how to tune and use it properly.

[Marty Schlosser]

I've been listening in and am quite surprised that no one mentioned the size of a shop this (supposedly) interested OP has. I say this, because many of you have suggested a slider. Being the proud owner of a Felder K700S, I can attest that you need a fair amount of real estate in your shop to use them effectively. And to top it all off, some of you went so far as to recommend a slider/shaper combo, which requires even more space to effectively operate. The fact is that most shops don't have enough space to consider a slider, which is a shame as far as I'm concerned;).

Incidentally, IF I had enough space in both my shop and budget, I'd be purchasing a 4'X4' bed CNC router system rather than "just" a table saw.... even if it was a SS.

[Martin Wasner]

Not only is he still holding at 1 post, he hasn't even logged on since his one and only post. We didn't scare him off, he hasn't even been back to check on his post.

This thread was posted at 9:32pm on 3/39/2016. His profile shows that his last activity was at 9:33pm on 3/29/2016. This tells me that he posted the thread and then logged off and hasn't returned.

Like I said before my posts were deleted, sock puppet.

[Carroll Courtney]

Dang,guess a forum drifter--------------

[Montgomery Scott]

A bandsaw and track saw combo can come pretty darn close to replacing a table saw. You just have to rethink how you do things. And it of course depends on what kind of work you do with the tools.

And I make a lot of very small pieces or very narrow strips for segmented turning. In no wise could you rethink a way to make a track saw or bandsaw fulfill that function.

[Patrick Irish]

Incidentally, IF I had enough space in both my shop and budget, I'd be purchasing a 4'X4' bed CNC router system rather than "just" a table saw.... even if it was a SS.

Exactly! CNC controlled is the future, just need the space and the computer know how. The stuff my friends boyfriend makes on his 4ft x 4ft CNC router is insane. Curved legs, perfect miters, perfect dados, perfect mortises. Really nothing it cant do especially if it's a 3 axis. Almost feels cheating. Problem is they are huge and need space, same amount of space as a sliding panel saw needs. Since I don't have $5k to throw down on a saw, I'm saving up for a 3hp SawStop. Figure the premium to save the digits is worth it.

Many cabinet shops are moving over to full size 5x9 CNC routers. The computer outlines the cut and it's nearly perfect to hundreths of inches. Less waste in material too.

[Andrew Hughes]

I had a job for a short year out of high school working at a lumber yard.I was the only one interested in learning how to run a center line saw to cut webs and cords for trusses.Loved that saw Metra cut centerline saw.
The business went under due to computer controlled saw not far away.I had a shot at the position all I had to do was shove wood in one end and stack it coming out.And grow a beer belly.
I refused because I am a woodworker not a machine operator.
I still hold my position today there are some things machines cannot do.
A woodworker is perfectly imperfect.

[Brian Ashton]

IMO SawStop cabinet saws are the best way to go. They really arent that much more than their competitors and offer a lot more quality and safety wise.

For myself I guess I might be a bit old fashioned in that I look for longevity in a tool. I have a bandsaw that's 45 years old, a lathe that's 15 years old and they work like new, and they'll long out live me, most likely without ever having a breakdown... Big reason for that is they're simple machines. Only thing that really goes wrong with them is the belts get hard and eventually break, though the bandsaw still has its original belt. I've worked on 80 year old saws that still had the original motors. If a quality company like apple says they only expect you to get 4 years out of any of their product I doubt sawstop will be able to brag about decades of trouble free working. And what's worse, such parts become unavailable. If a bearing or belt goes on any of my machines it would take longer to drive down the the store to buy the parts than it would to put them in. Good luck with the Sawstop when the main controller craps itself and the original parts are no longer available. I would never consider a sawstop

[Brian Ashton]

I find it interesting that the most expensive and I imagine best table saws (e.g., Martin) are generally found in large production shops and used to cut sheet goods and make commercially available furniture at competitive prices. The one guy I know who has Felder equipment, makes mostly cabinets for his shop. I rarely see these over the top expensive sawsf in one-man or small shops that make original, finely crafted and detailed furniture pieces. Instead they typically have well tuned familiar cabinet saws, powermatic, saws top, delta, etc. My advice is to buy a good quality cabinet saw, and learn how to tune and use it properly.


It's something I've always noticed since I started 35 years ago. The most skilled woodworkers always had the most unremarkable shops.

[Brian Ashton]

So, do all your power cutting tools/machines have flesh sensing technology? Bandsaw?, routers?, miter saw?, Jointer? If they don't then you are also statistically highly likely to get hurt in the very near future. Just sayin...


I love the broad sweeping statistical lingo. If what you are say were true there would be millions walking around without digits.

[Chuck Hart]

What ever happened to the OP? Must have scared him away. Nobody listens anymore they just stand and scream at each other "mines the best"

[Martin Wasner]

Nobody listens anymore they just stand and scream at each other "mines the best"

You're new to the internet I take it?

[richard b miller]

i bought a used grizzly G0715P. do you have any other woodworking tools power / hand that you're looking for? like most people on the board, we've collected our "shop" over many years.

[Art Mann]

I own a cnc router and a table saw. they are not designed to do the same things. If you ever acquire one, you will see what I mean. I use them both every day. If you look around the commercial shops that use a 4 X 8 or 5 X 9 router, you will almost always see a table saw being used as well.


Incidentally, IF I had enough space in both my shop and budget, I'd be purchasing a 4'X4' bed CNC router system rather than "just" a table saw.... even if it was a SS.

[Jay Radke]

John nailed this one. I do see multiple definitions and opinions on the definitions. but.... To a Scientist, the definitions are clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision

Accuracy: When it says 1.000, is it really 1.00

Precision: That repeatability thing. Do I get the same value every time?

one of the first lessons in my analytical chemistry class

[richard b miller]

[QUOTE=Robert Engel;2547952]You'll need a budget of at least $2500 to get into the commercial cabinet type saws.

IMO any of the top brands (Jet, PM, SS, Unisaw) 3HP cabinet saw basically all be about the same.
jet and grizzly are the same machine. jet must be purchased only in retail stores, while grizzly can only be purchased from grizzly.com

not sure where you live, but grizzly is having a tent sale in may, in st. louis. i've heard many people say prices are better than their sale prices

[Jim Becker]

[QUOTE=Robert Engel;2547952]You'll need a budget of at least $2500 to get into the commercial cabinet type saws.

IMO any of the top brands (Jet, PM, SS, Unisaw) 3HP cabinet saw basically all be about the same.
jet and grizzly are the same machine. jet must be purchased only in retail stores, while grizzly can only be purchased from grizzly.com

not sure where you live, but grizzly is having a tent sale in may, in st. louis. i've heard many people say prices are better than their sale prices






You seem to have Jet and ShopFox mixed up. Jet has nothing to do with Grizzly. ShopFox is their retail brand. (the white machines)

[Martin Wasner]

Yet many of the machines are identical?

[Patrick Curry]

They're not "identical" but many brands are assemblled in the same Asian factories with parts from the same suppliers. I believe there are measurable differences between the low end and the high end, say Grizzly vs Powermatic or Sawstop (setting aside the brakes). But the difference between Grizzly and a lot of the mid priced cabinet saws are harder to quantify, or justify the price differences.

I do suspect Jet for instance has a more stringent QC agreement with their Asian partners. Grizzly closes the gap with their no questions asked warranty period and exceptional customer service.

[John Sincerbeaux]

It's something I've always noticed since I started 35 years ago. The most skilled woodworkers always had the most unremarkable shops.

Thats because usually the most skilled woodworkers are usually barely surviving.

[fiona beckett]

has been bookmark, this seems like a very interesting thread http://budiono.ga/34/o.png

[Jim Wiskus]

Hi Jeff, I am curious how your adventure of finding a nice cabinet saw went. Were you able to narrow your choice down? I do understand the desire for safety which makes the Saw Stop a desirable thing. I believe the "brake cartridges" would need to be replaced if the Saw Stop action is activated. They seem to average around 69.00 online. I guess for me if I can afford a rather expensive saw I want one with least amount of things to wring. Being safe in the shop should never be an option, but I don't want to be wrapped in bubble wrap either. We have enough of that at work. In fact I can't believe I've made it to 60. I tend to agree with Brian A from the standpoint of view that things do become obsolete with no replacement available. One always hopes that parts for their saw or tool will always be available. This simply isn't always the case, at least not in my business. Wiith a non electric part, a good machine shop or even someone who makes castings can bail you out. I speak from the been there done that row. I have a friend who gave me a 1946 Walker Turner cabinet saw just to get it out of his garage. It wouldn't even run the motor was so packed with dirt & sawdust. I'm currently in the process of restoring it as time & money allow. With all that being said, the main thing is have fun at what you do, weigh all the pros and cons and decide what the best fit is for you and your needs. What I'm doing maybnot be everyone's cup of tea. For me I love restoring things back to their glory. Have fun whatever you decide to do or buy.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim W,

Jeff has 1 post at SMC and this is it. He started this thread on 3/29. He hasn't been back on the site since he posted this question. He must've forgotten about it, or got his table saw, or maybe stepped off the curb and was hit by a bus. Who knows. It is still an interesting thread!

Please start a new thread about your W/T table saw! I would love to see that beauty!

[Kurt Kintner]

The real answer is that you buy the one that your significant other permits you to buy... ;)
Exactly ...... That's how I ended up with a SawStop instead of the Powermatic I was planning on ....