The right chisel for doing dovetail work?

[Gene Davis]

My chisels go from 1/8 through 2 inches, but all are total cheapsters acquired over time. The only ones that are sort of OK are a big old Sorby I bought off eBay and a Witherby socket square edger I have from Dad's old box of mostly crap. The rest are of BORG-store quality.

Even so, I have a collection of good waterstones and a good guide, for sharpening, and when they are sharp enough with which to shave, I can execute some cuts OK with them.

But I plan on doing a lot of dovetailed drawerboxes, and want to step things up a notch, having recently bought a LN saw and some other gear.

Attached is one I have my eye on. A Stanley 1/4-incher that appears to have its edges beveled down to almost nothing, for doing that between-tails final chop.

Whaddya think?

[Phil Mueller]

Gene, you'll get more experienced answers I'm sure, but I was in the same boat. I don't have any experience with the Stanley Chisel. I decided on two of these from Tools For Working Wood:
334710

Iyoroi Umeki-Nomi Bronzed Backed Dovetail Chisels. They are not the most expensive Japanese chisels out there, but I'm real impressed compared to my standard bench chisels. They are a little less than twice the price of the Stanley.

[steven c newman]

Afraid all of mine are either by Butcher, or Witherby. Most of them ran me maybe $2-5.......Mine go from 1/8" up to 1/2". Might keep a lookout for something like that...

[Jim Koepke]

The Stanley would likely be fine for what I consider small dovetails. If your opening at the bottom of the tails isn't going to be much bigger than 1/4" that might be all you need. I tend to size my dovetail dimensions to my chisels.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

My chisels go from 1/8 through 2 inches, but all are total cheapsters acquired over time. The only ones that are sort of OK are a big old Sorby I bought off eBay and a Witherby socket square edger I have from Dad's old box of mostly crap. The rest are of BORG-store quality.

Even so, I have a collection of good waterstones and a good guide, for sharpening, and when they are sharp enough with which to shave, I can execute some cuts OK with them.

But I plan on doing a lot of dovetailed drawerboxes, and want to step things up a notch, having recently bought a LN saw and some other gear.

Attached is one I have my eye on. A Stanley 1/4-incher that appears to have its edges beveled down to almost nothing, for doing that between-tails final chop.

Whaddya think?

I have that chisel and I specifically use it for dovetail work, but only after a fair bit of customization. I initially learned dovetails by reading Ian Kirby's book, and he recommends creating a pair of dedicated 1/4" chisels with ~10 deg skew for cleaning tail and pin sockets in half- and double-blind DTs. I chose the 750s because they're decent chisels but not so good I'd feel bad about messing up the modifications.

The sides on the 750s are actually fairly high compared to, say, LV or L-N, but that's easy enough to fix with a belt grinder and a bit of courage (just not the liquid kind). You only need the sides to be angled in by the dovetail angle (typically 10 deg or less), so you don't need to remove all that much metal.

[Phil Mueller]

Mike, I'm curious what LN chisel you mean...they don't list a paring chisel. Are you referring to their standard bevel chisel?

[Patrick Chase]

Gene, that Stanley chisel has a pretty average cross-section. I sometimes use the one I have for some chopping (it's a 3/8", by the way), but its nothing special for paring. I would tell you to spend a little more and get the Lie-Nielsen chisel. Their side bevels go down to nothing for the entire length of the blade. No other chisel I have tried comes even close for dovetailing.

The L-Ns and LVs aver very nice and impeccably made, but they have much more aggressive side bevels than you need for dovetails. For dovetails the only thing that matters is that the sides are "tipped in" by at least the dovetail angle, which is typically 7-10 deg (1:8 and 1:6 slope, respectively). Put another way, the bevel angle between the base and sides needs to be 80 deg or so. In contrast the LVs and LNs are tipped in by ~30 deg such that the base-to-edge bevel angle is ~60 deg.

The 750 makes a perfectly good dovetail chisel, once you've reground the first inch or so with a ~80 deg bevel that goes all the way to the base.

[Patrick Chase]

Mike, I'm curious what LN chisel you mean...they don't list a paring chisel. Are you referring to their standard bevel chisel?

It's important to distinguish between the act of paring and "paring chisels". Some paring (though much less than you might naively think) is done with "paring chisels", but most dovetail work is done with conventional bevel-edge bench chisels like the 750s, L-Ns, and LVs discussed here.

Paring chisels are basically very long (and sometimes flexible) versions of bench chisels. They excel at paring long[ish] surfaces like grooves, dados, and rabbets. For dovetails they just get in the way, though.

[Warren Mickley]

You don't need angled sides to chisels to clean dovetail waste. Because of the saw kerfs at the sides, a chisel can have straight sides somewhere around 1/8 high unless the dovetails are way over angled. So the chisel does not need the extremely thin "lands" that the tool mongers are hawking. The idea that one needs special chisels just for dovetails is relatively new. In fact in the 18th century chisels usually had straight sides with no bevels, although they were tapered from the bolster to the bevel so they were not as clumsy as many chisels today.

The Stanley 750 is adequate for this work. I would make a new handle. I find that handles like this and the LN chisels are way too small. When hitting with a mallet even a guy with average hands has to hold the chisel partly on the handle and partly on the socket to avoid hitting knuckles. It is nice to have five or six inches of handle to hold.

[Steve Voigt]

…but that's easy enough to fix with a belt grinder and a bit of courage (just not the liquid kind).

Hey, don't underestimate the combination of a belt grinder and some liquid courage!

[Patrick Chase]

You don't need angled sides to chisels to clean dovetail waste. Because of the saw kerfs at the sides, a chisel can have straight sides somewhere around 1/8 high unless the dovetails are way over angled. So the chisel does not need the extremely thin "lands" that the tool mongers are hawking. The idea that one needs special chisels just for dovetails is relatively new. In fact in the 18th century chisels usually had straight sides with no bevels, although they were tapered from the bolster to the bevel so they were not as clumsy as many chisels today.

Out of curiosity, how would you clean the inside corners of the tail sockets in half-blind DTs and the pin sockets in double-lap or secret miter DTs with firmer chisels such as you describe? I agree that for thru DTs bevel isn't really necessary, particularly if you can pare while skewing the chisel a teeny bit.

I only bothered to grind the sides of my DT chisels once I started cutting blind DTs.

[Gene Davis]

Well, as a really cheap guy, I like the idea of those $2 to $5 chisels. How does one find them at that price?

The only way yard sales are advertised where I am is via Craigslist, and I never see anything worthwhile advertised. I look all the time.

[Patrick Chase]

Hey, don't underestimate the combination of a belt grinder and some liquid courage!

Long ago, back when I first started in engineering, technical reports were still distributed in paper form. I had a colleague who wanted to see if anybody actually read what he wrote, so he inserted the complete text of a Weekly World News article into one of his reports. It dealt with the aftermath of drunken belt grinding (also naked, but I'm treating that as an inevitable side effect of the booze), involved a staple gun, and my colleague simplified its title to "Scrotal Self Repair". Enough said.

When I left HP 20+ years later a bunch of folks still had copies of that squirreled away in their filing cabinets.

EDIT: In case it isn't obvious, I realize that almost nothing in WWN is true (I say "almost" because I have a dim recollection of some scandal that they broke years ago that, probably through sheer luck, turned out to be true).

[Warren Mickley]

I use a 1/4 inch chisel to clean the corners of half blind dovetails. Or maybe a narrower chisel for drawers that are very delicate. I think I have only made "double lap" dovetails as an exercise, not in any work that I was paid for. This joint is pretty rare in traditional work.

[Simon MacGowen]

You don't need angled sides to chisels to clean dovetail waste. So the chisel does not need the extremely thin "lands" that the tool mongers are hawking. .

Agreed, though sometimes, it is the customers, not the tool makers, who demand tools to be made in certain way because misinformation is shared and spread around in the public domain. The Internet is a double-edged sword.

Fancy tools are not needed to cut dovetails and the same can be said of sharpening. A lot of hobby woodworkers are overthinking and equate collection of tools to skills.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

I use a 1/4 inch chisel to clean the corners of half blind dovetails. Or maybe a narrower chisel for drawers that are very delicate. I think I have only made "double lap" dovetails as an exercise, not in any work that I was paid for. This joint is pretty rare in traditional work.

Makes sense. At 1:8 the "overshoot" from using a 1/4 chisel would only be 0.75 mm, and that's tolerable for an internal non-show surface provided it only impacts a small percentage of the glueing area. Thank you!

I agree w.r.t. the usefulness of double-lap and secret miter DTs in commercial work. I doubt there are many customers willing to pay extra for something they can't even tell is there...

[Dave Beauchesne]

I really like my LN chisels for dovetailing.
The gap between 1/8" and 1/4" was too great: I got a 3/16" inch model and use it a lot.
Just my 2 cents----
Dave B

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you Patrick. Enlightened again.

[Derek Cohen]

My chisels go from 1/8 through 2 inches, but all are total cheapsters acquired over time. The only ones that are sort of OK are a big old Sorby I bought off eBay and a Witherby socket square edger I have from Dad's old box of mostly crap. The rest are of BORG-store quality.

Even so, I have a collection of good waterstones and a good guide, for sharpening, and when they are sharp enough with which to shave, I can execute some cuts OK with them.

But I plan on doing a lot of dovetailed drawerboxes, and want to step things up a notch, having recently bought a LN saw and some other gear.

Attached is one I have my eye on. A Stanley 1/4-incher that appears to have its edges beveled down to almost nothing, for doing that between-tails final chop.

Whaddya think?

Gene, it all depends on the type of dovetail you are making, and whether you want to do it the easy or hard way.

Most new dovetailers start off with through dovetails and saw the tails wide. Typically, this is about 1/2" at the baseline. With this much room, a square-sided 1/4" wide chisel may be angled to clean out the sidewall. Still, it is a hassle. Only those that are frugal and/or dedicated to olde-world historical roots will persevere with these chisels for this technique. It pays to have at least one chisel that has minimal lands to use face-on. Choose the chisel size according to the baseline width you aim for.


This example off the 'net ...

http://pop.h-cdn.co/assets/16/05/768x511/gallery-1454406729-make-through-dovetails-5f00-111.jpg




I use wider tails with carcases ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/Kist_html_m143e34e7.jpg


It is especially when you make narrow tails, such as "London" dovetails, where the baseline may be 1/8-3/16" wide, that you really need to have chisels dedicated to dovetailing. My most used ones are 1/8", 3/16", and 1/4".

Most recent photo (baseline using 3/16") ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/AllTheDrawersAreDone_html_m2bb88984.jpg

Half-blind sockets (pins) do not require a chisel with minimal lands, unless you are using one to clear out the socket corners. A fishtail chisel is better for that purpose. Others prefer skew chisels. In general, the sockets have perpendicular sidewalls, and you could happily use a firmer chisel here. However, the tails will still require a chisel with minimal lands.

There is another aspect to chisels with minimal lands that should not be over-looked. They enable one to reach in closer to a sidewall - including non-dovetail sidewalls. In my subjective experience, they just feel more precision-like that firmer-style chisels.

With regard grinding the sides of Stanley (or other) chisels, this may be done by running the chisel along the face of a grinder. NOT FOR NOVICES. I have a set of vintage Stanley #750s that I modified, including adding longer handles (I also dislike the short handles) ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Stanley%20750%20Dovetails/Blades-hollowground1.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Chisels/Stanley%20750%20Dovetails/750modified.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

Gene,

Apologies if this is repetitive, but I believe you refer to the side bevel height, which other than steel quality, is the most critical aspect for a DT chisel. With super fine kerf's of high quality DT saws, this is critical to avoid bruising the corners of the tails.

I did quite a bit of research when upgrading my chisel set, finally settling on the Narex premium simply because at the time this was what I could afford. (The premiums have lower SBH than standard Narex). Quite a bit of work getting the backs flat, but as it turns out, they are quite serviceable and I have stuck with them.

I did purchase one Stanley 750 to test and have to say I was not impressed. First, the SBH is higher than expected. The chisel handle is too small and too light in my hands. My impression is the steel does not hold an edge as good as the Narex. This doesn't mean its a lousy chisel, I'm just giving you some considerations from personal experience.

FWW has an excellent chisel review. As I recall, the LN's and Ashley Liles have the lowest SBH's of any chisel listed. I believe the AL's also have an oval chisel which looks quite nice.

LN makes a single bevel fishtail chisel which is excellent for cleaning up 1/2 blind DT's.

[Daniel Rode]

I have a full set of the modern Stanley 750s. The lands are not particularly small. They may be slightly smaller than my Marples. I really like the 750s. In part, I like the size and shape of the handle. I find them very comfortable with excellent balance. I use these for chopping mortises as well as dovetails and anything else a chisel does.

For thin lands, you might take a look at the Ashley Iles chisels. They're not overly costly and have thin lands. They make a half round "dovetail" chisel set but I've never talked to anyone who uses those. The MK2 are the set I considered.

I've not had an issue using the 750s for any dovetails I've tried. Never really had trouble with the Marples either.

My biggest issue is 1/8" is too small and 1/4" is too big :) It seems that I constantly need a 3/16" chisel for thin pins but don't have one.

[Brian Holcombe]

I also enjoy very thin pins so I find a 1/8" chisel comes in handy. My preference is for Japanese chisels and for dovetail work I usually use Shinogi nomi, which are a triangular shape, or fishtail chisels. They come in handy for me because I find myself making short dovetails for frames and flaring them to 15 degrees in order for them to look like dovetails and not just incorrectly made box joints.

For casework I don't really need special chisels, but I will use Shinogi nomi because I have them handy.

For secret mitered dovetails I also find them not needed, but fishtail chisels come in handy.

Plan around your tools and you will save constantly searching for something.

[lowell holmes]

A lot of hobby woodworkers are overthinking and equate collection of tools to skills.

Simon
Use any chisel you have, just be careful to sharpen it and keep the bevel at 25 to 30 degrees.
Of course as time goes on, you will find a lot of chisels you like.

I chopped a lot of dovetails with Blue Chips. I like the feel of them, but prefer a harder steel. Lie Nielsen chisels are always a good choice. You don't have to buy a whole set. Old Stanley 750's are nice feeling, but sometimes the steel is not good.

[Daniel Rode]

Generally true. However, I have a handful of chisels (blue chips, in fact) sharpened to about 20*. They are most often used for making dovetails in pine. They are not so useful for mortises in oak :) The steep angle is the difference for me between cutting and tearing the pine end grain. The edge is more fragile that 25* - 30*but not as much as one might suspect.


Use any chisel you have, just be careful to sharpen it and keep the bevel at 25 to 30 degrees.
Of course as time goes on, you will find a lot of chisels you like.

[Warren Mickley]

I agree w.r.t. the usefulness of double-lap and secret miter DTs in commercial work. I doubt there are many customers willing to pay extra for something they can't even tell is there...

I don't think it is a matter of customers willing to pay. I never had a situation where I felt this construction was called for.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I think that there are two primary questions.

Question 1: Is the steel decent in your current chisels. If the steel makes the chisels unusable, then you need to replace it. I have only one chisel that is so soft I cannot use it. Pretty sure it is home made, and given my grandparents, it might not have been intended to for regular wood working.

Question 2: Do you have the sizes that you need? When I make smaller boxes, I break out my Veritas Detail Chisels.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=46035&cat=1,41504

I am a big fan of these chisels. Note that this includes a 1/16", 1/8", 1/4", and two 1/2" chisels. If your chisel is too big to fit, well, then it is not usable.

After you get past (1) and (2), you can start asking questions like, does it feel good in my hand, can I get a more suitable steel, etc.

[Simon MacGowen]

Generally true. However, I have a handful of chisels (blue chips, in fact) sharpened to about 20*. They are most often used for making dovetails in pine.

I seldom work with pine, mostly hardwood and always keep my chopping chisels at 30 degrees; paring 25 degrees. However, you rightly pointed out that for softwood like pine, a lower angle is better, though the edge may not hold as long. Rob Cosman spoke of that at a tradeshow and his chisels for pine as seen there were honed at 17 degrees. It was hard to argue with a DT guru like him who showed the difference between using his 17 degree chisel and a regular one honed at 25 right on the spot.

Simon

[steven c newman]

Yard sales, and a few antique stores I know about.

334747
Some of the "main" chisels I used for dovetails..in Pine. Came out decently enough..
334748
Butcher 1/8" and 3/16", New Haven 1/4" and a 1/4" Aldi chisel. The 1/8" was a $1 garage sale find.

[Adam Cruea]

The Stanley Sweethearts are decent chisels. I have the 8 piece set, and if I did it again, I would buy them again. I find them decently balanced and easy to work with. When hogging out dovetails, I generally don't hold the handle. For large work, I hold the chisel in my hand with about 3/4 of my palm down the length of the chisel so that where the socket is welded to the chisel sticks out of my fist. Usually, that's only when I'm giving something hell (for say, a 1 inch deep dovetail in hickory).

For finer work, I'll generally hold the chisel between my thumb and fore/middle fingers.

Anyway, that Stanley will work fine, though if you have the money, I'd get the 4 piece set (1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and 4/4, I think). The only bad thing about them is that they come dipped in lacquer and the tool marks on the back.