Time for an upgrade

[Brent Cutshall]

Hello everybody. Ever since I started woodworking, I have been using cheapy Ace hardware type sharpening stones. I am considering buying either a water stone or an Arkansas stone. Which would y'all recommend and what grit should I get for general purpose?

[Josh Nelson]

Hello everybody. Ever since I started woodworking, I have been using cheapy Ace hardware type sharpening stones. I am considering buying either a water stone or an Arkansas stone. Which would y'all recommend and what grit should I get for general purpose?

Of your choices, I'm partial to Arkansas stones. I really liked the polish that I got from waterstones but found them to be too much work. I used, until I sold them, a soft, hard, and black but I used sandpaper on a block of granite to establish my rough bevels.

[Archie England]

Hello everybody. Ever since I started woodworking, I have been using cheapy Ace hardware type sharpening stones. I am considering buying either a water stone or an Arkansas stone. Which would y'all recommend and what grit should I get for general purpose?


Welcome.

Grab some popcorn for this one, since our opinions might be quite varied....

My answer depends on--what kind of metal are you going to sharpen (O1, A2, HSS, Blue or White steel Japanese blades, etc.).

Some experienced learning: the medium chosen (oil, water, diamond, sandpaper, power grinders, belt grinders, etc.) is mostly preference. What's gained vs. what's sacrificed is typically speed or money (or both).

Unfortunately, I tried a bunch of different ways (and, hence, am not a purist). I'll use grinders to reshaped a bad edge, oil stones on O1, waterstones one A2 or PMV11, and grinders on whatever stumps me. Waterstones are my favorite medium, but they do create quite a mess and do require access to water.

Just tossing in my 2 cents to get this rolling.

[Jim Koepke]

Here's my 334656 which is no better than anyone else's.

I like water stones, oilstones and sandpaper. In the kitchen is a diamond stone for touchups between trips out to the shop stones with the kitchen cutlery.

It has been awhile for me doing much volume on my large hunk of granite with sandpaper. It is usually sporting a 320 grit strip about 4X40". My power sharpening system from Veritas is a flat, motor driven disk with abrasive grits of 80, 160, 40µ & 6µ if my memory is working. Most of the time these days it is used with the 160 grit on edge tools.

Oilstones are great for when it is too cold to use water in the shop. I also use them on carving tools, drill bits and general metal work. I have a small assortment of slip stones in various compositions to work on shaped blades and better quality serrated steak knives. They are also great if you want to carry a stone into the field and don't want to mess with water stones.

Today it was my water stones were put to use. For most of my work a 1000, 4000 & an 8000 grit stone are sufficient. I also have a selection of slipstones for use with water.

My shop doesn't have running water. I carry water in an old 1 gallon milk jug. Water stones are a bit tricky if you are doing gouges and shaped blades. One of my water stones developed a rut from gouge sharpening. It is also easy to catch with a straight blade and leave a nasty divot.

All the water sharpening equipment is set up on one side of the shop. All the oil sharpening equipment is set up on the other side. When I had a small shop where it all had to be put away when not in use was a hassle. Having to make the choice of stopping work to set up the sharpening equipment versus working a little longer with a dull blade didn't work for me. Now if a blade doesn't cut as well as I want it to there is no reason to not just walk over to one bench or the other to hone the edge.

Ease of set up and clean up may have their place in considering what system you chose.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I have all of the same ones Jim mentioned. My primary stones (which stay out on the bench) is a diamond plate with a water spray bottle. I spritz the diamond plate with a bit of water and sharpen cross body free hand. I have a piece of mdf charged with LV green honing compound.

If I need to sharpen planer or jointer knives, I put wet sandpaper on a granite plate and sharpen the knives. I use a Deulen jig on the granite plate. The shaper knives are almost too sharp after that.

[michael langman]

Brent, Being a toolmaker, machinist most of my life, and now a wood worker, I have found the Norton bench stone with the fine grit on one side and the coarse grit on the other, 1"x2"x8", in their oilstone a great all around stone for about 20.00. I also use a fine Arkansas stone with oil,1"x3"x8", and an Arkansas translucent stone, 1"x2"x6", for a final finish. Then some green rouge on a piece of 3/4 x 6" long white pine to bring to a high polish.
You can do without the translucent Arkansas as they are fairly expensive though.
When I was in the machine shop a medium grit Norton oilstone was the standard all around stone used .
It was good for touching up HSS cutting tools.

[Glen Canaday]

I can't speak for waterstones. I've never used them, mostly because 1. I am not keen on the idea of flattening them every or every other use, 2. I have no access to running water in the shop area, and 3. This is Minnesota. I can't leave them out there, whereas with Arkansas stones I can.

One of those inexpensive coarse/fine stones and something to finish on (black or trans, or even just a hard ark) with a strop, should do it.

I grind bevels freehand with a hand crank grinder, which generally means I take nicks out the same way.

6 responses, 6 different answers!

[David Bassett]

What do you find inadequate about your current stones and technique?

[Wayne Taylor]

DMT diamond plates: coarse, medium and fine, then leather strop. It's the Paul Sellers method.

In the kitchen I use the spyderco sharpmaker. In ten minutes, I can sharpen ten knives razor sharp; it helps to do them in batches.

[Stewie Simpson]

I have been using a Fallkniven DC521 bench stone for my chisels and plane irons.

http://www.fallkniven.com/en/component/virtuemart/details/558/13/sharpeners/dc521

[Brent Cutshall]

David to answer your question, I am sure that I don't know much about sharpening stones, but the stone I work with now clogs really easy, it guzzles the oil, it dulls really easy, and it will not slurr up no matter what:(. Notice I said "stone" because I have only used the one stone, always. Thanks everyone for responding, and by the way, what is it with y'all and 2 cents?:D

[paul cottingham]

Here is what I do, and you should follow my advice, because, of course, my way is best. :-)

For a long time, I got great edges with a 1000, a 4,000 and an 8000. Got lazy, started using just 1000 for shaping, and 8000 for polishing. My hands are hosed, (bad neuropathic pain) so now I use a belt grinder for grinding, and honing, and I polish on a Japanese 10000 stone. Get greate edges with a cheap Viel grinder, good Trizac belts and an expensive, long lasting polishing stone. I just use a side clamp honing guide.

that Japanese stone has never clogged on me.

[Patrick Chase]

I have been using a Fallkniven DC521 bench stone for my chisels and plane irons.

http://www.fallkniven.com/en/component/virtuemart/details/558/13/sharpeners/dc521

Interesting concept, and not too expensive. 585 SEK == $75 or so. What do you think the effective grit of the diamond part is?

[Jim Koepke]

by the way, what is it with y'all and 2 cents?:D

I guess it is an old fogey expression these days. Kind of like the 'bees knees' the even older 'twenty three skidoo' and 'a penny for your thoughts.' Most of those willing to give a penny for thoughts would get two cents worth. :eek:

If your stone is guzzling oil, it is likely one of the coarser man made stones. An oilstone will not usually make a lot of slurry like a water stone does.

So Brent, what kind of work are you planning on doing?

jtk

[David Bassett]

David to answer your question, I am sure that I don't know much about sharpening stones, but the stone I work with now clogs really easy, it guzzles the oil, it dulls really easy, and it will not slurr up no matter what:(. Notice I said "stone" because I have only used the one stone, always. Thanks everyone for responding, and by the way, what is it with y'all and 2 cents?:D

My 2-cents :-) worth:

If your stone is clogging, more/better cutting fluid springs to mind. Since it is guzzling oil, a box (traditional) or a zip-lock freezer bag (my solution for cheap BORG stones) would (help) prevent your oil from evaporating between uses. I've never heard of anyone getting a slurry with anything but water stones. (They give up their abrasive particles, making a slurry and causing them to need flattening more often.) Ceramic stones stay flat better, don't wear quickly, can be used dry or with a dribble of water, and are so hard they bug some people to distraction. Many of our more experienced members have gone to diamond plates for coarse work and ceramic stones for finishing because they can get acceptable edges with less mess. (George Wilson & Derek Cohen spring to mind. There are probably others.) If you want to try waterstones a combo Norton might supplement your coarse oil stone and fill a gap. This may be a way to experiment with waterstones and give yourself a finer stone to hone your edges. (Norton's seem to be the baseline waterstone. I've seen so many recommendations begin, "Norton's are all right, but I prefer...." Problem is what is recommended as better is different depending on the user's taste and more expensive than the Norton's.) If your only problem is your oil stone is too coarse and glazed up, you might want to spring for a finer oil stone (e.g. a finer Arkansas) and some really coarse sand paper to resurface your current stone.

[David Bassett]

... What do you think the effective grit of the diamond part is?

I'm not going to guess at numbers and I don't know I have the same material as Stewie pointed to. I assumed the much smaller DC4 had the same surfaces as the bench stone, it was much cheaper, and I was curious. (Amazon has both and reviews suggest users love or hate both sizes. Perhaps the grit has changed or is inconsistent?) Anyway, I ordered a DC4 to try. The diamond side scratched up a very dull pocket knife I experimented with and the ceramic side wasn't coarse enough to clean up those scratches quickly. It didn't make me want to continue using the diamond side. Eye-balling things I'd guess my ceramic side is a little coarser than a Spyderco medium stone. I really suspect my stone is, on both sides, coarser than what some of the reviewers received. So, YMMV. Me, I'm going to plan B and tossing the little DC4 in with the camping stuff for use on the hatchet and the odd field repair.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Someone just posted a set of Norton waterstones in the classifieds with 1k, 4K, and 8k plus a flattening stone for $100. They are a good set to start you out with waterstones. The 8k can be a little soft, but the finish it gives is good. It is what I started out with.

[Stewie Simpson]

David. Were you using honing oil on the diamond and ceramic surfaces of the DC4.

Stewie;

[Al Launier]

Brent, Being a toolmaker, machinist most of my life, and now a wood worker, I have found the Norton bench stone with the fine grit on one side and the coarse grit on the other, 1"x2"x8", in their oilstone a great all around stone for about 20.00. I also use a fine Arkansas stone with oil,1"x3"x8", and an Arkansas translucent stone, 1"x2"x6", for a final finish. Then some green rouge on a piece of 3/4 x 6" long white pine to bring to a high polish.
You can do without the translucent Arkansas as they are fairly expensive though.
When I was in the machine shop a medium grit Norton oilstone was the standard all around stone used .
It was good for touching up HSS cutting tools.

As another former machinist and a Tool & Die maker for years I agree with Mike's recommendation for Arkansas dual sided stones; they do the job well. However, one must be careful to use the entire surface, as with any stone, to avoid wearing out the center as it's better to have a uniformly flat surface for sharpening and to use oil or water to avoide clogging the pores. Although I have a set of water stones I rarely use them, preferring the Arkansas assortment of stones. I also recommend the use of a diamond stone for kitchen knives.

[Brent Cutshall]

Jim, as of now, I've had my grubby paws in just about anything from metalwork to glasswork to woodwork. Woodworking is my main thing and there's not much I can't do in that genre. I just said I could do it, I didn't say I don't stink at most of it except for carving, timber work, and rustic type furniture making(don't ask me about my dovetails 'cause I know they stink). But for carving I need the ol' knives and gouges especially sharp. I think I might go with a combination water stone and/or hard/hard black arkansas stone. Oh, and I make awesome saw handles

[Jim Koepke]

I think I might go with a combination water stone and/or hard/hard black arkansas stone.

In my experience it is a mistake to start on an oilstone and finish on a water stone. It is difficult to get all the oil off of the tool and it doesn't play nice on a water stone.

Going from water to oil is usually fine.

For gouges and shaped plane blades I usually stick to oilstones. It is too easy to wear a trench into a water stone with a small gouge. I will use water stone slips on some of my carving tools and shaped plane blades.

It really depends on how much room you have and whether or not you want multiple sharpening systems. For me it is advantageous, for others it is likely more mess than they want to have in their shop.

jtk

[David Bassett]

David. Were you using honing oil on the diamond and ceramic surfaces of the DC4.

Stewie;

Nope. As I suggested I already had a plan B in mind. The description/comments suggested it would work dry and I gave it about 30 seconds that way. That was enough to satisfy my curiosity and for me to move on. I hadn't thought of cutting oil, didn't bother to try water with soap, and certainly didn't give the stone sides a chance to break in. For me both sides were much coarser than I expected and the size I purchased (because it was cheap & I had plan B) isn't really suitable for a bench stone anyway. Basically this wasn't a "magic bullet" that surpassed what I already have. From the reviews and your comments this stone obviously has a place in many folk's work flows, just not mine today.

Added: If my sample had been roughly a DMT DiaSharp F/XF texture on the diamond side and about 2/3 of the way from Spyderco Med to Spyderco XF on the ceramic side, it would have gotten a much harder look and quite possibly become a toolbag touch-up stone that got used a lot. Perhaps, guessing from the comments, some of their production falls into that category. That or their fans are trying to solve a different problem than I am. (Maybe I'll try again someday, but I'm already headed to Patrick territory without yet-another-stone to experiment with. :-) )

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Two primary issues:



There are many ways to suit what is best for how you work.
You can spend a bunch of money to try the different methods


My preference is to use a hollow grind and then free hand. You might find that if you added a hollow grind, then your stone might continue to work just fine.

If you lived near me, I would just have you come over and try some of my stones and try a hollow grind on something if you wanted.

[Chris Hachet]

Two primary issues:



There are many ways to suit what is best for how you work.
You can spend a bunch of money to try the different methods


My preference is to use a hollow grind and then free hand. You might find that if you added a hollow grind, then your stone might continue to work just fine.

If you lived near me, I would just have you come over and try some of my stones and try a hollow grind on something if you wanted.


I have used his Tormek to Hollow grind, it works very well. Using dimond stones after a hollow ground, it is a long time before I need antoher hollow grind. And even an idiot like me can free hand retty well with a hollow on the end of the blade.

Also, i re sharen fairly frequently. I prefer hard maple and quarter sawn white oak for projects, and I want my tools to be really, really sharp. touching them up on my finest stone before going back to work is time well sent IMHO.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Also, i resharpen fairly frequently.

Yeah, what he said! It is so easy to do that I do not mind touching them up for 10 to 20 seconds after every board.