Help with sharpening

[jim mills]

All i have in my sharpening arsenal is a norton 1000/8000 wet stone and a cheap, but effective honing guide. Now that all the secondary bevels on my planes and chisels are too big, I'm looking for a more efficient way to reestablish the primary bevel. Suggestions are greatly appreciated...

[Luke Dupont]

I'm pretty new to sharpening myself, but I do almost all of my sharpening free hand and don't use secondary bevels for this reason. If you do use a jig, I think the beauty in that is that you can eliminate any secondary bevel or convex geometry; as soon as you put it in the jig, you'll quickly bring the back down to the right angle each time, and then you'll be working the edge due to angulation.

Try getting some sandpaper; 400 grit should work fine, or, if they're really need work, 240. I find sandpaper removes material very quickly, and it even leaves a very polished surface. Get the kind that is meant for metal, if you can.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Cheap: sandpaper on glass
Middle: coarse waterstone, oilstone, or low-priced Diamond stone (*avoid the Norton 220- not a good stone- their others are good.)
higher: DMT diasharp waterstone
expensive: Worksharp 3000

[jim mills]

Thanks, I've tried sandpaper on glass...Pretty slow....especially when you blunt a tip, and have considerable material to remove. Maybe I need to try different paper. Would a coarse waterstone be better?.

I looked at a worksharp. Looks like a piece of cheap Chinese junk...correct me if I am wrong, and by the time I get everything I need, I have $$$ invested. I dont mind spending the money.. but not on plastic...

[Curt Putnam]

How many edges do you need to maintain? That will tell you whether or not investment is worth it to you. If you have a lot of metal to remove I'd suggest dropping back to 80 or 100 grit sandpaper and then progress from 80 to 100 to 120 to 150 to 320. A lot of steps but the scratches from the previous step go away quickly. You can probably jump from 320/400 to a 1000 grit stone without much trouble. I go with a Worksharp 3000 below 1000 grit and after that use the Sigma Power Ceramic stones from Stu. 1000 > 6000 > 13000. There are probably a few thousand ways to answer your question - so this is all FWIW & YMWV.

[Patrick Chase]

Cheap: sandpaper on glass
Middle: coarse waterstone, oilstone, or low-priced Diamond stone (*avoid the Norton 220- not a good stone- their others are good.)
higher: DMT diasharp waterstone
expensive: Worksharp 3000

middle: 1x30 "Harbor Fright special" belt grinder
middle: Lapping films on glass
higher: Bench grinder and white friable wheels
expensive: Veritas Mk-II sharpening system (same basic approach and price class as WS-3000)
expensive: Bench grinder and CBN wheels (though this can get up into exorbitant)
exorbitant: Tormek
exorbitant: K-Mart dish-rack holding a full set of Choseras (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?242035-KMart-now-sells-water-stone-racks).

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Jim and Luke,

You can modify your profile to provide an indication of where you live and then maybe someone who lives near you can help; for example, if you live near Columbus Ohio, you can swing on by and try some of the equipment and stones that I own and then you can leave with some very sharp tools.

I have found course sandpaper to be rather effective, but, I prefer to use my Tormek (slow wet grinder) or my other faster dry grinder if serious work needs to be done. For serious sharpening and reshaping, sandpaper is slow. It is the reasons that I purchased power sharpening equipment.

[jim mills]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I need to revisit the use of sandpaper. Fact is, 400g is about the coarsest I have ever used. What type of sandpaper should I use in the coarser grits? AO,SC,... ?

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I need to revisit the use of sandpaper. Fact is, 400g is about the coarsest I have ever used. What type of sandpaper should I use in the coarser grits? AO,SC,... ?


If things are really rough, I would jump back to say 220 or 180. I have gone as course as 60 when I had serious work to do, but that is seriously rough.

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I need to revisit the use of sandpaper. Fact is, 400g is about the coarsest I have ever used. What type of sandpaper should I use in the coarser grits? AO,SC,... ?

For seriously dinged blades I'd go all the way down to 80 as Andrew said. I've had good luck with the Norton "3X" Aluminum-Oxide paper on common steels. IMO Silicon Carbide breaks down too quickly for serious work on tool steels.

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks, I've tried sandpaper on glass...Pretty slow....especially when you blunt a tip, and have considerable material to remove. Maybe I need to try different paper. Would a coarse waterstone be better?.

I looked at a worksharp. Looks like a piece of cheap Chinese junk...correct me if I am wrong, and by the time I get everything I need, I have $$$ invested. I dont mind spending the money.. but not on plastic...

It comes down to whether or not you have enough blade work to need a power system or not. If you have 10 blades or less human powered sharpening might cover it.

My accumulation of blades is in the hundreds. My sharpening regimen needs some kind of power assist.

This is the one I use:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48435&cat=1,43072

I bought one years ago when it was a little lower in price. I purchased extra holders so multiple blades could be worked. When one got warm it could be cooling while another blade was being worked. It has been used for many blades from axes to scythes.

The one feature I do not like is it is set up to automatically make a secondary bevel. It is easy to work around this.

It is also a good idea to order extra abrasive.

jtk

[Lenore Epstein]

I'm pretty new to sharpening, but the 80 and 120 grit ceramic/alumina sanding belts I saw used on a Chris Schwarz hand plane rehab video changed my whole grinding game. This is my favorite brand:
http://www.amazon.com/Norton-Performance-Portable-Sanding-Zirconia/dp/B0077383GG/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1458891843&sr=8-2&keywords=Norton+3X+sanding+belt
They're extremely durable, way better than even the better quality sheet abrasives I tried, the abrasive cuts really fast, and I don't have to stop and change paper in the middle of a task, which means the work is done long before my hands get tired or my mind starts to wander, so my bevels stay straight and plane bottoms and blade backs and edges get flat before I have the chance to round them over or otherwise mess them up. Instead of spreading metal dust around with a brush or clogging my vac's filter I drag a big old magnet down the belt to gather up the particles, then dunk the magnet in my bucket and wipe with a microfiber cloth to contain the swarf.

The only downside is having to use spray adhesive, but not nearly as often as with sheet abrasives, and the hassle is minimal if I use a large sturdy box to keep the fumes away from my face when I spray outdoors, apply it sparingly and only to the paper (not the stone), letting it almost dry before laying the belt down, and remove residue by leaving Windex on it for a few minutes before wiping it up with a heavy paper towel.

BTW, I got my dead flat 6" x 22" stone for $2.00 at the Habitat for Humanity store. I'd prefer granite over the slightly porous limestone I found, but all the granite off-cuts were just way too big the day I was there.

As for honing and sharpening, I use a guide because of my proclivity toward spaciness, and I like my affordable 1000 and 5000 grit Kuromaku Shaptons I found on Amazon, which are the Japanese-market version of Shapton Pros. They feel nice, don't dish out quickly, and cut well (I'm going to replace the 8000 with a 12000 grit for a better polish). I also have a King Deluxe 400 grit stone to remove the 120 grit scratches. It works okay and wears more like a ceramic stone than most Kings, but I'm still in the market for a nicer intermediate stone...

I hope something in there is helpful!

[Patrick Chase]

It comes down to whether or not you have enough blade work to need a power system or not. If you have 10 blades or less human powered sharpening might cover it.

My accumulation of blades is in the hundreds. My sharpening regimen needs some kind of power assist.

This is the one I use:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=48435&cat=1,43072

I bought one years ago when it was a little lower in price. I purchased extra holders so multiple blades could be worked. When one got warm it could be cooling while another blade was being worked. It has been used for many blades from axes to scythes.

This is the same "LV Mk II" machine that I referenced in my reply to Malcom's post.



The one feature I do not like is it is set up to automatically make a secondary bevel. It is easy to work around this.


In case it isn't obvious, the "workaround" Jim mentions is to order extra thick platters and not use the thin ones.

[Kees Heiden]

Dry grinder with a very coarse wheel, 36 or 46 grit. Also get a diamond dresser and keep the wheel clean. Use a light touch, cool the edge often in a pale of water. Move the blade back and forth from right to left all the time.

This is the most effective method and rather cheap.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Thanks, I've tried sandpaper on glass...Pretty slow....especially when you blunt a tip, and have considerable material to remove. Maybe I need to try different paper. Would a coarse waterstone be better?.

I looked at a worksharp. Looks like a piece of cheap Chinese junk...correct me if I am wrong, and by the time I get everything I need, I have $$$ invested. I dont mind spending the money.. but not on plastic...

I thought the same, but found a great deal on the 2000 model and must say it does a great job. I use it often for fixing broken knife tips and for buffing small knife blades. (I sharpen knives for extra tool money.) I wish I had gotten the 3000, which has a slower rpm. To set a bevel on an iron it is quick and easy. Lots of good tools have plastic casings. The business end is metal. It is, however, an expensive option.

Diamond stones are a great option, but do not go too aggressive of a grit, or you will be forever getting the scratch pattern out, which is why I prefer a coarse waterstone.

[Archie England]

Dry grinder with a very coarse wheel, 36 or 46 grit. Also get a diamond dresser and keep the wheel clean. Use a light touch, cool the edge often in a pale of water. Move the blade back and forth from right to left all the time.

This is the most effective method and rather cheap.


+1

I've divided "sharpening" into four categories: shaping (reestablishing bevels), cutting (removal of significant metal to edge sharpness), honing (much less able to remove metal, just sharpens more), and polishing (produces the ultimate edge).

Since you're asking the first level of shaping, the dry or wet grinders are fantastic for QUICKLY reshaping a damaged edge. The only stone that I've got that can do this is a Sigma (120). I refuse to put blade backs on it because it so deeply scores the metal. But on bevels, it will chew through a damaged edge faster than any other medium, except the grinders (wet or dry)--sometimes, I can beat the speed of my Tormek but never the dry grinder. I had a Shapton professional 120, but it's not that powerful. OTOH, what drives me to the grinders is the time savings. My other lower grit stones (oil, water, or diamond) will work; they just work slower. The wet grinder (Tormek) is much slower than the dry grinder yet produces an edge that is superbly better (about 5000 grit smoothness off the leather wheel). So, the longer time spent on the Tormek yields an edge that is far better than the one off my dry grinder. Both happen at much greater time savings than stones (of any kind). I've tried sandpaper but deem that as similar to the stones.

One real disadvantage of the grinders is the poorer performance or inability for dressing blade backs. (And, I still "fear" drawing the temper of a blade--especially narrower chisels--on my dry grinder.)

[Robert Engel]

Jim,

I did not read al the post, so I apologize if this is repetitive.

For re-establishing a bevel or to hollow grind, you need a bench grinder or else you're in for a lot of work.

You also need some coarser stones which will come in handy also for flattening the backs.

My suggestions:
1. A bench grinder. Throw away the stock wheels and get good quality ones.
2. Extra coarse and coarse diamond plates
3. A middle grit water stone, like 600 grit.
4. Honing guides are good to establish secondary bevel angle, but I encourage you to learn to sharpen freehand.
Good luck with everything.

[Daniel Rode]

For me, a standard bench grinder works best. I chose to get an 8" slower speed grinder and added a white norton wheel but a 6" grinder with the included stones will also work. You just need to be careful not to burn the edge as it will soften the steel. A coarse wheel is best to prevent burning. Check out this article by Joel Moskowitz (http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/article/grind-perfect-edges-without-burning.aspx)on how to grind tool edges.

One of the keys is to not remove ALL of the secondary bevel. I use the grinder to remove all but a little sliver, then hone the edge per usual. Fast and easy. A coarse or extra coarse diamond stone is another simple option. It's more effort, but pretty inexpensive overall and you can use your honing guide.

The belt grinders and CBN wheels seem like great options, but I've never tried them and they can get expensive.

[Robert Hazelwood]

As you can see, there are a bunch of ways to do this. In the long run you'll want a grinder- it's useful for many things besides working on blades. A belt sander can also work and is what I use.

For now, assuming you don't have any power equipment, I would recommend course sandpaper (60, 80 grit) on something flat. Use a honing guide set to the primary bevel angle, and with fresh sandpaper it shouldn't take too long. Do not extend the primary all the way out to the edge as you don't want 60 grit scratches on the apex- just work until the secondary bevel has been reduced to a reasonable size.

My experience with very coarse waterstones and diamond stones have not been so good. The coarse waterstones tend to shed a lot of abrasive, so they go out of flat very easily and make a big mess. Coarse diamond stones are useful for many tasks, but I find my EC DMT to be pretty slow at this kind of thing. "Extra Course" for DMT is still 220 grit after all, and these stones lose a lot of their initial bite after a while.

[Jim Koepke]

In case it isn't obvious, the "workaround" Jim mentions is to order extra thick platters and not use the thin ones.

I actually have a pair of both thickness platters. The were ordered for this purpose as Patrick mentions. With the same thickness platters there is still a difference due to the different thicknesses of the abrasive sheets.

To make up the difference between the platers with the thicker heavy grit abrasive sheets and the thinner fine grit sheets I put shims under the platters. For shim material I use the backing sheets from the abrasive disks.

Now days I do not use the fine sheets much on straight blades. In fact, once my bevel is formed it isn't often a blade needs to come back to the powered grinder except to remove an unintentionally formed secondary bevel.

jtk

[Scott DelPorte]

I use a standard 6" grinder to put a hollow grind on the bevel using a fairly fine white wheel (cant remember the grit offhand), then sharpen by hand on a series of Norton water stones. I go very lightly with the grinder on the bevel and take the hollow grind from the center of the bevel surface leaving both edges intact. I use a sharpie to see where I am grinding and to make sure I leave both edges. I am taking so little metal that it really never heats up to the point of feeling warm, and the bevel is extremely shallow. This leaves very little metal to be removed on the sharpening stones since the bevel is riding on its edges, and it goes very quickly. Maybe 30 seconds on each stone. On thin blades, I can only touch up a few times on the stones again before the hollow starts to narrow and I go back to the grinder.