Paul Sellers' panel saw

[Clay Parrish]

I have seen several Paul Sellers vids where he uses a handy little panel saw to rip boards at his bench. What I can't seem to find out is what size and tpi (or make) that the saw is (maybe 'it' is actually several saws). Sellers has posted so much material on saws, I am having trouble finding info on that one.

It seems like a convenient size for smaller rip jobs. I currently have nothing between my Veritas rip dovetail saw and a big 26" Disston D-8 8 tpi rip saw. I would like something for ripping small boards for boxes or little bookcases.

This is the best pic I could find.

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[Phil Mueller]

He (or someone) is pretty good about answering email. You may want to go to his blog and post the question with picture.

[Nick Stokes]

I have seen several Paul Sellers vids where he uses a handy little panel saw to rip boards at his bench. What I can't seem to find out is what size and tpi (or make) that the saw is (maybe 'it' is actually several saws). Sellers has posted so much material on saws, I am having trouble finding info on that one.

It seems like a convenient size for smaller rip jobs. I currently have nothing between my Veritas rip dovetail saw and a big 26" Disston D-8 8 tpi rip saw. I would like something for ripping small boards for boxes or little bookcases.

This is the best pic I could find.

334315


I've seen nearly every video and read every blog. Best I can remember it is either an 18 or 20" disston, filed rip.

PS advocates for all of your saws to be filed Rip. He does this to help beginners to not feel overwhelmed. When he films, he is very careful not to use all of the fancy stuff like jointer planes and veritas low angle stuff... he wants to show that a rip saw would work fine, as would a stanley #4...

In his private work, he would most definitely use a cross and a rip panel saw.

[Mike Allen1010]

For ripping thin stock (>3/4") vertically at the bench, I've had good luck using a 20 inch, 11 PPI panel saw filed rip. The finer pitch makes for a smoother final sawn surface and still moves right along. I also have an 8 PPI panel saw filed rip for thicker stock.

FWIW, I find panel saws in general really convenient when working at the bench on smaller components like drawer and door parts. Lightweight and maneuverability make them much easier to use than full-sized saws, and in some cases easier than backsaws, for some of these smaller scale sawing jobs.

Best, Mike

[lowell holmes]

You can cut a handsaw down, make one, ebay, or the best bet go to Lie Nielsen.

I've re-handled one and made one by cutting down a hand saw. The saw plate on the cut down saw is a bit wide for my tastes, but it works.
I filed it rip.

My panel saw is an old one that I put a new handle on and sharpened it. It is crosscut and does a nice job. I sometimes rip with it.
If you haven't looked at the Lie Nielsen saws, do so. Maybe you will want to buy one or use the image in making one.

[lowell holmes]

[In his private work, he would most definitely use a cross and a rip panel saw.][/QUOTE]

I attended classes at Waco Texas when he was there. The saws in the class were all filed rip. I saw him making things and he used the class saws.

Tage Frid (RIP) advocated filing all saw rip. I have saws filed crosscut and rip. I like the feel of a cross cut saw, but a 10 tpi rip saw will do just fine on cross cut.

Often the cuts were cleaned up with hand planes.

[Patrick Chase]

Sellars spells his preferences and logic out pretty clearly in these articles:

https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/questions-answered-why-crosscut-pattern-saws-dominate-part-i/
https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/why-crosscut-saws-dominate-part-ii/

TLDR - He's not dogmatic, and urges people to choose based on convenience and affordability. Note that the resulting recommendations are quite different for people who file their own saws vs ones who don't.

[Kees Heiden]

Hmmm, that was the typical kind of stuff Sellers writes. Two pages of randomly dispersed opinion without any real information. He starts as usual claiming that the shop he worked at, back in the fifties, presented the ultimate in hand tool skills, and that the millenia of handtool woodworking before him didn't really exist. Then the usual stab at the current toolmakers. And then page on page of wandering thoughts without much clear information.

Ripsaws can be used for crosscuts, but you'd better relax the rake angle quite a bit. A dedicated ripsaw is a lousy cross cutter. So, when you slowly accumulate your set of tools, it is not a bad idea to learn to sharpen your own saws and have some saws dedicated to specific tasks.

In comtrast, when I watch a Sellers video, the impression he makes is completely different. Those are usually informative and well presented and you can see that he really is a good craftsman.

[Chris Hachet]

[In his private work, he would most definitely use a cross and a rip panel saw.]

I attended classes at Waco Texas when he was there. The saws in the class were all filed rip. I saw him making things and he used the class saws.

Tage Frid (RIP) advocated filing all saw rip. I have saws filed crosscut and rip. I like the feel of a cross cut saw, but a 10 tpi rip saw will do just fine on cross cut.

Often the cuts were cleaned up with hand planes.[/QUOTE]

I usually touch things up with a hand plane to get them to fit just the way I want after cutting. One way hand tool woodworking is easier IMHO....I can get an exact fit much easier with a hand plane and a shooting board than I can by taking off a little bit at a time at my chop saw...

[Daniel Rode]

I wanted a small saw to use at the bench as well. I found an 18" saw listed as a 'boy's saw' on eBay. I think I paid $15 with shipping. You can see it here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?229074-Saw-restoration-1-hour-amp-1&highlight=). Another option is to find a larger saw and cut it down. I recently sharpened it and it's a pretty handy size. I have a mixed bag vintage of saws, none of them particularly good but the sharp ones cut wood pretty good.

I would like to eventually get a pair of decent panel saws.

[george wilson]

When we (The toolmakers in Wmsbg.) made a first big batch of crosscut and rip saws (sorry,we took no pictures),we filed both crosscut and rip saws rip. This was because Jay Gaynor,our boss at the time,thought all saws in the 18th. C. were filed straight rip,we found that the crosscut saws did not saw well compared to the modern type of crosscut filing. I looked at the unused saws in the Seaton Chest and decided their teeth were NOT sharpened at all,but were just punched out and left for the user to file. Most tools sold then did not have the edges finished. Chisels and gouges were supplied unhandled. So,we filed the crosscut saws properly,and they cut great.

Althouh the Seaton tools were unused,the teeth were very,very dark. It really was hard to tell what had been done to them. We were not allowed to clean the teeth for a better look,so I can understand the confusion about their filing.

[steven c newman]

My 10ppi "panel saw" was sold by a company from Cleveland, OH. and made by Atkins. It is filed rip, as well
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Works quite well, in fact.

[Patrick Chase]

Hmmm, that was the typical kind of stuff Sellers writes. Two pages of randomly dispersed opinion without any real information. He starts as usual claiming that the shop he worked at, back in the fifties, presented the ultimate in hand tool skills, and that the millenia of handtool woodworking before him didn't really exist. Then the usual stab at the current toolmakers. And then page on page of wandering thoughts without much clear information.

Yeah, he's not my favorite, but I figured that as long as people were claiming he advocated this or that we'd might as well have a link to (some of) the source material.

My favorite Sellars-ism was when he fulminated against the horrendous dangers of linseed oil and claimed that even rags laid flat will autoignite. He doesn't seem to get the simple concept of power density...

[lowell holmes]

He doesn't seem to get the simple concept of power density...[/QUOTE]

What is power density? Just wondering.. ... ......

[george wilson]

Power density aside,I recall when an oily rag(linseed oil) started smoking in the cabinet maker's shop. Had it burned that shop down,mine was connected to it. I never,ever leave rags with a drying oil in it laying around in my shop.

[Jim Koepke]

He doesn't seem to get the simple concept of power density...


What is power density? Just wondering.. ... ......

Not an expert, but boiled linseed oil produces heat when it polymerizes. If a rag is spread out on a nonflammable surface the heat will not be able to reach a point of combustion in most cases. If the rag is wadded up tightly, the internal heat build up may rise to the point of combustion.

To be specific, power equals the energy created by the polymerization of boiled linseed oil. The density of this energy causes it to increase into a high enough temperature causing combustion.

Please realize that this is my understanding of the term and I may be totally wrong. It has helped me in preventing flaming rags in my shop and work spaces.

Like George says, best to not leave them laying around.

jtk

[Ray Bohn]

There are a few out there. I picked this up for under $50 including shipping from used tool seller.
No. 7, 20" 11pt xcut. It took a hour of cleaning.

[lowell holmes]

Thanks Jim, I get the gist of it. I had never heard the term before.

I'm terrified about oil finishes and application rags. If I can't do it any other way, I'll put the spent rags in a bucket of water outside in the middle of the yard.

I will otherwise lay a rag outside on a hard surface and let it dry. Metal garbage can lids make a good place to lay them.

[george wilson]

I prefer to not take chances with oily rags. If my shop burned down,I'd never be able to replace the many years of tools I have made and accumulated. I put them outside till they get dry,then throw them out.

Nice saw find,Ray.

[Patrick Chase]

Not an expert, but boiled linseed oil produces heat when it polymerizes. If a rag is spread out on a nonflammable surface the heat will not be able to reach a point of combustion in most cases. If the rag is wadded up tightly, the internal heat build up may rise to the point of combustion.

To be specific, power equals the energy created by the polymerization of boiled linseed oil. The density of this energy causes it to increase into a high enough temperature causing combustion.

Please realize that this is my understanding of the term and I may be totally wrong. It has helped me in preventing flaming rags in my shop and work spaces.

Like George says, best to not leave them laying around.

jtk

Yep, that's almost exactly right. It's actually areal power density that matters.

Rags spontaneously combust when they reach a certain (autoignition) temperature. Oily cotton autoignites at ~250F (BLO itself autoignites at 640F though, so I suspect that the standard "oily cotton" number may be assuming a different oil).

Polymerizing oils release a certain amount of power (as heat) per unit mass while they polymerize, and that heat must be dissipated from the surface of the rag. The rag's temperature will be roughly proportional to the amount of oil it contains (more volume -> more heating power -> higher temperature) divided by its exposed surface area (more area -> better power dissipation -> lower temperature). That's the areal power density.

When you wad or fold a rag up, or stack a bunch of rags on top of teach other, you hide most of their surface area, and that's a Very Bad Thing (tm). That's why the standard advice is to hang used rags such that both sides of the rag (front and back) are exposed to air. If you do that you'll notice that they stay cool to touch during polymerization. In contrast a wadded rag will easily reach ignition, particularly if airflow is poor.

It doesn't hurt to play it safe of course, though I'd note that laying it face down on a surface is worse than hanging unless that surface is conductive and acts as a radiator (George's metal lid is a good choice).

EDIT: The crazy thing about the Sellars post is that he was replying to somebody who was soaking a rag in BLO. Soaking -> no oxidation -> no polymerization -> no heat -> no problem. Not something that I'd personally do though - too much risk of forgetting about it while pouring the oil out or something like that.

[Glen Canaday]

There are a few out there. I picked this up for under $50 including shipping from used tool seller.
No. 7, 20" 11pt xcut. It took a hour of cleaning.

I picked up a 1900s 20" 10ppi xcut D8 for $1.50 at a thrift store. It's the saw that got me started on them.

I understand that size was really common, but I personally haven't seen them. There are worthwhile saws still out there.