Totally new to engraving

[Donato Marcantonio]

Hello, I am finally able to afford buying a used laser engraver. I have the chance to buy a Epilog Summit 25watt... for a fair price... at least I think, what would be a fair price for such a unit? The unit has been worked pretty hard in a production environment for years, and it's been unused for 2 years. The shop that's selling it has 13 laser cutters/engravers and 13 cnc routers. The laser is in working condition but they can't tell me how many hours are on the tube, they estimate between 5k to 10k. My guess is that the tube is probably passed the midpoint of its lifespan. I don't know the first thing about lasers and engraving... but I have always been interested. I am a IT tech, so I learn fast with tech equipement. Will it take long to learn how to use this? My main objective is to be able to cut balsa sheets up to 1/4 and ply up to 1/8 for r/c airplane models. I also own a small shop where I repair pcs, offer internet connectivity and printing and plotting services. In my hometown there is only one business with one engraver and he takes all the tags, small signs etc. laser jobs, I'd like to expand my business by offering those services as well...
Is this laser dependable and is it good like the newer units? I was also thinking about one of those Pinnacle M-series ones on ebay, they are more costly but noone seems to buy those, everybody prefers Epilog machines. Is it because they are made in the USA? or are they better in any respect?
oops too many questions, I know some of these questions might sound stupid, but I need to start somewhare in order to make an educated purchase. Thank you much in advance for any help that you might offer me.

[Gary Shoemake]

I have a Pinnicle M series machine that I bought directly from Signwarehouse.com. I really like the machine. The question you have to ask yourself, is what do you need in the way of support. Lasers do mainly the same things, there are a few variations, most just a kind of bells and whistle thing. Even though you are a "tech " kind of person there are still things to be said about having a system of support behind you for this kind of investment. Those that have their machines are mostly satisfied with them and the support level they have. If the laser tube is half way through it's life you might want to see how much a replacement will cost. There is also the issue of current drivers. I'm not sure which model of Epilog is having driver issues, but if you search the threads here you might find it.

Having said this, laser engraving is a fantastic field and you can do so many things. I wish you luck in your research.

Gary

[Donato Marcantonio]

thanks Gary. Well, you are totally right about the support, the thing is that if you spend 10k USD then support is very important, if you spend 4k for a Epilog summit, it's much easier to get your hands dirty when it comes to supporting and maintaining your own machine. I know the Summit engraver has a problem with drivers, it only has drivers for win95/98 if the firmware version is 3.3 but if you have firmware 5.1 or 5.3 then there are xp drivers for it. What problem is there with not being able to use XP drivers? Win 98 is ok, even though is a 16bit OS, I can't see what the problem is, most software available today is still compatible with win98... Plus it could be run in MS VirtualPC , a OS within a OS... and be able to trade files between the two OSs.
I can't seem to find any info searching in this forum, could you please post a link to a thread about this problem? Thanks.
Tony

[Rodne Gold]

We work our lasers in a production environment and its pretty hard. I wouldnt touch that machine with a bargepole. Like buying a taxicab that has been sitting in a barn for 2 yrs.
Any machine we "retire" , especially if we use that type of process , is knackered or not worth repairing.
The machine will most likely require a complete overhaul , Be sure you can get parts and what price they are, and at the end of it all , you will have spent a whack , only to have an old machine. Some great advances in machines and functionality have been made over the last 5 yrs.
Rather get a used refurbed laser from somewhere like www.usedlasers.com (http://www.usedlasers.com)

[Bruce Volden]

Donato,

"Win 98 is ok, even though is a 16bit OS, I can't see what the problem is, most software available today is still compatible with win98"

Newer software ie; CorelDraw 12 cannot be used on a WIN98 machine. That is one of my problems!! I have 2 old LMI machines that are "stuck" in WIN98 land. My Epilog TT is hooked to an XP and I do sometimes save files created on this unit in a previous version and drag it across the network. Just more steps, and I'm getting too old and fussy, whatever happened to computers getting easier??? :) Bruce

[Donato Marcantonio]

Donato,

"Win 98 is ok, even though is a 16bit OS, I can't see what the problem is, most software available today is still compatible with win98"

Newer software ie; CorelDraw 12 cannot be used on a WIN98 machine. That is one of my problems!! I have 2 old LMI machines that are "stuck" in WIN98 land. My Epilog TT is hooked to an XP and I do sometimes save files created on this unit in a previous version and drag it across the network. Just more steps, and I'm getting too old and fussy, whatever happened to computers getting easier??? :) Bruce

that should be easier that that. Say you buy a $200 used pc with a network card included, running win98 and a parallel port, and leave it on by the older system. Put this machine on the network, share the printer. Then on other network computers needing to use the engraver you map LPT1 port to the network address of the printer. If a driver is needed on these xp systems install the xp version, but the port should always be LPT1 or LPT2 mapped to the //win98machinename/oldlaser port.
have you tried if it works. This way all you have to do is hit print on the network computers and then the job starts engraving... or at least it should.

[Donato Marcantonio]

We work our lasers in a production environment and its pretty hard. I wouldnt touch that machine with a bargepole. Like buying a taxicab that has been sitting in a barn for 2 yrs.
Any machine we "retire" , especially if we use that type of process , is knackered or not worth repairing.
The machine will most likely require a complete overhaul , Be sure you can get parts and what price they are, and at the end of it all , you will have spent a whack , only to have an old machine. Some great advances in machines and functionality have been made over the last 5 yrs.
Rather get a used refurbed laser from somewhere like www.usedlasers.com (http://www.usedlasers.com)
Thanks Rodne, well the company selling it is ensuring me that it works just fine... should I have him test cut or test engrave some wood??

I am also bidding on a 24TT with only 100 hours on ebay
I am the current high bidder, but we are at 9600$ and I am not sure I will go any higher than 10k on it... it's a 45w laser though. I think it will shoot up to 11 or 12k in the last hour or last minutes.

Is a 12w Pinnacle M-series worth considering?
I need to cut balsa and 1/8 aircraft plywood.

[Roy Brewer]

Is a 12w Pinnacle M-series worth considering?
I need to cut balsa and 1/8 aircraft plywood.

Donato,
Take into account that I am an Epilog/Xenetech distributor when you consider my comments.

While I have no experience with the GCC 12 watt, I don't think any 12 watt would cut .25" balsa w/o badly burning it. I'd definitely explore your other options. Most of us feel like the only purpose for the 10/12 watt systems is to get someone interested and then upsell them to a machine that will really do the job.

I'd almost assure you that the current owner of the Summit has a power meter (with a dozen lasers, they should). Have them confirm what the power is on that Summit *at the table.* That doesn't really mean it will last another 20,000 hours, but it will confirm that it still has enough power to get the job done. From a slightly different perspective than Rodney, my experience has been that if a machine has not been used for two years it is *dead.* The current owner may think it is still as good as when they "retired" it, but my experience says that letting a laser tube set idle for that long will very often ruin it.

Really sounds like a great buy on the Summit if it is confirmed to be in working condition at appropriate wattage, but if you are capable of spending $10,000, the newer VersaLaser or Mini would be my recommendation (if you don't get the 45wattTT which also sounds like a fantastic buy).

[Bruce Volden]

Donato,

"If a driver is needed on these xp systems install the xp version, but the port should always be LPT1 or LPT2 mapped to the //win98machinename/oldlaser port"


Therein lies my problem~there are no drivers put out by LMI for XP! And XP will not recognize my present drivers~even in emulation mode :(
Bruce

[Lee DeRaud]

...the company selling it is ensuring me that it works just fine... should I have him test cut or test engrave some wood??ABSOLUTELY. Even if true, the fact that it "works just fine" doing the kind of work they were doing with it means nothing unless you're planning on using it for the same kind of work. Do not even think about writing the check until you know it will do the kind of cutting you want to do with it.

[Rodne Gold]

As roy says , 12w is pretty mickey mouse for anything barring engraving. Balsa cuts exceptionally fast - thinner stuff as fast as paper - so in reality in this application speed is the issue - I think with a 30w we cut at about 100% speed and 10% power (3w) for 2mm balsa (almost 1/8) We have never cut 1/4"
The wood is another story, especially ply as it saps huge amounts of power. for this you need lots of welly - the 45w sounds good. Even with our 30w , cutting is possible , however charring is an issue - for clean cuts in wood like plywood with resins and binders and glues , you need a lot of power , much like burning a hole in paper - a cigarette lighter will do it but a pencil type soldering torch will do it quicker with a less messy hole.
That other laser sounds like my vette - I bought a 1980 in tatty condition but "working" for a song , had sat idle for 2 yrs - I drove it a bit and soon discovered all the little nigles and things that were failing and decided to have it reconned and restored - been a year now and has set me back a small fortune!!!
So now I ride a scooter !! (Ok its a 600c scooter - but still a scooter)

[Donato Marcantonio]

Gee, you guys are great... so many advices, thanks for helping out a total stranger, and making me feel at home. I will do as you say, I will send a couple files to the tech guy of their company and have him cut them in 1/8" aircraft ply, then show me the result. I will also ask him to check out the power and the optics. I have unfortunately lost the auction, my highes bid was 10.1K it sold for 13.7k . But it was a good laser... now I am bidding on a mini 18x12 35w. Don't know what it will go for, but it should be around 10k. The good thing about this mini is that it seems to come with a vector tray and vacuum table, so it seems ready to run.

the other main problem is that I live in Italy right now, I moved from the US 2 years ago (my wife kinda gave me an ultimatum). My business is located here... Lasers in Europe are exactly double the money. say a 25 watt Mercury runs around 16k €uro while a 25w Pinnacle M-series (same machine) will run 9,500$ in the US, which is less then 8K €uro. The plan is to have them shipped to my parent's house in Northern Virginia, then they will find out what it costs to ship the thing with a 10k insurance.
The only problem could be the 20% customs fee. I guess I will have to modify the receipt so the customs ppl will think it only costs 1 or 2k $.
I hate to pay huge unfair taxes any more than I have to.

My other problem is the cost, 10k is my absolute maximum for a complete system that allows me to cut. I have a very high demand from fellow rc modellers in Italy waiting for me to get the thing, so at the beginning I think most of the revenue from the laser will come from model cutting. There is also a pretty sizeable demand for stamps, since the only guy in town with a laser charges a fortune for stamps and name tags etc... Then I will be able to start experimenting with raster picture engravings. One of the few cool things about Italy is that we have lots of marble for cheap, solid black, solid green, no problem, about 2$ per square foot in small quantities, much less in large quantities.

[Donato Marcantonio]

Donato,

"If a driver is needed on these xp systems install the xp version, but the port should always be LPT1 or LPT2 mapped to the //win98machinename/oldlaser port"


Therein lies my problem~there are no drivers put out by LMI for XP! And XP will not recognize my present drivers~even in emulation mode :(
Bruce

Bruce... I am sorry to hear that, it really sux when manufacturers stop supporting their equipement... still I would try the emulation mode with xp home , and xp pro, and also on different pcs. sometimes what doesn't work on one pc works on the other, and what doesn't work with one version of xp works on xppro.
Another thing you could try is to use a shared drive or folder of the server or any designated network machine to save all your jobs to. Then use a remote control software like "Timbuctu", to remote control the win98 machine , and send the job to the printer without leaving your desk, it's an extra step but it's only a virtual step, the monitor on the win98 machine can be turned off.
Also a batch file that does this could be easily written.

[Donato Marcantonio]

ere are a couple pics of the machine as it is now

[Donato Marcantonio]

It looks a bit dirty on the inside... but again I don't know the first think of what it should look on the inside. The guy also said that they have a couple replacement belts and motors for it.

[James Stokes]

I think I would steer clear of that one. I do not think I would trust it.

[Joe Pelonio]

I have the Epilog 24TT 45 watts, bought it new 18 mo ago for $16k.
First, anything less wattage will be hard to cut anything more than 1/8"
thick. Buying a used machine with a lot of hours is asking for a big bill.
My laser tube, while still on warranty went out, the replacement would
have been $2,300. The mfr rates the tube at 10,000 hours which means
the used one you considered is at the END of it's life. If you can possibly
wait, save up, or lease, the newest Epilog machines have built in vaccum
table, and after running mine for all this time I can tell you that tat is a
very desirable, time saving feature that I wish I had. When cutting paper
or posterboard stencils I end up with bits flying out the exhaust all over
the parking lot at the shop. So far very happy with the Epilog. The only
other problem was my vector grid honeycomb wore out, but the replacement
was only $41 and I got it the next day.

[Donato Marcantonio]

Thanks for the advice... at the end I think I will not buy that particular ab-used machine... I am currently looking into this one:


Epilog-Radius-25W-Laser-Engraver
This is very low hours compared, and it's been owned by a private... I bet it's only got a couple hundred hours on it at most. If it sells for the lower amount fine, but the buy now price seems too high.

[Gary Shoemake]

Hi
I sent a PM to you just want to let you know.



Gary

[Bruce Larson]

I have been cutting a fair number of R/C kits. I have an Epilog Legend EX 60 watt and cannot cut 1/4" aircraft (7 Ply) with my laser. I can burn it up, but cannot get an acceptable cut in this material. I always use either my table saw or my CNC router for this material. If you are planning to cut a large quantity of 1/4" ply, I suggest you look for an alternative process.
The balsa wood cuts like butter, even with a 25 watt machine, but true aircraft plywood is a different animal completely.