Sled vs Miter Saw

[Tom Peterson]

My wife is in the final stages of finishing a cut list for our cabinets (this is a joint effort), and Gail's previous gloat post got me thinking if I should be using a cross-cut sled to do the final length for my face frame pieces as opposed to using my SCMS with stop blocks. Most of the time Norm uses the table saw. What do you think? BTW the list is 157 pieces.

[Sam Blasco]

Sled will yeild more consistent results and be quicker for that many pieces. But, really, either will do the job. Depends on if you like to keep your hands at waist level or shoulder height -- think about it.

[Mike Vermeil]

Tom,

My guess is you will get a 50/50 split on this topic; 50% for SCMS/CMS and 50% for crosscut sled. You may even get a couple RAS hold-outs.

For what it's worth, I believe either method is fine, as long as proper set-up and technique is used. An accurate sled is of course a great way to go, but I generally use my SCMS. Some people feel an SCMS is not as accurate, but it's been my experience that as long as you set the fence properly on either device (sled or SCMS) you'll be OK. With the SCMS, just make sure to use the proper technique of pulling the raised saw blade beyond the workpiece, lowering the blade & sliding it back through the board. I've found that saw blades tend to deflect some when plunged directley into boards (as with a simple CMS), which in this case would lead to gaps at the face frame joints.

With 157 pieces to cut, the speed of a SCMS fitted with a stop block may also be of some benefit.

[jack duren]

#1 you dont "plunge" into boards with a miter saw.
#2 a sled is by no means faster than a miter saw with a stop
#3 miter saws are just as acurate as a tablesaws is tuned correctly. dont start a project till it tuned.
#4thin kerf blades, especially 12" can offer deflection especially as they dull.

how i know this? been building face frames in production for 22 yrs. if a sled was faster and more accurate we would have picked up on it a long time ago....jack

[Bernie Weishapl]

Tom,

I helped two of my brothers with their kitchen cabinets. My youngest brother used a SCMS and my oldest brother used a sled. Just my opinion is that my oldest brother seemed to get more consistant cuts. I use a sled when I am doing multiple cuts.

Bernie

[Dennis Peacock]

I've used both for this type of work. CMS does fine and when used with a stop block, all pieces are cut the same length and unless you are a production shop....speed should not be a big concern...but accuracy of cut. On my CMS, I make sure I'm using a full kerf blade to help minimize blade deflection. One thing I have learned? I'm not "chopping" the wood, but allowing the blade to "cut" the wood. Too me a while to learn that one. :rolleyes:

I also use a sled with stop block. This makes good competition for my CMS as once the stop is set, I can cut just as quick with a sled as I can with my CMS.

The real choice is yours to make. Use a SMCS/CMS if that is what you are most comfortable with and have more confidence in using. Just make sure it is tuned up so all your cuts will be square on the cut end. DAMHIKT!!!
Use a sled if you have one that cuts squarely and can use a stop block with it. If you are more comfy with a sled? Then I'd use a sled. The key is cutting the pieces to the same length....thus the use of a stop block comes into play.

All this and $2 will buy you a cup of coffee with refills at your local cafe'. :D

[JayStPeter]

For that many parts, I'd do whatever is fastest overall.
I have a Jointech SmartMiter and CMS. The nice thing about the sled is the cuts are using my excellent selection of TS blades. I can get a super clean cut. I have a premium blade for the CMS, but still get some of what I hesitate to call tearout (more like shredding or fuzz). Whatever I call it, it requires some effort to go back and cleanup depending on what joinery will be done to the part.
The CMS with a good stop would clearly be faster for that many parts. If they required cleanup ... maybe not.

Jay

[Chris Giles]

Tom,

I would like to decisively recommend the Mitre saw. This machine was developed specifically for this purpose and does it quickly and perfectly. A thick blade and a proper tune are required for good results, But especially a SHARP blade. Wicked, Razor Sharp! The blade should either have just come out of the package, or from the sharpener's shop. A miter saw fitted out like this will sing through this job. On speed, accuracy and convenience all taken together, a table saw with sled simply can't compete.

[Jim Becker]

I've used both and each is perfectly capable of doing the job, although I'll add two things relative to the miter saw:

1) Check your setup and tool alignment carefully to be sure it's exactly at 90º, both horizontally and vertically. Don't assume that the fence is true! (Mine isn't...so I don't use the tool for "critical" cuts)
2) Consider using scrap for auxiliary fencing to reduce tear-out at the back of the cut. No matter how sharp your blade is, the stock fence on a CMS or SCMS has way too big of an opening to properly support the wood during the completion of the cut. Often "ok" for interior trim work, but not necessarily desirable for face frames that are more "in your face"

I tend to use the table saw for these precision cuts because it's more comfortable for me and because of all the zero-clearance advantages, especially if the final product is getting a clear finish and filling is not an option. My CMS just isn't a quality tool in that respect, despite having an awesome blade on it. The tool itself is, umm...inconsistant.

[jack duren]

" No matter how sharp your blade is, the stock fence on a CMS or SCMS has way too big of an opening to properly support the wood during the completion of the cut. Often "ok" for interior trim work, but not necessarily desirable for face frames that are more "in your face""


"My CMS just isn't a quality tool in that respect, despite having an awesome blade on it. The tool itself is, umm...inconsistant."

an inconsistant cut is one of two reasons. the saw is out of tune or the user is out of tune.

a zero clearance insert and a fresh backer board will eliminate any chipping as it would on a sled. i would rather have most if not my equipment including the RAS tuned and accurate for what ever task is presented.

[Don Baer]

" No matter how sharp your blade is, the stock fence on a CMS or SCMS has way too big of an opening to properly support the wood during the completion of the cut. Often "ok" for interior trim work, but not necessarily desirable for face frames that are more "in your face""


"My CMS just isn't a quality tool in that respect, despite having an awesome blade on it. The tool itself is, umm...inconsistant."

an inconsistant cut is one of two reasons. the saw is out of tune or the user is out of tune.

a zero clearance insert and a fresh backer board will eliminate any chipping as it would on a sled. i would rather have most if not my equipment including the RAS tuned and accurate for what ever task is presented.

That and a quality blade make my CMS one of my favorite tools. I replaced the stock blade 40T balde with a high quality 60T blade standard kerf. I made face frames from red oak for a dresser I made for my granddaughter and when the were assempled the were dead on. I made two set of face frames one for the front and the other for the back and the piece were interchagable. When assembled you could lay one on top of the other and they were a perfect match. I only use my TS when the boards are wider then 3 1/2 inches. Mine not a slider.

[Jim Becker]

Exactly, Jack. On the second point I failed to expand upon the idea of equiping the CMS with a secondary fence as you thankfully showed. (I do have a zero-clearance insert in the machine)

As to the inconsistancy...in this case, it's the tool. I've been fighting with it since I bought it years ago and even with replacement parts from Delta...twice (at their cost), it's been a loser. It will be dead on one weekend and "not" the next. I haven't replaced it simply because I have so many other ways to make the precision cuts in my shop and the money is better used for other things.


an inconsistant cut is one of two reasons. the saw is out of tune or the user is out of tune.

a zero clearance insert and a fresh backer board will eliminate any chipping as it would on a sled. i would rather have most if not my equipment including the RAS tuned and accurate for what ever task is presented.

[jack duren]

thin or regular kerf blades Jim?....jack

[Jim Becker]

thin or regular kerf blades Jim?....jack

There are no thin-kerf blades in my shop...Forrest ChopMaster on the CMS. (Forrests used on the TS, too) The blade cuts beautifully. The problem is with the fence on the machine...it bends and moves with tempurature changes or phases of the moon or whatever. It's always been a problem. Now I know I said that I haven't moved to replace the saw since I have options...but after thinking about it for a few more minutes, I likely will do so sometime in the near future as the brake no longer functions, either. But it will have to wait a bit...major expenses with our adoptions and a new family vehicle "just on the horizon".

[Richard Wolf]

Jack, looking at your picture, if I am correct in assuming that is a secondary fence, of what purpose does it serve? It doesn't act as a zero clearence becuase you have mitered the edges to accomidate angle cuts.
I make my living in front of a SCMS, and think spending a few minutes checking for squareness and plumb cut will go a long way to doing the job correctly.
I have found that the biggest problem people have with CMS is the two fences not being coplaner. Even if they are one piece, you can remove the whole fence and tweak it back to flat.

Richard

[scott spencer]

That's an easy choice for me....my CMS is junk, so I tend to use the sled unless the pieces are too long.

[Mark Singer]

I have an accurate Hitachi SCMS in a built - in set up. The sled if well made is a more accurate way to crosscut precisely... care must be taken in making the sled...

[Tom Peterson]

thanks to all for the great input. I am leaning toward a new blade and zero clearance fence on the SCMS. For my smaller plywood carcass pieces I'll spend my wifes hard earned money and buy a sled. thanks again to all for your thoughts.

[Jim Becker]

For my smaller plywood carcass pieces I'll spend my wifes hard earned money and buy a sled.

You're a woodworker, Tom...make the sled... ;) Buy some nice wood with the money!

[jack duren]

Richerd the Dewalt miter saw in the picture is my "job site" saw. cabinet installs but mainly re-facing. it started out square but all good things come to an end when trimming comes. 4 screws and off we are again with a new fence ;) .

im not much of a 12" saw man. too much deflection on hard woods if in too big a hurry and worse as the blade wears. trimming houses and work in the field almost always require the depth of the 12" not to mention sliders.

in the shop my most accurate saw is this out of date,out of safety gear :eek: :eek: antique. i said 2 yrs ago it was almost shot but its a "pink" bunny :D . as accurate as it is, its not the safest tool by any means(picture). i bought this saw from woman whos deceased husband was a serious woodworker. i could tell she didnt want to part with the tools, but im sure she had no choice(bills). bought this and several other tools(craftsman). i just dont have the heart to put the saw to sleep(if one can understand where im coming from :) ). saw was bought "used" in 1984-85.

[Richard Wolf]

Jack, I know what you are saying about the guards, but I always remove mine. I just don't think you can work accuratly and quickly enough with those guards in the way. One hand on the handle and the other holding the wood is a safe situation. I know there are still problems and care must be taken.

Richard

[Tom Peterson]

Jim,
actually, I was contemplating getting a miter sled, not just a cross cut. Lots of good choices just need to decide. the last year was spent putting on a three season room (with full basement), remake of the laundry room (added 25%) and adding 60% onto the garage. We just finished fixing the landscape in July, took a break in August and now onto the kitchen. I'll get some pictures up soon, to apease the picture gods. we're really quite happy and proud of the project. thanks for your input from last spring on cabinets.

[Dan Stuewe]

Just wanted to throw out my thoughts. I had a quick job to make a couple hundred 1.5"x1.5"x1.5" cubes a few years ago. Acuracy was not a concern and we just bought a few 2x2s from Home Depot. The thought of using the miter saw quickly went away when I concidered the number of cuts, the screaming universal motor, the jump after every start and waiting for it to stop after each cut. I set up a stop block on my table saw and ran those through lickity split. The saw wasn't turned off much, I had some sort of dust collection and my miter saw has a fair bit more life in it (my opinion). Bottom line, i'd use a table saw.

[Matt Woodworth]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that a (S)CMS is nicer for long boards. I have a good sled (smartmiter) that I get a lot of use from. However, without a (S)CMS or RAS I don't really have good way to take my 10' boards down to their rough length.

At some point I'm going to add a (S)CMS or RAS so that I have something for working with long boards.

[frank shic]

tom, my vote is for: NONE OF THE ABOVE! have you considered a sliding table attachment? i just finished building kitchen cabinets for my own kitchen and i found that spending the extra $300 for the delta sliding table made it RIDICULOUSLY easy to cut carcase parts, drawer sides as well as face frames accurately and repeatedly not to mention trimming the horns off of raised panel doors and drawer fronts. i'm also embarrassed to admit that i actually trimmed a couple of cabinet sides that were proud of the face frace with it as well.

BTW the udo schmidt book is an EXCELLENT guide to building kitchen cabinets. the only area where i disagree with the author is on the toe kick installation. if you use adjustable leg levelers, the installation of the base cabinets will be MUCH easier. double check the door dimensions that he uses as there's a simple error in arithmetic. also, make sure that the nailers on top of the sink base cabinet is not too wide otherwise you'll need to cut out extra for the sink. strongly consider prefinishing the cabinet parts before assembly.

one last bit of advice, make sure that in any cabinets at the end of the run that you make your face frace at least 1/2" proud of the case side to give yourself room for trimming to fit. i made the mistake of allowing only 1/4" and wound up cutting off the entire 1/4" and having to resort to whacking the upper cabinet with a rubber mallet until it fit!

[Richard Wolf]

I know better, but can't help myself!

Hard to believe that Dino hasn't been on to tell us the only safe and fastest way is with the EZ repeater.

Richard

[Lee DeRaud]

I know better, but can't help myself!

Hard to believe that Dino hasn't been on to tell us the only safe and fastest way is with the EZ repeater.I don't know if you were the first to think it, but you were the only one brave enough to say it. Give yourself a high-five.:cool:

[Richard Wolf]

Thanks Lee.

Richard

[Chris Giles]

Jim,

Those phases of the moon will get you every time. For some reason, they make me want to use a more aggressive sawblade.........:eek:

[Mike Stanton]

Jim if you replace the brushes on the chop saw the brake will work again. I had the same problem on my dewalt .Mike

[Jim Becker]

Jim if you replace the brushes on the chop saw the brake will work again. I had the same problem on my dewalt .Mike

Thanks for the tip, Mike. I'll talk to the local Delta service rep about getting the correct part. The saw is about 7 years old...so what you say makes sense.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

SCMS hands down. I use auxiliary fences and a stop block and things go very easily. Remember to score the wood on the first pass if you are using the SCMS to virtually eliminate tearout.

[Dev Emch]

Ahhhhh, Mike....

Did I hear RAS holdouts?:D I do like my antique DeWalt Beastie. Actually, I rebuilt this machine from a rust bucket so i know its in tune. I think Mike suggested that the cut list had 157 items? Well, with a large RAS and good fence and stop blocks, you can snitzle out multiple items in one set up. You can use many different ways to do this cut but I like the RAS. Somebody has to be a hold out for this lonely tool.:rolleyes: