45 degree angles

[Mike Trent]

Hello all,

This page could also have been titled "Yet Another Newbie's First Post"


I'll describe myself very briefly, ask my question, and then post my backstory for those who are interested. Here goes:


Me: I'm an intermediate novice. I know how basic use of shop tools, (and to respect and fear them like I would a firearm) but have never actually done any real woodworking beyond whittling-down a hot dog stick next to the camp fire, or helping my son assemble an acoustic guitar from a StewMac kit. Well, maybe a bit more, but not much.


Problem: I cant for the life of me cut four pieces of wood on a table saw, each of equal length, and each with a 45 degree angle at each end. Each and every time I think I've licked the problem, I fail. I lay the four pieces down, line them up, and there is ALWAYS a gap. I'm using a +/- 25-year old Delta 34-441 contractor's table saw. Have watched videos and read articles about saw adjustment, and have done the best I can with my limited skill and experience. FWIW I am practicing on pine 1x4s until I can get this step right.

Question: How do YOU all make your frames (or cut moulding, etc). Miter gauge? Sled? I'm about to give up on the Delta miter gauge (with fence and stop block I made), and make a sled. I've seen several sled plans on the internet -- do you have a favorite? I realize also I could spend $$ on an Incra miter or similar. Thanks for any wisdom you can share on how to make a simple frame. For crying out loud.

Tiny pic, rotated for some reason of the miter setup I've tried to use:
334061

Backstory: After retiring from a 30 year Army career, Dad fulfilled a dream and built a real shop in our big back yard, then filled it with just about any power or hand tool a woodworker would want. Most Delta stuff, with a little Craftsman, DeWalt and Grizzly thrown in. My brother and I joked "there goes our inheritance!"

After eighty years of a fully-liven life, Dad lost his battle with cancer last fall. His burial at Arlington was beautiful. He could have been killed many times by enemy fire in an unpopular war when I was a kid, but wasn't. All it took were a few evil cells. Cancer truly does suck.

My bro and I want to honor Dad's memory by making some wall clocks, in round frames, using his tools, in his dream shop, made by his children and grandchildren, with black walnut that came from his yard (he had the tree cut down and hired a guy with a portable mill to rough-cut the boards). I'll make more than a few of these, and give them to those who were special to Dad and/or the family.

I'll post pix of the project, if it ever gets off the ground. Right now I'm stuck until I can cut proper lengths and angles. I'm using this article for ideas, but am not sticking to the script: http://www.popularwoodworking.com/projects/oval-picture-frames

Thanks in advance for any suggestions

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

Welcome to the forum. I cut short miters, such as you describe for a wall clock, on my miter saw (chop saw). If the miter saw is adjusted accurately, the pieces will go together without gaps.

I also put ff size biscuits in the joint for extra strength and for alignment when gluing up. Take a look here (http://www.mikes-woodwork.com/RectangularTray.htm)for a tutorial on making a four side tray - skip the part about the veneer and jump ahead to the part where I make the sides.

Mike

[Brad Barnhart]

Welcome to the forum, Mike. The position you're in is a challenge to the experienced at times, not just beginners. First, before you make the decision to build a sled, have you squared your fence w/the table? Is your blade square w/the fence? & third, have you tried using a tri square to check the angle of your miter gauge? The best way is to use the 45* position of the square to set your miter gauge. Using a carpenters square, make sure the fence is completely square with the saw deck. And then, using the carpenters square, make sure your blade is 90* to the saw deck. If you have a jointer, face joint one side of your project material, & joint one edge. This will not only square up the face & edge, but allow it to lay flat & tight against the fence & miter gauge for more accurate cuts. Personally, this is the method I use. It may sound long winded, & my apologies. But, it's the best way I've found that works for me. Work safe.

[Shawn Pixley]

How well is your saw set up? If you've aligned miter slots to blade and calibrated your miter gauge and you get poor results, you have a technique problem. However, if the saw and miter gauge(s) are not properly aligned, there is little hope of getting things to work out. I built a dedicated sled for frames and other short miters.

We need more data to give you better advice.

[Mel Fulks]

I like "pinch dogs" for that type of gluing. That way you can glue all pieces except the last one, then cut the last piece a bit long and plane it on one end to fit the space. Then glue it. I also prefer a saw blade with fewer teeth for miters since one side of blade is cutting with grain and one side is cutting against grain. Remind yourself to focus on the relatively short places that will be part of the finished frame.

[lowell holmes]

I would adjust the joints with a block plane or by holding the offending joint flat on a work bench and using a fine hand crosscut saw, saw the joint so they will match.

[Jerry Thompson]

After making sure that the blade is 45* I set a stop on my miter fence so that all of the cuts are at the same length. That is the two longer ones are cut first then the shorter ones after adjusting the stop.
I used to not do miters often before I started using my miter fence stop. The first time I did it I almost fell over. It looked as if I had used a shooting board to tune up the miters. It is also a must that the material be milled flat and square.

[Gerry Grzadzinski]

How are you insuring the the miter gauge is set to 45°? That's probably the easiest thing to get wrong. It takes very little error here to end up with poor fitting miters.

Maybe pickup a 45° drafting triangle and use it to make sure your angle is correct.

If the angle is correct, and you use a stop block on your fence, you should have no trouble getting repeatable length parts at the correct angle.

Also double check that the blade is perpendicular to the table, and the the blade is sharp.

[Lee Schierer]

I used to have problems cutting 45 degree miters for picture frames, etc. Then I purchased the Kreg miter gauge. 334067 It has shot pins for the common angles, which makes setting 45's a breeze and repeatable. It also comes with a long fence that supports your work and also has an adjustable stop that allows cutting the opposite sides equal in length. The slide bar is adjustable in width to eliminate slop with your miter gauge slot.

Before gluing, stand your pieces on end with the points together and you can readily see if they are identical in length.

When gluing miters, you are essentially gluing end grain. End grain will suck the glue right out of the joint. I find that I get teh strongest joint when I apply glue to both sides of the joint to insure the joint is not glue starved.

[Bob Lang]

Another thing that can throw you off is material that is less than perfectly flat and straight.

Bob Lang

[Cary Falk]

I hate making picture frames. It not only requires getting all 8 angles right but the lengths spot on also. I have a INCRA 1000HD. I use the stop on the fence when I can and make a longer fence when I need. I also cheat a little. Most of my frames I make are dyed expresso or black so I dye my glue and it hides any minor gaps. I strengthen all corners with a biscuit or a corner spline.

[Cody Colston]

The problem probably lies with the miter gauge. It takes very little error leave an open miter. It could be that the miter gauge setting is off a hair or it could be a bit of slop in the miter track or both.

A dedicated shop-built miter sled would be a good option for ensuring consistent 45 degree miters in the future...or you can spend the bucks for an Incra jig. :D

[Art Mann]

I bought an Incra miter gauge similar to the one Lee is showing and it works very well. I have used it to cut hexagonal and octagonal pieces as well is square pieces. My saw is well tuned and the Incra was carefully calibrated when it was new. Nowdays, I use a miter sled to cut 45 degree angles because it is easier to move the wood across the blade without it slipping. There are all sorts of good DIY posts and videos on building an accurate sled. Let Youtube teach you how.

Edit: One more thing. I tried for years to get the miter gauges that come with new table saws to cut accurate 45 degree angles and I never had much success with any of them. I also have a sled that cuts 90 degrees and it is way better than the miter gauge that comes with a saw for many reasons.

[Mel Fulks]

This is one of those threads that I think some beginners will find contradictory. All replies are good, but for the op's
purpose the joints don't have to be accurate 45 degree angles,that's why for his particular project I like focusing on fit, not angle. For a frame that will be round,equal angle joints are not necessary.

[Phil Mueller]

Hi Mike, and welcome!
As an intermediate novice myself, I was quite frustrated as well in my first attempts at a picture frame. I mean, how hard can it be? Well, I too watched every video, read every article, and took the advice of the folks here.

I bought a decent quality triangle and spent a good deal of time making sure my contractor's saw was set up as perfect as possible. I ended up buying an Incra miter sled. I bought a negative rake saw blade (because something I read said that would make the best cut). I bought a professional miter clamp. I'm embarrassed to admit what the frame actually ended costing:eek:

As stated above, I think setting up the saw well, a good miter sled, clamping the stock so it doesn't move, and stop blocks to get exact lengths were key.

In the end, it turned out pretty well.

334102

It's a nice project you're working on...stay with it...

[Joseph Montroy]

I'm going to offer some advice that I learned the hard way about picture frames. For a reference, I make about 15 per summer. I think focusing on the cut (table saw, miter saw, etc.) Is an effort in futility for frames. Yes, setup is important. However, frames are fussy. The single best thing I did was get a Logan hand sander specifically for frames. Once I got that, the angles were a non-issue. Then I got the Incra miter guage for repeatability of lengths and so I didn't have to sand as much. Hope this helps. Frames for me now are a breeze.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I recommend that you solve one problem at a time.

Cutting same length with a miter. Stop blocks are key.

Getting the right angle, but, I don't think that you said that you had a problem with that.

Phil Mueller summed it up nicely I think.




As stated above, I think setting up the saw well, a good miter sled, clamping the stock so it doesn't move, and stop blocks to get exact lengths were key.

[Al Launier]

I would suggest you make yourself table saw sled. It's simple to make & there are quite a few videos on how to make one. Use hard maple, or other hard wood guides for the miter slots - they'll last longer, and use the 5-cut method to ensure perpendicularity od cuts. Trust me, you'll be glad you did as you'll use it often. TS sleds can be made for regular 90° crosscuts, for 45° miter cuts, or for any angle. When using one of these simply clamp a stop block to the length of cut you want & saw away!

PS If you need pictures let me know.

[Phil Mueller]

Joe, had no idea that Logan existed.. Thanks for posting.

[Joseph Montroy]

Phil,
After all I have learned from this site, it's nice to finally give some back! Hope it helps, I know it's indispensable for me to make frames!

[Mark W Pugh]

For the stop block, I would use a 90 deg piece and not a 45 deg angle. If your 45 deg stop block is not exactly 45 deg, there can be errors introduced. Also, how do you set your lengths exactly?

[Mike Trent]

First, thanks to ALL who replied. Many suggestions I'd already tried, and many more had never occurred to me! Started to multi-quote this reply, and realized it would be too long of a post. Please know I appreciate all replies.

The problem is a table saw adjustment (could be that I'm an idiot, too!). Am starting a new thread about that.