Source for modern hollow and round molding plane irons?

[Mike Allen1010]

Recently I've been experimenting with learning to restore and use old, wooden hollow and round planes to make moldings. The results of been decent, but I've had to spend a lot more time than I want to fettling the planes/irons the old irons don't seem to stay sharp very long. As a consequence, I'm considering trying to make some side escarpment molding planes spurred on by the "Roubo molding planes – easy to make traditional tools" in the April edition of Popular Woodworking.


I think I can manage the woodworking part; the dealbreaker for me as I have zero interest in buying raw 01 tool steel and then heat treating it myself as described in the article (owoo fire- very scary!).


Does anyone know where I might be able to buy modern, already treated plane irons that might be of use for this project? The article calls for 1/8" thick x 8" long x 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" wide irons, to build # 4 ,6, 8 H&R planes. I'm happy to grind and sharpen the necessary profiles, I just don't want to make the whole iron shebang from scratch.


Any and all advice and suggestions are much appreciated!


I read with great interest LV's recent announcement of adding beading profile irons to their small plow plane and their plans for a combination plane sometime in the future. These are both something I'm definitely interested in but don't know very much about.


Thanks in advance for the help.


Cheers, Mike

[Steve Voigt]

Mike, I don't know of any source for already heat-treated irons. LN sells tapered molding iron blanks, and I highly recommend them, but you have to heat treat them.
The only way you could get around HT, that I'm aware of, is to buy shot old planes that have usable irons, and repurpose those.
My advice though: you are already a proficient toolmaker, so get over your fear of HT. For side escapement planes, all you need is a torch and a bucket of oil. Adding a few firebricks will greatly increase the efficiency of the torch. It's easy, I promise. I don't use a torch--I have a small forge--so I can't advise on specific makes/models, but I'm sure others can.
Do you have the Larry Williams vid on making side escapement planes? If not, there's clip from the vid that shows the basic HT setup, it's posted for free somewhere, youtube probably.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm considering trying to make some side escarpment molding planes spurred on by the "Roubo molding planes – easy to make traditional tools" in the April edition of Popular Woodworking.

I haven't seen that edition on the stands yet. Did the article have a source for materials? That used to be standard practice for build it articles with harder to find hardware.

jtk

[Izzy Camire]

You may want to try Matt Bickford. He makes planes he might sell just the irons.
http://msbickford.com/

[Keith Mathewson]

Matt gets his from Lie Nielsen. When he visited last year he heat treated, then tempered an iron in my back yard and kitchen oven. It was a lot easier than I would have imagined.

[Frederick Skelly]

LN sells tapered molding iron blanks, and I highly recommend them, but you have to heat treat them.

My advice though: you are already a proficient toolmaker, so get over your fear of HT.

+1 on both points. Mike, I'm nowhere near as good at making tools as you are but I made one using an LN iron. I just bought a MAP gas torch as the BORG. It treated just fine. (Might be beginner's luck.) But geez man, it'll be a breeze for you.

Fred

[Robert Hazelwood]

If you really don't want to DIY, there are professional heat treating services that a lot of hobbyist and small-shop knife makers use. You would rough grind and shape your annealed irons, then send then via mail and specify HRC. Peter's Heat Treat and Texas Knifemaker's Supply are two I've heard of, though I' should clarify I've never used one of these services.

[Kees Heiden]

Those molding plane irons were relatively soft on purpose so they are very easy to sharpen with slipstones. They would have been used to plane the very last bit of the curve after the majority of the wood was removed with rabbet planes, gouges and what else was usefull.

This just as background info.

[Tom M King]

All of mine are old, and from the UK. Only one needed anything other than sharpening. That one had a replacement wedge in it. I don't think I've ever had to resharpen while making whatever molding I needed to make with them. The longest piece I can remember needing to make was 11 feet. I just use them to match something old that needs a replacement piece, or maybe for one piece of furniture.

[Patrick Chase]

Matt gets his from Lie Nielsen. When he visited last year he heat treated, then tempered an iron in my back yard and kitchen oven. It was a lot easier than I would have imagined.

Out of curiosity how did he prevent decarburization? (loss of carbon near the surface during heat treatment)

Did he use an anti-scale coat of some sort? If so do you know what it was?

The pros use molten salt baths, vacuum or inert-gas furnaces, etc but clearly if he did it in your backyard he didn't have access to any of that.

[Steve Voigt]

If you really don't want to DIY, there are professional heat treating services that a lot of hobbyist and small-shop knife makers use. You would rough grind and shape your annealed irons, then send then via mail and specify HRC. Peter's Heat Treat and Texas Knifemaker's Supply are two I've heard of, though I' should clarify I've never used one of these services.

Robert, I've used Peters and highly recommend them if you have volume, but if you are just doing a couple irons it doesn't make economic sense. It's something like $50 for one iron. They charge $110 for up to 20 irons, and you pay shipping both ways. Above 20 irons, it gets even cheaper.

[Mike Cherry]

Robert, I've used Peters and highly recommend them if you have volume, but if you are just doing a couple irons it doesn't make economic sense. It's something like $50 for one iron. They charge $110 for up to 20 irons, and you pay shipping both ways. Above 20 irons, it gets even cheaper.
This sounds like a good excuse for a group build! Could do a bulk order and hold a contest here at SMC.

By the way, that article mentions a bit about lumber selection. Chris states that hard maple might be worth considering as material for a plane. Anyone care to comment on that? I know beech can be tough to find.

[Keith Mathewson]

Out of curiosity how did he prevent decarburization? (loss of carbon near the surface during heat treatment)

Did he use an anti-scale coat of some sort? If so do you know what it was?

The pros use molten salt baths, vacuum or inert-gas furnaces, etc but clearly if he did it in your backyard he didn't have access to any of that.


I don't pretend to know anything about the process other than what Matt showed me and what I saw on Larry Williams DVDs. What Matt did was very similar to what Larry does. He used a large torch and moved the iron under the flame determing the outcome by eye then plunged it in peanut oil pilfered from my wife's cabinet. Beyond the peanut oil nothing else was used.

[Kees Heiden]

As far as I know decarburisation is not a huge problem with O1. As long as you don't overheat the steel. Of course, the skin of the steel will loose some, but you grind that anyway.

Now, I have my suspicions about the method Larry Williams shows in his videos. He heats up the steel until small blisters appear. That looks like overheating.

[Jeff Heath]

Without trying to sound harsh at all, what you want to do is sort of backwards to what is the best way to tune (or make) an iron to any moulding plane. It's a much easier task to shape the iron to the existing corrected profile of a plane than the other way around.

Shaping an untreated iron from Lie Nielsen is the easiest way to get a high quality iron that is going to work very well with your plane. Once you've got it "roughed in", heat treating, followed by a final grind of the hardened tool to match your profile will give you the best results. I'm not saying that you can't do it the way you are thinking, but it will be more difficult to yield the results you're looking for. The iron just needs to be fitted to the plane.

Heat treating these small irons is not a big deal. You can easily make your own small forge-like working station with a box of fire brick for woodburning stoves. A decent torch and you're on your way. I use acetylene, because I have a large acety/oxy setup for other work I do, but you can get away with Mapp Gas, or Propane if need be. It just takes a little longer.

With all things, there's a learning curve, but in this regard, it's pretty easy and a short learning curve to getting good results.

I, too, highly recommend Larry's video(s). You will learn a lot and be glad you did.

[Steve Voigt]

Kees,

It's not overheating. If anything, it's the opposite. The visual evidence of carbon pooling that you see in Larry's video happens at a lower temp than the loss of magnetism, which is what most people rely on to determine the correct temp. Larry's point, as I understand it, is that by watching for the carbon pooling instead of using a magnet or looking for color (definitely the worst way), you'll avoid overheating.

FWIW, the video makes it look a whole lot easier than it usually is in practice, though that depends on your method of heat treating. It takes some practice to see the carbon pooling when bits of scale are flaking off and ash is swirling around and you're nervous about the 1400° temp in front of your nose. I think most people will find it much easier to use a magnet, at least at first. And the risk of overheating or grain growth with the magnet method is very low.

I agree that decarb is really not an issue for most people. But for anyone who's concerned, Borax works very well as an anti-scale compound. It needs to be sprinkled on at the right temp, after the steel is no longer blue but before it starts to show any red. And it (the Borax) is tougher to remove than more expensive commercial anti-scale compounds. But it definitely works. I wouldn't bother in most situations, but i might use it for something like a float, where you don't want to have to remove a lot of material post HT.

[Patrick Chase]

I agree that decarb is really not an issue for most people. But for anyone who's concerned, Borax works very well as an anti-scale compound. It needs to be sprinkled on at the right temp, after the steel is no longer blue but before it starts to show any red. And it (the Borax) is tougher to remove than more expensive commercial anti-scale compounds. But it definitely works. I wouldn't bother in most situations, but i might use it for something like a float, where you don't want to have to remove a lot of material post HT.

I didn't know about Borax - thanks!

Out of curiosity how much material do you have to remove post-HT if you don't coat? My dim recollection from metallurgy courses (almost 3 decades ago) is something like 10-20 mils. Is that about right?

EDIT: It just occurred to me (I'm pretty slow in the morning) that Williams is actually *relying* on surface decarb to determine temperature.

EDIT 2: Dug out the text and looked - the 20 mil number is for a steel that requires ~1 hr soak at HT temp. O1 requires a much shorter soak, so I imagine decarb depth would be less, and now understand what you're saying. Thanks!

[Steve Voigt]

I didn't know about Borax - thanks!

Out of curiosity how much material do you have to remove post-HT if you don't coat? My dim recollection from metallurgy courses (almost 3 decades ago) is something like 10-20 mils. Is that about right?

EDIT: It just occurred to me (I'm pretty slow in the morning) that Williams is actually *relying* on surface decarb to determine temperature.

EDIT 2: Dug out the text and looked - the 20 mil number is for a steel that requires ~1 hr soak at HT temp. O1 requires a much shorter soak, so I imagine decarb depth would be less, and now understand what you're saying. Thanks!

Well, you figured it out, but just a little more…for standard industrial practice, .010-.020 is a good range. That's about what LV leaves to grind off, IIRC. But that is probably as much for grinding away the distortion from HT as it is for removing decarb. And, although no one is soaking plane irons for an hour, most places typically soak O1, probably 10-15 minutes for a plane iron, which does cause more decarb than an immediate quench.

On the other hand, if you're just a guy making molding plane irons in the driveway, you can get away with much less, probably more like .003. It's not possible to soak without a decent furnace, so that's why you see Larry quenching immediately in the video. An O1 iron done that way will probably not have as much edge retention, but as Kees mentioned it really doesn't matter for a molding plane.

The biggest issue for anyone heat treating at home is going to be technique. It's just like cutting dovetails; it takes some practice to get good, consistent results (but cutting dovetails is much much harder!)

[Jeff Keith]

For anyone interested in a great forum on all things blade related, I recommend Knife Dogs - http://knifedogs.com/forum.php And here's an excellent primer on heat treating - http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?22568-Your-Heat-Treating-Tool-Box

This is another one of those hobby rabbit holes that can quickly suck you in. The forum owner, Tracy Mickley, is a great guy and from my home town. :cool:

[Patrick Chase]

Well, you figured it out, but just a little more…for standard industrial practice, .010-.020 is a good range. That's about what LV leaves to grind off, IIRC. But that is probably as much for grinding away the distortion from HT as it is for removing decarb. And, although no one is soaking plane irons for an hour, most places typically soak O1, probably 10-15 minutes for a plane iron, which does cause more decarb than an immediate quench.

On the other hand, if you're just a guy making molding plane irons in the driveway, you can get away with much less, probably more like .003. It's not possible to soak without a decent furnace, so that's why you see Larry quenching immediately in the video. An O1 iron done that way will probably not have as much edge retention, but as Kees mentioned it really doesn't matter for a molding plane.

The biggest issue for anyone heat treating at home is going to be technique. It's just like cutting dovetails; it takes some practice to get good, consistent results (but cutting dovetails is much much harder!)

Thanks for the detailed (and patient) explanation. Much appreciated!

So you're saying that a vacuum furnace is the Leigh jig of heat treating? :-)

[Allan Speers]

Out of curiosity how did he prevent decarburization? (loss of carbon near the surface during heat treatment)

Did he use an anti-scale coat of some sort? If so do you know what it was?

The pros use molten salt baths, vacuum or inert-gas furnaces, etc but clearly if he did it in your backyard he didn't have access to any of that.


Patrick, this is the second time you've posted about decarbonization. I've read about it, but all reports are that it's a very minor problem when working a small piece of 01. There are lots of "how to" guides on HT and annealing, and none that I have read say this is anything to be concerned with, as long as you follow all the correct steps. (Don't overheat, etc.)

If you know otherwise, I'd definitely like to know the details.

[Patrick Chase]

For anyone interested in a great forum on all things blade related, I recommend Knife Dogs - http://knifedogs.com/forum.php And here's an excellent primer on heat treating - http://knifedogs.com/showthread.php?22568-Your-Heat-Treating-Tool-Box

This is another one of those hobby rabbit holes that can quickly suck you in. The forum owner, Tracy Mickley, is a great guy and from my home town. :cool:

Ron Hock's sharpening book also has a pretty decent short treatment of the basics, though not at the level of detail that I was asking Steve for or that I had to hit the texts to find.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, this is the second time you've posted about decarbonization. I've read about it, but all reports are that it's a very minor problem when working a small piece of 01. There are lots of "how to" guides on HT an annealing, and none that I have read say this is anything to be concerned with, as long as you follow all the correct steps. (Don't overheat, etc.)

If you know otherwise, I'd definitely like to know the details.

I think the key word here is "ask", as in I asked because I didn't know.

I knew that decarb and scaling are big enough concerns that professionals in industry (and at larger tool manufacturers like LV and Hock) typically use vacuum/inert-gas furnaces, salt baths, or anti-scale coatings. I asked the question because I wanted to know how people making plane irons in their driveways/yards deal with the issue, though I incorrectly assumed that the answer involved some sort of coating (the "driveway/yard" bit rules out the other "pro" solutions). The answer (per Steve) turns out to be that they compromise a bit on dwell time at critical temp to reduce depth of decarb (thereby leaving some hardness on the table as Steve pointed out), and then grind away the fairly shallow decarb that remains.

EDIT: Steve, the more I think about it the more I recognize that that your answer was both simply/clearly worded and very information-dense. Thanks again!

EDIT 2: Decarb is definitely not something that's caused by or specific to "overheat" or any other process flaw. In order to have hardening you must have carbon mobility, and that mobility enables decarb. IMO the big takeaway from Steve's post is that for stuff like molding plane irons it makes sense to bias the process in one direction (potentially incomplete hardening due to short dwell at critical temp, but shallow decarb) rather than the other (complete hardening by staying at critical temp for longer, but deeper decarb).

[Kees Heiden]

When the temp is higher, everything happens a lot quicker, decarb included. That's why I don't really understand what happens during forging. Long time at very high temperature. Sounds as if you will end up with construction steel. But somehow that doesn't happen. The scaling effect plays a role probably. Scale is iron oxide. It acts a bit like a buffer to the atmosphere. And if iron disapears just as quickly as the carbon, you might end up with tool steel again.

[Patrick Chase]

When the temp is higher, everything happens a lot quicker, decarb included. That's why I don't really understand what happens during forging. Long time at very high temperature. Sounds as if you will end up with construction steel. But somehow that doesn't happen. The scaling effect plays a role probably. Scale is iron oxide. It acts a bit like a buffer to the atmosphere. And if iron disapears just as quickly as the carbon, you might end up with tool steel again.

As Steve confirmed, the depth of significant decarburization is on the order of half a millimeter even for fairly long dwell times. IIRC (and as you suggest) that happens because the decarbed material acts as a passivation layer. For a lot of applications having to remove that much material after forging and presumably annealing but before heat treatment isn't an issue. Removing it *after* HT is a pain though.

[Kees Heiden]

When you look at the Seaton chest chisels, they are incredibly thin down to 2mm at the working end. The cast steel ones are not laminated because they still had trouble welding cast steel back then, so they are solid cast steel. I don't know if they ground half a mm from the face, that would have taken them a very long time, but they did grind and polish them.

BTW, 0.5 mm of scale on an object under forging is pretty normal. So that would explain something. The decarbed layer is mostly lost as scale. The rest is technique, moving quickly and precisely.

[Mike Allen1010]

I haven't seen that edition on the stands yet. Did the article have a source for materials? That used to be standard practice for build it articles with harder to find hardware.

jtk

Hi Jim, the article says you can buy 01 tool steel in short lengths at McMaster Carr and Online metals.

Thanks all for the advice and suggestions – much appreciated! I sincerely appreciate all the expert insight about: decarb, scaling, carbon pooling, MAPP torches, vacuum/inert-gas furnaces, salt baths, or anti-scale coatings.This gives me exactly the same feeling I had in freshman organic chemistry "oh crap, everyone here is waaaaay smarter than me and I have no business getting within 10 feet of this stuff".

That said, I have complete faith in Steve and my fellow Neaanders who suggest I bite the bullet, quit being a sissy and buy the LN plane irons, MAPP torch, fire bricks etc. and get on with the grinding, heat treating etc. Even though this will be my first metallurgy experience and I'm certainly in way over my head, I'm going to give it a shot. What can go wrong? Err.... there in lies the problem, seems like a lot could go wrong:eek:! I may not end up with usable plane irons, but at least if I don't burn the house down I can say I gave it a shot.

Thanks for the encouragement to try something new. I will let you know how I make out. Maybe after giving this a try, I won't feel like trying to tune up old, vintage planes is so bad. Wish me luck!

All the best, Mike

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Jim, the article says you can buy 01 tool steel in short lengths at McMaster Carr and Online metals.

Thanks all for the advice and suggestions – much appreciated! I sincerely appreciate all the expert insight about: decarb, scaling, carbon pooling, MAPP torches, vacuum/inert-gas furnaces, salt baths, or anti-scale coatings.This gives me exactly the same feeling I had in freshman organic chemistry "oh crap, everyone here is waaaaay smarter than me and I have no business getting within 10 feet of this stuff".

That said, I have complete faith in Steve and my fellow Neaanders who suggest I bite the bullet, quit being a sissy and buy the LN plane irons, MAPP torch, fire bricks etc. and get on with the grinding, heat treating etc. Even though this will be my first metallurgy experience and I'm certainly in way over my head, I'm going to give it a shot. What can go wrong? Err.... there in lies the problem, seems like a lot could go wrong:eek:! I may not end up with usable plane irons, but at least if I don't burn the house down I can say I gave it a shot.

Thanks for the encouragement to try something new. I will let you know how I make out. Maybe after giving this a try, I won't feel like trying to tune up old, vintage planes is so bad. Wish me luck!

All the best, Mike




Believe it or not you can get annealed O1 from Amazon. I ordered this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050QZWAW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage) a while back and the stock I received was Starrett p/n 56976 (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-ground-stock/flat-stock/495-oil-hardening) (precision-ground O1), which was a pleasant surprise (that bar usually goes for $40+).

[Mike Allen1010]

Believe it or not you can get annealed O1 from Amazon. I ordered this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0050QZWAW?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage) a while back and the stock I received was Starrett p/n 56976 (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-ground-stock/flat-stock/495-oil-hardening) (precision-ground O1), which was a pleasant surprise (that bar usually goes for $40+).

Thanks Patrick for the information. For some perspective on my level of ignorance I have no idea what this "annealed" is of which you speak (seriously, no idea). I just punched in my order for the LN moulding plane irons - about $100 bucks for 6 irons - to make a pair of #4, 6 and 8 H&R's.I understand I'll have to do some kind of voodoo "heat treating" before the irons are usable.

I just finished making the wooden plane bodies using the closest pieces I could find to quarter sawn in whatever I had on hand [Cherry, Maple and Paduck (sic)]. Given my level of ignorance and anxiety about this project, I am clearly hearing my Dad's voice in my head; "Buy the very best tools you can afford and you'll never be disappointed. Go for the less expensive/lower quality alternative and you'll regret it. The most expensive tool is the one you have to replace because you screwed up the first time around". My Dad was a tough SOB (he flew > 50 missions over Hanoi in a F-105 In the late 1960s and early 70s), but dammit, the older I get, the more I realize he didn't say sh** if he didn't know exactly what he was talking about.

Between the need to "heat treat" the plane irons and making plane bodies that fit them exactly and hold the irons in the tight tolerances needed to build effective molding planes, I'm thinking I should have just written the check to Matt Bickford and gotten on the waiting list.I enjoy woodworking – toolmaking not so much. I kind of think I screwed up here. I'm committed now. We'll see how it goes.

Mike

[Steve Voigt]

Mike, relax, you will be fine. If you haven't looked at this already, it will tell you most of what you need to know:
https://hocktools.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/diy-heat-treatment-of-tool-steel/

[Patrick Chase]

Mike, relax, you will be fine. If you haven't looked at this already, it will tell you most of what you need to know:
https://hocktools.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/diy-heat-treatment-of-tool-steel/

That's exactly what I was referring to in #22 when I suggested Hock's sharpening book, though I didn't realize that Ron had posted that excerpt on his blog. IMO he does a very good job of balancing technical accuracy and readability.

EDIT: Reinforcing a point that both Kees and Steve made previously, molding planes are pretty forgiving. If you don't get optimal results that won't be the end of the world, and might not even be noticeable. You'll do fine. Please ignore my posts about decarb - I was picking Steve's brain about a fairly technical issue that's unlikely to be a huge problem for you.

One think you might want to consider is to procure an inexpensive O1 bar of about the right thickness, cut it into pieces and grind a bevel onto each, and practice heat-treating those before you try your hand with one of those L-N irons. Something like this (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FMYFU4/ref=biss_dp_t_asn) should do the trick.

[Kees Heiden]

Annealed steel is steel when it is as soft as possible. That is how you buy it. They heat it up above critical temp ( cherry red, non magnetic). Then they let it cool as slowly as possible. So that is the oposite of hardening where you cool as quick as possible with a quench.

[Mike Allen1010]

I finally got around to making the plane bodies/wedges and grinding the 01 blade blanks (which I got from Lie Nielsen) for 3 pair of hollows and rounds - #4,6,8.

Since this is my first attempt, I used scraps of wood I had in the shop. I tried to select pieces that were quarter sawn, but didn't really have too many choices that were the appropriate thickness. I ended up with mostly Cherry and one each of Paduk and walnut. I know those aren't ideal plane woods ( I would've preferred Maple or beech), but this is really just a trial to see if I can make H&R's at all and ultimately to see if they work any better than the old mixed bag of random H&R's I have on hand. I frankly struggle getting the old plane irons sharp and getting them to hold an edge for any worthwhile length of time.

I followed the instructions in a recent Popular Woodworking article. The plans called for a 55 degree bed angle but I screwed up with the protractor in building the jig used to mark out the angles, so these ended up at 60°. I really hope that's not a dealbreaker :confused:?


I decided against trying to heat treat the blades myself because it just seemed too scary and the probability of screw up in getting the right temperature etc. too high for a rookie like me. Based on a recommendation from Steve V. above, I decided to send the blades to "Pete's heat treating" in PA. I think I might have screwed up by grinding the bevel on the irons too thin – I just read the instructions from Pete's and they said to leave a minimum thickness of .030 inches to prevent warping. I hope they can still harden them and I'll just have to re-grind the bevels?

They charge a flat rate of $114 for between 4 and 20 blades. Since I only have 6, let me know if anyone else has some blades they would like to include up to the 20 blades maximum? Send me a PM and we can combine into a single shipment. I would like to get these done as soon as possible so don't want to wait too long; however thought I would make the offer for any of my fellow Creekers who might be interested.

After extensive coaching by a bunch of guys here in the cave (thanks Brian, Derek, Ken and everyone else who generously offered advice!), I finally succeeded in uploading larger pictures. For a technically challenged guy like me this is roughly the equivalent splitting the atom – I'm very proud of myself! Just realized this is probably a mixed blessing as it makes my mistake that much easier to see!

All the best, Mike



http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/mikeallen1010/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0112_zpsvhfkft74.jpg (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/mikeallen1010/media/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0112_zpsvhfkft74.jpg.html)



http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/mikeallen1010/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0111_zpshdcnkrzi.jpg (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/mikeallen1010/media/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0111_zpshdcnkrzi.jpg.html)

http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/mikeallen1010/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0110_zpsqtxva6xt.jpg (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/mikeallen1010/media/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0110_zpsqtxva6xt.jpg.html)


http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/mikeallen1010/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0109_zpsp3q2yzw6.jpg (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/mikeallen1010/media/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0109_zpsp3q2yzw6.jpg.html)



http://i1078.photobucket.com/albums/w498/mikeallen1010/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0108_zpsmjnvpefd.jpg (http://s1078.photobucket.com/user/mikeallen1010/media/Moulding%20planes/DSC_0108_zpsmjnvpefd.jpg.html)

[Jim Koepke]

I followed the instructions in a recent Popular Woodworking article.

I almost purchased that issue until I saw they were open sided.


I just read the instructions from Pete's and they said to leave a minimum thickness of .030 inches to prevent warping. I hope they can still harden them and I'll just have to re-grind the bevels?

Maybe you could make a bunch of shavings and flatten the edge on those blades.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

Looking good Mike! This is one of those projects that I have on the back burner. I do have a decent chunk of hard maple that might be a decent candidate for a pair of H&R's or two.

[Frederick Skelly]

Very nice Mike! Have you stuck a trial molding yet?

[Alan Schwabacher]

If your older molding planes don't hold an edge well, why not include those blades in with your heat treating shipment?

[Mike Allen1010]

Very nice Mike! Have you stuck a trial molding yet?

Fred and Alan these are both excellent questions that illustrate the depth of my ignorance with all things metal working related.

Fred, I didn't attempt to make a trial pass/cut because I assumed un-heat treated/tempered blades wouldn't work very well. Have absolutely no idea if that's correct or not.

Alan Schwabacher (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?5004-Alan-Schwabacher) If your older molding planes don't hold an edge well, why not include those blades in with your heat treating shipment?

Alan, your question also makes perfect sense to me. However, I regard all things tool steel related to have a significant element of vodoo. Unlike other aspects of modern life that to me are empirically quantifiable; woodworking tool steel seems to reside in the netherworld of "some edge tools take/hold a fantastic edge and others don't". I haven't the foggiest reason why that is, nor frankly any interest in understanding why. I just want to identify the "best" steel for the attributes I value most, and gladly buy it. Sadly, I'm unable to understand that calculus on my own and therefore and grateful to rely on the expertise/advice of my betters. Thank goodness we have the benefit of Derek's highly informed opinion based on his rational scientific method, George's historical/Technically informed experience/insight. My only wish is that some day David Weaver will return to the fold. I'm personally the farthest thing from an expert, but I have 100% faith in his evaluation and recommendations.

My H%R plane experiment is highly likely to become a smoking hole in the ground. I promise to share my results, as inglorious as they are likely to be.

All the best, Mike









http://www.sawmillcreek.org/clear.gifReply (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2561474&noquote=1) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/clear.gifReply With Quote (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2561474) http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/multiquote_40b.png (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2561474)Blog this Post (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/blog_post.php?do=newblog&p=2561474) (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/report.php?p=2561474)

[Steve Voigt]

I decided against trying to heat treat the blades myself because it just seemed too scary and the probability of screw up in getting the right temperature etc. too high for a rookie like me. Based on a recommendation from Steve V. above, I decided to send the blades to "Pete's heat treating" in PA. I think I might have screwed up by grinding the bevel on the irons too thin – I just read the instructions from Pete's and they said to leave a minimum thickness of .030 inches to prevent warping. I hope they can still harden them and I'll just have to re-grind the bevels?

They charge a flat rate of $114 for between 4 and 20 blades. Since I only have 6, let me know if anyone else has some blades they would like to include up to the 20 blades maximum? Send me a PM and we can combine into a single shipment. I would like to get these done as soon as possible so don't want to wait too long; however thought I would make the offer for any of my fellow Creekers who might be interested.


Mike,

The planes look good. A couple thoughts on the irons.

When I said I liked Peters, I was responding to another post, and I said that I liked them for volume orders, but not for just a few blades. In this particular case, I think there are two reasons that sending out the blades would be sub-optimal.

First, for $114 you can buy yourself a nice torch and everything else you need to heat treat for the rest of your life.

Second and more important: When most people heat treat those type of irons (tapered with long skinny tangs), they just heat treat the bottom couple inches, so most of the tang remains soft. This is good, because if you try heat treating the whole thing, it's going to warp and twist due to its skinny irregular shape and tapered thickness. That is going to make bedding the iron difficult. And that's exactly what will happen if you send the irons out--they will heat treat the whole thing in an oven, and it will warp and twist. Those guys do a nice job of straightening the irons, but it will be very hard to get them straight enough, because of the shape, IMO.

If you are concerned about doing the HT yourself because of safety and liability issues, I totally get that. I think you are more than capable of learning to heat treat, but no one should make light of the potential hazards involved. If that's the case, I recommend you find someone local who can heat treat them with a torch and a bucket. If you can't find someone to do it for free, I would try a local machine shop. In fact, I used to work at the UCSD machine shop, which is in your general area. I could email you their contact info if you need it.

Regardless of how you heat treat them, you definitely don't want them sharp--the edge will decarb badly and may overheat, and warping will be more of a problem. Go back to the grinder (or files) and just put a small flat on the cutting edge.

Concerning your bed angle of 60°: they will work, and they will certainly stop tearout dead in almost anything! You may however find them hard to push; you will probably not be able to take very heavy cuts, and they may be more likely to chatter if everything is not "just so." I would try them and see how you like them. There are certainly plenty of examples of commercially made moulding planes at half pitch (60°).

[Dave Anderson NH]

Mike, I agree with what Steve says.

I would also strongly encourage you to learn to do your own heat treating. Based on the kind of furniture projects you have shown on this forum I have no doubts about your ability to learn a relatively simple process like HT. Acquiring proficiency in HT is significantly simpler than learning the to produce the level of furniture quality you have shown.

As for learning to judge TH-ing color, don't bother except as a double check/sanity check. When tool steels like O-1 and W-1 reach their critical temperature they no longer will attract a magnet. This means that with a rare earth magnet on the end of a screwdriver you can verify you have reached critical temperature. Similarly, a simple bimetal thermometer in your kitchen oven to verify the oven's set temperature and the use of tempering charts available at most sellers of tool steel and you can temper in the kitchen. An important warning here though, if you are using O-1, quench in peanut oil to prevent the smell and marital discord that the use of old motor oil would cause. Believe me when I say that I learned that one the hard way and learned my wife's vocabulary was broader than initially supposed.

There are plenty of threads here on the Neander forum that give very complete process instruction. Go for it, you will find it opens your horizons significantly.

[Tom M King]

Heat treating the irons is a lot easier than what you've done so far.

[James Waldron]

That's exactly what I was referring to in #22 when I suggested Hock's sharpening book, though I didn't realize that Ron had posted that excerpt on his blog. IMO he does a very good job of balancing technical accuracy and readability.

EDIT: Reinforcing a point that both Kees and Steve made previously, molding planes are pretty forgiving. If you don't get optimal results that won't be the end of the world, and might not even be noticeable. You'll do fine. Please ignore my posts about decarb - I was picking Steve's brain about a fairly technical issue that's unlikely to be a huge problem for you.

One think you might want to consider is to procure an inexpensive O1 bar of about the right thickness, cut it into pieces and grind a bevel onto each, and practice heat-treating those before you try your hand with one of those L-N irons. Something like this (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000FMYFU4/ref=biss_dp_t_asn) should do the trick.

Or you could try https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=13830&step=4&showunits=inches&id=892&top_cat=1354 for the same size O-1 at a little more than half the price. Online Metals is a a division of ThyssenKrupp Materials North America, so not some fly-by-night source. Lots of other choices there, too, so you may want to look around a bit once you get there. I've found them a very good outfit to deal with.

[James Waldron]

Good Lord! $114? If you send them to me, I'll do six blades for free. You pay shipping both ways. That's to harden and temper. O1 can temper in my oven to Rockwell C 62 and down; for these blades I'd suggest you might find RC 58 about right from an ease of sharpening standpoint, although O1 isn't that difficult to sharpen at any hardness.

If you're interested, PM me.

Like most here, I think you should cinch up your girdle and do it yourself. It's really simple and, with a tiny bit of forethought, it's quite safe. But since you seem to wish to consider science a branch of voodoo, so be it. Even from a voodoo perspective, it's as simple as magic gets:

Heat the blade up to the magic temperature. To tell if it's reached the magic temperature, test with a magnet for the magic sign. If the magnet sticks to the steel, it isn't hot enough. If it doesn't stick, you've reached the proper temperature. (You were holding the blade with your vice grips, right? Not with your bare hands?)
Lower the blade smartly into a can of peanut oil you've thoughtfully placed near where you're heating the blade. Best to lower it straight down, then stir it around after the initial "sizzle" has died down. After it's been in the oil for say three or four minutes, take it out and wipe most of the oil off. Trust me, the oil will not be hot enough to fry your pommes frits. The pommes probably wouldn't taste as good as usual in any case.
Send your wife out of the house on an errand of some sort. Be creative. Heat the kitchen oven to 380 degrees F (RC62) to 450 degrees F (RC58), depending on how hard you want your temper to be. When it reaches temperature, put your blade into the oven and hold (for 1/8" thickness) for a minimum of 30 and a maximum of 60 minutes. (I wrap my pieces in aluminum foil with a bit of charcoal to prevent further decarborizing during the heat, but I've never quite believed that it did any substantial good at these lower temperatures. But then again, I'm usually shooting for RC62, with the oven at 380 degrees (F)
Remove from the oven, cool to handling temperature, grind to finished shape and sharpen and hone. Cut wood.

Edit: Jeez! I almost forgot the most important part: when your wife gets back and asks what you've been doing with her oven and why the hell you left it on, you have to recite the following magic incantation:
"It wasn't me. I wasn't there. I didn't do it. I didn't mean to. I couldn't help it. I'll never do it again. I'm sorry. I love you. You're much prettier than your sister."

[Steve Voigt]

Like most here, I think you should cinch up your girdle and do it yourself. It's really simple and, with a tiny bit of forethought, it's quite safe. But since you seem to wish to consider science a branch of voodoo, so be it. Even from a voodoo perspective, it's as simple as magic gets:

Heat the blade up to the magic temperature. To tell if it's reached the magic temperature, test with a magnet for the magic sign. If the magnet sticks to the steel, it isn't hot enough. If it doesn't stick, you've reached the proper temperature. (You were holding the blade with your vice grips, right? Not with your bare hands?)



In general I like this description a lot--nice and simple. I'd like to add a couple comments on the specific points.



Lower the blade smartly into a can of peanut oil you've thoughtfully placed near where you're heating the blade. Best to lower it straight down, then stir it around after the initial "sizzle" has died down. After it's been in the oil for say three or four minutes, take it out and wipe most of the oil off. Trust me, the oil will not be hot enough to fry your pommes frits. The pommes probably wouldn't taste as good as usual in any case.


Stirring the part around is generally frowned upon, because it can cause warping. Best to go straight up and down, fairly slowly.
After about 15 seconds, maybe 30 at most for a large bench plane iron, you're done. There is no point in leaving it in for 3 or 4 minutes. The purpose of heat treating is to take the steel from around 1500° to around 800° in the required time interval. For O1, that time interval is about 5 seconds; for W1 it's less than a second. At that cooling rate, the part is surely cool enough to handle in less than 30 seconds.


Heat the kitchen oven to 380 degrees F (RC62) to 450 degrees F (RC58), depending on how hard you want your temper to be. When it reaches temperature, put your blade into the oven and hold (for 1/8" thickness) for a minimum of 30 and a maximum of 60 minutes. (I wrap my pieces in aluminum foil with a bit of charcoal to prevent further decarborizing during the heat, but I've never quite believed that it did any substantial good at these lower temperatures. But then again, I'm usually shooting for RC62, with the oven at 380 degrees (F)

Decarb can only happen at or near the critical temperature, around 1400°. There is no point in wrapping in foil when you are tempering.
If you stick small molding plane irons in an oven by themselves, they will overheat. Even if the thermometer reads accurately, there will be temperature spikes when the heating element or flame comes on. To prevent this, put something on the bottom rack to absorb heat and act as a shield, and put the blades on the top rack. A heavy cast iron pan, is good; even better is to fill it with something like a roast. I'm totally serious. The planemaker Bill Carter said "put it in the oven with the lamb roast" and I thought he was just being cute, but he wasn't. The roast will help a lot to smooth out the temperature fluctuations.
Alternatively, as George has said here many times, an accurate toaster oven is better than a household oven.

[Mike Allen1010]

Steve and Dave,

As usual you recommendations are persuasive. I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me about all the inherent challenges in heat treating molding plane irons. Per your suggestion, I have blunted the edges of the plane irons.

As much as it pains me to say it, I guess inevitably the smartest thing is for me to try and heat treat these myself. I probably should first give my blood type and address to the local fire department. Not at all looking forward to super hot metal things with small tolerances that affect the thing I care the most about – a sharp cutting-edge.

BTW, can I buy the MAAP torch and fireplace blocks at the local BORG, or do I need some kind of specialty retailer?

Thanks in advance for all the help!

Best, Mike

[Patrick Chase]

In fact, I used to work at the UCSD machine shop, which is in your general area. I could email you their contact info if you need it.

When were you there?

I was an AMES undergrad from 89-93. I worked for and later with Dave Tribolet for a good chunk of my HP career (he recruited me straight out of 156A/B)

[Steve Voigt]

When were you there?

I was an AMES undergrad from 89-93. I worked for and later with Dave Tribolet for a good chunk of my HP career (he recruited me straight out of 156A/B)

After you, from about 94-2000. I was a grad student in the music department, and I kept afloat by working part time (and full time in the summers) in the machine shop. I stayed at the shop for a couple years after I finished my coursework, because WTF else are you going to do with a PhD in composition? :p

Dave's name sounds very familiar. I'm wondering if he worked with a guy named John; we built these cannons for them with 4" barrels to shoot stuff through concrete. Almost as cool as the 13-ton "shaker tables" we built that were used to simulate earthquakes…that place was intense. Anyway, good to know you were there!

[Patrick Chase]

After you, from about 94-2000. I was a grad student in the music department, and I kept afloat by working part time (and full time in the summers) in the machine shop. I stayed at the shop for a couple years after I finished my coursework, because WTF else are you going to do with a PhD in composition? :p


Dave's name sounds very familiar. I'm wondering if he worked with a guy named John; we built these cannons for them with 4" barrels to shoot stuff through concrete.


Dave is an industry adjunct and taught AMES-156A/B (now MAE-156A/B), the upper-division design course for mechanical engineers. AMES-156B in particular involved design projects, and a lot of those went through the machine shop. IIRC in 1994 they built an electric cart, which they may have donated back to the shop.

EDIT: Was Steven Shick (sp?) still in the music department when you went there? I'd been a cellist for a long time before college, but took his "intro to rock" as an easy way to kill a humanities reqt. I recall being pleasantly surprised at how he covered it.


Almost as cool as the 13-ton "shaker tables" we built that were used to simulate earthquakes…that place was intense. Anyway, good to know you were there!

Ah yes, the Casa de Hegemier (Powell Structural Systems Lab).

[Patrick Chase]

Or you could try https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=13830&step=4&showunits=inches&id=892&top_cat=1354 for the same size O-1 at a little more than half the price. Online Metals is a a division of ThyssenKrupp Materials North America, so not some fly-by-night source. Lots of other choices there, too, so you may want to look around a bit once you get there. I've found them a very good outfit to deal with.

Yep, I've done business with Online Metals and they're good.

The price difference is probably because the Starrett one that I linked is precision ground (Amazon doesn't say Starrett, but that's what it is). You don't need that in this case, so the Onlline Metals one is clearly a better bet. Thanks for the correction.

[Patrick Chase]

Good Lord! $114? If you send them to me, I'll do six blades for free. You pay shipping both ways. That's to harden and temper. O1 can temper in my oven to Rockwell C 62 and down; for these blades I'd suggest you might find RC 58 about right from an ease of sharpening standpoint, although O1 isn't that difficult to sharpen at any hardness.


Shouldn't that be Rc62 and *up*? Or are you saying that your oven doesn't go below 450F? :-)

To temper full-hard O1 down to Rc58 you'd need to heat it to 580F, give or take depending on whose chart you're using.

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks Steve and Dave for the advice. I guess I just need to bite the bullet and "take the plunge" of heat treating. I'm hoping I can get a map torch and some fireplace bricks at the local BORG. If not, I'll be back looking for sources.

Thanks, Mike

[James Waldron]

[snip]

Stirring the part around is generally frowned upon, because it can cause warping. Best to go straight up and down, fairly slowly.

I agree, but since the OP is worried about working at high temp, I wanted to encourage him to go above and beyond. Hence the bit about after the sizzle stop before stirring, which should be down to or at least very near the required 800 degrees. At that point, stirring can't do harm (in my experience, YMMV).

After about 15 seconds, maybe 30 at most for a large bench plane iron, you're done. There is no point in leaving it in for 3 or 4 minutes.

Again I agree but there is a point to 3 or 4 minutes for the OP: it will get the temp down to the point where he's very unlikely to burn himself. Since that is his concern, I thought it might be good to let him get a bit more sophisticated after he's attained a bit of self-confidence in the process. And again, I don't see a potential for harm.

The purpose of heat treating is to take the steel from around 1500° to around 800° in the required time interval. For O1, that time interval is about 5 seconds; for W1 it's less than a second. At that cooling rate, the part is surely cool enough to handle in less than 30 seconds.

The cooling rate slows as the termperature drops. AT 30 seconds, the OP may find the piece hot enough to be worrisome. 3-4 minutes is enough overkill - with no real harm done - to make sure he's comfortable.

Decarb can only happen at or near the critical temperature, around 1400°. There is no point in wrapping in foil when you are tempering.
If you stick small molding plane irons in an oven by themselves, they will overheat. Even if the thermometer reads accurately, there will be temperature spikes when the heating element or flame comes on. To prevent this, put something on the bottom rack to absorb heat and act as a shield, and put the blades on the top rack. A heavy cast iron pan, is good; even better is to fill it with something like a roast. I'm totally serious. The planemaker Bill Carter said "put it in the oven with the lamb roast" and I thought he was just being cute, but he wasn't. The roast will help a lot to smooth out the temperature fluctuations.
Alternatively, as George has said here many times, an accurate toaster oven is better than a household oven.

Maybe my mentor was using the charcoal as a heat sink. I don't know and he never said. But I've always been a bit suspicious of that arrangement.

But you're quite right, across the board, as usual. Thanks for the review of my post.

Fair winds and following seas,

Jim