White Oak vs Elm

[John Loftis]

Hi folks, a customer shipped me a small board that is supposedly from a very famous elm tree. I've never worked with elm before. To me, this board looks just like white oak, and when I began milling it, I got the characteristic 'bourbon barrel smell' of white oak. So... I'm a little suspicious.

Anybody milled a lot of elm? Does it smell like white oak? Is there an easy way to verify this is actually elm?

Thanks in advance!
John

[Prashun Patel]

Elm to me smells like feet. Oak smells like vinegar or ketchup or, when it dries, like bourbon and vanilla and moss.

Most Elm I have does not have any ray flecking on the qs. Both have prominent grain, but elm is tighter and more closed.

[Jamie Buxton]

If you look at the end grain of white oak, the medullary rays are pretty obvious. In elm, they're almost not there.

[Dick Strauss]

I can't speak to smell off hand. However, elm also has an interlocking chevron pattern across the face and end grain that should make it easy to distinguish from white oak.

[John Loftis]

I can't speak to smell off hand. However, elm also has an interlocking chevron pattern across the face and end grain that should make it easy to distinguish from white oak.

A few photos...333968333970333969

[ALAN HOLLAR]

That looks like every piece of flatsawn white oak I have ever held in my hand.

[Jason Mikits]

Absolutely, positively oak and not elm of any kind!!

[John K Jordan]

Elm has distinctive wavy bands of small latewood pores in cross section. Slice a small section with a razor blade and look at with a low power lens (10x is perfect)

ELM:
333984

The rays on oak are wide and distinctive on cross section, very long and distinctive on longitudinal radial and tangential sections. The large pores in white oak are filled with easily seen tyloses, making them look kind of sparkly. You can find end grain photos on the Wood Database.

JKJ

[John Loftis]

Elm has distinctive wavy bands of small latewood pores in cross section. Slice a small section with a razor blade and look at with a low power lens (10x is perfect)

ELM:
333984

The rays on oak are wide and distinctive on cross section, very long and distinctive on longitudinal radial and tangential sections. The large pores in white oak are filled with easily seen tyloses, making them look kind of sparkly. You can find end grain photos on the Wood Database.

JKJ

John, did you see the pictures of the end grain I attached previously? What do you think?

[Cody Colston]

The picture you posted is of flat-sawn oak...some species of white oak. If it came from North Texas, it's probably Post Oak. Whomever told you it was elm was mistaken.

[Prashun Patel]

Sure it's not red oak?
I thought the pin holes in the end grain are a clue that it's red.

[John Loftis]

It came from Washington D.C. This will be a delicate conversation...

[John K Jordan]

I think it's not elm. Besides, most elm stinks when worked.

Yes, I saw your cross sections. Perhaps it is Chestnut Oak, White Oak, Black Oak or some other oak:

333985 333986 333987

For better results, slice some end grain with a razor blade. I buy single-edged razor blades for this. If the wood is dry and very hard you can soak or boil it in water to make it softer.

One clue might be where the tree was. Perhaps the newspaper or courthouse in the area has information on the history of the tree which might have information. Of course, the trail from the actual tree to your hands could be convoluted and confused. Someone could have picked up the wrong board(s) at some point, took advantage of some unsuspecting person to make some money, or simply made a mistake.

You can send a tiny sample to the government (Forest Products Laboratory) and they will do a free ID if you are a US citizen. However, if it is one of the oaks they will answer "oak", not the exact species. You can distinguish between the red and white oaks with a sodium nitrate solution.

JKJ

[peter gagliardi]

That is White Oak.

[John K Jordan]

That is White Oak.

There are things to look for and a simple, definitive chemical test:
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/distinguishing-red-oak-from-white-oak/

JKJ

[Jim Becker]

My one experience with elm left me with the impression of, um...eau de cat box... :)

[John Blazy]

I would suspect that elm is also going to be full of internal tension due to the locked grain structure, therefore showing cracks and really hard to rip on the Tsaw. Ever try to split elm? If your board is pretty stable, and according to the pics you posted, it seems like white oak to me. white oak's pores are full of tyloses, which block the pores, as opposed to red oak which is open pored. That's why you never build a boat from red oak, just white oak. Although, never build a boat from either, its just a point made that red oak will allow water to flow through the wood, while white oak will not.

[John Vernier]

My experience was with very well aged reclaimed elm, and the smell was very olde barnyard. Sounds like everyone agrees that the smell is nothing much like oak. I agree that to appearances you have a white oak there.

[Scott T Smith]

Sure it's not red oak?
I thought the pin holes in the end grain are a clue that it's red.

Three species of white oak are open pored; Chestnut white oak being the most common.

[John K Jordan]

I would suspect that elm is also going to be full of internal tension due to the locked grain structure, therefore showing cracks and really hard to rip on the Tsaw.

I have sawed and processed and turned a lot of elm but I haven't noticed any unusual internal tension, other than normal reaction wood in limbs, etc. (It can deform significantly in the transverse cross section due to the high T/R ratio.) To me Elm seems pretty stable when drying compared to some I process such as persimmon and dogwood. Perhaps it is because of the interlocked grain, but it seems to me elm is slower to develop end checks and large splits than some other species.

BTW, concerning odor, the Wood Database include this:
"Odor: (http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/wood-odor/) Elm usually has a strong, unpleasant smell when green; though once dried has very little odor."

JKJ

[scott spencer]

Your pics sure look like white oak to me. I like both woods, but elm is very different....it can have spectacular grain patterns, and is bit more difficult to work with. It's more prone to movement if not well dried and acclimated, and tends to leave a lot of stiff very stalky fuzz at the end of crosscuts even using sharp cutters. Don't try to brush that fuzz off with your bare hands...it's like a serrated knife. I agree with the stinky feet analogy. White oak has a rather pleasant smell IMO.

Elm grain:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/stuff/elm1.jpg