Need Help Selecting Jointer

[Doug Evans]

Hi Folks:

As a maker of dovetailed hand planes I rarely find my way out of the Neanderthal (Hand Tools) forums. In the course of our business though, we are looking to purchase a dedicated Jointer. I must admit, I am not enough of a purist that I want to use a hand plane on cocobolo for our production needs.

We currently have a combination machine (10 ¼” Techna Jointer/Planer, 2 HP). It basically allows us to dress large pieces of cocobolo, typically 6”X3”X42”. I could re-build this machine but, I am more inclined to move to a dedicated Jointer. Any suggestions?

Sincerely,

Doug
doug@shepherdtool.com
www.shepherdtool.com

[Paul Dwight]

For production work in exotic woods I would be thinking about a jointer that has a helical cutterhead equipped with carbide cutters. Several manufacturers offer this option, including Sunhill, Bridgewood/Wilke and Grizzly. Powermatic's new 8" jointer may have a helical cutterhead option -- not sure about that one.

All the manufacturers mentioned above seem to have pretty good reputations among hobbyists. I honestly don't know how they're regarded by pros. Maybe some of our resident professionals will chime in. -- Paul

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Maybe an nice combo of old and new would be to get an old BIG iron jointer and lovingly bring it back to a useful tool?

I'm partial to BIG IRON, so I'm biased:D

Otherwise, there sure are a lot of choices you have there in the US.

Enjoy!

Cheers!

[Mike Laing]

Doug,
If it is a machine you want for production work check out felder or mini max 12 j/p combo machines, very nice and have lots of power , with many options available.

Mike

[Dev Emch]

As a fellow maker of dovetailed handplanes, here is my advice.:D Actually, I only make handtools during the winter these days and high end kitchen work during the summer season ending in september. In Vail, Colorado last night, the temperature dropped to 28 degrees. So the race is on!

You need a dedicated jointer! And not a tiny one. The one you have is already getting big so your spoiled. In terms of what is out there. You can go new or you can go used.

In the used market, look for a Porter 300 jointer in about the 16 in to 20 in width. I also like the Newman 60 which is what Lou is using right now. There is also the oliver 166 and the oliver #12 patternamaker. Nice! I have both a 24 inch oliver 166 and a 20 inch porter 300. Love them both! The oliver is from about 1949 and the porter is from about 1961. The porter is a wedge bed but I think its the best jointer ever made in the U.S. It inches out the olivers and newman by a tiny bit. But that is comparing a BMW to a Mecedes. I think I will ultimately sell my oliver 166 in favor of an oliver #12. The oliver #12 can rotate its infeed table to produce draft angles for use in making patterns. I still do some limited pattern work the old school way and having a drafting jointer would be nice. This ability to draft is what the #12 is famous for.

In the new market.... well, there is only one answer. Being the Martin dude on SMC, you already know this recommendation:D Without further ado and without any hessitation, the finest jointer ever built and available for sale today, esp. in the new market, is the Martin T-54 jointer out of Germany. This is the Carl Holtey of the jointer world. It is the standard by which jointer perfection is measured. The only flaw it has is its inability to draft. But if you think about that, that is a minor issue. The pattern maker of yesterday is a dinosaur. Extinct and going away. The patterns I do are for restoring my old machines and for rebuilding hydro-electric machines. Not enough to pay the electric bill if you forgive the pun.:rolleyes:

They have thought of almost everything. Convex and concave cuts. Adjustability of table slope. Adjustability of the cutter yoke. The ability to use both carbide and steel knives in the same head at the same time. A fence that rides on ball bearings and can do veneer with the ease of large planks. The ability to set a depth of cut within seconds accurate to within thousands of an inch. And electrical subsystem that supports power feeders out of the box. And you can stand dimes on edge and take cuts without the dimes falling over! There is effectively no vibration. The tables are not ground but rather planed. The table system is based on a parallogram system with integral bearings. So no matter how deep a cut you take, the distance between your lip and the knife remains the same. Always!

Hope this helps and best of luck...

[Jim Becker]

On the other hand...if your needs can be satisfied with staying with a 10" machine and you want new and reasonably priced, the "Oliver" being sold by Sunhill is a nice machine according to folks who have recently purchased it. That said, the advice about a spiral or heilical head is a good one for working with the exotics. At the very least...drop in knives that require no setup when you change them would be very convenient. (My MM J/P uses Tersa and it's a blessing....slide 'em out and slide 'em in. Done)

[Michael Ballent]

If you are interested in something that is lower down the food chain Jet 6" will be available with indexed double sided blades like what you find in planers... It about time the manufacturers started doing this...

[Alan Turner]

I have an old American Woodworking Machinery 12" jointer, and had Byrd make me a Shelix to fit. It does tropicals, exotics, quilted maple and the rest without tear out. I rarely look at the grain before jointing. For your usage, and given the price of tropicals, inc. Cocobola, the Byrd head would seem to be cost effective. For me it is just a nice luxury.

[Doug Evans]

Thanks for that. A lot of guys have mentioned the helix cutter for the tropicals.

D

[skip gleichman]

I am considering both old 16" jointers from Northfield, Oliver and Porter and back-beveling the knives od getting a New Oliver with either their Helical head (2 sided inserts) or a byrd head. Has anyone any experience with the new Oliver Helix head? I keep going back and forth but need to make a decision within a month. A 20" Helix planer is already in the works.

[Dev Emch]

Byrd actually has quite a few OEM contracts with import companies. So you may be getting a shelix. Also bear in mind that not every insert head is a shelix head. They may look alike but they are not. In a shelix head, the cutting angle of the insert is actually at a shear angle. This is not the case in say an oliver ITCH head. As I recall, Byrd has patent protection on this.

The byrd head and the ITCH head have proven quite useful on tropicals and for planers doing tropicals, its the ultimate way to go. Jointers on the other hand often have to do a variety of things. Placing an ITCH head or shelix head on a jointer esp. one with a rebate shelf may not be a good idea. These insert heads dont work very well on rebate operations. Now, as most folks do not use jointers for rebate use, this is not an issue. Just something to keep in mind.

Another thing to think about is cost. Large heads can consume boxes full of inserts which can cost as much as $5 to $10 dollars each depending on the insert and the dealer. Carbide inserts used in the oliver ITCH heads can be reground with the ITCH head grinding attachment. It takes a little skill to do this but it works. I am not clear on what you can do with inserts from say Bryd. Once you have used all four sides, can you send the inserts back for regrinding?

Bryd makes heads for a variety of jointers including oliver, porter and northfield. You may wish to try them to see if retrofitting your new used machine is an option.

I have seen the new two sided helical heads for sale through Schmidt. Not sure on how to answer your question. One thing is for sure. Because this new design allows the cutting angle to be skewed into a true shear angle, these heads should only be compared to a true bryd head. All other heads have cutting angles parallel to the cutter axis at the point of contact with the wood. So they are not cutting at a true shear angle. I guess this is one way to get around the SHELIX concept.

Good Luck...

[skip gleichman]

Thanks Dev,

I am actually looking at purchasing a late Oliver 299 with and "ITCH" head. Fir the jointer, I am only concerned with getting wide slabs of figured wood flat without tearout. I like the look of the helical head on Olivers site as it looks kindof like an "itch" with wider (30mm) inserts that are angled for a shearing cut. I wish i could see a new Oliver jointer up close but being cast iron to the floor is a good sign.

[lou sansone]

like dev said

the newman 60 is a real nice machine and they do come around from time to time. I like mine.

best wishes
lou

[skip gleichman]

Is that a "Newman Head"? I saw one of those on a 30" Buss planer and it was very impressive. That is a true helical design. It must do very well with even quilted maple?

[Dev Emch]

Caution on buying late model 299 planers. If the planer has a rounded look and hopefully, a red and white or black and gold tag, then your O.K. If the planer has a very squared off look and esp. if its got a sliver and white tag and the feed motor bell sticks out the lower front of the planer, then that is a late model 299 and we dont like those. Check the previous posts I have made on type 1, type 2 and type 3 299 planers. Type 3 planers began comming off the line about 1975 ish. They are O.K. planers but nothing to write home about. That was about the time when oliver began "Cost Engineering" the product line. The type 2 299s were/are some of the finest 24 inch planers ever made.

[Jimmy Tallent]

Ive been thinking about a big jointer. Where do you find used big jointers,that can be refurbished.

[Dev Emch]

Jimmy...
I would start with joining the yahoo groups OWWM forum bunch. Then begin hunting down used dealers but be careful as these guys can be worse than the wolf in red riding hood! Then start sniffing about auctions. Cabinet shops and in particular, pattern shops that are calling it quits.

You may wish to call Jeff Mahajek at www.northfiedwoodworking.com (http://www.northfiedwoodworking.com). His family owns northfield who makes the HD jointer. Also check out the woodweb used machinery page.

Lastly, talk to the guys who use this stuff all the time. Find out what they like and dont like. Just because its huge and old does not make it the cats meow! There is a bunch of junk out there that should be sold to china for new toyotas or whatever. But in this junk are the occasional gems which are awsome killer jointers.

There are online auction services such as the IRS auctions and some even wind up on ebay. Check your classified pages in the paper as well. And once you know what your looking for, be patient. You may need to wait a while before something shows up. Also, you may wish to have to go a bit smaller or larger than what your looking for. If your after a 16 inch jointer by a particular maker, you may find a 12 inch version or a 20 inch version.

Lastly, I hope I am not violating a TOS thing here. But I have bought a number of machines from Steve at 303-277-1758. These have turned out very well and I am happy. At this point, when I need something, I just let him hunt it down for me. This is a hobby for him and I have no fiscal connections with him what so ever. He is a serious hobbyist and often buys and sells machines as the opportunity arises keeping some of what he finds for himself.

Another source is CS Machinery in Oxford, PA. This outfit is run by Bill Kerfoot. This is where I found my used Martin T-17 saw. Actually, Steve bought it from Bill and later on, eventually sold it to me.

Best of Luck...