Saw sharpening input

[Phil Mueller]

This is a garage sale 5.5ppi crosscut (or at least will be). The first photo is what I'm working with. I'm using Dykem to keep track. The second photo is about half way with one side only. I'm filing (or trying to file!) 12* rake, 20* fleam. I'm using a 8 regular file.

I'm filing until I get to somewhere between 1/3 to less than 1/2 of the file width and as close a sharp "v" at the gullet as it seems the file will produce. It's taking a good 10-12 strokes to get there.

Any comments? Good to go for the rest of the saw?
Thanks.

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[Stew Denton]

Hi Phil,

Believe me, there are drastically better saw sharpeners than I am on this site, but I would make a couple of comments.

First, as you probably know, 5.5 points is a very common type for a rip saw, but uncommon for a crosscut. It is pretty coarse for anything but EXTREMELY rough work for a crosscut saw. It is very hard to start a crosscut saw that coarse. If it were me, I would sharpen it as a rip saw, leaving it a rip saw, and not make it into a cross cut saw. This is just my humble opinion, and nothing more, but in my view, 5.5 points is good for a rip saw but makes for a lousy crosscut.

If you are keen to have it be a crosscut, I would retooth it to an 8 point if you want it for a general purpose crosscut saw, or to a 10 or 12 point if you want it as a cross cut saw for fine woodworking. We used to use 8 point crosscut saws for general carpentry, and they worked fine for use in framing, but we used 10s and sometimes even 12s for finish work. Thus, I think 5.5 points is way to much of a good thing for a crosscut saw.

When I sharpen a saw, the first thing I do is take an ordinary mill file, lay it lengthwise down the tooth line with the file square to the saw plate, and run the file lengthwise down the length of the teeth. Repeat this until you get a small flat on the end of each tooth. I then use the three corner file from one side of the saw until 1/2 of each flat disappears. The saw is then turned around in the saw vise, and I file on the teeth until the other half of the flat disappears and you have nice sharp points. The purpose of the flat made by the mill file is so that when the flat just disappears in sharpening, then all the teeth are the same height. If you need to set the teeth, do that here, but do not get too carried away, as it is VERY EASY to get too much set, and such is often the case with many saw sharpeners.

Once that is done it may be necessary to run a stone down one side of the teeth or the other, sometimes both, if the saw pulls one way or the other.

I am afraid that it looks like you may be heading for a situation where the teeth on one side of the saw are taller than the teeth on the other side. It may only be the camera angle, or something similar, but it does kind of look like that may be going on. Thus the reason for using a mill file to make a flat on the end of each tooth.

That said, it looks like the teeth on the saw were a hideous mess before you bought it, and I am virtually certain that what you are doing will make it a lot better.

Remember, however, that there are much better folks at sharpening a saw than I am, so consider what I saw with a grain of salt.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Phil,

Stew makes some good points. He may not have caught that you have only filed the teeth on one side so far.

It is easier to get the teeth all to the same height by first jointing the saw with a mill file as he suggested. Be careful, wear gloves and if need be make a holder for the file out of a block of wood. Cut a slot square in the block of wood to snugly hold the file.

Then as Stew said only cut until half the flat is gone from the tooth. The other half gets removed when you come back for the other side. It is sometimes necessary to joint the saw a few times.

I like a 5.5ppi crosscut for things like 4X6s and railroad ties.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you both. Points well taken. I guess I'm not as concerned with the actual daily usefulness as getting a feel for crosscut sharpening on a larger tooth saw before going to the finer crosscut saws. I have a professionally hand sharpened 5.5 rip already, so wasn't really looking for a second. To your point Jim, it may just become my construction lumber saw.

Before more jump in with comments, let me take the advice, joint the saw, file some teeth and post an update.

[george wilson]

You are getting "Long tooth,short tooth" as seen in photo #2 because you are filing at an uphill angle instead of holding the file straight across the saw. It is always tempting to do that because it at least gives you the feeling that the sound will be less grating,I suppose. That won't happen anyway,regardless of how you file if you have the saw blade closely clamped in a vise so the teeth can't vibrate. You don't want a grating,vibrating sound as it is VERY HARD on the file. Breaks the cutting edge off of the file teeth.

Now,what I mean is you can hold the saw at an angle as seen vertically if you are filing for a crosscut saw. but,seen from the side of the file,it should be 90 degrees to the blade.

Respectfully,the long tooth,short tooth has nothing to do with jointing the teeth. It is just because you're holding the file at an uphill angle.

You are also filing a "stub tooth",where the teeth form a perfect pyramid instead of a
pyramid tilted towards the direction of cutting.. The saw will cut,but it will not cut as well at all the way you're filing it. The excessively backwards cutting angle you are filing will prevent that,and the saw will not give you a satisfactory "sharp" feel as it saws.It won't want to dig into the wood with the excessive backwards cutting angle. If you don't understand,try sawing with a sharp,factory sharpened saw,then compare the "feel" to your saw.

You ARE doing a neat job of it,and I am certain that when you get the file and the angles correct,you will have learned to file a saw very well.

I hope you understand what I mean. I have tried to explain it as simply as I can since I woke up in the middle of the night and just lay there until I got up.

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you George. I do understand and appreciate your comments. I hope you'll all indulge me as I go through this learning curve. I'll give it another run and post an update for input.

[Tom M King]

Joint first. Take half of the flat from each side. If you don't do this, you will almost always get the teeth out of proportion on each side. This is the most common error people make to start with. You don't always have to joint, but you really need to when you are first learning.

[george wilson]

I didn't mean NOT to joint. But jointing is not the cause of the "long tooth,short tooth" problem. As messed up as that saw looked when you started,no doubt it needed jointing.

[Tom M King]

The reason for jointing is to give you a guide for maintaining tooth height. Stop filing when you run out of flat. Use that as a guide, and not how much of the file you use. Any filing past that will make a tooth too short. It's harder to get one that's not even on both sides balanced, but if you can do that, you will have learned a lot. I believe you'll get it though.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks. Makes total sense.

[Tom M King]

Pressure on the file goes straight down.....most of the time, and it's really not that much pressure. That way you are taking the same amount off the back of one tooth as you do off the front of another tooth-the reason why you take half of the flat from jointing on the first side, and then the rest when you turn the saw around. There are times when you need to take more off of one part than the other, but leave that for later. Best to just get the feel for the file to start with, and what it does.

When I'm sharpening one that's in good shape but dull, I try to joint just enough so one full stroke of the file is all I need. Once you learn how to sharpen, you will not let one get dull past the point where this will work. Otherwise, not only will the saw not work as well, but the amount of work goes up for one sharpening session.

This is different than sharpening a chainsaw chain, where you push straight back into the tooth with the file

[Pat Barry]

This is a garage sale 5.5ppi crosscut (or at least will be). The first photo is what I'm working with. I'm using Dykem to keep track. The second photo is about half way with one side only. I'm filing (or trying to file!) 12* rake, 20* fleam. I'm using a 8 regular file.

I'm filing until I get to somewhere between 1/3 to less than 1/2 of the file width and as close a sharp "v" at the gullet as it seems the file will produce. It's taking a good 10-12 strokes to get there.

Any comments? Good to go for the rest of the saw?
Thanks.

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Hey Phil, I found the information at Vintage Saws (http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html) to be very helpful. Not sure if you have seen this. Lots of good tips regarding how to file.

[David Eisenhauer]

Thanks so very much for starting this thread Phil. I just received my file order from LV this afternoon and am working my way towards starting on saw sharpening. The info received from your photos, plus the advice from George and Tom is just the exact kind of stuff that works for me when just starting out on something.

[lowell holmes]

Popular Woodworking has a video by Ron Herman. It is called "Sharpen Your Handsaw". It is a very good video to have if you are going to sharpen your saws.
Check it out.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks again all. I jointed it until all teeth had a small flat and gave it another run on the first dozen teeth or so (both directions). Taking off half the flat on the first direction, and taking it to a point on the second. "Flats" we're not all the same size, so some took more filing than others.

The teeth are darn level, even if the photo doesn't appear so. Gullet depth is pretty uneven - not sure that matters? I'm getting a few pyramid teeth and a somewhat uneven forward lean. It also looks like one or two didn't get filed to a fine point.

Is that just getting better at keeping the file angle more consistent? I am using a guide...but the muscle memory just isn't there yet. All comments appreciated.

And David, I hope you have a saw that's in better shape than this one. On the other hand, I frankly don't mind if I joint this thing down to nothing until I get it right:eek:

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[James Waldron]

Regarding the uneven gullets: I think as you go on with the effort, you'll find this a problem, as the undersized gullets won't hold much saw dust and cause the saw to rise up on each stroke, slowing the cutting action. I've seen this a couple of times on yard sale treasures.

I don't know how others do it, but with a saw in bad shape, I always shape the teeth first, filing straight across at the appropriate rake angle to get even spacing of teeth and (mostly) uniform gullets. Then I sharpen. Then I set. Until I have (mostly) uniform teeth, I can't really get a really well-behaved tool. It's a bit more work, but the result is worth it. YMMV!

Edit: on a cross cut saw, I ignore the fleam "as found" on a garage sale saw when I go to work on it. After shaping the teeth, I pick my own fleam angle and slope angle.

[Patrick Chase]

Regarding the uneven gullets: I think as you go on with the effort, you'll find this a problem, as the undersized gullets won't hold much saw dust and cause the saw to rise up on each stroke, slowing the cutting action. I've seen this a couple of times on yard sale treasures.

I don't know how others do it, but with a saw in bad shape, I always shape the teeth first, filing straight across at the appropriate rake angle to get even spacing of teeth and (mostly) uniform gullets. Then I sharpen. Then I set. Until I have (mostly) uniform teeth, I can't really get a really well-behaved tool. It's a bit more work, but the result is worth it. YMMV!

I do the same, except I set before final sharpening (though I suspect it doesn't matter that much).

[Patrick Chase]

Hey Phil, I found the information at Vintage Saws (http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html) to be very helpful. Not sure if you have seen this. Lots of good tips regarding how to file.

I agree with Pat - vintagesaws has a bunch of good articles on the topic. Vintage Saws is Pete Taran, who co-founded Independence Tool. Lie-Nielsen later bought Independence to kickstart their own saw business. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/premium-backsaws-a-history-lesson

[Phil Mueller]

I did spend a considerable amount of time reading as much as I could find and just downloaded Ron Herman's video. I'm about half way through it. Certainly seems I need to spend more time shaping the teeth first. This saw was/is a mess (perhaps someone else's first practice saw!).

Appreciate the input. I'm going to joint this thing again and take some time to shape the teeth.

[Pat Barry]

I did spend a considerable amount of time reading as much as I could find and just downloaded Ron Herman's video. I'm about half way through it. Certainly seems I need to spend more time shaping the teeth first. This saw was/is a mess (perhaps someone else's first practice saw!).

Appreciate the input. I'm going to joint this thing again and take some time to shape the teeth.
Its amazing what you can see when you use a camera and blow up the view. Without this sort of magnification and lighting you are literally filing in the dark. As you can see from the pictures is that the natural result of the deeper gullets is the tooth spacing also increased. Shallower gullets equal shorter spacing. If the pattern repeats down the length of the saw you have created a combination of spacing and gullet depth.

Test it. Does it cut straight and smooth. If so, you accomplished what you needed to.

To fix it though, I think the filing process for this blade might be best to joint it significantly first, then sneak up on the finished filing. Start with one side, but instead of trying to removed half of the flat on each pass, only give it half that much. Repeat for the other side. Check the spacing with a ruler / gage / higher magnification, then repeat the filing process for both sides. That's if you want perfection of course - well perfection might be too much to ask for.

One question I have for the masses is for example the comparison to a rasp. I hear folks say that they prize their hand formed rasps exactly because the randomness in the toothing as compared to the more uniform pattern of a machine made rasp. They randomness leads to smoother use (I have no personal experience on this myself). Wouldn't that same logic apply to hand saw tooth pattern. Maybe its a good thing to have a non uniform pattern (as long as the saw cuts straight). Wouldn't the randomness of pitch and size lead to the same perception of better feel that the hand made rasp gives?

[David Eisenhauer]

I had already downloaded the Vintage Saw primer (my only real info on the subject) but may look for the Ron Herman video. The saw I need to sharpen is a 13 ppi dovetail saw with (for my not-so-young eyes) tiny teeth and I have read here that it is best to start on a larger saw when first starting out. My carpenter hand saws are in good shape at this time, so I'm hoping I can get away with starting on the smaller saw. With it being a rip saw (perhaps easier to get started with?), the teeth looking uniform in height and the kerf working as it is, hopefully just a single stroke of the file at 90* will make it better. The saw works pretty well now, but is dull. I need to fab up a shop-made saw vise and come up with a file holder gizmo to guesstimate the filing angle with. The Ron Herman video will probably be the next step.

[Patrick Chase]

One question I have for the masses is for example the comparison to a rasp. I hear folks say that they prize their hand formed rasps exactly because the randomness in the toothing as compared to the more uniform pattern of a machine made rasp. They randomness leads to smoother use (I have no personal experience on this myself). Wouldn't that same logic apply to hand saw tooth pattern. Maybe its a good thing to have a non uniform pattern (as long as the saw cuts straight). Wouldn't the randomness of pitch and size lead to the same perception of better feel that the hand made rasp gives?

Yes, I think the same logic applies to saws. If you start a saw cut with too much pressure you'll leave divots spaced by the tooth pitch such that the saw "locks in", and sometimes the easiest way to fix that (besides not botching the initiation to begin with) is to change to a saw with different pitch.

IMO the big differences are that we don't hand-sharpen rasps, and that the bottoms (the part the teeth attack) of rasp cuts are often show surfaces whereas the bottoms of saw cuts usually aren't.

[Patrick Chase]

I did spend a considerable amount of time reading as much as I could find and just downloaded Ron Herman's video. I'm about half way through it. Certainly seems I need to spend more time shaping the teeth first. This saw was/is a mess (perhaps someone else's first practice saw!).

Appreciate the input. I'm going to joint this thing again and take some time to shape the teeth.

I think Herman covers this, but for shaping a saw like that you need to known how to pressure the file towards the heel or toe to shift the points to their correct locations.

[Jim Koepke]

One question I have for the masses is for example the comparison to a rasp. I hear folks say that they prize their hand formed rasps exactly because the randomness in the toothing as compared to the more uniform pattern of a machine made rasp. They randomness leads to smoother use (I have no personal experience on this myself). Wouldn't that same logic apply to hand saw tooth pattern. Maybe its a good thing to have a non uniform pattern (as long as the saw cuts straight). Wouldn't the randomness of pitch and size lead to the same perception of better feel that the hand made rasp gives?

With a hand stitched rasp the teeth are all the same height. The variance is they are not in perfect rows like a machine made rasp.

With a saw, if one tooth is taller than all the others, you will likely feel it when you are sawing. I know from experience it can be a very unpleasant feeling.

There are good arguments for a controlled variance in pitch or rake to increase the ease of starting a saw. The operative word is 'controlled.'

If one tooth or a few teeth are set more than the others, this can also be a problem. It may even be seen on the cut edge as a repeated line that follows the arc of the saw's movement.

jtk

[george wilson]

Regarding uneven size teeth: I use HSS bandsaw blades on my Roll In bandsaw(a GREAT machine!) The saw bands are made with uneven size teeth to prevent a rougher cut caused by harmonic vibration. Many industrial bandsaw blades that have larger teeth have this uneven tooth size to them. The teeth are all the SAME height,though.

I think we might just like to see even teeth on our handsaws,perhaps. I don't file mine to uneven size teeth,but I can't say it is a bad idea. It might be a bit tricky to get the teeth uneven sizes and keep them at the same height,though,for the person who is a home shop saw filer.

Since we aren't sawing metal with a wood cutting saw,it probably doesn't make a huge difference in the smoothness of the cut,or harmonic vibrations as the saw is reversed every second or 2.

[Patrick Chase]

With a hand stitched rasp the teeth are all the same height. The variance is they are not in perfect rows like a machine made rasp.

With a saw, if one tooth is taller than all the others, you will likely feel it when you are sawing. I know from experience it can be a very unpleasant feeling.

There are good arguments for a controlled variance in pitch or rake to increase the ease of starting a saw. The operative word is 'controlled.'

If one tooth or a few teeth are set more than the others, this can also be a problem. It may even be seen on the cut edge as a repeated line that follows the arc of the saw's movement.

jtk

To be clear, when I agreed with Pat I assumed we were talking about randomness in pitch, not height. Variation in height seems problematic to me except in specific cases like the raker teeth in a 2-man crosscut saw. Admittedly I've never tried it on a handsaw though.

[steven c newman]

The type of teeth shown in the OP's saw is known as "Cows & Calfs" One has to either completely re-tooth the saw, or.....file ONLY in the shallow gullets to bring things back to a normal profile. File only the shallow gullets, leave the rest alone. As long as the teeth are all the same height.

[Pat Barry]

Regarding uneven size teeth: I use HSS bandsaw blades on my Roll In bandsaw(a GREAT machine!) The saw bands are made with uneven size teeth to prevent a rougher cut caused by harmonic vibration. Many industrial bandsaw blades that have larger teeth have this uneven tooth size to them. The teeth are all the SAME height,though..
Yes, I did mean different pitch (spacing), not uneven heights (tips not level to each other). The jointing process and filing to just remove the flat is what results in the tips of the teeth being level to each other even though the teeth are not the same size due to deeper or shallower gullets.

[Patrick Chase]

The reason for jointing is to give you a guide for maintaining tooth height. Stop filing when you run out of flat. Use that as a guide, and not how much of the file you use. Any filing past that will make a tooth too short. It's harder to get one that's not even on both sides balanced, but if you can do that, you will have learned a lot. I believe you'll get it though.

Jointing also makes it easier to "move the points" if you have teeth that are poorly spaced and need to be recut on different centers. With the right filing technique you can easily put the point anywhere within the land that jointing leaves. That's usually how I decide how much to joint - I keep going until I see a flat spot on the tip of every tooth *and* those spots are big enough to accommodate any relocation that needs to be done.

[Glen Canaday]

I have a dozen or so saws that need some love. Some worth practicing on, some need a more experienced hand. Hopefully I'll have time to practice this spring. I'm pretty much in the same boat as the OP.

On the topic of garage sale large-toothed crosscut saws, last summer I dug up a Keen Kutter #180 5ppi crosscut, 26". I haven't touched it with a file yet, but it takes something like 6 strokes to get through a 2x4. I can definitely see the utility.

[Mike Allen1010]

Regarding the uneven gullets: I think as you go on with the effort, you'll find this a problem, as the undersized gullets won't hold much saw dust and cause the saw to rise up on each stroke, slowing the cutting action. I've seen this a couple of times on yard sale treasures.

I don't know how others do it, but with a saw in bad shape, I always shape the teeth first, filing straight across at the appropriate rake angle to get even spacing of teeth and (mostly) uniform gullets. Then I sharpen. Then I set. Until I have (mostly) uniform teeth, I can't really get a really well-behaved tool. It's a bit more work, but the result is worth it. YMMV!

Edit: on a cross cut saw, I ignore the fleam "as found" on a garage sale saw when I go to work on it. After shaping the teeth, I pick my own fleam angle and slope angle.

Phil, thanks for posting this thread – learning to sharpen handsaw's is a fundamental hand tool woodworking skill IMHO, and something that doesn't come easily the first time around.

+1 to James comments. FWIW, working from one side of the saw plate (with a guide block on the file) to establish uniform spacing, rake angle and profile is an essential first step to achieving your end goal of a sharp saw. In my experience, if you try and skip this step two move right into filing fleam angle etc., it always cost you more time/results than you think you are saving.

Often a irregular sized teeth/gullets are the result of using a dull file. In re-profiling a tooth line like yours that needs a significant amount of work, I typically go through 2 quality files (Bahco, Grobet, etc.). Once the file starts to dull, it's a lot easier to get the fundamentals out of wack.


I also think your idea of learning to file crosscut teeth on larger 5 PPI teeth is a helpful way to actually see how the "tooth profiling" step fits with establishing the fleam angle, and subsequent steps of sharpening. I have a couple 5 PPI crosscut saws and they're great for fenceposts and other outdoor/softwood construction. Otherwise I think Stew is right that for typical furniture and construction trim work a seven – eight PPI pitch is this course as you'll ever need to go.


Fight the good fight, you are deathly making progress. There's no substitute for experience. You will be amazed how much better the next saw is than the first one you worked on.


All the best, Mike

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks Mike. I am actually using the nice 5.5 rip I purchased from you as my benchmark. Comparing the two certainly shows how out of whack this saw is, and how well you can sharpen a saw!

I'm probably taking a big leap, but have decided to joint it flat and re-tooth. Because of that, I think I am going to keep it a bit more simple and file this rip...probably 7ppi just for yucks. I suppose once I have the teeth right, I could change it to a crosscut?

Anyway, nothing like just getting after it to get a feel for things. Thanks for the vote of confidence!

[Stewie Simpson]

FWIW, working from one side of the saw plate (with a guide block on the file) to establish uniform spacing, rake angle and profile is an essential first step to achieving your end goal of a sharp saw. In my experience, if you try and skip this step two move right into filing fleam angle etc., it always cost you more time/results than you think you are saving.

Excellent advise Mike.