Steamed in Arkansas...

[David Rose]

AOHell just cut me off after about my normal lengthy page... :mad:

When designing or redesigning a project, I frequently find errors in design or drawing as I go. By this time I usually have drawn up a cut list and cut a few pieces. :( Is this normal, my age showing, or just plain lack of experience?

I have a drawing done in Turbo Cad, my normal medium, with 55 pieces and it is perturbing. I am no engineer, but surely there is a better way.

Suggestions?

David

[Bob Lasley]

David,

I have been using DeltaCad for sometime now and it has saved my tail many times, but I still catch things as I am building. That's why people who publish plans build prototypes first, even Norm. I just chalk it up to part of the process. I was lucky with the crib project and caught the errors before I made the cuts, drilled the holes, etc, well except for one and nobody will ever know but me!:p

Hang in there and just buy a little extra lumber to start with.

Bob

[David Blangger]

Bob is right,

If it's for a customer or expensive wood ( what wood isn't;) )

I always do a prototype and then have to still slow myself down.

My inner self thinks it is perfect after one attempt even though my outter self has proved this not to be the case:D

David

[David Rose]

I have no aversion to them. I just wanted to make sure that I was not messing up. After three trips to the supplier on this project, I will buy extra wood (as I thought I did each time). I think I have a little extra now, so I may "have enough".

When the numbers get a little smaller I smile and say "cut off a little". When they get bigger more than cutting is involved. :rolleyes:

David

[Dennis Peacock]

Well....like Mr. Lasley there......I have been using DeltaCAD for sometime now and it has saved me a lot of money and time on fit and finish of a project. Shoot.....for $40 it has paid for itself SEVERAL times over. But...somethings are only learned by trial and error.....sometimes more error than trial. Just be patient as you progress and you too will succeed.

[David Rose]

of prototypes but don't usually take that much time.

I was hoping you guys would say something like "oh, it will get much better after you gain some experience". :(

That too is part of the learning process huh?

David

[Jason Roehl]

Guys, guys, guys. You should know by now that there are no "mistakes" or "errors" in woodworking. There are only "design features" and "character."

[Jim Becker]

Originally posted by Jason Roehl
Guys, guys, guys. You should know by now that there are no "mistakes" or "errors" in woodworking. There are only "design features" and "character."

Here, here!

I always find it useful to print out the stuff a few days before it's needed and then review it again without having seen it in the mean time. Sometimes "familiarity" clouds the mind, too.

It's also helpful to create (s) story stick(s) for a project. You'll pick up on problems that way quickly as you lay them out from your drawings, etc.

[Kevin Post]

I use another CAD package when drawing up plans. I generally mess up by neglecting to draw and account for extra material for joinery. For instance, I may need a board with 24" exposed but with 1.5" tenons on each end. When I get to the shop, I cut the board 24" instead of 27" then fling it into the driveway when I discover my error.

I suppose I could do exploded views with dimension lines all over the place but then I'd spend more time in front of the computer fighting with the CAD software than in the shop turning long boards into boards that are shorter than I need. :rolleyes: So, after I draw my designs I usually print them and scribble notes all over the pages.

The best thing about putting the stuff in CAD for me is that I find that I create plans with a little more detail than I would by quickly sketching them out on paper. I normally only get shop time on the weekends so I need to re-familiarize myself with the plan before I can return to a project. If I was looking at something I had sketched by hand the week before, I would spend more time wondering "What the heck was that supposed to be?"

-Kevin

[Dennis Peacock]

Originally posted by Jason Roehl
There are only "design features" and "character."

Jason......I LIKE the way you think!!!!!! Now...If'en I could just remember that while working on each of my projects!! ;-)

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi David

I use ButtCAD, otherwise known as seat of the pants engineering, so I guess I am a little different here. I have a program called Autosketch, where I lay out overall dimensions, but my method has always been to build and measure as I go.

Here is a piece I built a few years ago using my particular method of engineering and a 3x5 photo of the original. I didn't make to many mistakes, but then again I did not break any speed records either, as I spent a bunch of time puzzling some things out.

<img src= "http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/bgmusic02.jpg" >

It has an awful lot of parts to it, but the measure and cut method worked very well. Also, I did not build the music box sitting on top. I just made the stand to match an antique, as well as match the spindles to the box to make them look like they went together.

Bill

[Ken Salisbury]

5 Barns Grumbine said:
I use ButtCAD, otherwise known as seat of the pants engineering, so I guess I am a little different here.

Me thinks he is not alone in his methodology. We "old" people (those who have been at it since way before CAD, computers, all all them other fancy things) use his method. To be specific --- my method consists of rough pencil sketches on discarded brown paper bags with a few estimated overall measurements. Material list consists of what ever happens to be available. Every now and then it has resulted in an acceptable piece of work. ---- oh well I guess some of us are just lucky.
<p align="center">
<IMG src="http://www.klsal.com/Ancient.gif">

[Eric Apple - Central IN]

Geeze I have to go with the guys calling themselves old. I do a rough overall drawing by hand. These drawings are what is shown to the customer/friend/relative. So it usually looks at least OK and would include front , side views. Usually the front view is attempted to be isometric, while the side views are not. Maybe a paper bag or card board sort of semi-model to work out proportions gets done at some point. Then detailed hand drawings of complex joints and such as I build. I will establish one or two critical dimensions like width & height and then "recon" off of those for a good look and measure things by pencil marking as I build. Yep -- still makes mistakes like oops there were supposed to be tennons here and not air.

[Steve Jenkins]

I'm pretty much with Ken and Bill on this one. I make sketches on note paper on a clip board. I may have several pages by the time I'm finished building the piece. the problem with the design cad programs is if you don't use them all the time they are pretty slow because you either don't learn or forget the shortcuts. Also with the various thicknesses of "standard thickness " plywood I end up changing dimensions anyway. Occasionally when I need to look at something to scale I will use the cad but mostly it's just pencil and sketches. Steve

[Paul Held]

I'm with the "old" guys. Not that I consider myself old. But I generally use the seat of the pants design method. I sketch designs on pretty much anything. Once had a design for an end table, including turned leg profile on a postit note. Other times I'll sketch stuff on pieces of scap from the project I'm working on. I do spend some mental energy up front coming up with what the end product should look like in my head though. Paul in Vermont

[David Rose]

terminology? :D I "grew up" drafting with pencil and drawing table (when I had access to one). I still have a drawing board and T-square somewhere. I enjoy the cad work. But it does consume an awful lot of time that I would rather spend playing with wood.

It seems like the more details there are to a piece the more I feel that I have to get every one down on paper. I think part of it is just lack of confidence and part may be lack of experience. I am still green enough (and yeah, slow enough) that each new project has new things to learn that I haven't tried.

I use SOP a lot on really small projects. Perhaps that will come more with time.

Nobody roughs things out on napkins anymore? Do you guys not eat out or is it that the restaraunt would frown on you keeping their linen? Try faster food! :)

David

[Jim Becker]

Originally posted by Paul Held
I'm with the "old" guys. Not that I consider myself old. But I generally use the seat of the pants design method. I sketch designs on pretty much anything. Once had a design for an end table, including turned leg profile on a postit note.

Well, this is not a postit note, but below is the actual plan for the very first furniture project I made when I started woodworking back in 1988...a cherry desk for SWMBO inspired by a Thos Moser (http://www.thosmoser.com) piece. The final desk is slightly different, but a picture is available at this link (http://sawsndust.com/images/gallery/cherrydesk1.jpg) .

I use DesignCAD now for most of my large projects, but simple sketches are still very useful for many things. That being said, CAD is allowing me to document things better for future use by me or others.

[Steve Clardy]

Originally posted by Ken Salisbury
5 Barns Grumbine said:
I use ButtCAD, otherwise known as seat of the pants engineering, so I guess I am a little different here.

Me thinks he is not alone in his methodology. We "old" people (those who have been at it since way before CAD, computers, all all them other fancy things) use his method. To be specific --- my method consists of rough pencil sketches on discarded brown paper bags with a few estimated overall measurements. Material list consists of what ever happens to be available. Every now and then it has resulted in an acceptable piece of work. ---- oh well I guess some of us are just lucky.
<p align="center">
<IMG src="http://www.klsal.com/Ancient.gif">
Understand Ken perfectly. I have been known to pull up to macdonalds drive in with my order written on a scrap 2x4. Oh yea. Steve

[Glenn Clabo]

Originally posted by Steve Clardy
Understand Ken perfectly. I have been known to pull up to macdonalds drive in with my order written on a scrap 2x4. Oh yea. Steve

Steve...that kills me. TLOML bought me a recording tape measure because she saw me writing on a board. Between you and I it's the way I was taught to work. I always loose paper and now can't figure out how to see the measurements I record on the fancy tape measure. ;)

But don't tell her...she's the best.

[Steve Clardy]

Originally posted by Glenn Clabo
Steve...that kills me. TLOML bought me a recording tape measure because she saw me writing on a board. Between you and I it's the way I was taught to work. I always loose paper and now can't figure out how to see the measurements I record on the fancy tape measure. ;)

But don't tell her...she's the best.

Mums the word Glenn.

[Bill Grumbine]

Originally posted by Steve Clardy
Understand Ken perfectly. I have been known to pull up to macdonalds drive in with my order written on a scrap 2x4. Oh yea. Steve

I have suffered abuse on numerous ocassions for writing things down on a board, or walking into a store with a scrap of plywood with things written on it. I patiently explain that anyone can see that it is a message board!:D

Bill