Need a little help

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

I need to make 2 shelf supports for my grinding machine.

I want to make them of some oak I have laying around.

I need help to figure out how to make them with handtools only. which joints to use and how to make the lay outs.

I would like them to look something like this

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I know they are dead simple, but I have never made a single wooden joint before.

[Richard Line]

Here are pictures of a couple of similar things I've done using hand tools. One is a bird feeder bracket intended to keep the squirrels out, only partially successful. These are housed joints, with screws being used to secure the joints. The other is a fence gate, using half-lap dovetail and mortise and tendon (pegged) joints. The gate seems to be very sturdy. Both of this are getting toward timber framing.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Thanks Richard. Nice work you have done there.

I like the bird feeder, but to my use I would think that the stretcher should be at 45 degree, but the prinsip of the joints i like. would these joint hold up if they were only glued ? I don´t want to use screws.

[Kenneth Fisher]

Maybe a dado on the right angle and half laps on the 45 degree pieces. Those should be strong enough and fairly straight forward to do.

[David Eisenhauer]

You can reinforce the half laps with a dowel or two each to add some strength to the joints if you want.

[Richard Line]

I used screws mostly because glue joints would have been into end grain, and weather concerns with glue joints in cedar during our lovely NW winters. On the bird feeder bracket, the diagonal needed to be steeper for clearance; 45 deg. would definitely be better for your purpose - a vibrating tool. Half laps all around would work well, although I liked those half-lap dovetails and they are a solid joint. I would definitely be thinking of pinning the joints with wood pins, even draw-bored for a machine tool support.

[Warren Mickley]

I use mortise and tenon joints for something like this. I like to make the diagonal brace a little thinner than the horizontal and vertical members and have a tenon on each end. Tenons on diagonals usually are done like this brace made by Peter Follansbee:
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We usually use a mortise chisel to make mortises, but you can get by with another chisel.

[Paul Saffold]

I would use a half-lap dovetail to attach the horizontal piece to the vertical, then use what Warren showed for the diagonal brace. Glue should be enough.

[Lenore Epstein]

Maybe I'm missing something (heaven knows it's happened before), but the OP said he has never made any kind of wood joint and appears to have little if any experience working wood with hand tools. Granted, he also wants to avoid screws, which narrows the realm of possibilities, but I'm thinking that things like half lap dovetails or angled mortise and tenon joints may be less-than-optimal starting points for him.

[steven c newman]

Nothing real fancy needed.

Cut the angled piece a bit long. Make the 90 degree parts as needed. Assemble those two. Lay the angle brace onto the other two. Mark out a "dado" to house the angled part where it meets the straight parts.

The real fancy part of the joint? Cut a small dado across the joints so a 3/4 x 3/4 "pin" can be glued in place, once you drive it in. Square pin, or even a sliding dovetailed pin.

Think in terms of a locked Scarf joint.

Make it a bit easier.....drill through both joints to install a dowel. No glue. Saw a kerf on each end of the dowel. Install a small wedge on one end. Slide the wedged dowel up from the bottom, and install the second wedge. have a mallet held on the bottom end, and drive the wedge home. Joint is now locked, and no other fasteners needed. Nor glue.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Lots of good suggestions here. Thanks gents

[Pat Barry]

How much weight are your expecting to place on these supports Lasse, because unless that is known, all we can do is overengineer it. I think for a shelf support for example, where there isn't going to be a lot of weight, then I woould recommend you use screws to secure each of the three joints. Think of something like a coarse drywall screw (2 per joint). The material looks like construction lumber so I'd suggest something like 3 inch screws. There is no need for anything more sophisticated. If you want a challenge, then make a horizontal groove in the vertical support for the horizontal member to be recessed into. Still use screws to secure it.

[george wilson]

The left hand picture in post #2 shows good joints. I use something similar. Lasse,let your 45º brace about twice as deep into the wood at each end. The important principle is that the 45º brace is let INTO the wood at each end,so it can't slip over the vertical and horizontal members. That way,the angled piece will help support a lot more weight. And,will help the wood to not just split where the screws are.

Unfortunately I have no pictures of the shelves I made for my previous workshop,but they held up HEAVY cast iron and steel accessories for machine tools,and were similar to the bird feeder in design.

[Prashun Patel]

This is a great project to practice joints on.

Make it exactly as it looks.

Mill all your pieces square and straight and a little long.

Cut your upright first.
Cut the horizontal piece second.
Hold the horizontal in place to the vertical and mark the top/bottom with a knife or gauge. Mark your depth, and then saw a bunch of kerfs through the 'waste'. Come back with a chisel and knock out most of the waste, and finally smooth it with a block plane. You can smooth the corners with a chisel or a shoulder plane if you have one.

Do the same thing for the diagonal piece, but make a 45 degree block to guide your saw for each cheek of the dado.

This arrangement will have good mechanical stability. The fact that each of those glue joints will be kind of week isn't a big issue. But if it were me, I would reinforce each joint with screws or even a bolt.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I was just going to post a diagram of what one of my references calls a "toe joint." It looks a lot like what is in the photos, and what George is talking about, I thought the diagram was helpful, so will post it anyway. Warren's would obviously work well, but for a first joint, this one may be simpler. If the horse is already dead, I apologize!

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[Lasse Hilbrandt]

George and Nicholas

I made a small sketch I wanted to post to see if this is what you mean ?

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I still want it to hold up without screws, what do you think ?

Perhaps its difficult to see, but I drawed a sliding dovetail for the joint between the vertical and horizontal beams.

[Matthew Springer]

Lasse,
That design looks fine. The joint in the upper right can be straight into the top piece. As the load on the angle increases, the joint at the upper right wants to split the wood bit that holds the angled piece out. I think that will be the weakest part of the angle. The angled hole is unnecessary since the inner side of the angled piece at the top is trying to pull apart as the angled piece wants to move to the end of the horizontal piece.

Since you mentioned making this with handtools, let me address that.

Questions:
-> do you have reasonably straight wood?
-> how critical is the tightness of the fit? Are you ok using glue since you don't want to use screws? Glue covers a multitude of sins....

If the dimensions are small and you have reasonably straight wood, you can probably get away without a plane or a real bench.

The tools you will need are:
a) a sharp knife (a hobby knife or an exacto knife is best) or a mechanical pencil. You will need to scribe lines between the pieces.
b) a small crosscut saw for the basic cuts.
c) a sharp chisel.
d) a big table or something on which to clamp the work.

Nice to have:
a small router plane or depth gauge so you know how deep to make the holes.
a jointer plane to get the wood straight
a shoulder plane to trim the tenon bits.

The basic idea is to layout one part of the joint, cut that part, then using that part, layout the mating bit on the other part.

Usually you do the hole/female part of the joint (mortise) part first then layout the male part (tenon) second BECAUSE the male part is easier to trim since it sticks out.

[Bill Houghton]

The weight on the horizontal piece will cause it to want to pull away from the vertical piece. If you can build it so that the top, horizontal piece goes all the way to the wall, a single dovetail with the horizontal piece having the tail, going into two half-pins on the vertical piece will work. Your sliding dovetail idea is another approach. For someone just learning joints, I think the single dovetail might be easier than the sliding one.

Your drawing, above, recognizes the need for pockets for the brace into the horizontal and vertical pieces. Here's another drawing, slightly simpler, perhaps, than what you drew (although your drawing's small enough that I'm having trouble seeing the detail):
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How will you fasten it to the wall?

[John Sanford]

Dead simple, or at least simplest. Dowels. Me, I don't like dowels, so I wouldn't go that route.

My choice would be bridle joints. Easier than mortise and tenon. Provides support on both sides, unlike a half-lap. If you were paranoid, you could pin the bridle joints with dowels.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

Lasse,
That design looks fine. The joint in the upper right can be straight into the top piece. As the load on the angle increases, the joint at the upper right wants to split the wood bit that holds the angled piece out. I think that will be the weakest part of the angle. The angled hole is unnecessary since the inner side of the angled piece at the top is trying to pull apart as the angled piece wants to move to the end of the horizontal piece.

Since you mentioned making this with handtools, let me address that.

Questions:
-> do you have reasonably straight wood?
-> how critical is the tightness of the fit? Are you ok using glue since you don't want to use screws? Glue covers a multitude of sins....

If the dimensions are small and you have reasonably straight wood, you can probably get away without a plane or a real bench.

The tools you will need are:
a) a sharp knife (a hobby knife or an exacto knife is best) or a mechanical pencil. You will need to scribe lines between the pieces.
b) a small crosscut saw for the basic cuts.
c) a sharp chisel.
d) a big table or something on which to clamp the work.

Nice to have:
a small router plane or depth gauge so you know how deep to make the holes.
a jointer plane to get the wood straight
a shoulder plane to trim the tenon bits.

The basic idea is to layout one part of the joint, cut that part, then using that part, layout the mating bit on the other part.

Usually you do the hole/female part of the joint (mortise) part first then layout the male part (tenon) second BECAUSE the male part is easier to trim since it sticks out.

Im sorry but I don´t know what you mean in the first section of your reply.

Tools are not a problem, I got plenty, Im unfortunately one of those guys who thinks too much, buy tools, reads up on all the stuff, but hardly get anything done...but Im trying to change that.

Thankyou for taking your time to reply.

[Lasse Hilbrandt]

The weight on the horizontal piece will cause it to want to pull away from the vertical piece. If you can build it so that the top, horizontal piece goes all the way to the wall, a single dovetail with the horizontal piece having the tail, going into two half-pins on the vertical piece will work. Your sliding dovetail idea is another approach. For someone just learning joints, I think the single dovetail might be easier than the sliding one.

Your drawing, above, recognizes the need for pockets for the brace into the horizontal and vertical pieces. Here's another drawing, slightly simpler, perhaps, than what you drew (although your drawing's small enough that I'm having trouble seeing the detail):
333580

How will you fasten it to the wall?



I will fasten it with expansion bolts to a concrete wall.

I see on your sketch that the horisontal is jointed with a through tenon, thats better than the sliding dovetail I drawed. the tenon I could drawbore for extra security.