Need help with VFD switch

[Matt Day]

I have a VFD on my bandsaw, and am currently using a standard household switch to turn it on and off. The VFD uses a simple 12V signal for the remote ON/OFF. I'd like to upgrade that one to a paddle style switch (the big red paddle that's easier to hit ICE), and also use one on my table saw that has a VFD. I ordered 2 of these but they don't work:
http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-D4160-110-Volt-Paddle-Switch/dp/B005W17HYY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457380869&sr=8-2&keywords=paddle+switch
It only works if the on button is held down. My understanding is that it's a DPST switch, and I think I need a SPST switch - is that correct? Can any one suggest a switch that will do the job?
Thanks in advace

[Matt Day]

I might have jumped the gun on posting this question before researching thoroughly. Just found some great videos by Jack Forsberg where he describes motor controls and switches. Looks like I have a momentary switch and need a maintain switch. I'll keep researching but please make any suggestions.

[Bill Space]

The fact that you verified that the switch works in your application when you hold the green start button down, indicates that indeed it is a normally open contact that remains closed only while it is pushed.

This is standard for normal industrial start-stop circuits. The red button will be just the opposite. It will be a normally closed contact that is opened when you push it.

To use this paddle style switch you will need to employ an interposing relay. The wiring hookup is standard. I cannot draw it here but in words, what happens is you wire things so that when you push the green button it energies a relay, and a contact of that relay closes across the green button contacts, and the relay keeps itself energized. The red button is connected in series with the relay coil, and when it is pushed the relay is de-energized, and then waits for someone to push the green button again.

In the meantime, in your application a contact of the relay would be used to energize something, in this case it would be the input point of your VFD which tells the VFD to start.

Not difficult to accomplish with a relay. Not sure if you can make this happen with your VFD without a relay, unless it would have separate start & stop inputs...which is possible but I am not sure how likely...

Bill

[Terry Therneau]

You can use that switch with any VFD that I have ever seen. We'll assume that you have the manual. The VFD will have 2 or 3 modes: 2 wire mode is what you used with the light switch. The second mode is 3 wire: three terminals on the VFD, call them A B and C are such that momentary contact of A to B starts the motor (if it is off), and the motor will stay on as long as A and C are connected. The switch has a momentary normally open contact (A to B) and a normally closed contact for A to C. The third wiring type is when the VFD is connected to more sophisticated electronic controls like in a commercial HVAC system.

The three wire approach is preferred for something like a saw. Say that power went out while you were running it or a fuse blew. With the 2 wire system, if you forget to turn off the switch then the saw will start up on its own when power is restored. With the 3 wire it won't, which is much safer. You won't find 2 wire in a commercial shop.

I have my dust collector on a VFD using the 2 wire approach, with multiple light switches around the shop. The switches are set up exactly the same as a multiple switches for a light. I can turn the dust collector on or off from any of them, which is very handy. I used some leftover phone wire (the red/green/blue/black stuff found in old houses). But like I said, this is not the preferred way to run something that has a blade.

Terry T.

[Terry Therneau]

I just looked at the Amazon link you posted. It certainly doesn't sound like a momentary contact switch....

[Don Sundberg]

So D4160 is actually written on the switch?

According to the manual it appears it should operate like a light switch.

http://cdn2.grizzly.com/manuals/d4160_m.pdf

I have a couple of switches on starter equipped machines that I would like to have the switch you have but the manual leads me to believe you were sent the wrong thing. If you can make these switches work you will have a safer machine. I am very curious what is actually written on the switches.

[mreza Salav]

That is a magnetic switch and for 120V (not the 12V control signals of your VFD).

[Mike Heidrick]

That is a magnetic switch and for 120V (not the 12V control signals of your VFD).

Guessing it is not a mag switch but just a pair of momentary switches typically used with a contactor. Its rating wont matter for your 12V setup as it is rated more than enough for what you need it for.

If that case you need to wire a couple contacts from your VFD's with one of these switches and use the 12V on the vfd. Don't for get to program the VFD and tell it to start from a terminal and that the output is used for operating the VFD. Here is a quick google example of a fm50 vfd wired to a momentary NO/NC switch.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/3wireVFD.jpg

[Matt Day]

Thanks Mike, that helps a lot. I think I can make this work. Attached are pics of my VFD and switch FYI.

http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a596/mld1129/PM65/IMG_9770_zpstkg4qwdz.jpg (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/mld1129/media/PM65/IMG_9770_zpstkg4qwdz.jpg.html)
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a596/mld1129/PM65/IMG_9773_zps1vubxnxc.jpg (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/mld1129/media/PM65/IMG_9773_zps1vubxnxc.jpg.html)
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a596/mld1129/PM65/IMG_9774_zpsnxvjpkch.jpg (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/mld1129/media/PM65/IMG_9774_zpsnxvjpkch.jpg.html)
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a596/mld1129/PM65/IMG_9771_zps03vjdenp.jpg (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/mld1129/media/PM65/IMG_9771_zps03vjdenp.jpg.html)
http://i1285.photobucket.com/albums/a596/mld1129/PM65/IMG_9772_zpse3xlw9un.jpg (http://s1285.photobucket.com/user/mld1129/media/PM65/IMG_9772_zpse3xlw9un.jpg.html)

[mreza Salav]

the description of the product says a "magnetic switch", which means it has coils that are to be energized to keep the contact; they might not work with the 12V as the are rated for 120V, hence the coils do not hold in the "On".

[jack forsberg]

I have a VFD on my bandsaw, and am currently using a standard household switch to turn it on and off. The VFD uses a simple 12V signal for the remote ON/OFF. I'd like to upgrade that one to a paddle style switch (the big red paddle that's easier to hit ICE), and also use one on my table saw that has a VFD. I ordered 2 of these but they don't work:
http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-D4160-110-Volt-Paddle-Switch/dp/B005W17HYY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1457380869&sr=8-2&keywords=paddle+switch
It only works if the on button is held down. My understanding is that it's a DPST switch, and I think I need a SPST switch - is that correct? Can any one suggest a switch that will do the job?
Thanks in advace


you will need 120 volts for that switch either from the common/white and one hot or a control voltage transformer 240 to 120 then a relay to switch the VFD control side.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PC-NEW-10A-Omron-MK2P-I-Cube-Relays-110-120V-AC-Coil-with-PF083A-Socket-Base-/281925425943


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Square-D-9070-K150D1-Control-Transformer-150-KVA-240-480V-to-120V-/391330446967?hash=item5b1d1cbe77:g:WeQAAOSw8-tWWMzK

your switch would switch the coil 2 and 7 on the relay and 8 and 6 or 1 and 3 would switch the VDF in 2 wire control.
http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5CMAAOSwa-dWm-hD/s-l1600.jpg

[Matt Day]

I tried wiring the switch as Mike suggested and got nothing.

would this work like a light switch (2 wire)?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00548585A?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_3&smid=AO2R8RP2MLB3M

[Larry Komroff]

This switch http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-D4151-220-Volt-Paddle-Switch/dp/B005W17FRS/ref=pd_sim_60_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=41oo%2BSPeL2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR120%2C160_&refRID=1W9G0061RQ7QB67E5RE8 (http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-D4151-220-Volt-Paddle-Switch/dp/B005W17FRS/ref=pd_sim_60_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=41oo%2BSPeL2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR120%2C160_&refRID=1W9G0061RQ7QB67E5RE8)should do the trick if you want the paddle style. It is not magnetic

[Matt Day]

I do want the paddle, thanks for the suggestion!

[Trevor Howard]

To add to Terry and Mike.
You will need to find the parameter on the VFD which selects the mode, 2 wire or 3 wire.
Mike's wiring will not work if you do not have 3 wire set in the parameters.
I cannot make out the model of your VFD from the picture

[jack forsberg]

This switch http://www.amazon.com/Woodstock-D4151-220-Volt-Paddle-Switch/dp/B005W17FRS/ref=pd_sim_60_4?ie=UTF8&dpID=41oo%2BSPeL2L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR120%2C160_&refRID=1W9G0061RQ7QB67E5RE8should do the trick if you want the paddle style. It is not magnetic
It is magnetic but there are ones that aren't this one is magnetic. Matt if you would like to use the control switch which is A lockout safety switch you just posted then I would suggest that you Use the contacts normally NC in 2 wire . By the way there is no parameter for two wire or three wire only external control function. The switch will then function as the stop when push In and run when pulled out, it would operate opposite on the other contact normally open. If you'd like to use the paddle switch I've shown you on my post what you need to do that .

[Larry Komroff]

Jack, I suggest you check out http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3732
(http://lumberjocks.com/reviews/3732)It shows the 4151 is not magnetic and the 4160 is. Magnetic is also briefly mentioned in the 4160 instructions. The Amazon reviews also show the 4151 is not magnetic.


Larry

[Matt Day]

Jack, I appreciate your information. I do believe Larry is correct, that the D4151 is not magnetic but instead mechanical. I would however need to use a 3 wire setup which might not work with my VFD, and it looks like I'd loose motor breaking (not a huge deal but not waiting for the blade to coast to a stop would be nice).

I'm going to go with the lockout safety switch. I'll update when i get the switch installed, and hopefully working.

[Larry Komroff]

Matt,

I have a VFD on my drill press. I have the start/stop wired to a foot switch. I have braking when I let off the switch. Not sure on your programming or hookup but mine is shown in the picture with a switch connected between D11 and DCM.
333481

[jack forsberg]

Matt you will lose breaking with three wire control but if you use a relay like I showed you can have three were control while switching to work control but I understand that your switches in the traditionally since is not a magnetic switch but it does have a latching relay which does have a coil which behaves the same as a magnetic switch and in general terms it is not a manual to wire switch. I assume you're using the out of date FM 50 which will only work with normally open start and stop switches or maintain on off switches . Larry stigmatic shows maintain switches for control

[Matt Day]

Just to close the loop on this, I ordered one of these switches and it works nicely.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008LT2VH2/ref=yo_ii_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Too bad it is an ugly orange/yellow color, but nothing some spray paint won't fix.

Now to figure out what to do with two D4160's....