10 deg fleam 25 deg rake

[lowell holmes]

I recently made a post about a saw that I put a new handle on and sharpened it cross cut using 12 degrees fleam and rake. The saw is sharp and cuts fast, but is not cutting to suit me.

I decided to check the the rake and fleam on other crosscut saws that I own.

The first is a LN carcass saw sharpened crosscut. The other is an old Disston 4. I was surprised that they both have the same rake and fleam.
I was almost stunned, they are sharpened at 10 degrees fleam and 25 degrees rake. They both are well behaved saws.

How does this sit with how your cross cut saws are sharpened?

For what it's worth, the Disston, like the one shown here, is probably 60 years old. I bought it as new old stock about 10 years ago. When I received it, the saw plate would oil can. I was able to put it in a vise and tension the saw plate which solved the issue. I learned about doing that on this forum. I'm pretty sure the tip came from George.:)


http://test.ontarioantiquetools.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/IMG_0171.jpg

[Tom M King]

Are you sure you don't have the 10 fleam and 25 rake stated in reverse? 10 fleam sounds rough, and 25 rake sounds slow. How many TPI?

[lowell holmes]

Are you sure you don't have the 10 fleam and 25 rake stated in reverse? 10 fleam sounds rough, and 25 rake sounds slow. How many TPI?

http://www.blackburntools.com/articles/practical-cross-cut-saw-angles/index.html

Checking the site above, fleam is the horizontal angle of the trailing edge of the tooth and rake is the vertical angle of the trailing edge.

The tooth count is 14 tpi on all three saws.

[Tom M King]

I don't understand using "horizontal angle of the trailing edge", or "vertical angle of trailing edge". Fleam is the angle of the cutting face off perpendicular to the length of the plate, and rake is the angle of the cutting edge relative to vertical. (I'm sure I didn't explain that clearly) I asked about the tpi since sharp is more important than geometry as teeth get smaller, but at 14, the geometry matters.

copied and pasted from your link: " Fleam (sometimes called bevel) is the angle that the front of the tooth makes with a line drawn perpendicular to the plane of the saw plate"

"Rake is the angle that the front of the tooth makes with a line drawn perpendicular to the point line, and lying in the plane of the saw"

The way I've always heard it stated, when talking about saw tooth geometry, it goes in the order of rake and fleam. In other words, when talking about a crosscut saw, it would be said that it's "15 and 25" (as an example). It would be taken for granted that the first number was rake, and the second number fleam. I never heard anyone say, " it has 15 degrees rake, and 25 degrees fleam". It would have simply been said, "it's 15 and 25".

[Steve Voigt]

I am sure you are right Tom. For one, I always describe tooth geometry the way you said, rake first, fleam second. For two, I can't imagine cutting with 25 degrees rake. Speed starts to nosedive almost exponentially when the rake gets much below 10, in my experience.

[Patrick Chase]

I am sure you are right Tom. For one, I always describe tooth geometry the way you said, rake first, fleam second. For two, I can't imagine cutting with 25 degrees rake. Speed starts to nosedive almost exponentially when the rake gets much below 10, in my experience.

I saw the initial post and decided not to comment, but FWIW I also find 25 deg rake to be rather surprising. Some reviewers have described that saw as having "relaxed rake", but usually that means 15 deg or thereabouts.

The teeth on Western saws have a total tip angle of 60 deg, so if the leading edge has 25 deg rake then that means the trailing edge has 35. In other words it's close to being a bidirectional saw (neither push nor pull) with symmetric peg teeth.

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Lowell.
I believe you misread Issac's site. Should be 10* rake and 25* fleam. The rake is fairly aggressive for a cross cut saw, but not a rip saw. The 25* fleam is pretty common on a cross cut saw. Especially for softer woods. I use it a lot. My rip saws very often have 8* to 10* rake. This makes them start easier without too much loss in aggressiveness given the hang angles I use. Think about it this way. If you hold a scraper in your hand and lean the top forward to scrape, you are mimicking the saw tooth rake. If you then skew the scraper to one side a little, the way you would a plane, you have introduced fleam to make the scraper slice better. FYI: Saw teeth are actually more like little scrapers than chisels. They lean forward at the top or Gullet as you are looking at the saw in the position of use. If you flip the saw upside down, they then appear to be leaning backwards. I am not sure who originally started referring to them as little chisels, but that's not correct with regard to back saws. Take a look at the bottom of the page. Hope this helps. http://www.bontzsawworks.net/ramblings/
(http://www.bontzsawworks.net/ramblings/)

[lowell holmes]

Looking at the saw in the saw vise, the teeth being pointed up, I laid a 4"xxs file in the gullet.

The horizontal angle the file made with the saw plate was 80 degrees.

The vertical angle the face of the tooth was 25 degrees from vertical.

It's all a matter of semantics.

The real purpose of my post was to observe that the Lie Nielsen and the old Disston saw had the same tooth geometry.

Can you guess what my home sharpened crosscut saws will have? :)

Why don't some of you make the same comparisons?

Also, I have the Lee Valley saw file holder. The angles I posted were read from the holder. I did not estimate the geometry.

[Kees Heiden]

Looks like it is time for a picture!

(But it ain't too easy to photograph small saw teeth).

[lowell holmes]

This is what I call fleam.333198

[Kees Heiden]

Yes, that's fleam. Now I really would like to see those LN and Disston teeth!

[Tom M King]

I usually like less rake rather than more, so I've never had a saw in my hand with that much rake. As for fleam on a crosscut saw, I've tried, used, and liked sometimes, a bit less fleam than the commonly used 25, but never anything that approached 10 degrees. So those saws would be totally new territory for me. I would be willing to bet money that I wouldn't like them at that geometry.

[Stewie Simpson]

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html

Rip Tooth Geometry

Rip Teeth, like crosscut teeth are perfect 60 degree angles. However, unlike crosscut teeth, rip teeth have a very steep rake angle, from 0 to 8 degrees. In the beginning of modern hand saw production, all rip saws had teeth with a zero degree rake. Saws with a zero degree rake (tooth edge perpendicular to the edge of the blade) are very aggressive and quick cutting. However, they are challenging to start a cut if you are not an accomplished sawyer. In the early part of the 20th century, most of the saw makers began to relax the rake angle on their rip saws to make them easier to start. Disston choose an 8 degree rake angle as the best compromise between ease of starting the cut and aggressiveness of cut. Since rip teeth are large and easy to file, I recommend that unless you are experienced, you start with a rake closer to 8 degrees, and gradually reduce it until you find the best compromise between ease of cut and speed of cut. I strike a compromise and file most of my rip teeth at 4 degrees, finding it the most comfortable for me.


Cross Cut Tooth Geometry
Crosscut teeth are by far the most complex of the two types of saw teeth. Crosscut teeth can be found in sizes from 5-16 points per inch (ppi) with 7-10 being the most common. If you look at the diagrams to the right, you will see that each crosscut tooth is a perfect 60 degree angle. It is no accident that all saw filing files are 60 degrees as well. There are several angles that you will have to keep in mind when thinking about crosscut teeth. The first is the rake angle. By rake, I am describing how much the cutting edge of the saw tooth is sloped back from perpendicular. The most common rake angle is 15 degrees. In general, the steeper the rake angle, the more aggressive the saw will cut. However, saws with steeper rake angles are also more difficult to start. I find that anything from 12-15 degrees is best. I tend to file my saws closer to 12 degrees, as I have no lack of experience in getting a saw to start cutting. If you are a beginner, you may find that a 15 degree rake is more comfortable. As you gain experience, experiment with different rake angles until you find one that you prefer.


Practical Fleam Angles

Like anything, there are some compromises which determine what fleam angle to use. For general use, 20 degrees is best. The higher the fleam angle, the more delicate the edge of the saw tooth will be. The more delicate the saw tooth, the quicker it will dull. However, a steeper fleam angle, like 24 degrees, works great if you work primarily in soft woods free of knots. The cut will be very quick and the result smooth. For lower fleam angles, like 15 degrees, you will have an edge that is more durable, but producing a finish that is rougher. In addition, the saw will be slightly harder to push with a lower fleam angle. Finally, there is one practical consideration to keep in mind when considering fleam angle. Smaller teeth, 12 and up, are harder to file the higher the fleam angle. Since they are so small to start with, not much is gained by using a high fleam angle like 24 degrees. For ease in filing, I use a fleam angle of 15 degrees on the smaller teeth that I file.

[Patrick Chase]

Looking at the saw in the saw vise, the teeth being pointed up, I laid a 4"xxs file in the gullet.

The horizontal angle the file made with the saw plate was 80 degrees.

The vertical angle the face of the tooth was 25 degrees from vertical.

It's all a matter of semantics.

The real purpose of my post was to observe that the Lie Nielsen and the old Disston saw had the same tooth geometry.

Can you guess what my home sharpened crosscut saws will have? :)

Why don't some of you make the same comparisons?

Also, I have the Lee Valley saw file holder. The angles I posted were read from the holder. I did not estimate the geometry.

Is it possible your file was warped? I've seen some Grobets in particular with upwards of 10 deg of twist from tip (where the guide clamps) to midpoint, and that would easily explain what you're seeing. If that's what's happening it's fairly easy to correct by only using the section of the file immediately adjacent to the guide when measuring.

Also, did you orient the file at 90 deg to the sawplate when measuring, or did you allow it to simultaneously follow the fleam? You'll get slightly different measurements each way. The second will tell you what settings the last person to sharpen it used, as that's how the last filing pass is done.

If you have a macro lens can you just take a picture of a short section (<=1") of the toothline from the side? Rake in particular is very easy to measure that way. Fleam is harder as it requires a shot from directly above with more creative lighting.

25 deg of rake is incredible in the most literal sense of the word.

[Stewie Simpson]

It should be noted that I am not advocating the use of fleam on backsaws up to 0.025 gauge saw plate.

Stewie;

[Doug Bowman]

Stewie,
what angles would you recommend for a crosscut hand saw that can be dedicated to finishing cuts in very dry hard woods

[Patrick Chase]

Stewie,
what angles would you recommend for a crosscut hand saw that can be dedicated to finishing cuts in very dry hard woods

While I wouldn't presume to give direct advice here (Stewie is far more knowledgeable) I suspect that some information about application (dovetail vs carcase vs tenon), your preferences, and your experience as a sawyer might be helpful.

See in particular Pete Taran's (a.k.a. "vintagesaws") advice about rake angles, which Stewie quoted in a previous post.

I'm relatively inexperienced (compared to Stewie, George, etc), so I run ~8 deg rake on my rip saws and 12-15 deg on my crosscuts, though I also have a couple saws filed hybrid with 10 rake / 10 fleam. I also have started playing with progressive rake (relaxed in the toe, aggressive in the mid/heel). To be honest I have trouble starting a zero-rake ripsaw, though I know more experienced sawyers who love that configuration.

[steven c newman]

6 ppi 1-2 degree of rake, just enough set to work...
333253
Disston D-23
I have a D-23 8ppi you can practize on...

[Doug Bowman]

While I wouldn't presume to give direct advice here (Stewie is far more knowledgeable) I suspect that some information about application (dovetail vs carcase vs tenon), your preferences, and your experience as a sawyer might be helpful.

See in particular Pete Taran's (a.k.a. "vintagesaws") advice about rake angles, which Stewie quoted in a previous post.

I'm relatively inexperienced (compared to Stewie, George, etc), so I run ~8 deg rake on my rip saws and 12-15 deg on my crosscuts, though I also have a couple saws filed hybrid with 10 rake / 10 fleam. I also have started playing with progressive rake (relaxed in the toe, aggressive in the mid/heel). To be honest I have trouble starting a zero-rake ripsaw, though I know more experienced sawyers who love that configuration.

i am a moderately experienced sawyer - I have relatively successfully sharpened 5 saws - although I have never had to add set to one yet. I have a bishop hand saw 26" 8 ppi I would like to setup for very clean cross cuts in hardwood

[lowell holmes]

Is it possible your file was warped? I've seen some Grobets in particular with upwards of 10 deg of twist from tip (where the guide clamps) to midpoint, and that would easily explain what you're seeing. If that's what's happening it's fairly easy to correct by only using the section of the file immediately adjacent to the guide when measuring.

Also, did you orient the file at 90 deg to the sawplate when measuring, or did you allow it to simultaneously follow the fleam? You'll get slightly different measurements each way. The second will tell you what settings the last person to sharpen it used, as that's how the last filing pass is done.

If you have a macro lens can you just take a picture of a short section (<=1") of the toothline from the side? Rake in particular is very easy to measure that way. Fleam is harder as it requires a shot from directly above with more creative lighting.

25 deg of rake is incredible in the most literal sense of the word.


I understand your thoughts. However, if you just look at at the teeth on a Lie Nielsen saw, you see without measuring that the rake is excessive.
I have the Lee Valley saw file holder. I obtained the angles I reported with the holder. I am not trying to create controversy, just report what I observed.
I don't need a macro lens observe the rake. I've been drafting long enough to visually know 25 degrees is more than 12 degrees. That's why I checked.
I'm not preaching heresy :).

If you have a Lie Nielsen saw, make your own observation. If you don't have a Lie Nielsen saw, I recommend it, it is a pleasure to use. FWIW, the saw was returned to Lie Nielsen for sharpening and it is possible the geometry was changed when it was sharpened. However, the geometry on the Disston 4 is almost identical.

No, my files are not warped.

[Ron Bontz]

I understand your thoughts. However, if you just look at at the teeth on a Lie Nielsen saw, you see without measuring that the rake is excessive.
I have the Lee Valley saw file holder. I obtained the angles I reported with the holder. I am not trying to create controversy, just report what I observed.
I don't need a macro lens observe the rake. I've been drafting long enough to visually know 25 degrees is more than 12 degrees. That's why I checked.
I'm not preaching heresy :).

If you have a Lie Nielsen saw, make your own observation. If you don't have a Lie Nielsen saw, I recommend it, it is a pleasure to use. FWIW, the saw was returned to Lie Nielsen for sharpening and it is possible the geometry was changed when it was sharpened. However, the geometry on the Disston 4 is almost identical.

No, my files are not warped.

A simple solution or rather answer would be to ask Lie Nielsen what the rake and fleam of the saws are sharpened at. Surely they would know. I have owned one and sharpened a couple. Not to mention some of those D4s. Otherwise, who cares. As long as it cuts well for you. :) Take care.

[Jim Koepke]

I understand your thoughts. However, if you just look at at the teeth on a Lie Nielsen saw, you see without measuring that the rake is excessive.

A crosscut saw slices as it cuts. 25º rake is a bit 'over relaxed' but it would likely still cut.

I am not sure what a rip saw would do with such a relaxed rake.

I have not been responding in this thread until know.

How about venturing back to the OP's original question?


How does this sit with how your cross cut saws are sharpened?

It is quite different. Most of the crosscut saw of mine have been filed to ~15º rake with 20-25º fleam. Most of my work is in softwood.

One of my back saws was filed at 13ppi - 5º - 5º fleam. It works fine in cross cuts and rips.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?180712-Back-Saw-Build

My advice to anyone who is interested in such is to find old junk saws, start filing until you find the magic combination that works for your way of handling a saw.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

I understand your thoughts. However, if you just look at at the teeth on a Lie Nielsen saw, you see without measuring that the rake is excessive.
I have the Lee Valley saw file holder. I obtained the angles I reported with the holder. I am not trying to create controversy, just report what I observed.
I don't need a macro lens observe the rake. I've been drafting long enough to visually know 25 degrees is more than 12 degrees. That's why I checked.
I'm not preaching heresy :).

If you have a Lie Nielsen saw, make your own observation. If you don't have a Lie Nielsen saw, I recommend it, it is a pleasure to use. FWIW, the saw was returned to Lie Nielsen for sharpening and it is possible the geometry was changed when it was sharpened. However, the geometry on the Disston 4 is almost identical.

No, my files are not warped.

I looked before I posted - I can't find any pictures of the L-N crosscut carcass saw that are both at sufficient magnification and taken at the right angle to accurately judge rake. That's why I asked if you could take one - ideally we'd want a picture of ~1" of the toothline.

[Patrick Chase]

A crosscut saw slices as it cuts. 25º rake is a bit 'over relaxed' but it would likely still cut.

Ordinarily that would be true, but Lowell *also* reported 10 deg fleam, which is low enough that the saw would not be taking a primarily slicing cut. There's a good reason why many sources recommend increasing rake and fleam in tandem when filing crosscut...

[lowell holmes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLzbTOPn5d8

Watch the video. You can tell a lot about the geometry of the teeth. Deneb said 15 degrees of fleam was appropriate.

[Patrick Chase]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLzbTOPn5d8

Watch the video. You can tell a lot about the geometry of the teeth. Deneb said 15 degrees of fleam was appropriate.

First off, that isn't Deneb. I could tell that by voice alone, with the video running in a hidden window. He's somewhat famous...

Second, I *have* watched it, several times. The thing that a few people have tried to explain and that you're missing is that "usable" fleam values depend on rake, and he unfortunately doesn't tell us what rake angle he's using. You'll often see them vary almost exactly in tandem, for example:

- Mark Harrell's "rip" toothing is 5 rake, 5 fleam

- Mark Harrell's "hybrid" toothing is 10 rake, 12.5 fleam

- Pete Taran recommends 12-15 rake, 15 fleam

- Veritas' "crosscut" toothing is 15 rake, 15 fleam

- Mark Harrell's "crosscut" toothing is 15 rake, 20 fleam, though he also recommends 15-17 rake, 15-17 fleam for "fully seasoned hardwoods"

- Several sources recommend 20 rake, 20 fleam crosscut toothings for softer woods

It's also possible to combine low rake and higher fleam, for example I'm experimenting with a 5/10 hybrid filing right now (though I'll probably go back to 10/10).

The one thing you do not see from ANY of these sources is a high-rake, low-fleam combination like your "25/10", for good reason. With the rake that high you also need high fleam to make the saw "slice" as Jim described. That's why a bunch of people thought you'd reversed your numbers. 10/25 is merely unconventional. 25/10 is unusable.

[lowell holmes]

I never intended to cause such angst. I'm sorry I posted my findings. I remind you, the filings that don't work are taken from my saw.

I found out today that they use 15 rake and 15 fleam on their crosscut and 15 rake and 0 fleam on their rip saws.

[Patrick Chase]

I never intended to cause such angst. I'm sorry I posted my findings. I remind you, the filings that don't work are taken from my saw.

I found out today that they use 15 rake and 15 fleam on their crosscut and 15 rake and 0 fleam on their rip saws.

Intresting. That means L-N's filings are almost identical to LV's (15-15 and 14-0 respectively). Both are on the relaxed side (high rake) of my current tastes. Thank you very much for getting that.

Sorry about the angst as well - it's easy to get carried away on forums.

[Tom M King]

I guess 15 fleam on a crosscut would last longer, and 15 rake on a rip would be easier to start. Both make sense for a company trying to satisfy customers...not to my personal taste though.

[Jim Davis]

Well, I'm glad things have settled down here a little. In the heyday of handsaws, The goal with finding the best rake angle was to use the angle that made the saw cut under the weight of the plate--no down pressure by the user. Disston, Atkins and Simonds found that ange to be 15° for crosscut saws and IIRC, 8° for rip saws.

The recommended fleam for all-around work was 25°, more or less for hard or soft woods.

Please consider, there were several millions of carpenters and cabinet makers using hand saws during that time. Today we have an exponentially smaller number of handsaw users, many of whom are rank beginners.

I see no value in makers or users deciding those millions of handsaw users of the past were being duped by the factories.

15° and 25° work for me.

[Phil Mueller]

That's interesting. The email response I received from LN, was 8* rake on all rip saws.

[Ron Bontz]

+1. "As long as it cuts well for you. " :)
By the way: I do hope you were not referring to me when you made that statement. "I see no value in makers or users deciding those millions of handsaw users of the past were being duped by the factories."
Never have, never will. End of story.

[Patrick Chase]

That's interesting. The email response I received from LN, was 8* rake on all rip saws.

Yeah, I was a little surprised by that as well. I'd always thought that L-N used a more aggressive rip filing than Veritas (14 deg).

[Jim Davis]

+1. "As long as it cuts well for you. " :) By the way: I do hope you were not referring to me when you made that statement. "I see no value in makers or users deciding those millions of handsaw users of the past were being duped by the factories." Never have, never will. End of story. Nope. Not referring to anybody, just the general gist of the whole thread.