Dovetail cutting. Tools for improving results.

[Gene Davis]

I've been doing OK with a cheap pullsaw, a $15 Shark 10-2204 Dowel/Dovetail/Detail Saw.

To step things up a notch, I was considering a spine-backed saw and one of the magnetic guides.
On Jay Bates's YouTube channel, he shows dovetail cutting using a dozuki saw like the one I show here from Lee Valley. About $40 including tax and shipping. He is using the David Barron magnetic guide, about $60 delivered. So, $100 for this setup.

Then there is the Lee Valley combo set, saw and guide, that I show in a second pic. The saw is not backed, but the description of the setup seems to say a backed saw will not work with the guide. This setup will run me about $70.

I know there are more expensive options here for doing this, but I am a cheap guy. What do you think?

[Jim Koepke]

To me it looks like training wheels on a bicycle. Once you can move along without them they will not do as much to improve your work as will practicing with what you already have.

The other aspect keeping me skeptical is these would need to be moved with each cut. Then when you have the first half done, will they work for making the second half of the joint's cuts?

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

To me it looks like training wheels on a bicycle. Once you can move along without them they will not do as much to improve your work as will practicing with what you already have.

The other aspect keeping me skeptical is these would need to be moved with each cut. Then when you have the first half done, will they work for making the second half of the joint's cuts?
jtk

Yes, they'll work for the second half. You just need to rotate them so that the angled part is on the top instead of the face (or vice versa if you're one of those "pins first" degenerates).

I think your broader point is right, though: You'll never learn to cut accurate joinery if you rely on those.

[Tom M King]

I don't think there's a real shortcut to skipping the practice required to develop the skill. It's one of those things that's easy once you know how. You might remember learning to ride a bicycle.

[justin sherriff]

I just made myself a guide all I did was glue up 2 pieces of wood at 90 degrees. then on the table saw cut a 10 degree angle on each side. drilled a 1/2 in hole and epoxied in 2 earth magnets in just like the David Barrons.

magnets I used. I put 2 magnets in each hole they are much stronger being 2 deep.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/161799887597?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

here is a nice guide on making on like Bavid Darrons
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=1458

I used a Veritas carcass saw and it worked good for me.

[Mike Henderson]

You do not need a guide to cut dovetails with a saw of any kind. You can learn to saw straight without any of those aids.

But in the meanwhile, you can cut close to the line, then trim to the line with a chisel. There are tools you can use to check that your tail (or pin) is straight in the places where it should be straight.

Mike

[justin sherriff]

here is a pic of what I made. It is a big help for me I am just learning how to use a hand saw.
Use it so start and you can pull it away or keep it in place to finish the cut. make one to see if you really like it or not.

[Gene Davis]

OK, I can buy into not needing the guide. I have done fine without one so far.

But the saw seems lacking. The $15 Shark Saw pull-stroke has flex to its unbacked blade. Might I do a whole lot better with that $35 dozuki I show in the first post?

[Tony Wilkins]

Probably better with a straight saw yes. I'd go with a 210mm ryoba from stu at tools from Japan though, or a 170mm 'craft' kataba.

[Tom M King]

Good tools make the work easier. Not many could ever get good results with a Shark Saw.

[Jeffrey Martel]

I have one of David Barron's guides. You can get them at highland woodworking now. I had to order them directly from him when I got it last year. I can say that it helps quite a bit. I use a Lee valley molded spine dovetail saw on it. I can't cut full depth with it in 3/4" stock, but it gets you most of the way there, and then the kerf will keep the saw straight for the last 1/4" or so in 3/4" stock. It's definitely made them way easier than cutting without.

[Curt Putnam]

There are at least two parts to good dovetails: sawing and chiseling. Both parts take practice. I've got many a scrap piece that have accumulated well over a 1000 and more probably 2000 practice cut lines. Get your backsaw and start practicing. Just use a saddle square and mark lines down both sides and start cutting. Once you are happy with how straight you are sawing, then start making a dovetail or two a day. That will continue to improve the sawing and really help with the chisel skills. JMO

[Denny Tudor]

Or you could make a Paul sellers dove tail guide out of scrap pwood , buy a $8.97 Stanley hack saw at walmart and $1.99 14 tpi blade at menards and have at it fir under $12 tax included. Not sure the wood knows the difference.

[Patrick Chase]

There are at least two parts to good dovetails: sawing and chiseling. Both parts take practice. I've got many a scrap piece that have accumulated well over a 1000 and more probably 2000 practice cut lines.

IMO what Curt says here is the key.

I once spent the better part of 2 months going out to the shop every night after work and doing nothing but the 8 basic dovetail cuts (left/right through tail, left/right through pin, left/right blind tail, left/right blind pin) over and over and over and over until I could reliably cut along my knife lines. Those were some seriously boring nights of course.

As I tried to suggest above, there is more to saw-cut joinery than dovetails, and using dovetail guides doesn't develop the sort of foundational skills that you'll need in order to execute other joints. You'll be better off in the long run if you build those basic skills instead of cutting corners (pun intended).

[Derek Cohen]

There are a couple of tools I recommend for dovetails.

The first is a decent saw. If you are looking for an inexpensive Japanese saw, get a Z-saw. They are superb.

The second is a knife to transfer lines. I saw the tails first, and the knife is used to mark the pins. A slim-bladed knife is essential is cutting narrow dovetails, but when you are starting out with wider tails, you can use any single bevel knife. A single bevel will register more easily.

The most important saw cut is the square line at the top of the line when sawing tails. I always scrape this a little deeper with a Glen Drake Kerf Starter.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape_html_m6c2ef2a.jpg



My eyesight is not what it used to be. Seeing fine transfer lines in, especially, dark woods is difficult. I developed the use of Blue Tape a couple of years ago. This makes is easier to see the lines to which you cut.

Article: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/HalfBlindDovetailswithBlueTape.html

Dovetail markers and a decent set of dividers are part of my standard equipment for dovetailing. The markers I made, and the dividers I have are by Starrett.

Lastly, make a Moxon Vise. It makes it easier to hold the boards to mark, transfer marks, and to saw.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Joints/Dovetailing%20aids/dovetailing-rest1a_zpsflhq4uxp.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert Engel]

For year and years I used nothing more than a $15 Gents saw to do DT's.
They can be tuned up to work quite well.

You have to take the set out of the teeth. 1. Reduce kerf to 6-7 thou over back thickness (3-4 each side)and 2. resharpen it.
I saw Frank Klausz do this in a video and picked up one from WC and tried it myself. Workable results.

[Pat Barry]

I see nothing wrong with using a guide if that helps you get your projects completed because, to most hobbyists, it's making things that matters most, not becoming, for example, a dovetail master. Now if your goal is mastering dovetails then you really need to commit to that, for example in the manner that Patrick outlined. It does sound that a better dovetail saw may be in order at some point but I don't think that is the most important issue now although good tools do noticeably improve results.

[Brian Holcombe]

I just lay a square on the table butted up against the back of the board and use it to eyeball. I like to taper my dovetails inward very very very slightly and the square is helpful for that.

I like the inexpensive mitsukawa saws.

[Patrick Chase]

My eyesight is not what it used to be. Seeing fine transfer lines in, especially, dark woods is difficult. I developed the use of Blue Tape a couple of years ago. This makes is easier to see the lines to which you cut.

FWW has also published at last one article advocating the blue tape trick (Pekovich in April 2014).

The other standard advice is to use very bright raking light to make the knife-lines stand out. I have a bright and directional arm-mounted light that I move from one side of the work to the other as needed to "raise" knife-lines. It's hard to tell from your pictures what sort of lighting setup you use, because the flash on your camera obliterated all trace of the ambient lighting.

[Randy Karst]

Hi Derek, what is the thickness of the Kerf Starter that you use?

[Derek Cohen]

FWW has also published at last one article advocating the blue tape trick (Pekovich in April 2014).

The other standard advice is to use very bright raking light to make the knife-lines stand out. I have a bright and directional arm-mounted light that I move from one side of the work to the other as needed to "raise" knife-lines. It's hard to tell from your pictures what sort of lighting setup you use, because the flash on your camera obliterated all trace of the ambient lighting.

Hi Patrick

The lighting is not bad but not as good as alongside a window on a sunny day. I have overhead strip lighting as well as spot lights directed at the bench.

Even raking light does not easily show up fine lines for my eyes.

Another advantage to transfering dovetails using blue tape is that you only need to make a single marking stroke, as long as your knife is sharp. The blade will slice through the tape, which may then be peeled away. This is especially helpful with skinny tails. If one is forced to use several strokes directly on hardwood to leave an impression, the chances increase that the line will be blurry. (Incidentally, I published the tip on blue tape about three years ahead if FWW).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek, what is the thickness of the Kerf Starter that you use?

Randy, the kerf starter comes in different thicknesses. I have the 0.20" version, which is the most common backsaw plate thickness. This works just as well for a 0.18" plate.

I should add that my sawing is pretty good and this tool is not necessary. Nevertheless it gives me a little insurance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Curt Putnam]

Randy, the kerf starter comes in different thicknesses. I have the 0.20" version, which is the most common backsaw plate thickness. This works just as well for a 0.18" plate.

I should add that my sawing is pretty good and this tool is not necessary. Nevertheless it gives me a little insurance.

Regards from Perth
Derek


Derek, I am not replying to you ....:)

To the OP, I also have the 0.20" kerf starter. For me it still provides a lot of insurance. That size has worked for a 0.12" plate and helped with a handsaw start. It's a beautiful tool. I also bought Kevin's file/burnisher for it and it turns to be quite useful for a range of scrapers. The kerf starter is just a scraper with a blade width of 0.20". I also use Derek's blue tape trick.

[Randy Karst]

Derek, thanks that is what I wanted to know, I was concerned that the .025 would be too big. I admire your London style dovetails.

Curt, excellent; your information rounds it out for me. I haven't tried Derek's blue tape trick yet but plan to on my next build and the Kerf Starter seems like a good tip for taking things to the next level. I appreciate the recommendation of the file/burnisher and will order both together now that I know which size Kerf Starter to purchase.

[Patrick Chase]

I see nothing wrong with using a guide if that helps you get your projects completed because, to most hobbyists, it's making things that matters most, not becoming, for example, a dovetail master. Now if your goal is mastering dovetails then you really need to commit to that, for example in the manner that Patrick outlined. It does sound that a better dovetail saw may be in order at some point but I don't think that is the most important issue now although good tools do noticeably improve results.

I think Pat puts it pretty well, and agree with his bottom line.

[Adam Cruea]

Not sure what else can be said that hasn't been said here.

Make sure your dovetail boards are elevated; it'll help you saw straight and save your back. Learn how to saw straight, too (that just takes practice and a feel also).

Practice, practice, and practice again. If you really want headaches, dovetail pine. :p

If you're like some of us and have issues with seeing, you can use Derek's blue tape trick, or use normal .05 pencil to highlight the lines on light woods, silver pencils to highlight on super-dark woods.

When transferring from pin board to tail board, it may be beneficial to remove 1/32" or so, just enough to make a lip on the pin board to butt up against the tail board.

[Lenore Epstein]

I'm trying to figure out how the kerf starter is used--is the blade held parallel to the direction of travel, or across it? If across it, I'd assume it's important to maintain the shape of the 'tip' as well as the burr. And if it's parallel, why couldn't I use any well-squared scraper? Or am I missing the entire point here?

[Jim Koepke]

I'm trying to figure out how the kerf starter is used--is the blade held parallel to the direction of travel, or across it? If across it, I'd assume it's important to maintain the shape of the 'tip' as well as the burr. And if it's parallel, why couldn't I use any well-squared scraper? Or am I missing the entire point here?

Howdy Lenore,

I am guessing you are talking about the Glen Drake Toolworks Kerf Starter:

http://www.glen-drake.com/Kerf-Starters/

If this is the one, then it is pulled with the blade parallel to the direction of travel.

The tip is a burr similar to a scraper. It is on the narrow width only. It is used like a knife against a guide like a bevel gauge or a dovetail marker. Instead of leaving a thin line, it leaves a kerf to match the user's dovetail saw at 0.020, 0.025 or 0.030".

For me it seemed like there is a lot of set up with feeler gauges and such to make the Kerf Starter work when marking from pins to tails or tails to pins.

It is also helpful for other marking chores. For a while I even considered making one. After not having one, my sawing skill improved to a point of not needing a pre-formed kerf.

Now when an accurate saw cut is wanted the line is marked with a knife and the waste side of the cut is notched with a knife to leave a trench by the knifed side where it is easy to start a saw. This method doesn't work well with dovetails.

Some folks start dovetails by eye without marking anything whether they do pins first or tails first. The second piece is marked from the first and it all fits nicely when they are done. I look forward to someday when I am able to do this.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Derek, thanks that is what I wanted to know, I was concerned that the .025 would be too big. I admire your London style dovetails.

Curt, excellent; your information rounds it out for me. I haven't tried Derek's blue tape trick yet but plan to on my next build and the Kerf Starter seems like a good tip for taking things to the next level. I appreciate the recommendation of the file/burnisher and will order both together now that I know which size Kerf Starter to purchase.

w.r.t. the Kerf Starter you might want to take set into account when sizing. A 20 mil starter for a 20 mil sawplate means that the teeth will be overlapping one or both sides at the start of the cut.

[Derek Cohen]

For me it seemed like there is a lot of set up with feeler gauges and such to make the Kerf Starter work when marking from pins to tails or tails to pins.

I would only use one for the tails. One could also just score the line very deeply with a knife. It amounts to the same thing - guiding the saw to a square kerf at the top of the board. I could do either. It is just as easy to pick up the kerf starter to score the line(s) as it is to use a knife. The kerf starter just does it better.

It is important to recognise that this is a very small (albeit highly important) part of cutting dovetails. You still need to saw to a line, and lines that run at the diagonal. There will be no help with those. Nor is there any assistance in sawing the pins. For those that have not cut many dovetails, sawing practice is needed. I am fortunately at the stage where I automatically find vertical, or track a line. I generally hit 95% saw-to-saw with dovetails. This was not the case when starting out ... nor should it expect to be.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

w.r.t. the Kerf Starter you might want to take set into account when sizing. A 20 mil starter for a 20 mil sawplate means that the teeth will be overlapping one or both sides at the start of the cut.

Technically correct, however I would not be too concerned about the extra 0.025" (or less) each side of the kerf. It is more likely to be add to an easier fit and the "gap" (such that it is) be taken up with glue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lenore Epstein]

The tip is a burr similar to a scraper. It is on the narrow width only. It is used like a knife against a guide like a bevel gauge or a dovetail marker. Instead of leaving a thin line, it leaves a kerf to match the user's dovetail saw at 0.020, 0.025 or 0.030".

For me it seemed like there is a lot of set up with feeler gauges and such to make the Kerf Starter work when marking from pins to tails or tails to pins.

It is also helpful for other marking chores. For a while I even considered making one. After not having one, my sawing skill improved to a point of not needing a pre-formed kerf.Thanks, Jim. That explains the flat burnisher. I was really thinking about general marking because I have so much trouble seeing the knife line (and penciling it in only makes it less crisp).

My approach has been to improve my sawing skills to where I can make decent cuts without aids, so I practice almost every day trying to make vertical and square cuts on scraps using a marking knife to make reference lines. It wasn't until I moved all my swing arm lamps to my work area that I started to improve, probably because my wimpy eyes could finally see the lines and the board's reflection on the saw plate at the same time. Now if I can only learn to keep myself from trying to control the saw...

So I'll bookmark that Kerf Starter for future reference, but I'll see how far I can get with better lighting before buying another gadget.

[Jim Koepke]

using a marking knife to make reference lines.

There have been occasional threads on marking. One thread was all about how using a red pencil would improve ones sawing accuracy.

A knife with a thin blade makes an almost imperceptible line. One of mine is made from a piece of old saw plate. It is my mostly used for transferring cut lines when cutting dovetails.

My other two marking knives are made from an old plane blade. They leave a clear line to follow. Often after marking the lines around a piece the knife is flipped bevel down and used to remove a slice of wood along the line to make a 'knifed wall' to help with sawing.


It wasn't until I moved all my swing arm lamps to my work area that I started to improve

I made a bench dog using a hollow auger. The scrap left at the end was drilled to fit the pin at the end of one of my swing arm lamps. I have another on a stand made with a crude tripod and a piece of pipe. Getting light were you want/need it is part of the job.


Now if I can only learn to keep myself from trying to control the saw...

That can be one of the difficult parts of learning to saw well and proper.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Technically correct, however I would not be too concerned about the extra 0.025" (or less) each side of the kerf. It is more likely to be add to an easier fit and the "gap" (such that it is) be taken up with glue.

Regards from Perth

Derek

It should be an extra 0.005-0.008 right? (for 2.5 mil/side to 4 mil/side set). EDIT: I see, you meant 0.0025" per side (note extra 0). Yep, that's right, though a lot of makers are going a hair higher than that with set these days. My Veritas dovetails measured 3.5 mils/side (vs stated nominal of 3) from the factory, and my Bad Axe sash with 25 mil plate measures ~4.5 mils/side (left that one as-is due to different reqts).

In any case it would be the other way around - if you have a wider precut kerf that's entirely on the waste side then that would bias the saw further into the waste, and the cut would spill over *less* into the tail/pin. If anything sizing the starter for the set would lead to tighter joints.

Finally, there are several other factors that go into determining joint tightness. In the end it all comes out in the wash with enough practice - everybody evolves cutting and marking practices to get to the right end point, even if there's a fair bit of variability in how they get there.

[Lenore Epstein]

My other two marking knives are made from an old plane blade. They leave a clear line to follow. Often after marking the lines around a piece the knife is flipped bevel down and used to remove a slice of wood along the line to make a 'knifed wall' to help with sawing.
I'll try the knifed wall, but I also like the plane blade idea. The mangled original blade that came with my no. 3 smoother (which I replaced with a Hock chipbeaker and blade) would work if I could cut it down without any particularly appropriate power tools.

eI made a bench dog using a hollow auger. The scrap left at the end was drilled to fit the pin at the end of one of my swing arm lamps. I have another on a stand made with a crude tripod and a piece of pipe. Getting light were you want/need it is part of the job.
Great idea, I'll read up on hollow augurs. My cheap Ikea architect's lamps are too short and lightweight for shop use, so I'll start looking for better ones that won't break the bank, and think about how to improve the overhead light. Maybe i can attach something to the pole from my old defunct torchier...

I found the no-control idea somewhere in The Schwarz's ramblings. IMO, the fact that seeing the line and the reflection changes the outcome even though I make no effort to follow them is testament to the power of the unconscious mind.

[Jim Koepke]

Home Depot has T-8 four foot fluorescent fixtures. My recollection is they are sold without the lamps. Home Depot also has four foot direct replacement LED lamps. I am not sure if the prices will be the same in all location, but my recollection is currently the whole deal could be had for $50-$60.

It is a plug in fixture and has a pull chain switch.

I think Costco has a fixture with LED lights. I was going to get one of those, but they were sold out when I needed some fixtures.

Other retailers who carry lighting will likely have other options.

jtk

[Edwin Santos]

If you have cordless tools from any of the major manufacturers, chances are they have a portable worklight that is an accessory in their ecosystem.

I recently bought the Makita LED worklight which is compatible with the batteries for my existing drills. I didn't buy it with dovetailing in mind but it has been a great add when doing so because I can move it about and the head articulates in any direction so you can throw directional light as you please. This is especially useful for vertical paring with the tail or pin board in the vise and you need to pare inside the socket baselines and corners. If you cut narrow pins, it's a real benefit to get light into the sockets for clean-out.

You might find lots of other uses for such a light if you ever work in the attic or any other dark place.

BTW, I see nothing wrong with the guides like DB's. If you're finding enjoyment and satisfaction in whatever means and methods you use, and you're happy with the finished work, that's your prerogative. David Barron recommends the Gyokucho 372 saw which is a very good recommendation. You can find it on Amazon, and it's a good value. I've never used a kerf starter so can't comment. You can wade into the shallow end of the pool and work your way toward the decision to buy more stuff in the pursuit of dovetailing as you see fit. I started out with inexpensive Marples blue chisels, a swiss army knife for marking and a $5 Zona saw. Hope this is helpful,

[lowell holmes]

I learned to make dovetails at a Paul Sellers class at Homestead Heritage. He had a template we used. I came home and made one. I still use it 20 years later.

https://literaryworkshop.wordpress.com/2011/09/16/a-simple-shop-made-dovetail-marker/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYpWldwGHFY

[Graham Haydon]

If you no time to practice then the guide option could be for you. If you do have some time and some motivation then choose a decent saw, western or japan style. The Veritas is a good value option as is the Gyokucho 303 if cost is important. Then it's just practice!

358746

I made a firewood box a while ago, very simple affair with robust casework. I experimented with a gents style dovetail saw, dozuki, ryoba, tenon saw, hacksaw, panel saw and D8 thumb hole rip. They all worked! Although it was near impossible with the D8. My point being, any saw suited to small joinery work such as a tenon saw or dovetail saw should do the job.

I would hold off on a "kerf starter". It's a tool I've never felt a need for, nor worked with anyone who required one but clearly it has its uses for some people so I guess keep an open mind on it in the long term.

Derek, I'll mention to the guys in the shop that you developed the tape method. I've seen it done many times on hard to mark substrates in many different situations. I had assumed it was a logical workshop hack not a recent development.

[Derek Cohen]

......

I would hold off on a "kerf starter". It's a tool I've never felt a need for, nor worked with anyone who required one but clearly it has its uses for some people so I guess keep an open mind on it in the long term.

Derek, I'll mention to the guys in the shop that you developed the tape method. I've seen it done many times on hard to mark substrates in many different situations. I had assumed it was a logical workshop hack not a recent development.

Hi Graham

The Kerfstarter is one of those tools that does make it easier, but it is not necessary. If I was not gifted one, I would not be using it today. A knifed line would do much the same, just not as well.

With regard the blue tape, I doubt that there is much new under the sun. I said as much when I blogged about this some years ago now. As far as I can tell, I was the first to write about it. About 3 or so years after I posted my article and discussed it on the forums, FWW magazine published an article on blue tape and dovetails, and the author claimed to have "invented" the method.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Graham Haydon]

I'd likely be in the same boat, although it could be arrogance, stubbornness, scepticism, stingy (I like to thing of those as "experience" :) ) that would prevent me using one. On the rare time I need a start just a tiny notch with a chisel is enough.

Classic! I worked with a guy who though he had invented a variation of a mortise and tenon joint, if he were not my superior I would of ridiculed the claim. You present the information very well Derek, I'm naturally very wary of any claims of originality within woodworking. Let's hop the OP has enough to move his dovetailing forward.