Need some advice on a project - Entry Door

[Nick Lazz]

So here's the background: I am building an entry door for a commercial location, albeit rural. From the research I have done, I have started with a stave core type construction. My plan is to build the stave core out of MDO with fir veneer on both sides.
I plan on using a vacuum press for this process....

I didn't come up with this myself, this is from an article that I read. I chose the stave core because it is supposed to be more stable, and for this application I thought it would be appropriate.

My plan is to use the Excel 5 system. Anyone who has experience with this system or other vacuum systems please chime in. I have never used one nor have I ever veneered. Your help would be appreciated.
As far as the rest of the project goes, I have a plan of loose tennons along with lags and plugs so glue lines etc wont separate due to the application.

I have not found a ton of information on door construction, so if you have something I could use I would appreciate it.

Thanks for your help!

[Jerry Miner]

I was with you until I saw "lags and plugs". I would not use lags to build a door--particularly if you are thinking of driving them into end-grain to join stiles to rails.

Mortise-and tenon construction is tried-and-true. Production shops commonly use dowels. Either would be better--IMHO--than lags. Loose tenons would be a step up from dowels.

Door construction is pretty straight-forward. Dry-fit the parts, keep the assembly flat during glue-up. Have enough help and clamps to get it all together before the glue sets.

[Mel Fulks]

I wouldn't use the lags either....but I'm going to suggest a different way that will be frowned on ,but does work. Glue the door together with biscuits on both sides about 5/16 down from finished surface. Then drill all the way through stiles and into rails about 2and 1/2 inches with 1/2 inch bit. Drive the dowels through a plate to squeeze them a little smaller,or use slightly over size bit. Use yellow glue thinned with a little water apply to hole and dowels. I've used this when I didn't have access to mortisers. Always warned that the dowels would show and it's never had an objection, and with the lags you need plugs anyway. The dowels must be small enough ,or compressed enough to go in easily ,or they will be glue starved ,or split the door ,or both. All joints must be pulled up tightly or any kind of joint will ,over time,loosen.

[Kevin Jenness]

A "stave core" is typically made out of staves, or sticks, of solid wood. You can buy stave core in sheets, generally made up of random length short pieces finger jointed together in various species, or you can make your own of full length rippings. You also can buy stave core parts veneered with your choice of material from various suppliers. The idea is to make a stable core by gluing it up from smaller pieces which have less tendency to warp when assembled than a solid wood blank. Mdo is a rot resistant and fairly stable material but does not lend itself to truing up after lamination. If you could lay up a perfectly flat mdo core and just glue the face veneers to it you might succeed, but that scenario is unlikely.

Some people say they use paralam or microlam material for cores successfully. I don't know how well controlled the MC is on these structural materials. As with mdo the minimal movement of the core can set up a conflict with the face veneer with RH swings if the face is more than 1/8' thick. Solid wood stave cores present less of a problem in that regard with wide parts (bottom and lock rails in a traditional door).

All these laminated constructions are often referred to as "engineered" , although there is little engineering involved in most cases aside from the seat of the pants kind.True solid wood doors are largely out of style as they require more care in selecting and milling the parts and fewer species are suitable, especially for entry doors that have to hold up to weather and huge temperature and RH differences on each side. Mot manufacturers use some type of stave core as it is more predictable, but traditional solid wood construction is scarcely out of question.

Properly fit and sized loose tenons 2 1/2" long have proved effective in my experience for normal sized doors. Lags from the outside of the stiles add unnecessary complication.

I don't know anything about the "Excel 5" system, but a vacuum press is quite effective for laminating door parts. I like to use epoxy for its moisture resistance and long open time. If you do use epoxy be sure the surfaces are rough, either sawn or sanded to 80#.

Making an entry door is not a trivial thing. To do it effectively you have to have control of the material and joinery, hardware, weatherstripping and finish. There is a good deal of material on the subject, some of it contradictory, on Woodweb. Joe Calhoon and David Sochar are two voices to be found there that merit particular attention.

[Nick Lazz]

Thanks Kevin. Issues you have brought up are of particular interest to me and also somewhat frustrating. Most of what I have found, as you state, is contradictory.
The lag component, that everyone is beating up on, is one of those issues. I have seen this first hand so, I didn't invent the idea.
As far as the stave core with MDO, an article was published on this method a few years back that peaked my interest. Short of finding a supplier that would sell me the stave core material for one door (which I highly doubt), this seemed like a good option.
This is not without its own problems though, which I recognize. My biggest concern is glue creep which selecting the right glue may prevent. But your comment on movement from the solid wood faces now brings up something I haven't considered.
My initial intent was solid wood out of an old growth fir tree, which fell through. Now I am scrambling for a reasonable, solid solution.
I can post the article where I found the MDO core when I get a chance.
If you know of a source for stave core material I would be interested. Thank you for the post and information.

Nick

[mreza Salav]

I have limited experience with entry door making (made a stave core that I documented here in a thread). If I was to give one advice is to make your stave from short lengths pieces instead long ones. It might be easier to get laminated sheets that have short pieces fingerjoint together and then rip them into smaller width.

[Mel Fulks]

There is at least one door mfg. that uses (or used) mdf cores,I got an old ad I saved. I made up some samples using Extira mdf but have not used them to make a door. But ,yeah ,you have to be able to keep them straight while gluing. Buying the core material is a time saver on big jobs, but the few complete stiles we bought were NOT as straight as the ones I make. I have to disagree on the engineering thing. They are engineered ,it's all engineered. Just doesn't need to be done on every new job. Nobody wants to pay a carpenter to sit down and figure if 16 inches on center is going to be safe for your family.

[Brad Shipton]

I suggest you go to the woodweb and read all the posts you can find on door construction by David R. Sochar. He has mentioned writing a book on wood door construction eventually, but until then he posts frequently on the woodweb when doors come up.

[David Kumm]

I use loose tenons, 2.5x5"x5/8", two when I have enough width on the rails. The lag thing only works if you drive a dowel into the rails so the screw has long grain to go into. I would not go to that effort. Dave

[Kevin Jenness]

At my old spot we bought sheets of pine stavecore from South Shore Millwork in MA but the shipping to you would be prohibitive. If you do a web search you could surely find a closer supplier, and you might be able to buy a sheet from a local millwork shop. Some shops make their own parts. Keep in mind that even buying prefab stavecore material making a door with it is labor intensive as you have to edgeband it with thick enough material to accept further milling (sticking, bevels) as well as facing it with resawn material. Doug Fir is a good choice for solid construction and readily available to you if you decide to go that route.

On the subject of contradictory information, well, there's a lot of it about. All one can do is take it in and sort it out based on the fundamentals of woodworking as you understand them. One thing is for sure, people have been making plank style and frame and panel entry doors successfully for centuries so there are plenty of examples to copy. When you start playing with experimental construction you want to be sure it's going to work out based on accurate understanding of the materials and experience (someone else's is bound to be less expensive).

[mreza Salav]

I used 3" deep M/T (one for the top and middle rail and two for the bottom). I used west system epox for stave core construction and the M/T joints, used titebond III for the veneer over stave cores as it gives a little more flexibility vs epoxy.

[jim mills]

Dave gives one opinion of why lag screws "wont work", but i would like to see others chime on why they are against it. (other than "i wouldn't") I've screwed and plugged (bung) a bajillion things together over my life time and I dont recall ever seeing a failure caused by a screw pulling out. Including a 50' wooden boat. Just because door manufacturers dont do it doesn't mean its not a viable way to do it.

[Kevin Jenness]

Threaded fasteners, as David pointed out, are far less effective in end grain than side grain. Moreover,as the stiles shrink and swell over time (depending on their width, species and orientation and the conditions in service), there may well be compression set under the fastener head leading to loose joints and racking. So a lagged door in my opinion is less likely to survive its builders lifetime than one built with more traditional and tested joinery.

[Mel Fulks]

I think some of the things that seem contradictory come from not looking at the exact particular situation. If you are making several mahogany doors your problem is not stability ,it is cost. So using stave core might save some money. If you have to make one red oak door ...and the customer wants that "beautiful cathedral grain" as opposed to rift grain then you need to use stave core. If you don't ,there is a high likelihood door will not stay straight and they will want a free replacement. So one red oak door can cost as much as one mahogany door. Other things that contradict are equally good
personal preferences.

[Nick Lazz]

Threaded fasteners, as David pointed out, are far less effective in end grain than side grain. Moreover,as the stiles shrink and swell over time (depending on their width, species and orientation and the conditions in service), there may well be compression set under the fastener head leading to loose joints and racking. So a lagged door in my opinion is less likely to survive its builders lifetime than one built with more traditional and tested joinery.

Kevin, I truly appreciate your input on this particular point of my post as well as the rest but I really don't want to lose focus on the point of my original post. I have a friend that is a finish carpenter that builds entry doors. He uses lags in concert with his loose tennons to a great deal of success. I really don't want to argue the validity of the whether they are good or bad...to tell you the truth, I have seen their application and know that they work. Regardless, my post was particularly concerned about stave core type construction and the best way to make this type of door with vacuum clamps...specifically the Excel 5.

Does anyone have input on the vacuum clamping and the Excel 5? You could talk to a hundred door builders and they'll all tell you the other guy is full of sh_t.
Input on the following is much appreciated:

Stave core construction
Vacuum clamping
The Excel 5 Vacuum kit

Thanks,

Nick

[mreza Salav]

Here is the thread showing how I built mine, I built a big I-beam to do the glue-up of the stave cores (to get them straight) and used the same to clamp the veneers (see post #5).

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?207022-Building-an-entry-door-%28work-in-progress-%29&highlight=

[Kevin Jenness]

The vacuum pump you reference looks like a good value. When I searched for it I noticed that several posts here on SM came up so you might well delve into the archives. I would prefer a pump with a pressure switch to reduce noise and electrical consumption, but a continuous run unit will work fine if designed for that duty. Used with a platen and bag it is very useful for veneering and curved laminations, and is also handy for workholding using puck type fixtures. Although the available pressure is low compared to using many heavy duty clamps the pressure is evenly distributed. As Mreza points out though, clamps and cauls will do a good job as well. If you use a stave core construction you will probably find that edging the cores is best done that way as pressing pieces on edge is awkward in a vacuum press.

In regard to lags, if you think they are useful, have at it. In my opinion they are a poor substitute for clamps and add nothing to a frame that is joined with properly sized and glued tenons.

[Brad Shipton]

I have built quite a few stave's using a vacupress system. I could only find one picture of my stock in the vacuum bag (interior door), and this was when I was bonding the edging. I came up with a wedge idea to bond the edging. It was kind of fiddly so now I use clamps. The vacuum works perfectly fine. Making the veneer is time consuming and depending on your wood choice, you may go thru a lot of stock trying to find a good piece for the bottom rail. When I build more I plan to buy my veneer from Certainly wood. They have some species in 1/16" thicknesses. I used 3/16" thick stock when I make my own veneer.

http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Passage%20Doors/DSC01664.jpg
http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/Passage%20Doors/DSC01667.jpg

Many people use the Excel 5. If you are using PVA, the continuous run is less of a problem, but if you use an epoxy that requires 6 - 24hr for cure, that would be annoying to me. I have used quite a lot of epoxy or Unibond, and it is nice the vacuum turns off frequently. If you have an reasonable size air compressor, Vacupress makes a version that is a bit cheaper for that.

[Mel Fulks]

That's a nice set up ,Brad. In my experience Titebond is fine ,I think the most important thing is do not add water or use a UF glue that has to be mixed with water. Obviously you can't do as many at one time with yellow glue.

[Nick Lazz]

Great stuff guys! I really appreciate all the info. Mreza, your door construction thread was great...does any other post show the finished door? Thanks for posting.

Brad, the glue I was looking at was the PPR type sold on the same site. The PVA I was worried about glue creep. Thanks for the great info.

What material are you using for your stave core glue ups? Fir? Short of me finding a supplier, I may have to build my own.
Thanks again for all the information, all of you have been really helpful.

Nick

[Brad Shipton]

For these interior doors I used glulam stock. I work with a glulam supplier occasionally and they had some test stock they sold me for a good deal. I have read about others using timberstrand or doing their own layups. Timberstrand is easy to find and stable, but it will make for a very heavy door since the density of this is around 68pcf. Timberstrands have strict production policies, so the moisture content problem boils down to how the end supplier stores the stock. In the threads below you can see a wide variety of what some use. If you are going to do your own layups I think this question will be what supply options you have.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Door_Core_Alternatives.html
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Stave_Core_Veneer_Door_Layup.html
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Is_Poplar_Good_for_Exterior_Door_Cores.html

To be honest, I do not have a lot of experience with exterior doors. In some cases the exposure is pretty forgiving and you can get away with almost anything, but in others, the exposure is critical.
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Exterior_Doors_and_Sun_Exposure.html
http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Building_an_Entry_Door.html

[mreza Salav]

Great stuff guys! I really appreciate all the info. Mreza, your door construction thread was great...does any other post show the finished door? Thanks for posting.


Look at this post and a few other down showing putting the door together and installing it:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220868-Building-a-new-house-from-foundation-to-finishing-and-all-the-woodworking&p=2306065#post2306065

(it was part of my big project of building a house, so other things are mixed in).

[jack forsberg]

there is a thread on how i do it with classic machines.

https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/tools/power-tools/vintage-power-tools/48620-25-and-the-wadkin-dr-has-to-work-in-the-cold-north

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/tool613009/stavecore002_zps4f5207f6.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr07kHaobMI

[Nick Lazz]

Jack, do you have any more info or photos of your stave core?

Nice stuff guys, really impressed with all your work and really appreciate the posts.

[Joe Calhoon]

You are getting some good advise from Kevin and Mel who are seasoned door builders.
I will add a couple things. The lags are a bad idea. Mechanical fasteners in applications like this will loosen in time through cycles of moisture. There is testing for this in Europe. The mechanical fasteners that are a male - female connection do better but still not as good as dowels or tenons.

We build some doors with solid stave cores and some totally from solid wood. Our Euro doors are face laminated solid wood but that is a different animal and only works on very thick doors. Engineered or not on 1 3/4" and 2 1/4" doors depends on size and wood species. I prefer solid wood staves but for tall doors it is hard to beat LVL cores made specifically for doors to keep the stiles straight. One thing that is important with stave - skin construction is to make sure the skins are the same MC. If not they will bow the stiles as the wetter one drys.

I would never consider using the vacuum bag for edge gluing the staves when simple bar or edge clamps will do the job better and faster. We tried the bag for face gluing the skins on but because there in not enough pressure the glue line was always visibly thicker. Plus a lot of work to keep everything in alignment. We have wooden torsion boxes we use to press skins in our frame press or JLT clamp. The bag however does work good if you are pressing using epoxy.

We have no problem using TB3 for the whole process. Shops in warm climates have experienced problems with TB3. A rigid glue such as Unibond or epoxy for the skins will keep the stiles straighter but we have no issues with TB3. You can take a engineered stile glued with 3 and lay it flat between a couple saw horses overnight and it will usually bow down. Flip it and it will go the other way. In application they are vertical and never any problems for us.

Good corner joinery is important but equally or more important is finish, caulking and hardware installed correctly.

[jack forsberg]

Jack, do you have any more info or photos of your stave core?

Nice stuff guys, really impressed with all your work and really appreciate the posts.
not much on the stave that i glue of from 1 x12 white pine but there is just as much work in the jam.

https://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/forum/tools/power-tools/vintage-power-tools/49641-wide-door-sill-milled-from-the-botom/page4

[Brad Shipton]

Joe, I agree the edge gluing in the vacuum press turned out to be a bad idea, but thankfully that brain wave passed. I did not have enough clamps at that time to prep all staves quickly. The pressure generated was very inconsistent due to the friction between the wedge and side board.

Joe, would you mind sharing when you might consider using solid stock rather than building staves? I trust your opinion and it would be interesting to hear the key things you look at when deciding. When I build my exterior doors I would prefer to pay a bit more for better stock rather than go thru the work to build stave's.

[lowell holmes]

You might consider making the door from vertical grain fir, which is a traditional material.
Here is a picture of my new front door. It can be made with shaper cutters, which I did, or it can be made with loose tenons.
The door is 1 3/4" thick. If raised panels are not your thing, my back door is a slab door I made with the same material.
If you want a construction sketch of the door, private message me with your email address and I will send you a pdf of the file.


333406

[Kevin Jenness]

Lowell,

When you say " It can be made with shaper cutters, which I did, or it can be made with loose tenons" do you mean that you milled long tenons with a cope on the shaper? I have typically combined inserted tenons with a cope and stub tenon on doors like this. At my old job we had some 9" tenoning discs that would allow for coping a long tenon, but we typically would use corrugated back cutters for a shallow cope and stick setup and reinforce with spline tenons .

[Nick Lazz]

You are getting some good advise from Kevin and Mel who are seasoned door builders.
I will add a couple things. The lags are a bad idea. Mechanical fasteners in applications like this will loosen in time through cycles of moisture. There is testing for this in Europe. The mechanical fasteners that are a male - female connection do better but still not as good as dowels or tenons.

We build some doors with solid stave cores and some totally from solid wood. Our Euro doors are face laminated solid wood but that is a different animal and only works on very thick doors. Engineered or not on 1 3/4" and 2 1/4" doors depends on size and wood species. I prefer solid wood staves but for tall doors it is hard to beat LVL cores made specifically for doors to keep the stiles straight. One thing that is important with stave - skin construction is to make sure the skins are the same MC. If not they will bow the stiles as the wetter one drys.

I would never consider using the vacuum bag for edge gluing the staves when simple bar or edge clamps will do the job better and faster. We tried the bag for face gluing the skins on but because there in not enough pressure the glue line was always visibly thicker. Plus a lot of work to keep everything in alignment. We have wooden torsion boxes we use to press skins in our frame press or JLT clamp. The bag however does work good if you are pressing using epoxy.

We have no problem using TB3 for the whole process. Shops in warm climates have experienced problems with TB3. A rigid glue such as Unibond or epoxy for the skins will keep the stiles straighter but we have no issues with TB3. You can take a engineered stile glued with 3 and lay it flat between a couple saw horses overnight and it will usually bow down. Flip it and it will go the other way. In application they are vertical and never any problems for us.

Good corner joinery is important but equally or more important is finish, caulking and hardware installed correctly.

Thanks Joe. I'm not stuck on the lags and appreciate and respect all the advice here. My problem is, I don't have a shaper, so I am limited to what I can do with a router. I am worried my loose tenons will not be long enough as I am not cope and sticking this door. My other issue is, it isn't a residential door and will get a lot more use (even in a rural application) than any residential door. I want to build it to last.
I am using CVG fir for the veneer on both side from the same boards so MC will be consistent. Originally I was going to glue 5/4 material together to get my stiles but read you need 3 pieces to avoid the tendency to bow. That is when I decided on stave core for the stiles.

[lowell holmes]

I have a shaper and also cope and stick cutters for a entrance door. The door is made like frame and panel cabinet doors.

I shaped all of the pieces, but when I assembled the door, I added slip tenons in the top rail, mid rail, and bottom rail joints. I routed blind mortises for the joints.
I put the slip tenons at four elevations. The slip tenons were made with quarter sawn white oak.

I was not going to trust cope and stick joints on a door. Of course with 1 3/4" thick wood, there is plenty of wood to make the joint.

With exterior glue, those rails will not come apart. In addition to the door in the picture, I also made a slab door with a half window in it for the back door.

The doors are 1 3/4" thick, using vertical grade fir. Vertical grade fir is dense and exceptionally tough. Never having used the specie, I was amazed with the wood.

[mreza Salav]

You can make long tenons with router bits, as long as you can make mortises.
Search for Freud 99-277 (for 2.25" thick) or 99-267/99-268 for 1 3/4" thick ones and look at photos on how to make long tenon with the bit.

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, I agree the edge gluing in the vacuum press turned out to be a bad idea, but thankfully that brain wave passed. I did not have enough clamps at that time to prep all staves quickly. The pressure generated was very inconsistent due to the friction between the wedge and side board.

Joe, would you mind sharing when you might consider using solid stock rather than building staves? I trust your opinion and it would be interesting to hear the key things you look at when deciding. When I build my exterior doors I would prefer to pay a bit more for better stock rather than go thru the work to build stave's.

Brad,
Old growth, tight grain, rift and quartered in rot resistant species work good for solid. We use a lot of vg fir with good luck. It will rot in wet climates but works well here in Colorado. Rift and quartered white oak is good. We have used quartered Kaya but there are a lot of variables with this. The old Honduras mahogany was the best but hard to get now. We have used quartered Sapele but you have to be careful with that as it moves a lot. Sipo mahogany is good but hard to get here.

I am trying to buy a quantity of Alaskan Yellow Cedar for door work. That is a very stable material. And we have made a few paint grade doors from solid Accoya now and it seems to stay straight. We have a Mesquite door coming up and that is very stable.
Doors 8' and taller we usually go engineered regardless of species.

We just built 30 some interior doors with vg fir and they turned out very straight. We made one facing pass on the jointer before running the stiles through the S4S machine.

[Brad Shipton]

Huge thanks Joe. Stock selection seems the most important consideration. I read some others talking about door cover, North vs. South facing, .... By the end of those discussions I usually end up thinking the safest for me is staves. I never get to see my stock until it shows up at my door, so stock selection is out of my hands unless I travel 6hrs to a good wholesaler.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Brad,
i would look into Alaskan Yellow Cedar if I were you. I know a woodworker in Prespatou BC and he said it is readly available in the area. It might need drying though. If you want his contact give me a pm.

[Joe Calhoon]

Y
Thanks Joe. I'm not stuck on the lags and appreciate and respect all the advice here. My problem is, I don't have a shaper, so I am limited to what I can do with a router. I am worried my loose tenons will not be long enough as I am not cope and sticking this door. My other issue is, it isn't a residential door and will get a lot more use (even in a rural application) than any residential door. I want to build it to last.
I am using CVG fir for the veneer on both side from the same boards so MC will be consistent. Originally I was going to glue 5/4 material together to get my stiles but read you need 3 pieces to avoid the tendency to bow. That is when I decided on stave core for the stiles.

Nick, here is one mechanical bolt for doors that is good and can be re tightened. I think Rangate sells them.
http://www.omni-joint.com/en/
Mels method would be better than the lag.

[jack forsberg]

Joe that's like the IKEA of window making. That Italian or German

[lowell holmes]

It's not exotic, but there is a reason so many paint grade doors were made using straight grain fir.

It is stable, dense, straight, and reasonable to work. The BORG wood is not the same as what I bought at Clarke Hardwood Lumber Company in Houston. Some mahogany is good door material and I would not be afraid of qs white oak.

I replaced a lot of exterior painted window trim with shop made mouldings using qs white oak.

In the front door I made and installed was so heavy that I had to get an air wedge to lift it onto the hinges. If you haven't bought an air wedge, you should check them out.

[Joe Calhoon]

333557[QUOT333558E=jack forsberg;2540302]Joe that's like the IKEA of window making. That Italian or German[/QUOTE]
italian
I would not use them for doors but I can see a use for large frames to knock them down for transport.
Some windows are made with these for use without a glass bead. Sash is taken apart if glass needs to be changed.