To make better dovetails

[Brent Cutshall]

Which saw is better for dovetailing, a gent's or a dovetail saw?

[ken hatch]

Brent,

Forgive me but one of 'em is named a dovetail saw.

ken

[Jebediah Eckert]

Brent,

Forgive me but one of 'em is named a dovetail saw.

kene

I thought it maybe a trick question..........

[Phil Mueller]

Kidding aside, I think if you search around the site, you'll find mention of both of those being used for dovetails, as well as Japanese pull saws. IMHO a good sawyer could do well with any. Case in point, there's a video out there of someone (can't recall who) cutting nice dovetails with a full size saw and a variety of other odd saws. Really comes down to what cuts to the line the best for you.

[Mike Henderson]

The teeth on the gent's saw are too fine for good dovetail cutting (too slow). And most gent's saws are crosscut saws, while a dovetail saw is generally a rip saw.

I don't recommend a gent's saw for dovetails.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

I don't believe that is correct, Mike. I have had gent saws that were rip filed from the factory. Veritas sell them, Pax sell them, Crown sell them. LN used to sell one.

However, I share with you that a gent saw is not a personal recommendation. I find that a pistol grip is more directional and controllable. Having said that, a professional high end furniture maker friend of mine swears by his gent saw, which he has used for 30 years. He also loves the Gramercy dovetail saw (as I do), which is a pistol grip.

In the end, it is really about personal preference.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brent Cutshall]

Thanks everyone, I think I might go with a dovetail saw cause I generally can replace the gent saw with a coping saw. I don't got a bandsaw to dovetail with. Boy, that was a heated debate over hand tools vs. power tools wasn't it.

[Don Jarvie]

I would suggest a carcuss saw. Since the saw is bigger you can use it for other things so it has a bit more versatility. I have the LN and love it.

[Mike Brady]

I can only speak of the Lie-Nielsen gent's saws, but they are (were---they're not made anymore) fine for dovetailing. There were both cross and rip cut versions. I like them for smaller dovetails. Very nice dovetails can be cut with a Zona saw, a hobby version of a gent's saw. These are under $20. at a good hobby specialty store. I think that a straight-handled dovetail saw promotes a good sawing stroke because the saw becomes an extension of your forearm. Dovetail sawing is not about force anyway. After the first couple of carefully placed strokes you should be needing only to move the saw smoothly towards the baseline. That said most people will choose an open pistol-gripped back saw as their "go to" saw; and there is nothing to argue against that choice.

[Terry Beadle]

Not to cause an indecision....hoot! There was a guy that used a hack saw with a 10 ~ 12 tooth blade to do dove tails. Worked great. I tried this in my shop several years ago and found it to be workable but not nearly as good as a rip back saw.

I bought a 1800's back saw and sent it off to David Weir and had him put in new teeth as there was a broken bit area in one part. I've been using the saw for several years and it just does a great job. It's quite a bit better than the Japanese dove tail saw in tough woods like red oak or paduk. The Japanese saw is wonderful in mahogany and just about any thin stock ( 1/2 in thick or less ). I don't use the Japanese saw in pine as it's got that unpredictable knot or tough resin grain characteristic.

By the way, you should give that chisel with a 17 degree bevel video a watch that Rob Cosman has on his site. That really works great especially in pine.

Dove tails are fun when you have the right tools and the patience... ;-)

Enjoy the shavings !

[Derek Cohen]

One reason I would find a gent saw less desirable is the way I use a pistol grip dovetail saw. It is held so lightly - letting the weight of the saw do the work - and pushed with the heel of my hand. I'm not sure how one would do this with a gent saw.

If you are finding the teeth of your saw catching as you begin a cut, you are most likely not holding it lightly enough.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have several rip filed gents saws. I don't use them for DT's, though occassionally for other rip tasks. I have a Crown gents saw that gets quite a bit of fine CC use-lucked out with nice filing and for some tasks just feels right.

My DT go-to saw is a Grammercy, though I have a number of others. For me, and the wood/thickness, it just works perfectly.

[Patrick Chase]

I don't believe that is correct, Mike. I have had gent saws that were rip filed from the factory. Veritas sell them, Pax sell them, Crown sell them. LN used to sell one.

However, I share with you that a gent saw is not a personal recommendation. I find that a pistol grip is more directional and controllable. Having said that, a professional high end furniture maker friend of mine swears by his gent saw, which he has used for 30 years. He also loves the Gramercy dovetail saw (as I do), which is a pistol grip.

In the end, it is really about personal preference.

This is the best answer so far IMO. It also depends on the scale of your work. The Veritas rip gent's saw is 20 tpi, so it's a good choice for making dovetailed boxes out of thin stock, but a bit slow for furniture (even if you refile it with something more aggressive than the default 14 deg rake angle :)).

[Patrick Chase]

One reason I would find a gent saw less desirable is the way I use a pistol grip dovetail saw. It is held so lightly - letting the weight of the saw do the work - and pushed with the heel of my hand. I'm not sure how one would do this with a gent saw.

IMO that is precisely why there's a divergence of opinion as to how long the handles on gents' saws should be (see Jim Koepke's thread about Bontz' new handle design).

[Don Jarvie]

I took a class on dovetails and everyone seemed to struggle with Gents saws. If you plan on cutting by hand invest in a good saw. The LN I have is worth every penny.

[Jim Koepke]

If you are finding the teeth of your saw catching as you begin a cut, you are most likely not holding it lightly enough.

This came to light for me when a saw from a friends estate had both horns broken off. After replacing the horns, my sawing with the saw got much easier. The bottom horn really makes a difference when a little pressure from the heal of the hand can lift the saw plate to lighten the teeth on the wood while pushing on the forward stroke.

jtk

[Andrew Pitonyak]

I have seen nice dovetails created from both. My first "dovetail saw" was a Crown gents saw. I failed horribly to cut dovetails. Many things probably contributed to that:



Inexperience
Poor saw quality
The round handle provided no reference frame for what is vertical


Are you able to run some test cuts to see what allows you to better follow a line? I have a strong preference for a normal dovetail saw. that said, some people strongly prefer a Japanese saw.

I am a huge fan of try before you buy if that is at all possible.

[Brent Cutshall]

Andrew,I believe my dovetail story will start as yours did. I can cut straight lines with a coping saw but I think a normal dovetail saw will be to my liking. Thanks all!

[Chris Hachet]

Andrew,I believe my dovetail story will start as yours did. I can cut straight lines with a coping saw but I think a normal dovetail saw will be to my liking. Thanks all!

Good luck. I am now making acceptable looking dovetails without that much effort...I use a Lie Nielson saw, it works really well.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Good luck. I am now making acceptable looking dovetails without that much effort...I use a Lie Nielson saw, it works really well.

Note how casually Chris states this. Now, lets be clear about a few things. I watched Chris pick up one of my dovetail saws and he promptly sawed a perfectly vertical cut that was perpendicular to the face. I am pretty sure that he spent many hours honing that skill. After seeing him do that, I should have drawn a few lines and asked him to do it again but to saw immediately to the left, the right, and to split the line. When you are able to do this, dovetails become much easier.

[Mike Henderson]

I heard a story of a guy new to New York who was headed to Carnegie Hall for a concert. It was getting late and he wasn't sure how to get there. He ran down into the subway and asked the first person he saw, who happened to be a drunk leaning against the wall, "How do I get to Carnegie Hall?"

The drunk squinted his eyes, then stood up straight, and said, "Practice, man, practice!"

Same with dovetails - "Practice, man, practice!"

Mike