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Kenneth Fisher
03-04-2016, 6:57 PM
I find myself in a position I've rarely been in. I actually have a bit of spare cash that I can use to buy tools with. Now that I can, I'm not sure what to buy.

I have a basic set of tools, a full set of saws, a set of chisels, brace and bit set, a #4 Stanley, a #5 Stanley, a router plane, block plane. I've got a good set of sharpening stones, and my layout tools are pretty good as well.

Are there any must have tools to add to my basic kit?

As much as I want one, a #7 is beyond my ability to rehab and new is beyond my budget.

Thanks,
Ken

Roger Green
03-04-2016, 7:01 PM
Ken,
Sounds like a shoulder plane might be next.
Random ROG

Tony Wilkins
03-04-2016, 7:07 PM
You might also look for a good condition wooden jointer plane. They can usually be found for not much and can be straightened with your #5.

Nicholas Lawrence
03-04-2016, 7:19 PM
What is the obstacle to a #7? That is the hole I would be looking to fill if it were me.

Jim Koepke
03-04-2016, 8:01 PM
It always seems everyone loves to spend other people's money.

Looking at what you have there are a few directions you could go. Did you make it to the Lie Nielsen Tool Event in Portland a few weeks ago? Those are great places to look at and handle tools to get an idea of what might be added to your tool cabinet. It also helps you discover tools that will not have a place among your users.

Is there a task or project you would like to do but currently are unable to do with the tools you have?

Are you interested in a #7 in particular or would a #8 fit in to your shop?

jtk

Jeff Keith
03-04-2016, 8:01 PM
What do you have to spend?

Phil Mueller
03-04-2016, 8:31 PM
Maybe a spokeshave, or lately I've enjoyed using a few quality rasps and files. Always a fun problem to have!

Jim Ritter
03-04-2016, 8:45 PM
A vise or bench upgrade.
jim

Kenneth Fisher
03-04-2016, 9:58 PM
Thank for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it.


It always seems everyone loves to spend other people's money.

Looking at what you have there are a few directions you could go. Did you make it to the Lie Nielsen Tool Event in Portland a few weeks ago? Those are great places to look at and handle tools to get an idea of what might be added to your tool cabinet. It also helps you discover tools that will not have a place among your users.

Is there a task or project you would like to do but currently are unable to do with the tools you have?

Are you interested in a #7 in particular or would a #8 fit in to your shop?

jtk

I did make it out there. I was very impressed by the tools and would love to one day own some of them.

With the tools I have, I've been able to do or find a way to do everything I've wanted to so far. I know some of what I've done would be easier/faster with the right tool.

If if I can find either a #7 or #8 in the right condition and price I'd be happy. I think I might like the #8 just because it is bigger and I've found I tend to prefer the heavier planes, either would find a place in my shop though.


What do you have to spend?

I've got about $200, not a lot, but more than I've had to spend in a long while.

I've been looking at the Narex rasps, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger because I haven't been able to find any reviews of them.

Jerry Olexa
03-04-2016, 10:21 PM
For me, it would be a jointer plane (#7 or 8)...Or compromise and get a #6 foreplane

Josh Nelson
03-04-2016, 11:04 PM
Thank for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it.



I did make it out there. I was very impressed by the tools and would love to one day own some of them.

With the tools I have, I've been able to do or find a way to do everything I've wanted to so far. I know some of what I've done would be easier/faster with the right tool.

If if I can find either a #7 or #8 in the right condition and price I'd be happy. I think I might like the #8 just because it is bigger and I've found I tend to prefer the heavier planes, either would find a place in my shop though.



I've got about $200, not a lot, but more than I've had to spend in a long while.

I've been looking at the Narex rasps, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger because I haven't been able to find any reviews of them.

Have you tried Supertool.com? The person who runs it puts out an email list every month. I know last month I saw at least one #7 and #8 for around $180.

I will also be glad to check with my local source. I was in there last week and I know he had two #7s and one #8 corrugated. I'm not sure of the pattern honestly because I didn't look too closely. I'm fairly certain I can put my hands on a all wood jointer as well.

Jim Koepke
03-04-2016, 11:27 PM
I've been looking at the Narex rasps, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger because I haven't been able to find any reviews of them.

Just looking at the specs on them. Not sure if Rc 45 is as hard as a rasp should be. What makes me hesitant is:


CNC stitching ensures that the pattern is uniform and each tooth is raised to the same height.

One of the appeals of hand stitched rasps is the tooth height is made uniform, but the pattern isn't. This makes a smoother surface without groves so common to most rasp work.

jtk

Phil Mueller
03-04-2016, 11:38 PM
+1 for supertool.com. It's Patrick Leach's site. I would put his pricing at the higher end of the scale, but he knows his planes and what you get is exactly as described. You'll know if it needs some work or just a decent honing.

Another plane to consider is a #62 low angle or bevel up. I use it far more than my larger planes. It's great for shooting, edge jointing, and general flattening...hogging out or smoothing. It's long enough for most of the projects I do.

New Veritas or Lie Nielson is above your price range...but in my opinion would be worth saving for. An alternative , you could consider the new Stanley SW BU #62. I have one. Reviews are mixed. Takes a bit of fiddling to set up, a lot of backlash in the adjustment. But once set, it performs very well. These can be found for around $135 these days.

Malcolm Schweizer
03-05-2016, 12:35 AM
You certainly have enough $ for a good refurbished #7 and a Hock iron. If you want new, perhaps save a bit longer and go for the Veritas bevel up jointer. The fence option is awesome for jointing edges at 90*.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=52414&cat=1,230,41182,52515

Kenneth Fisher
03-05-2016, 12:56 AM
Just looking at the specs on them. Not sure if Rc 45 is as hard as a rasp should be. What makes me hesitant is:

One of the appeals of hand stitched rasps is the tooth height is made uniform, but the pattern isn't. This makes a smoother surface without groves so common to most rasp work.

jtk

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll be avoiding them and saving up for better.

I think a jointer plane will be the best use of money right now. After some poking about I think I found one on etsy that looks pretty good and is a reasonable price. Gonna sleep on it and think it over a it more.

Thanks for all the help and advice. :)

Warren Mickley
03-05-2016, 8:25 AM
Here are some things you lack:

Plough
Moving fillister (fenced rabbet)
Mortise chisel
Dado plane


You can easily make a cabinet without a jointer plane, but it is tough without a plough , rabbet, or mortise chisel. If you don't have a mortise chisel, I recommend this first, 5/16 or possibly 1/4. Just get one. When you have some experience you will know better what to buy. A mortise gauge is important; you can buy one or make one in about two minutes.

Jeff Keith
03-05-2016, 8:54 AM
If you haven't already done so, search on eBay for a Stanley #7 to get a sense of what's out there for price and condition. You can often find a decent refurbished #7 for not much more than $100, and sometimes less. If nothing else, eBay is a good way to gauge the current market on refurbished planes. Most of my planes are ugly ducklings from eBay, but they work great with minimal effort in tuning them up.

Kenneth Fisher
03-05-2016, 9:53 AM
Any thoughts on this one?
https://www.etsy.com/listing/268217644/lakeside-wards-master-stanley-guts-r7?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=stanley%20plane&ref=sr_gallery_31

Terry Beadle
03-05-2016, 10:08 AM
Just my opinion ( it's free so it's reasonably priced..!! )

That etsy plane looks like a really good user. The description verbiage indicates that the owner is not a new bee to planes and their use.

If it was me, I'd give it a shot.

I solved my jointer challenges by buying a Record #7 and putting a Clifton blade with stay set in it. Over all cost back then was less than $150.
I really recommend that Clifton blade and stayset setup .

Enjoy the shavings !

Jim Koepke
03-05-2016, 11:33 AM
The price looks good. Is Tigard close enough that you could arrange to see it before buying?

jtk

Patrick Chase
03-05-2016, 11:52 AM
Have you tried Supertool.com? The person who runs it puts out an email list every month. I know last month I saw at least one #7 and #8 for around $180.

Supertool is Patrick Leach. He was one of two founders of Independence Tool (the other is Pete Taran, a.k.a. vinrtagesaws.com), which was later bought by Lie-Nielsen and became their saw business. Patrick is also the author of Blood & Gore (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html), which is highly recommended for anybody contemplating a Stanley plane. In other words, he's better-than-reputable.

If you're worried about the challenge of flattening a #7 but want Stanley mechanics then you might consider a transitional jointer like a #32 or #33. I doubt Supertool would sell you one of those, as Patrick Leach has other plans (http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan4.htm) for them (check out the picture about halfway down on the left. See also his descriptions of #28-33). Some influential people (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/woodworking-blogs/chris-schwarz-blog/no-more-iron-bananas) like them precisely because they can be jointed flat, though.

Kees Heiden
03-05-2016, 11:58 AM
I agree with Warren. A plow plane (Record 044 or something similar) and a rabbet plane (old woody) are much more usefull at this point then a jointer plane. And the mortise chisel of course.

This all doesn't need to be expensive on the second hand market.

Patrick Chase
03-05-2016, 12:12 PM
If if I can find either a #7 or #8 in the right condition and price I'd be happy. I think I might like the #8 just because it is bigger and I've found I tend to prefer the heavier planes, either would find a place in my shop though.

I also tend to prefer heavier/wider planes and have both (a LV custom #7 and an L-N #8), but I have to admit that I have (unexpectedly) found myself using the #7 at least as much as the #8. There are a few reasons for this:

1. The difference in length (22" vs 24") is small, so they both do ~equally well at flattening, particularly for narrow work like edge-jointing. If Stanley had been internally consistent with their numbering they would have called the 8 a 7-1/2 instead - It's a wider and slightly longer version of the 7, just as the 5-1/2 is a wider and slightly longer 5.

2. "Heavier is better" has its limits, and with a 2-5/8" blade the #8 is in its own special league of "heavy". I'm pretty big and have decent upper body strength and stamina, and don't find the #8 uncomfortable to push in straight lines, but at the same time it's not particularly agile. It's like planing with a freight train, which can be either good or bad depending on your preferences and what you're doing. If you're working, say, tabletops then the #8 is clearly superior. If you're mostly jointing edges, then I'd go with the #7.


I've been looking at the Narex rasps, but I'm hesitant to pull the trigger because I haven't been able to find any reviews of them.

The description of those rasps (on Highland Woodworking) contains a BIG red flag: "CNC stitching ensures that the pattern is uniform and each tooth is raised to the same height". The pictures do indeed appear to show uniform toothing.

A uniform pattern is just about the last thing you want from a rasp, because the tool will tend to "chug" as each row of teeth falls into the divot left by the previous one. That's why Nicholson came up with a semi-automated randomized stitching process for the #49 and #50 (uniform is actually easier to achieve in machine-made rasps) and why people spend $$$ for manually stitched rasps like the Aurious and the Pakistani-made ones at TFWW. I wouldn't buy those Narex rasps without trying them first.

Hopefully the description is just wrong - if they're really doing CNC stitching then they should be able to randomize the tooth pattern pretty easily. Non-CNC mass manufacturing is what forces cheap rasps to have uniform patterns.

EDIT: Looking more closely at the pictures, those are definitely uniform tooth patterns on the Narex rasps. I'd buy modern Mexican-made Nicholson 49/50s before I'd buy those. It doesn't matter where or how well the Narex rasps are made if the entire concept is fatally flawed.

EDIT 2: I was so busy replying that I didn't notice Jim and already said the same thing (last night). He's right - avoid those rasps.

Nicholas Lawrence
03-05-2016, 1:00 PM
I agree with Warren. A plow plane (Record 044 or something similar) and a rabbet plane (old woody) are much more usefull at this point then a jointer plane. And the mortise chisel of course.

This all doesn't need to be expensive on the second hand market.

Ahhh, I forgot about a rabbet plane. That is definitely very useful. I have a wooden one, as well as a Stanley 78, and I like the Stanley a little better. It has both the depth stop and the fence, which can be nice.

Kenneth Fisher
03-05-2016, 9:19 PM
I picked up a Craftsman rebate plane (Sargent version of Stanley 78) complete today. Any suggestions on what I should look for in a basic plough/plow plane? I don't think I need or could afford a Stanley 45.

Nicholas Lawrence
03-05-2016, 9:56 PM
Stanley made a dozen different ones, Sargent made two, Record made some, and of course there are the wooden ones. I have a Sargent 1080 (like a 45, but a little less capable), and I like it. I am sure the others can work well if they are in good condition. Some of them will plow and bead (the 45 for example), some will just plow. The 55 is designed to do everything (complete moldings, etc.), but I think you will want to avoid that.

I think the 45 or 1080 is a good design. Being able to add a simple bead to a project can be nice. Lee Valley sold their plow plane for a long time without the ability to do anything but plow, and I see they just decided to add beading capability.

I bought mine off of eBay some years ago, but in retrospect I think it is a tool that may make sense to buy from a dealer. There are just so many parts that may be missing or broken, and if you don't know what you are looking at you will have trouble telling if the thing is complete or not.

John Gornall
03-05-2016, 10:17 PM
Not trying to be a smart alec - serious suggestion - buy some nice wood.

Jim Koepke
03-05-2016, 11:04 PM
Not trying to be a smart alec - serious suggestion - buy some nice wood.

Crosscut Hardwood and Gilmore wood in Portland. I haven't been to Gilmore in awhile.

jtk

Robert Engel
03-06-2016, 5:51 AM
I think a good philosophy is buy no tool b4 it is needed.

So I would take a breath, stick the money in a book (don't forget which book.....how do I know that?) and as you're working on the next couple projects, think about a tool that would make the process better.

It really depends on what kind of ww'ing you're doing. For example if doing mortise and tenons I think a shoulder plane is a must for tuning no matter how you cut them. Same with a router plane. I couldn't be without either, so these are two immediate additions I recommend to your tool arsenal.

That being said, I think a jointer plane has to be #1 on the list.

Allan Speers
03-06-2016, 10:12 AM
A vise or bench upgrade.
jim


This, unless you already have a great bench.

Also bench accessories, such as holdfasts, a board jack, etc. Anything to help holding your stock when planing.

Perhaps also improve your sharpening system, if it's not as it should be. A slow grinder with a CBN wheel and Tormek guides will come in very handy. It will also definitely thin-out your budget. :(

Jeff Keith
03-06-2016, 11:13 AM
I think a good philosophy is buy no tool b4 it is needed.

Yep! I have too many tools that I thought I should have, before actually needing them, sitting in a drawer somewhere gathering dust. It was fun buying them and taking them out for an initial spin, but that was as far as it went. Having said that, I still like having them around just in case. ;)

Chris Fournier
03-06-2016, 11:22 AM
Don't spend a penny of your tool fund until you are into a project and you realise that you could really use an "X" to make things easier. Then pull out your wallet and pick up "X" guilt free.

No one has yet asked you what kind of work you have done to date! What and how you work has the greatest bearing on your tool purchases.

Prashun Patel
03-06-2016, 12:52 PM
Surprised nobody has asked this. What do you like to make? What do you want to be able to do better? There is no must have after your rather complete general set of tools.

What you want to do will inform whether you should get something for joint prep or surface prep or work holding or carving or something else.

Archie England
03-06-2016, 1:01 PM
Pay attention to those advocating better wood and specific projects. Wish I had.

At the end of the day, good wood does make a project "pop."

Good luck!

Chris Fournier
03-06-2016, 1:20 PM
Surprised nobody has asked this. What do you like to make? What do you want to be able to do better? There is no must have after your rather complete general set of tools.

What you want to do will inform whether you should get something for joint prep or surface prep or work holding or carving or something else.

I certainly have asked the OP exactly this already! I agree that the answer to this question should drive his future tool purchases.

Jim Koepke
03-06-2016, 1:54 PM
I certainly have asked the OP exactly this already! I agree that the answer to this question should drive his future tool purchases.

My impression from earlier posts was the OP's interest was in building boxes. Of course box building is a some what generic term. Cabinets, drawers and many other items could fall in to a category of box building.

jtk

Kenneth Fisher
03-06-2016, 3:02 PM
That's kind of an issue. I don't have the experience to know what I'd like to be building. I have built a few smaller boxes, made some shop fixtures, and I'm currently working on a basic hall table. I think I would enjoy building furniture and would some day like to build some craftsman/mission styled chairs, tables, bookcases. I guess I'm trying to figure out and fill out a basic set of tools so I can learn enough to figure out what I like to build.

Archie England
03-06-2016, 9:42 PM
That's kind of an issue. I don't have the experience to know what I'd like to be building. I have built a few smaller boxes, made some shop fixtures, and I'm currently working on a basic hall table. I think I would enjoy building furniture and would some day like to build some craftsman/mission styled chairs, tables, bookcases. I guess I'm trying to figure out and fill out a basic set of tools so I can learn enough to figure out what I like to build.


Well, then, let us help you spend your money.....


Saws--Panel saws: an 8 tpi crosscut is avg; 11 or 12 for fine furniture cuts (each 24-32"); Hand saws: everyone got their favs--mine: 12" carcass and rip; 16" tenon and crosscut; Bow saw: I love my Grammercy kit bow saw, much better than any coping/fret that I've tried (about a half dozen)

marking and layout tools--marking knife (I've got too many, some bought but several made from spade bits). I prefer single edge registration with a double bevel; squares--can't have too many unless you buy junk ones; marking gauges-- I like knife edges better than pins but each have a particular function

coarse, medium, and fine hand planes--Depending on just how rough of lumber you begin with--so store bought means higher wood cost but less heavy roughing work (Though fun to have all the plane nos., it's not at all necessary)--A scrub or #5 (or a 5 1/4) for hogging or rough work; #6 (or 7 or 8 or 5 1/2) for medium smoothing and jointing; #3 or 4 or 4 1/2 for fine finishing;

Specialty planes--Router plane, r/h skew plane, moving filister, plow plane, shoulder planes (small, medium, and large), and spokeshaves (flat, round, and curved)

Bench (and accessories for clamping)--weighty, anchored, and sufficiently thick enough to withstand pounding, along with holdfasts or clamps

chisels--bench chisels (smaller sizes are more handy, along with 1" and sometimes bigger ones); paring chisels (a few here); mortise chisels (typically 1/4, at min)

files--get some good ww rasps and files (yes, the Ariou and Ligoner are worth it (but dang expensive)

drilling/boring--10" and perhaps a larger brace, with bits (#4-16, plus an expansion bit); a hand drill like the Millers Falls 2, along with brad point bits as well metal boring bits for all mediums

sharpening for saws--a vice of some kind, files from 5"to 6" slim, tapered, etc., oh, and some handles would be good. Also, a saw set (42x), a jointing file and holder (and good lighting)

sharpening for plane blades and chisels--a grinder with a low grit wheel to shape the edge, plus stones or diamond plates of your choice. Plus, several stone holders and a flattening stone if using stones.

tool storage--make or buy cabinets for your tools. Purchase oils or provide other means for inhibiting rust.

Prashun Patel
03-07-2016, 5:48 AM
I dont mean to sound glib, but if i were you i would wait. Start your next project and wait until the answer becomes obvious. And it will.

even if you. Dont know what specifically you want to build, what tasks do you want to improve?

Chris Hachet
03-07-2016, 7:20 AM
Ken,
Sounds like a shoulder plane might be next.
Random ROG

This was exactly my thought. That and any additonal paring chisels you might want for dovetailing.

Chris Hachet
03-07-2016, 7:23 AM
For me, it would be a jointer plane (#7 or 8)...Or compromise and get a #6 foreplane

I just bought a pristine type 16 Stanley #6 for $45. Good #6 planes can be had cheap as everyone wants the #7. I have a #8 sized wooden jointer I got off of another creeker several eyars ago, beween the two I am not sure I need a 7.

John Sanford
03-07-2016, 5:23 PM
Mission style furniture involves a lot of mortises. If you intend to build the furniture authentically, then you'll be needing a hollow chisel mortiser. If, on the other hand, it's your intention to work solely/primarily by hand, then you'll be well served with a mortise chisel or two.

That said, I'd recommend getting set up for scraping. $20 or so for a set of scrapers. Add a burnisher, a mill file, and something along the lines of the Veritas Jointer/Edger, and you'll be set with the scraping basics. You can shortcut the process and get the Veritas Scraping Set, or get most of the components of the set, swapping out their Variable Burnisher for a "screwdriver" style burnisher at roughly 1/2 the cost. There's a lot that can be done with a scraper, and you'd still have 1/2 or more of you funds to squirrel away for a #7 or somesuch.

Lenore Epstein
03-07-2016, 6:17 PM
I dont mean to sound glib, but if i were you i would wait. Start your next project and wait until the answer becomes obvious. And it will.
+10. If you're worried about frittering the money away, try putting it in an envelope and keeping it on display in your shop until you know what you need.

lowell holmes
03-07-2016, 6:47 PM
I lust after the Lee Valley small plow plane.:)

I'm going to give up and order one someday.

Jim Koepke
03-07-2016, 7:21 PM
I lust after the Lee Valley small plow plane.:)

I'm going to give up and order one someday.

I used to think the Stanley #45 was the plow plane to end all plow planes. Then one day looking around an antique mall there was a Stanley #50 at a price I couldn't refuse. It is a smaller plane and it amazes me at how it is better for some tasks than the Stanley #45.

Compared to what I have spent on my accumulation of blades and planes in the world of multi-planes the Lee Valley Small Plow Plane is somewhat of a bargain.

Truth be told though there are over a half dozen plow/combi/multi-planes in my shop.

jtk

Adam Cruea
03-08-2016, 8:37 AM
Well, if you're doing larger work, a #7 would be useful.

Good saws are always a wise investment for breaking down stock.

If you're going to be shaping things, spend the money and by some Auriou rasps. They're excellent.

Kenneth Fisher
03-08-2016, 1:23 PM
Thanks for all the advice. I've decided to keep building and wait until I absolutely need a tool to do a job before buying.

Prashun Patel
03-08-2016, 1:52 PM
I didn't say 'absolutely need' ;) I usually settle for 'kind of want'. I suffer from shiny-thing syndrome and make no apology!!!

Jim Koepke
03-08-2016, 1:57 PM
I didn't say 'absolutely need' ;) I usually settle for 'kind of want'. I suffer from shiny-thing syndrome and make no apology!!!

Shiny-thing syndrome is a close relative of rusthuntoholism.

"It's rusty and cheap. I can take it home and fix it up into a great usable tool that will sit on a shelf."

jtk

Daniel Rode
03-08-2016, 2:27 PM
I didn't spend much on my #7 nor did I put much effort into it's rehab. What I did was wait and wait and wait until I found a tool in the condition I wanted and a price I was willing to pay. I think I paid about $70 and spent an hour cleaning it up. A fellow SMC member helped me out by reviewing the pictures before I bought it. I was fortunate, but I'm usually fortunate because I do my homework and I try to be patient.

Unexpectedly, The #7 was a game changer for me. I anticipated that I would continue to use my power jointer and just use the #7 for wide boards, flatten table tops, etc. The reality is that I haven't used the power jointer in a couple of months now. I use the #7 in it's place.

Stephen Clement
03-08-2016, 2:48 PM
Here are some things you lack:

Plough
Moving fillister (fenced rabbet)
Mortise chisel
Dado plane


You can easily make a cabinet without a jointer plane, but it is tough without a plough , rabbet, or mortise chisel. If you don't have a mortise chisel, I recommend this first, 5/16 or possibly 1/4. Just get one. When you have some experience you will know better what to buy. A mortise gauge is important; you can buy one or make one in about two minutes.


I'm not adding much to this discussion, but I throw my concurrence with the plough, moving filister, or jointer as others have said. But, think about this first: everyone here is basing their recommendations on the type of woodworking they do, which may not be what you do. The jointer is exceptional for flattening, but if you only do small boxes, it isn't needed. If carving is your thing, you probably don't need many joinery planes. Think about what you want to build and go from there. It may be that the best investment of your money is in wood and not in tools. For general joinery/cabinetry, the three planes I listed are pretty important, but they may not be important to you.