Let's talk about strops (and ceramic stones)

[Daniel Rode]

Today, I sharpen with diamond stones and finish on a 15k shapton. Eventually, I think I want to move to something different. George and other's have used Spyderco ceramic stones for many years. Simple, durable and portable works for me. I think a pair of ceramic stones and a strop would be all I'd need. No water, no oil, no flattening and only 3 pieces. What's not to like?

The question I have is about stropping. Specifically using a strop as the final step to hone / polish the edge. I've made and used a thin suede strop with green compound, a thicker leather strop with oil and combinations of both. I very briefly tested MDF charged with the green stuff as well. I don't want to start a strop war :) I just want to figure out what strop I need to use for this. The "why" is important to me.

So, what works for you and why?

[george wilson]

I used a leather strop for many,many years. I don't like the FEEL of my MDF strop,but it doesn't round off the cutting edge like soft materials,so I use it instead. Keep it where it can't get shop dust and grit on it.

Don't forget: I use a diamond stone to start off on tools that are particularly dull,or might have a nick,etc.. Plus,it is good for dressing off "ceramic fuzz"(which will NEVER go away just from use!) or anything else on a new ceramic stone. I haven't seen a "black" Spyderco that needed dressing,but the white one might. You might be better off buying the super fine white. They don't need dressing,and have nice,smooth,ready to use surfaces.

[Daniel Rode]

Thanks George. I like the diamond plates for the coarser work as you described. It's the day-today honing where I want to try the Spyderco stones and a strop. I've read that the soft leather with green compound is great for carving tools because it rounds the edge. I have no experience with carving tools. For chisels and plane irons, I want to avoid rounding.

If I understand correctly, you are using the MDF strop like a fine stone to polish out the scratches from the fine ceramic. Yes?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

What works best for me is a leather strop, well worn from many years of stropping with green chromium oxide. I have nothing against wood strops, it's just that I have never felt a need to switch from what works for me. I actually do like the idea of a hard strop for microbevels and times when a tiny difference matters, but still the leather strop has done me well.

I tried a strop charged with oil and the "red stuff".... sorry, I can't remember what it is, maybe iron oxide, but supposedly it is finer than green chromium oxide. It comes in a powdered form and I was instructed to oil the strop and charge it with the red powder. What I ended up with was a muddy mess that clumped in my strop. One good strop ruined!

I also sometimes strop on the Tormek with their paste, but that is almost always gouges. Flat stuff I prefer to strop on the leather strop. Oh, and I forgot to answer the "why." Mainly I like the leather because it holds the medium better than wood. I do have wood strops shaped for different gouges. I find that the green stuff doesn't want to stick to it.

You do need to break a leather strop in. Also if it is too fuzzy you can actually shave it. Yup. Shave it, or you can use a scraper and scrape it smooth. Mine now is shiny smooth from years of use. I believe that is the key- break it in good. You want the fuzzy side of the leather up, but you want to break it in until it is almost smooth from use.

[John K Jordan]

I use Spyderco (med, fine, and ultra) and leather strop to keep my carving/chip carving knives sharp once shaped with diamond and scary sharp. I found a pigskin on a board strop at a carving place and it's my favorite, far better than a couple of others I have. I also use the Tormek strop for gouges and turning tools.

A friend told me recently something I didn't know about stropping. He learned this decades ago from a barber. He said most people strop incorrectly - barbers are taught to hold the blade against the leather at the exact angle then rotate it AWAY from the edge during the strop. This will prevent rounding over. Maybe everyone else but me already knew this...

JKJ

[Mike Brady]

A friend is letting me try his Spyderco stones while he is away. I honed a new Narex chisel on the three stones and found that they load very quickly with black swarf. Does that buildup on the stones inhibit their effectiveness? I cleaned them with Barkeeper's Friend and they looked clean again, but some of that swarf was hard to remove. Is this typical? I used a honing guide if that makes a difference.

[Stew Hagerty]

Today, I sharpen with diamond stones and finish on a 15k shapton. Eventually, I think I want to move to something different. George and other's have used Spyderco ceramic stones for many years. Simple, durable and portable works for me. I think a pair of ceramic stones and a strop would be all I'd need. No water, no oil, no flattening and only 3 pieces. What's not to like?

The question I have is about stropping. Specifically using a strop as the final step to hone / polish the edge. I've made and used a thin suede strop with green compound, a thicker leather strop with oil and combinations of both. I very briefly tested MDF charged with the green stuff as well. I don't want to start a strop war :) I just want to figure out what strop I need to use for this. The "why" is important to me.

So, what works for you and why?

First of all, stropping is great. As long as it is done properly, and on the right material. Green compound of far coarser than your 15K Shapton, so you would be going backwards. I suggest instead that you strop in the smooth side of a bare piece of nice hard leather. Joel at Tools 4 Working Wood sells the absolute perfect strop material, Genuine Horse Butt. It's OK to laugh, it is pretty funny. He tells about it on his page, I guess somebody discovered that all of the best strops from days gone by seemed to be stamped Genuine Horse Butt. So the guy found a source and made some strops. It really is great material. It's heavy and hard, but not too stiff. So anyway... What you want to do is strop on the smooth side, bare, several times front & back. What it does is burnish off the microscopic wire burr that is left over, giving you a sharper and more durable edge. Now, putting green compound on the rough side is excellent for carving tools. There is just enough give so that you aren't trying to sharpen at one single point.

Personally, I use Oil Stones (Dan's). I have course, medium & fine India Stones and Soft, Hard, & Black Arkansas stones. I have one of T4WW's Horse Butt strops charged with green compound on the course side and I use DMT 0.5 micron DiaSpray on the smooth side. While I'm working, instead of getting out all of my sharpening gear (my hand shakes so I have to use a guide), I just grab my strop and a couple of quick passes on the DiaSpray side gives me an edge about equivalent to a Hard Arkansas in a fraction of the time. And I always finish with several swipes on a hundred year old barber's strop regardless of whether I did a full sharpen & hone, or a DiaSpray. If I need something sharpened and I'm in a hurry but have a plane blade or chisel that needs more than a touch-up hone, I have been known to run it across the green compound side a few swipes before switching to the DiaSpray side but it's not something I would recommend on a regular basis. It's too easy to round over the edge.

So, for what it's worth, there is my 2 cents. Below are links to the Genuine Horse Butt strop and AntigueTools.com's guide to Honing & Sharpening.

https://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/item/MS-HORSEST/Horse_Butt_Strop


(http://antiquetools.com/sharp/)http://antiquetools.com/sharp/

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Green compound of far coarser than your 15K Shapton, so you would be going backwards.



Actually the Shapton 15k is advertised at 0.98 microns, and Chromium Oxide is 0.5 microns. Although there is some breakdown in the slurry on the Shapton which will yield a finer grit in the slurry, grit for grit the Chromium Oxide is finer. I have seen 99.9% pure Chromium Oxide powder advertised at 0.3 microns.

[Jim Belair]

I use thick, hard leather, mounted on wood, smooth side up, charged with green compound. Don't know if it was formerly a horse's butt or not.

Why? It works so I've not seen any reason to try other options.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

My favorite pair of boots are horse butt. (So is the owner, but I digress.) I could certainly see why horse butt would be a preferred leather for stropping- it is very dense, and also very smooth. I'm going to have to seek some out for my next strop. Thanks Stew for that info.

[Brett Luna]

A friend told me recently something I didn't know about stropping. He learned this decades ago from a barber. He said most people strop incorrectly - barbers are taught to hold the blade against the leather at the exact angle then rotate it AWAY from the edge during the strop. This will prevent rounding over. Maybe everyone else but me already knew this...

I'm a straight razor shaver and I use hanging strops...one linen, one latigo. The classic...and I think, Hollywood-inspired...mistake is to lift the blade while rotating the edge down, followed by slapping it back onto the strop. If not perfectly timed, this can result in a rolling force on the edge while it's still in contact with the strop or when it is put back down. Similar to what you describe, I keep the blade in contact with the strop and roll the blade on its spine at the end of each stroke.

For those concerned about stropping on soft leather, you might try horse hide "butt" for a harder, smoother strop.

[Patrick Chase]

A friend is letting me try his Spyderco stones while he is away. I honed a new Narex chisel on the three stones and found that they load very quickly with black swarf. Does that buildup on the stones inhibit their effectiveness? I cleaned them with Barkeeper's Friend and they looked clean again, but some of that swarf was hard to remove. Is this typical? I used a honing guide if that makes a difference.

Were you using them dry? If not, what lubricant?

The Spydercos do load, but they're usually pretty easy to clean with a stiff brush and ordinary cleanser.

[Patrick Chase]

Actually the Shapton 15k is advertised at 0.98 microns, and Chromium Oxide is 0.5 microns. Although there is some breakdown in the slurry on the Shapton which will yield a finer grit in the slurry, grit for grit the Chromium Oxide is finer. I have seen 99.9% pure Chromium Oxide powder advertised at 0.3 microns.

Shapton's stones are literally over-rated in terms of grit. For comparison the Sigman S-II 10K is ~1 micron, and the Sigma 13K is ~0.75 um. Those also happen to be the target values per the current JIS spec.

Which Chromium Oxide paste are you talking about? The green stuff that many outlets including LV sell actually has a fairly high percentage of (larger and more coarse) Aluminum-Oxide particles. That's why LV's product page says "the average scratch pattern it leaves behind is 0.5 um" instead of specifying an equivalent grit or particle size. IIRC they used to do so until somebody (Brent Beach?) pointed out that they weren't anywhere near what they claimed. If that compound were spec'ed as per JIS (which constrains the size distribution as well as the mean) it wouldn't be anywhere near 0.5 um. That isn't to say that you can't get great results from it, just that you have to be careful about throwing out grits and particle sizes.

[Mike Brady]

I was told to use the Spyderco stones dry and since they are not mine, I followed his instructions. I would say that they loaded quicker than any sharpening media I have ever used; however, this may not effect their performance. I am just not accustomed to using a sharpening stone dry.

[Derek Cohen]

First off, I use Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine, and most of the time I spray on a little soapy water to lubricate and wash off swarf.

Secondly, I no longer use leather strops. I have used them for many years, and there are articles on my website comparing bare, diamond-impregnated and green compound-added strops. They are work well. However green compound (from LV) rubbed on planed hardwood is just awesome. It avoids any danger of dubbing, and is cheap and replaceable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[bob starkey]

333011 I have a Surgi-sharp leather belt on my old 42" sander that does what I need

[Daniel Rode]

Derek, it sounds like you (and George) are using the setup I eventually want to adopt. I was experimenting some last night using plain MDF with green compound. I Applied it scribbled like crayon. I worked the edges by applying pressure only on the back stroke.

However, the surface undulates slightly from the compound. I'm not sure I could ever get it applied in a perfectly even coating. The edges seemed quite sharp but I'm concerned that I'm missing something obvious.

As a side note, I like the polished look I get from using the compound. It's a purely aesthetic thing, but I enjoy using a tool with a mirror finish :)


First off, I use Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine, and most of the time I spray on a little soapy water to lubricate and wash off swarf.

Secondly, I no longer use leather strops. I have used them for many years, and there are articles on my website comparing bare, diamond-impregnated and green compound-added strops. They are work well. However green compound (from LV) rubbed on planed hardwood is just awesome. It avoids any danger of dubbing, and is cheap and replaceable.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

If you have "clumpy" crayon on the strop, run the back of the blade on it first. This will remove the clumps. You could also dribble a tiny amount of mineral oil (baby oil) on the wax. It will dissolve and you can work it into the surface, as well as remove the extra layer.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Yes,horse butt,called CORDOVAN leather,is the best leather for many things. You can't make belts from it because the whole piece of horse butt is not large enough to make a long strip for a belt.

As I mentioned,I,too,used a leather strop for decades myself. I liked to use it hair(smooth) side up. This was less edge dubbing than using the suede side up(which most others seemed to use. The problem with using the smooth side up is it is easy to gash the leather,hurting the surface. But,like everything else,it required FINESSE. Everything requires FINESSE!

So,at this stage,Derek and I are,without knowing each other,have been using the same sharpening setups.

I do not recommend using the ceramic,or ANY OTHER stone dry. The swarf will end up stuck to the stone. That is minimized by use of a lubricant to float particles off,leaving gray water to wipe off. That gray is the swarf. I use a squirt bottle of water with a few drops of detergent in it. Something is needed to keep the stone from prematurely loading up,or it won't cut effectively any more. the small amount of water I use is enough to do the job,but easily wiped up with a bit of paper towel. With water stones,I just don't like the mess they make. And,they somehow always managed to leave a bit of light rust on my tools,though I wiped them quite dry after honing. Somehow,my present system does not make my tools rust.