Can you hand tool woodworkers do everything that a powered tool woodworker can do?

[Brian Sommers]

I'm a newbie woodworker. I have power tools. I've been watching lots of youtube videos on hand tools and I have to say there is a certain "zen" factor - whatever that is, I'm not sure, but I find it very appealing.

I was thinking everything I do with my power tools and then think how I could every live without them.

The thing that comes to mind is a router and router table.

How do hand tool woodworkers do fancy edge work for say a nice art frame?

[Mike Henderson]

Sure. They made special (usually wooden) planes for those profiles. You might have to use more than one plane to cut the profile but you can do some very elaborate profiles with hand planes.

Mike

[Zach Dillinger]

I'm a newbie woodworker. I have power tools. I've been watching lots of youtube videos on hand tools and I have to say there is a certain "zen" factor - whatever that is, I'm not sure, but I find it very appealing.

I was thinking everything I do with my power tools and then think how I could every live without them.

The thing that comes to mind is a router and router table.

How do hand tool woodworkers do fancy edge work for say a nice art frame?

I think a better question is can power tool woodworkers do everything a hand tool woodworker can do? Consider the fact that this was made nearly 400 years ago, and I can guarantee no electrons were sacrificed in this project... :)

332945

[Chris Hachet]

I actually find it better to work with hand tools...I do not have a joiner, planer, radial arm saw, et al taking up room or making loads of sawdust in my shop. I do use power tools, but try to limit them.

FWIW you may want to use lower impact powered tools (hollow chisel morticer, battery drill, band saw, et al) and avoid tools that make dons of noise and dust (table saw, routers, chop saww, etc,).

That is an approach that works well for me, as I try to avoid the noise, dust and danger when i am tired of certain power tools. And Molding planes like Mike was talking about can be a lot of fun to work with....in many cases they do a ncier job of creating trim than routers IMHO. I have repaired and restored a lot of very old furniture, and moldings made by hand often ahve qualities impossible to duplicate with power tools.

Regards,

Chris

[Jim Belair]

Matt Bickford did some blog posts with an introduction to making complex profiles with basic molding planes. Here's one. Scroll around earlier/ later blog posts for others.

http://musingsfrombigpink.blogspot.ca/2010/12/frame-3.html

[Chris Hachet]

I think a better question is can power tool woodworkers do everything a hand tool woodworker can do? Consider the fact that this was made nearly 400 years ago, and I can guarantee no electrons were sacrificed in this project... :)

332945

Hand tool skills allow you to build all sorts of things a power tool wood worker would really struggle to build...also think of all of the Sam Maloof and Krenov style modern stuff that is just gorgeous and full of compound curves easily made with hand tools and near impossible with power tools.

...or the grace of a Windsor chair made by hand vs one made with all power tools...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

"Everything is a strong word." Perhaps if I could say "Almost Everything" I would feel better. Actually, as far as finished product, look at any old piece of furniture and likely it's MORE detailed than most new stuff. Yes, everything CAN be done by hand. Some things, however, like bandsaw work and ripping, are sure a lot less fun by hand.

The main thing that is difficult is ripping long, wide boards. It can be done, but the original method is with a pit saw which requires two people, and a pit saw, which is not easy to find these days. Crosscutting is not as difficult, and in fact I much prefer crosscutting by hand rather than (in my case) setting up the folding contractor saw, setting the blade and fence, and making the cut. I'll go for a hand saw almost every time, even when at the big shop surrounded by Unisaws. My students laugh when I grab the handsaw, but when I whiz through a cut, they stop laughing. DISCLAIMER: Obviously a power saw is faster for multiple cuts, or when you already have it there set up. What I am referring to is I'm building something and this board needs to be shortened or mitered, I am going to grab a handsaw. When my students were building 30 park benches, obviously we set up the chop saw and made all the cuts on that. Also if I already have the table saw set up for a similar cut, sure I may hop over to the table saw.

Bandsawing can be replaced by bowsaws, fretsaws, and coping saws. It's no fun, but it can be replaced with them. I would think most of us here with access to a bandsaw would go to it for resawing large timbers, making lots of curved cuts (especially in thick woods) and cutting patterns.

Routing can certainly be replaced. The only issue is instead of multiple bits, you need multiple planes. That gets costly... VERY costly. You can, however, get a basic set of hollows and rounds, snipes bill, a couple of ogees, and combine them in various ways to make multiple profiles. Kind of like this:
(
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{
... Imagine that is three profiles combined on one board to make a complex profile.

Drilling- use a brace. Very simple, much more rewarding.
Morticing- Mortice chisels. Oh boy, I love chopping mortices, especially if I am particularly angry about something. Nothing relieves stress like chopping mortices by hand.
Dadoes- you have many options- A router plane, rabbeting plane, or even a saw and chisel.


I mean, really we could go on forever. Certainly power tools make faster work of certain things, but there is a certain joy and rewarding feeling of doing it all by hand. For me it's about the journey, not the destination. I guess that's why I'm more of a sailor than a powerboat guy. :-)

[Jim Koepke]

As has already been said, my thoughts tend toward the things power tools can not do:

332947

Cutting reads in a wide board is hard to do with a powered tool that doesn't cost a fortune.

Here is a post on making some simple molding:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?225903-A-Simple-Molding

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Yes, and the best part is that you do not need to tool up to very high levels to make comparable quality. Here is a for instance, if you wanted to make a surface comparable to that produced by a hand plane in terms of sheen, with power tools you would need a large jointer, thicknesser and surfacer.....translated into dollars that is about 75k for anything door panel sized.

For a large shop, that turns out that sort of quality, that's a worthwhile proposition. For a one man shop with low volume that is not a value proposition.

For moldings I think the absolute best part of using hand tools.....no sanding. You can cut the profile on a router, but you will be sanding and that sanding has an effect on the profile. If you cut the moldings and do so well, you will be looking at nicely cut surfaces that do not require sanding.

Look at making small parts by hand as practice for making large parts by hand. When you can surface table tops and large panels by hand in your tiny hand tools shop you will see the benefit of hand tools.

I've had people actually ask me if I was kidding with them when I tell them that the majority of my finished surfaces are not sanded. One would not believe me until I actually showed him right there while he watched.

[Kees Heiden]

When I make handles, like saw handles and now plane handles, I feel this is something that would be extremely hard to do with a machine, while with a gouge, a rasp and a scraper it is quick work. The shapes of the countours are rather complex for a machine. And when you are finished and the job worked out well, you have something nice that still has a distinct handmade look and feel to it.

Maybe on some 3D router you could come close, but it would still be very hard to get the "human" look.

[Tony Zaffuto]

There are things that can only be done by hand, such as beadings inside a frame, without rounded corners, or a lamb's tongue, terminating a chamfer.

[paul cottingham]

Read Bickfords book "Mouldings in practice." I came away from my reading believing I could reproduce any moulding I wanted with a few simple tools. Hell, I don't have either a snipes mouth or a side round, and I bet I could still reproduce a pretty fair number of moulding profiles. And, as I have said many times before, I am a marginally talented woodworker at best.

I will will say this. I sold one traded all my routers, bits and table a few months ago. Don't miss them at all.

[Art Mann]

I am 100% a power tool woodworker - - well almost. I once took a tour of Williamsburg, VA and inspected some of the exquisite furniture there that had been built there centuries ago. Based on that experience, I would say that just about anything that can be done with wood can be done with nothing but hand tools. I just don't have the patience or skill and have no desire to learn.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I am 100% a power tool woodworker - - well almost. I once took a tour of Williamsburg, VA and inspected some of the exquisite furniture there that had been built there centuries ago. Based on that experience, I would say that just about anything that can be done with wood can be done with nothing but hand tools. I just don't have the patience or skill and have no desire to learn.

This really is the heart of the issue. The original poster (and anyone else) can do things with hand tools, if he wants to spend the time and effort acquiring the tools, and learning to use and maintain them. It is not something that everyone finds rewarding. I would say start small, with something that interests you. If you find "zen" in hand planes, get a plane and try to put it to work. If you enjoy it you can expand, and if you don't, you don't have to resell the entire Lie Nielsen catalog.

[Brent Cutshall]

SHOOT! Now I got that "Anything you can do I can do better" song in my head. I think Malcolm explained it well. Expert work can definitely be done through only hand tools. As of now, I have my fingers in just about every type of woodwork I can think of, and refuse to use power tools. If you have the right tools there isn't anything you can't do with hand tools and all with no buttons, no flips to switch, just the nice feeling of aching and stiff muscles in the morning. But you get used to it!

[Pat Barry]

What was the question? Seriously, ask this question in the power tool forum for honest answers.

[Josh Nelson]

I would add that not only can you do it at least equally well if not better then you also tend to naturally add in those touches of character that make the pieces so interesting. I have an old dough bowl (more like a dough trough) that I was given when I was stationed in Italy. Its a beautiful wood trough/bowl and its not only immense (think five foot long, nine inches deep, and one foot wide) but the character of such a simple piece is in that this work piece, rather than a fine piece of furniture is covered in light scallops that are completely smooth from both the hand tools that made it and years that its been in use (I was told this was owned by the great-grandmother of the person who made it). Its not absolutely flawless but its flaws add to the distinction of the whole thing.

[Patrick Chase]

OK, as a (former) mechanical engineer with some experience with CNC, the literal answer is: No, we can't do everything a powered tool woodworker can do.

Somebody with a good CNC router or laser can knock out identical parts at a level of precision that hand tools can't possibly match.

The thing is, it's a pointless question. Most hand-tool woodworkers don't *want* to churn out perfectly identical widgets the way a CNC router can. That's why you'll sometimes see Norms and Neanders using completely different adjectives to describe their objectives and work.

My $0.02...

EDIT: FWIW, if I ever again do something like making ski cores, where exactness is a critical attribute and aesthetics are irrelevant, I'd use machine tools.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

What was the question? Seriously, ask this question in the power tool forum for honest answers.

I think that is a little bit flippant. There are a bunch of people who have posted pretty high quality work that was done with hand tools. Brian's work (including a picture frame), Kees' recent cabinet, and Derek's dresser or whatever he calls it are all very well done. I would suggest the original poster look at some of the projects that have been posted on this forum and draw his own conclusions.

[Joel Thomas Runyan]

Somebody with a good CNC router or laser can knock out identical parts at a level of precision that hand tools can't possibly match.


Parts within really narrow parameters. And hand tools can match and even best the precision quite often, it's just never necessary for the things most people would use hand tools to build. A cnc is marvelous for spitting out a stack of plywood constructions, but it's utterly useless for turning a pile of rough lumber into a highboy. And beside, if it could, it would no doubt be copying the design of someone who built it with hand tools, which tells the whole story.

[Archie England]

I once heard that, "when every problem looks like a nail, a hammer is the best solution." As an early power tool junkie, all projects needed better grades of plywood. Now, as a later in life hobbyist, working with wood beats plywood most of the time.

Thirty years ago I was offered the opportunity to apprentice with a couple of retired woodworkers in my community: one was old school with mostly handtools and archaic old iron belt-driven machines; the other, a modern 2,000 sq. ft. shop with every imaginable power tool (and a smattering of hand tools). Well, of course, I waved off the old geyser and piled in with the power tool fella. And, I yearned for a big shop with top-of-the-line cabinet power tools--only to move cross-country several times (and never come close to having the money or space of such power tools. Now, thirty years later, I'm selling off my slowly accumulated power tools (having moved toward a hand tools preference since a shoulder surgery--who would known that planing motion can strengthen one's upper body :) ).

With hand tools, I make mistakes at a much slower rate. I rarely am concerned with a precise cut, since planes and other vintage tools allow me to sneak up on most lines. Now, instead of all projects demanding plywood, I'm working with real lumber and various species. I've even sawed and stacked some farm Cherry, Apple, Walnut, and Magnolia (along with Bradford Pear and others). It's amazing how the use of old hand tools has simplified so many aspects of my hobby woodworking. It's also a lot safer, though I still manage some spectacular blood offerings via chisels or turning tools) on occasion. Though I've yet to build a dedicated shop (on my bucket list), I don't think that hand tools reduce a shop size that much, since I've got two benches with a third one waiting further parts and good garage cleaning to put it up. Hand tools just allow me to be more creative with wood, without worrying about kickback, 2500 rpm blades with carbide frags, or setting up a top-notch low micron filtering system. With hand tools, most of my dust can be seen and not breathed.

So, can I do the same with hand tools as power tools? Yes and No. Both methods can produce junk or treasure--as seen by the many craftsmen who post here. Each has its benefits, as well as its cons. Perhaps that's why I haven't shed all my power tools, just yet!

[Patrick Chase]

Parts within really narrow parameters. And hand tools can match and even best the precision quite often, it's just never necessary for the things most people would use hand tools to build. A cnc is marvelous for spitting out a stack of plywood constructions, but it's utterly useless for turning a pile of rough lumber into a highboy. And beside, if it could, it would no doubt be copying the design of someone who built it with hand tools, which tells the whole story.

I politely disagree w.r.t. precision. The machines are incredibly good these days. There are specific cases where specialized hand tools are in the same league, but in general the machines rule that roost. As a simple example, holding sub-mil tolerances over surfaces with complex curves is child's play for the right machine. I suppose that if you iterated back and forth between a profilometer and very finely set planes/shaves you might get within an order of magnitude of the machine, but at that point it can't really be called "hand-tool woodworking".

With that said I emphatically agree with the rest of your comment, and that was really the point of my post. If you're into hand-tool woodworking then it's almost a given that you have completely different objectives than that.

[Jon Shank]

I started out as a power tool guy and I still have a few. I'm a woodturner too, so I have the lathe(ain't giving that up), and a bandsaw (rounding bowl blanks, etc), Drill press (planning to pick up some braces at some point, but not in a particular hurry, I do have a push drill for pilot holes which is crazy handy). I also have a table saw, but we moved about a year ago and while it made it into the shop it is covered with stuff(horizontal surfaces, geez) and hasn't been plugged in since well before we left the old place. Still have a router, and table, but very little use, just finishing up a project I started before we moved. Hand saws are quiet, make only big dust that falls to the floor instead of fine dust clouding up the air. Hand planes really are a joy to use, that's where I caught the bug with hand tools (probably pretty common, they really are a pleasure), and for all intents and purposed make no dust, but nice big shavings, that can be really pretty in their own right with a nice sharp blade. When I finish up[ some time in the shop with hand tools I can sweep up in a couple minutes and I don't have to worry about the wife being mad at me for the fine dust settling throughout the apartment. Oh yeah, we live in an ap[artment, anfd no one has complained about noise, there's that.
I guess if I was making a kitchen full of cabinets I'd probably dust off the table saw and router table, but that's not what I do. I guess my point, if my rambling could be said to have one, would be there is nothing wrong with being a "hybrid" or "blended" woodworker who uses both power and hand tools. But unless your doing production type stuff, I'd be willing to bet you'll move more towards hand tools over time. Zen is a good word for it, relaxing and enjoyable instead of loud and dusty. More contemplative and less rushed. Hand planing an edge might take a little longer that using a powered jointer (really might, once you get some practice it's pretty quick), but I think you will enjoy it more, I know I do. I guess I got a little far afield from the origional question, but everybody else already answered it, so I went with what I thought was an implied question. From a former Tim Allen and Norm Abrams kind of guy, I'd say it's definitely worth checking out, I know I enjoy my limited time in the shop a whole lot more now. Regardless, just do your thing and enjoy it.

Jon

[Prashun Patel]

i think i may some day retire my table saw, but i think i will always keep a bandsaw and a jointer and planer. If find manual ripping, jointing board faces, and thicknessing tedious and fatiguing and Too slow for how i often need to work.

i find hand tools often easier for finish prep and joint fitting.

[Derek Cohen]

These "either-or" topics miss the point completely. They are the topics of beginners or the ill-informed.

While there are some that choose to be exclusively handtool or powertool orientated, there is no need to make such a division in woodworking. There is no religious, moral, ethical or political rule that I know of that forbids one or the other. Asking whether one is "better" than the other ... better at what? This is a generalisation that will go around in circles. Tablesaws are less physical effort, quicker and produce a better finish off the blade than a handsaw. A handsaw produces less dust and noise and may be more convenient to use if a tablesaw needs to be set up.

In my workshop, working with wood is about choosing your tools accordingly. I rough out with machines (tablesaw, jointer, thickness/planer, bandsaw for resawing) and this saves a great deal of time for the important area, which is joinery and finishing. This is done with handtools. Why? Because some of the joinery is actually easier with handtools, and it is more rewarding to use them. I prefer handcut dovetails and believe they look superior, however most of my friends - and indeed many of the woodworkers in my club - could not tell the difference from a machine-made dovetail.

I do believe that working with handtools offers a different perspective on the tasks. Certainly work practices can differ (such as working from a reference side, and that this permits boards to be used that are not perfectly square or parallel). Does that mean that powertool workers do not think about such matters? I believe that the good woodworkers do so, and in most cases, the best woodworkers use all tools anyway, choosing what is appropriate for the task.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Steve Voigt]

I politely disagree w.r.t. precision. The machines are incredibly good these days. There are specific cases where specialized hand tools are in the same league, but in general the machines rule that roost. As a simple example, holding sub-mil tolerances over surfaces with complex curves is child's play for the right machine.

Certainly true, but we ought to compare apples to apples. I can't imagine anyone choosing between hand tools and a 5-axis VMC. A better comparison might be a chest full of hand tools vs. a garage full of contractor-grade machines. I suspect this is what the OP was thinking of. And I'm sure most of us agree that with hand tools we can achieve as much precision, and often more, than with contractor-grade power tools. Certainly we can achieve nicer surfaces.

Getting back to the original question, it's worth remembering that furniture has nearly always been designed with the method of production in mind. Everything in Queen Anne furniture can not only be done but done efficiently with hand tools because it was designed that way. With Craftsman or Danish Modern furniture, it can be more of an uphill battle, because designers in those styles designed with power tools in mind.

[Jim Koepke]

Very well said Derek, thank you for taking the time.

jtk

[Jeffrey Martel]

I politely disagree w.r.t. precision.

+1

Ease of Accuracy favors hand tools.
Ease of Precision favors power tools.

Even just talking about a simple rip operation. The tablesaw you just set a fence and throw as much stock as you want through it. It will all come out the same. You can't do that nearly as easy on hand tools.

On the flip size, sneaking up on a perfect slip fit tenon requires trial and error with power tools. Hand tools you get it close and then dial it in with a few shavings. More accurate than trying to use your knuckles to bump a fence a few thous. You can get the accuracy of hand tools with machines, but it requires equipment that costs way more than hand tools.

[Brian Ashton]

I'm a newbie woodworker. I have power tools. I've been watching lots of youtube videos on hand tools and I have to say there is a certain "zen" factor - whatever that is, I'm not sure, but I find it very appealing.

I was thinking everything I do with my power tools and then think how I could every live without them.

The thing that comes to mind is a router and router table.

How do hand tool woodworkers do fancy edge work for say a nice art frame?


Just responding to the title question: Hand tools can do more than what power tools can, but slower. There's hundreds of years of history that clearly demonstrates that.

To respond to the body of the post: You'll need time to learn, a few well selected planes and some skill in using them. With that you could produce far more variety than a router could.

[Tony Zaffuto]

i think i may some day retire my table saw, but i think i will always keep a bandsaw and a jointer and planer. If find manual ripping, jointing board faces, and thicknessing tedious and fatiguing and Too slow for how i often need to work.

i find hand tools often easier for finish prep and joint fitting.

Around 2001 & 2002, I did something similar-got rid of my planer, jointer, drill press, bandsaw, but kept the tablesaw (large cabinet saw, which offered a great flat surface for assembly and "scary sharp" sharpenings. I did a number of projects start to finish from dried (both kiln & air) rough lumber to the finish product. I would contend, all woodworkers should at least try becoming "unplugged".

Time slipped by, and I found, due to arthritic hands, and never having enough time, I slowly returned to re-purchasing some power tools. Today, I buy my lumber surfaced both sides, jointed on one. Although I have an 8" Delta jointer, I cannot remember the last time it was used. I do use my table saw, as well as bandsaw.

All in all, I guess I've become a "blended" woodworker, but I do contend, all should unplug for at least a few years.

[William Adams]

I think a more interesting question is what hand tools have machines and CNC made possible / more affordable?

- JointMaker Pro (and the Chopstick Master which was inspired by it) --- certainly these two tools can make cuts which power tools are not readily capable of
- DowelMax (and other) high-precision/accuracy jigs

What other woodworking operations could one make jigs / fixtures / specialized tools for which would be transformative in the same way?

[Pat Barry]

I think that is a little bit flippant. There are a bunch of people who have posted pretty high quality work that was done with hand tools. Brian's work (including a picture frame), Kees' recent cabinet, and Derek's dresser or whatever he calls it are all very well done. I would suggest the original poster look at some of the projects that have been posted on this forum and draw his own conclusions.
Yes - flippant. That was in response to the validity of the question and the comments about the 'Zen like' nature of hand tool woodworking. Derek nailed the best answer. To me, tools are tools and having both power tools and hand tools provides the best of both worlds. I do think the question should be asked in the power tool forum where I contend you will get a completely different set of responses.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Somewhere out there is a video where they take a hand tool guy and a power tool guy and have them make... something... I can't remember, but I believe it had dovetails. The power tool guy had to set up for the cuts, and the hand tool guy had to lay out the cuts; in other words, they had to start from scratch. The power tool guy barely edged out the hand tool guy in speed. I say this not to support or condemn either- but I just thought it was interesting. I am mostly a hand tool guy, and I figured the power tool guy would finish much ahead of the hand tool guy. They both agreed that the hand tool guy had more enjoyment.

Anyway, I really didn't see this thread as being one versus the other, but rather a question about can they both achieve the same task? At first I thought the post was trolling, but then I figured it was just a curiosity from someone who wasn't as up on hand tools as perhaps some of the regulars here. My original response was answering can I MYSELF do everything by hand that a power tool can. Ripping is my limitation there. I quite despise it except in small quantities. :-)

Derek was spot-on about tools being tools, but I do disagree with him on one point- hand tools ARE a religious experience! My workshop is a sanctuary. :-)

[Zach Dillinger]

Tools are nothing more than a means to an end. If you can achieve your goals with power tools, than "more power" to you. Some of us have goals that cannot be met if we use power tools so we don't use them. Most people have a goal that allows them to use both, so they use both. There isn't a merit badge for ripping with a handsaw, and there isn't a PETA campaign (of which I am aware) to "Save the Electrons".

Nothing more, and nothing less.

[Prashun Patel]

Well said, Zach.

[Chris Fournier]

I have to agree with Derek wholeheartedly. I have a full compliment of machines and hand tools, I choose which I use based on the task, simple as that.

I would add that "what is the best..." topics are as pointless as the "either or..." discussions.

[Stew Hagerty]

Brian,

I am a former General Contractor. As such, you know I have an affinity for power tools!
Then in 2008, I came down with a rare neurological disorder that left me in a wheelchair. My right leg is paralyzed, my right arm is significantly weaker than it used to be, and I lost some fine motor control in my right hand. Not to mention unimaginably intense nerve pain.
Believe me, after spending nearly 2 years in bed, I was going stark raving nuts! But then I got a pain pump implant that allowed me to get off of the heavy doses of narcotics and be able to do things, even if it was from a wheelchair.
So I spent 9 months laying out and setting up a fully wheelchair accessible woodshop in my attached and over-sized 3-car garage. Naturally, having been a contractor, I had lots of power tools, and figured that I would be primarily using power tools in my woodworking.

Well it's been almost exactly 6 years since I started my shop, and what I discovered is that the more I work, the more I have come to rely on hand tools. You are right about there being something "Zen", as you put it, or more accurately "uniquely satisfying" about using hand tools. I now have a pretty decent sized collection of hand planes, including 19th century wooden planes, vintage Stanley's, plus modern LV and LN planes. I've also found that many times a handsaw can be quicker, more efficient, and effective than a tablesaw or bandsaw. Chisels are indispensable. Whether for paring, fitting, or chopping, chisels are far far more important than I imagined when I was getting started.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely use power tools. I have a tablesaw with a 50" fence, bandsaw, SCMS, router table, belt/disk combo sander, drill press, mortiser, and planer. Not to mention a traditional workbench that I inherited from my father-in-law, a secondary bench against one wall that also acts as the extension for the SCMS, and a large Craftman tool chest. I'd have a jointer and possibly a drum sander as well, but for some strange reason my wife insists on wanting to be able to park inside. I know, weird right?

As others have stated, just look at some of the truly incredible furniture that was built long before the advent of electric power. I don't know about you, but I am unable to adjust my tablesaw to take off .001" at a pass. However, I can easily do that with either my vintage Stanley #4 or my brand new Lee Valley Bevel-Up Smoother. The latter on even squirrely grained figured woods. There are many cuts that I can make with a good handsaw in a matter of a minute or so that might might take me 10 times that to cut on the tablesaw, or even longer if I would need to make a special jig. Yes, I find a router table to be an indispensable tool, However, you are limited to the bits that you have available. And what bits you have available is directly effected by the size of your wallet. Conversely, there is no limit to the designs you would be capable of creating with a half-set of hollows & rounds. Of course that half-set will set you back a few bucks as well, but it's a once & done thing whereas router bits keep on coming every time you need something new. Not to mention that they don't make bits for every shape imaginable, while with a combination of planes you can make pretty much anything you can think up.

I strongly encourage you to get the book "Hybrid Woodworking" by The Wood Whisperer, Marc Spagnuolo. In it he discusses the blending of both worlds to take advantage of the best of each. Use your power tools for the grunt work; breaking down material on the tablesaw, a drill press makes quick work of a whole series of identical holes at a given depth & spacing, thickness your lumber to a given dimension on the planer, etc... Then fine tune your components, cut your dovetails, and remove all the machine marks by hand.

[Art Mann]

Parts within really narrow parameters. And hand tools can match and even best the precision quite often, it's just never necessary for the things most people would use hand tools to build. A cnc is marvelous for spitting out a stack of plywood constructions, but it's utterly useless for turning a pile of rough lumber into a highboy. And beside, if it could, it would no doubt be copying the design of someone who built it with hand tools, which tells the whole story.

Sorry, but I am a CNC router user and you are not very knowledgeable about the capabilities of CNC machines. If you were to buy a fine quality highboy at an upscale furniture store, the finely sculptured wooden pieces would almost certainly have been carved using a multi axis CNC machine. It just isn't financially feasible to hire craftsmen to spend weeks or months carving such a piece. Individuals can obviously do just as well (see my first post) but only in a custom build one off environment.

[john zulu]

I mainly started as a hand tool wood worker. That was when my projects was solid wood. Not MDF or plywood. My current projects are right now plywood..... I won't say that it is impossible to work with plywood with a handplane but the
speed is too slow. I am very familiar using hand tools with plywood but decided against it since it is too time consuming. Modern day material is not that friendly with hand tools.

There are some joinery that was difficult with power tools. Check on japanese joinery. It really depends on the amount of effort you want to use your tool which is power or handtools.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

Yes - flippant. That was in response to the validity of the question and the comments about the 'Zen like' nature of hand tool woodworking. Derek nailed the best answer. To me, tools are tools and having both power tools and hand tools provides the best of both worlds. I do think the question should be asked in the power tool forum where I contend you will get a completely different set of responses.

I agree I am not sure what is meant by "zen." I enjoy working with hand tools, but I am pretty sure I was not feeling a whole lot of inner peace when I was ripping some 16/4 stock by hand over the weekend. Logic suggests two feet of 16/4 stock is no different than 8 feet of 4/4 stock (which I have done a number of times), but it somehow did not feel that way by the time I was done!

And I agree the real question ought to be whether you find it rewarding, whether you are using power or not.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I had never heard of either of those tools before. It looks like a hand cranked table saw. Does anyone have one? Is that basically what it is?

[george wilson]

Try these with power tools. I cannot saw so delicately with a scroll saw. I'd invariably break the thin elements. Nor have I any method of inlaying the silver wire in the neck of the guitar.

The lute rose was hand carved. The flowers are individually hand carved.

The lion's head could not be carved isuch detail with any power tool or CNC machine I know of. And,I also do machinist work.

[Brian Holcombe]

If you are working to realize personal ability, as a craftsman, I think that understanding and utilizing hand tools is one of the most important steps toward getting there. That is ultimately why I decided I needed to work entirely with hand tools. As a hobbyist, if I go into the shop, setup a machine and make cuts then I am not improving my personal ability. If I layout and cut with hand tools and work through fit ups and layout transfers then I am building a personal foundation for complicated and advanced work that I ultimately want to do.

I want to work with the confidence and ability of a sashimono-shi.

[Stew Hagerty]

OK... I just have to post these:

They are 3 of the magnificent works of the German cabinet maker David Roentgen (1743-1807). Not only are they works of art, but that are also mechanical marvels.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKikHxKeodA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC5Hqk7wl7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPyREzrBekg

And this really should need no introduction to any woodworker. It is, of course, the amazing tool chest of the Massachusetts piano maker Henry O. Studley (1838-1925).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e-SGZ5-0w

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e-SGZ5-0w)

[Mike Henderson]

I think most of us are hybrid woodworkers. I don't want to do stock preparation by hand - it's physically hard and takes a lot of time. It's real grunt work. So I use a jointer, planer and table saw to prepare the stock.

But a lot of the finer work I do by hand.

Mike

[Stew Hagerty]

I think most of us are hybrid woodworkers. I don't want to do stock preparation by hand - it's physically hard and takes a lot of time. It's real grunt work. So I use a jointer, planer and table saw to prepare the stock.

But a lot of the finer work I do by hand.

Mike


Bingo...
Just like I said earlier, Hybrid Woodworking is really the best of both worlds.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

A number of ancient craftsmen supposedly would include a deliberate flaw in their work to remind people that "only God is perfect." I don't know if you do that. If you don't, I'm going to say that is way too nice for any sane person to use it.

[Tony Wilkins]

Not a hybrid thing about my woodworking. Totally by hand - and bad.

[Brian Holcombe]

A number of ancient craftsmen supposedly would include a deliberate flaw in their work to remind people that "only God is perfect." I don't know if you do that. If you don't, I'm going to say that is way too nice for any sane person to use it.

They were classically trained in cover stories as well :D

[Tom Vanzant]

Why would I deliberately add another flaw?

[Pat Barry]

Why would I deliberately add another flaw?
Once you put in that first flaw it takes the pressure off you for the rest of the project.

[Chris Hachet]

I am 100% a power tool woodworker - - well almost. I once took a tour of Williamsburg, VA and inspected some of the exquisite furniture there that had been built there centuries ago. Based on that experience, I would say that just about anything that can be done with wood can be done with nothing but hand tools. I just don't have the patience or skill and have no desire to learn.

And there is nothing wrong with that at all. Different strokes for different folks.

[Allan Speers]

One thing powered-tool users can do, much better than me, is cough.

- They get a lot more practice, what with all that fine sawdust floating about. :rolleyes:

[Jeff Heath]

The answer to the original question, for me, is yes. However, I don't want to. There are quite a few functions that power tools cannot duplicate with the same level of success, or with the same result.

When my career as a woodworker first started out 32 years ago (geesh, that makes me feel old) I didn't have any money for power tools.

Now, I balance my desire for speed with my desire for peace in the workshop. I use my power tools to provide flat and level stock, and pretty much take it from there with hand tools. Except cabinet work with plywood.....that falls under the category of "get er' dunn", and as fast as possible. That's when my Festool track saw, table saw, and Omnijig dovetail jig come out for speed. Hand cutting dovetails on 40 drawers for a big cabinet job is a waste of effort and time.

When I was 20, I certainly had the energy to resaw larger planks with a rip saw. Now, I let my woodmizer do the heavy lifting for me for logs, and I've got a big bandsaw for dry wood.

My .02.

[Darrell LaRue]

The thing that comes to mind is a router and router table.
How do hand tool woodworkers do fancy edge work for say a nice art frame?


Easily! Here is a picture frame I did for my SIL for Xmas a few years ago. This was made from butternut, finished with shellac. I bought a crummy frame from some discount shop for the glass & matt, and built a new frame around them.

332989332990332991332992

Darrell

[Brian Ashton]

Sorry, but I am a CNC router user and you are not very knowledgeable about the capabilities of CNC machines. If you were to buy a fine quality highboy at an upscale furniture store, the finely sculptured wooden pieces would almost certainly have been carved using a multi axis CNC machine. It just isn't financially feasible to hire craftsmen to spend weeks or months carving such a piece. Individuals can obviously do just as well (see my first post) but only in a custom build one off environment.


You might be right there, but if the furniture is being sold as high end, the parts would be finalized by a human to give them a much higher look of quality that a machine simply isn't capable of. Yes run of the mill furniture is often sold with machined parts on them and it shows! Machines just don't have that level of quality. TBH, I'd suspect that, considering high quality furniture isn't done in high numbered production runs (lets face it no many people wanting highboys), that many of the parts would most likely be made in some third world country - by hand. When all your job is, is to produce a cabriole leg with a acanthus leaf knee and ball and claw foot day in and day out you can produce them at phenomenal speed, and do a not so bad job, and! better than a machine.

[Art Mann]

There are videos on Youtube of CNC machines carving all sorts of intricately designed furniture parts such as you describe. They take minutes rather than hours to produce. They look as good as what a fine craftsman would produce. I just don't think you are aware of how far along the technology has come. I am sure there are custom carved pieces that couldn't be duplicated by a machine but you are not going to see this sort of thing in a furniture store.

[Jim Koepke]

There are videos on Youtube of CNC machines carving all sorts of intricately designed furniture parts such as you describe. They take minutes rather than hours to produce. They look as good as what a fine craftsman would produce. I just don't think you are aware of how far along the technology has come. I am sure there are custom carved pieces that couldn't be duplicated by a machine but you are not going to see this sort of thing in a furniture store.

Surely machines have advanced to the point of replacing humans in many endeavors. In my own shop I would rather listen to music instead of machines.

The local PBS station on Saturday afternoon has two programs The Woodwright's Shop and The Woodshop. One is mostly hand tools and the other is almost all power tools. They are just different ways of doing things.

Fast forward a century or so. There may be a bit of awe around the dining room hutch when a young bride tells her friends and family that her mother gave that to her as a wedding gift and it was hand made by her mother's grandmother (or grandfather).

I am sure it will be more awe inspiring than the story about how it was made on a CNC machine where her mother's grandfather (or grandmother) was a machine operator.

Here is a practice piece I made:

333006

These were done by hand. Using a router and some skill it is possible to do some rather fancy designs in joinery a hand tool might not be able to do.

What matters more is the satisfaction of doing it the way I do.

jtk

[William Adams]

My big problem w/ machine routing of complex 3D shapes is that it won’t consider wood grain and features as a human carver will, nor adjust the design for some fragile bit breaking off.

The pieces also tend towards a boring sameness where every part is identical, w/o any expressive variation.

[Ray Selinger]

Custom rifles are a bit of a joke, most have fiberglass stocks from the same mold. Even the beautiful wood stocked ones are not fitted. But only hand tools can get you a rifle stock that truly fits .

[george wilson]

Surely machines have advanced to the point of replacing humans in many endeavors. In my own shop I would rather listen to music instead of machines.

The local PBS station on Saturday afternoon has two programs The Woodwright's Shop and The Woodshop. One is mostly hand tools and the other is almost all power tools. They are just different ways of doing things.

Fast forward a century or so. There may be a bit of awe around the dining room hutch when a young bride tells her friends and family that her mother gave that to her as a wedding gift and it was hand made by her mother's grandmother (or grandfather).

I am sure it will be more awe inspiring than the story about how it was made on a CNC machine where her mother's grandfather (or grandmother) was a machine operator.

Here is a practice piece I made:

333006

These were done by hand. Using a router and some skill it is possible to do some rather fancy designs in joinery a hand tool might not be able to do.

What matters more is the satisfaction of doing it the way I do.

jtk

Jim,I fail to understand your statement that a router can do things that can't be done with hand tools. That is just not true,unless a person has just limited hand tool skills. You have to include everyone's skills in such a statement.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim,I fail to understand your statement that a router can do things that can't be done with hand tools. That is just not true,unless a person has just limited hand tool skills. You have to include everyone's skills in such a statement.

As usual, you are right. I was a little sleepy and sloppy when that was posted last night.

jtk

[george wilson]

Well,I am not always right,and mess up when I'm tired,too. But thank you for your generous comment!

[steven c newman]

There IS one thing a power tool can do that hand tools can not.....they can take off a finger in the blink of an eye....

[Allan Speers]

There IS one thing a power tool can do that hand tools can not.....they can take off a finger in the blink of an eye....


Your chisels must not be sharp enough!

[steven c newman]

Something about the "OW!" factor prevents that..
333048
Unless the hand is completely numb....

[Tony Wilkins]

There IS one thing a power tool can do that hand tools can not.....they can take off a finger in the blink of an eye....
It takes a lot more commitment to take of a finger with a handsaw!

[Allan Speers]

It takes a lot more commitment to take of a finger with a handsaw!


Yeah, but watch out for the deadly "Disston kickback" !

[Zach Dillinger]

Yeah, but watch out for the deadly "Disston kickback" !

Not really a fair comparison... Handsaws come with their own pushsticks..

[george wilson]

Again,this thread falls into that category so often launched into this forum again and again: THE SILLY THREAD!!!:):):)

For many years,in the 18th. C. shop,as in the other Historic Trades Shops in Wmsbg., we worked by hand.

I am now a lot older,arthritic,and with several worn out joints. So,power tools serve as "grunts",to plane wood down,do large sawing,etc.. But,they cannot do the fine carving,sculpting,and other work involved in much of the work I do. A violin,especially,has carved surfaces all over it,which cannot be done with the normal power tools that might be found in the workshops of our members. Even in factories,where special machines do exist that can carve violin tops,backs,and necks,you will not find masterpieces being produced. Only student grade instruments will be emerging from such places. And,many operations STILL must be done by hand regardless.

The finest instruments of ANY kind must be done by hand WITH that most important thing that all machinery lacks: JUDGEMENT. Judgement on selecting the most suitable wood,judgement in adjusting the arches to get the most tone from a certain piece of wood(all pieces of wood of the same species have unique acoustic properties),judgement in individually thicknessing (rather,graduating: Tops and backs are not the same thickness all over) the tops and backs,again,to get the best tone from them,and a thousand other little things that add up to making an instrument of truly high grade,which mindless machines cannot do. I won't go into excessive detail here.

Stradivari had workmen who,in their own right were master craftsmen,but mostly served as HIS grunts. The master himself added those final touches of judgement which made his instruments what they are.

So,no,machines cannot do what hand workmanship and human experience and judgement can,useful as they are for many operations. They won't make masterpiece violins,carve like Grinling Gibbons,or do the fine work that a few of you may be forgetting about.

[Brian Holcombe]

Even shops like PP Mobler, who rely on CNC equipment and prior to that other duplicating machines, are finishing by hand. When even elimating a few hours of human labor component could be a huge benefit to cost savings, they still continue to hand work.

Handwork is sought after both in terms of those who wish to duplicate (they seek the appearance of handwork) and those that seek to collect masterworks. Does anyone romance about how much machine work is required in a piece of furniture? Or anything else?

The absolute best print of a masterpiece painting would barely get a glance or moments worth of contemplation, but a woodblock print, that which can be duplicated on end, still encourages the viewer to explore it's intricacies. Why? Because we like to ponder how difficult it is, admire the master of the carver, the artist and the printer.

Skilled labor is a luxury and has been as long as civilization has existed.

[Mike Henderson]

Handwork is sought after both in terms of those who wish to duplicate (they seek the appearance of handwork) and those that seek to collect masterworks. Does anyone romance about how much machine work is required in a piece of furniture? Or anything else?

The absolute best print of a masterpiece painting would barely get a glance or moments worth of contemplation, but a woodblock print, that which can be duplicated on end, still encourages the viewer to explore it's intricacies. Why? Because we like to ponder how difficult it is, admire the master of the carver, the artist and the printer.

Skilled labor is a luxury and has been as long as civilization has existed.
The problem that I've encountered, and I hear from other woodworkers, is that people do not wish to pay for handwork. They may appreciate that the piece of furniture was made by hand, but they buy machine made (factory) furniture for their home.

I believe one reason for this attitude is that people do not look at furniture as permanent, but as something to use for a period of time, then to discard. Styles change, tastes change, they move to a new house, and they change their furniture. So they buy good looking factory made furniture. And given their attitude, I have to agree that it's the right thing for them to do.

The only "heirloom" furniture that people seem to hang on to is something made by an ancestor.

Mike

[Sam Maloof made a living selling hand made furniture but I submit that the reason people bought it had nothing to do with the fact that it was hand made (and Sam used a lot of power tools) but with the fact that it had Sam's signature on the bottom. It was an art investment. Unfortunately, coming up with a furniture design that will appeal to collectors is extremely difficult. Many have tried and many have gone broke.]

[Brian Holcombe]

Sam's signature has weight because of the implied quality that his customer base had been buying for the length of his career. It held more weight at the end of his career, but without the career behind it where would it fall?

I'm hardly surprised that regular folks aren't after handmade furniture. Furniture collectors and people who are buying luxuries are a different group of buyers, they're a group of buyers much more relevant to those selling handmade furniture, this doesn't change much over time. Regular folks in the 18th century weren't commissioning furniture from the same people making it for Royalty. They have different priorities and that makes perfect sense.

Handwork does not, alone, sell furniture or make a piece of furniture better or worse than another. The design and quality of production are part and parcel.

[george wilson]

I very,very seldom find a piece of machine made furniture whose designer had any idea how to properly design things!

[Tom Stenzel]

In all of this discussion the one thing that a power tool can do that a hand tool can't do has been missed - make the electric meter spin like a top, run up the light bill.

Yes, it's snowing out, I've not able to do much but think silly thoughts.

-Tom

[Art Mann]

I have to take issue with your assessment. If you look at the power consumption of stationary power tools, it is almost irrelevant in comparison to the material cost of building nice furniture. For example, you can surface plane more rough sawn 4/4 material to 3/4 in 10 minutes than it takes to complete most furniture projects. Assuming a 240V, 15A planer, the electricity would cost around 6 cents in most locations. On the other hand, it would take days to plane that much lumber by hand. The cost of heating a shop in winter for several days is huge by comparison. There are good reasons to use hand tools only but saving money isn't one of them.


In all of this discussion the one thing that a power tool can do that a hand tool can't do has been missed - make the electric meter spin like a top, run up the light bill.

Yes, it's snowing out, I've not able to do much but think silly thoughts.

-Tom

[Archie England]

gosh, that's just downright depressing. :D

[Robert Engel]

Like Henderson said, you can't make a living with hand tools.
I, like many, use hand tools for the therapeutic value.

Then I go rub some Bengay on my shoulder after an hour with my jointer plane and a table top........

[Brent Cutshall]

I don't know about that. I know some people that make their entire living on their pieces and it might not matter here but I don't have a job (only because I don't have a car or drivers license and I'm still in high school) and I make a quite a shiny penny off of carvings and other pieces on top of what I make selling vegetables and I don't use power tools. At all.

[Warren Mickley]

Like Henderson said, you can't make a living with hand tools.


I have done this full time for three decades. It is shocking what people will write.

[

[Roderick Gentry]

- Does hand work have to be used to make items like musical instruments? We don't really know, the march of CNC has not gone far enough. There are many old trades that are being sucked into mechanization, like tailoring. That is a far more handsy thing that woodworking, but the market makes it possible to make the investment to get to bespoke levels of customization. Something like guitar making is different, because the last 50 years have seen to it that the market searches out meaningless variations in style and format that fragments production in meaningless ways. If a craft sets out to fragment itself, then the mechanization is harder to do because the investment level isn't possible. Stradivarius would be an interesting case, because whatever made those violins better, is not something that you can really see just by looking at them. Tim White of guitar accoustic fame, once said you could map out everything we needed to know about guitar acoustics for a few tens of K, but nobody has ever been willing to make the investment. It has more to do with the market than the method.

- At least as many of the injuries I have suffered in woodworking over 40 years have been the result of handwork. You can certainly amputate a finger with an axe, and the level of ignorance required to do things in the wrong way is probably similar. My hand woodworking tends to run in concert with working directly with trees, and that can get your killed or injured in a hurry.

- The idea that one should work entirely with hand or power tools seems to be a new thing, at least as regards WW since the advent of power tools. We aren't talking an arts and crafts deal here, this is all recreational, not the factory vs the workshop. There are other dichotomies possible:

1) Quiet vs noisy. I have been lucky to have a free standing shop since the kids came along. But had I been working in the basement, as I once did... Well hollow chisel mortisers are a lot quieter than mallets and chisels. Sometimes the speed of power tools means a lot of noise in a few minutes will save a less noise spread over hours.

2) Dusty vs not dusty. Usually a win for hand tools, but some tools like planers and bandsaws make less of a mess than the hand tool variation if the extraction is good. I have thought of building a bench that could survive out of doors, but a lot of my hand tools are wood, and are best kept out of direct sunlight,and moving my bench outside with attendant tools is impractical. I never use my TS in the shop, but it does move easily out of doors, which saves on dust vs hand tools.

3) Early vs late. Lots vs. little. So when I started, the reason I bought an Inca planer/jointer was to make my beech woodworking bench. Ironically I found a guy with beech, and sent him the cut list. I thought he would just send me enough raw wood to fit the bill, but he laminated or dimensioned every piece, a great deal. But my approach was still reasonable. You can do a lot with just a table saw and a planer. In the absence of those tools, I would have needed a boatload of hand tools to do the same work, including a bench that was the object of the build. As you gain experience you learn more ways to leverage stuff, but it seemed like that was the best way to start out at the time. (Late 70s)

4)... Skills vs less skilled... Production vs, tinkering. There are lots of dichotomies.

5) Diversity vs lack of it. So with hand tools there is a far wider range of possible effects than with the average collection of power tools. CNC is a game changer there. It makes complexity in design, in certain instances, far more likely and easy to achieve. 3D printing (not woodworking for the most part), takes this a further step, complex shapes are actually faster and cheaper to model.

6) Jigged vs un-jigged/Certainty vs uncertainty. Both power and hand tools have that woorkmanship of risk (design and disaster in execution of design risk/potential, not danger to the body alone) vs. certainty dichotomy. Probably the riskiest are things like power sanders that can cut in almost any direction. Chainsaw carving. Even the lowly gouge is more jigged to the cut with it's bevel, than something like a Lancelot. Things like table saws and planes are pretty certain in the outcome, though either can be used freehand to an extent.

[Brian Holcombe]

Tailoring is an excellent comparison. They too have something lost between man and machine, two areas that must be done by hand properly are the shoulders and canvassing the chest.

People like Mariano Rubinacci stay in business not because people romance a lost art, but because man exceeds the machine.

[Art Mann]

In the town where I live, there is a furniture maker who uses all hand tools exclusively except for planing of rough sawn material. I don't know him but he has been making a living that way for several years. As best I can recall, his furniture is priced at 2X or 3X what you could buy similar furniture for in a fine furniture store. There are people who will buy hand tool furniture at a premium price, even if it looks and works no better than power tool made furniture.

[Roderick Gentry]

That was then Brian. :). Just thinking of the efforts that are being made by guys like Jeffrey to set up factories that do the bespoke canvasing by machine on blind stitching machines. The body can be measured in a laser booth, CAD and CNC can do the design and cutting, and much of the hand work can be eliminated if one throws enough money at it.

[Roderick Gentry]

In the town where I live, there is a furniture maker who uses all hand tools exclusively except for planing of rough sawn material. I don't know him but he has been making a living that way for several years. As best I can recall, his furniture is priced at 2X or 3X what you could buy similar furniture for in a fine furniture store. There are people who will buy hand tool furniture at a premium price, even if it looks and works no better than power tool made furniture.

My Father in Law had a retirement shop and he sold shaker furniture in it. He added a line of windsors. They were really beautiful, but despite looking great and being made in seemingly competent small factories that might have an attention to detail, all the chairs fell apart. I have some Windsors rescued from a bar, and despite having to saddle them for greater comfort, they are impossible to destroy, but heavy. Beech. Well made furniture by hand will outlast the other options, but it isn't the power or hand tools that make it special, it is the taking of no shortcuts. By definition, a competent person who is blowing time out the window doing things by hand, should get something for it, but one never knows.

[Brian Sommers]

I live in Holmes County Ohio - Amish country.

There is a young Amish woodworking about 2 blocks where I live and he is 9 months out. When I was visiting him that day, he was working on a table that he sold for $4000 and told me he had sold another table for $12000. Now he didn't show me his books, so maybe he was making it all up, but I doubt it. I think he is doing very well. He does everything by hand.

[Brian Holcombe]

That was then Brian. :). Just thinking of the efforts that are being made by guys like Jeffrey to set up factories that do the bespoke canvasing by machine on blind stitching machines. The body can be measured in a laser booth, CAD and CNC can do the design and cutting, and much of the hand work can be eliminated if one throws enough money at it.

That is current, not then.

Sure, it is accurate, but it is only as good as the program. It's great at duplicating things, beyond that it has it's limitations. Humans, especially those with experience, are employing incredibly complex decision making very rapidly.

I have little interest in making the world out of plastic and making everything a commodity. I feel that generally speaking people have had their fill of stuff that has been pumped out of a factory, those that still want it know where they can find it, but the new search is for that which was seemingly consumed by the machine age. Everything the same is boring, they want the romance of applied intuition, skill, and expertise; the virtuoso's performance.

That which is hand made, and made well offers a depth of user experience which cannot be reproduced as a commodity. I have had young people walk through my shop and they never ask me why I don't simply chuck wood into a machine and have it churn out the work, they're asking me to explain how a plane makes a beautiful surface.

[Zach Dillinger]

I live in Holmes County Ohio - Amish country.

There is a young Amish woodworking... He does everything by hand.

Are you sure? Lots of Amish use power tools, they just don't use on-the-grid electricity to power them. Diesel generators powering hydraulic or pneumatic systems are very common amongst the Amish here in my area.

[george wilson]

If you cannot tell the difference between a piece of hand made furniture vs. machine made,something is wrong. Either the craftsman is not very skilled,or the viewer hasn't sufficient aesthetic comprehension to appreciate the object being viewed.


as for everything you need to know about guitars being available in 10,000K,I say BALONEY! You cannot accurately quantify the individual hardness or flexibility of wood,or the differences in sizing arches or braces needed to get the best possible tone. The differences in tone can be huge if the builder has the judgement and experience to know what to do.

Why keep this silly thread going? It just exposes the lack of understanding of some people. The simple truth is YES,hand tools CAN do MUCH more than power tools. The World's greatest masterpieces in museums were all hand made(until you get into the bent tubing furniture of a modern and decadent period and its ilk.)

[Art Mann]

The one thing that power tools can do that hand tools can't is produce attractive and durable furniture and cabinets at a price point that the average guy can own a house full of it. That is where I am. I am not trying to produce artwork, copy museum pieces from centuries past or demonstrate my advanced skill set. I want to build things the average guy can afford. As a small example, I make and sell premium coasters that are CNC carved with 19th century quilt patterns. I have altered the geometric patterns to produce defects reminiscent of hand work. I never claim they are hand made. I sell a lot of them. If I did them by chip carving, hardly anyone would buy them because they would cost too much.

[george wilson]

I can't argue with you on machines making cheaper things. In the early 19th. C.,goods were actually boastfully labeled "machine made". They considered machine made goods superior at the time. At least for the average consumer. Machines WERE making things more affordable,and still are. There's hand made and hand made. Some is great,and some not. Depends on the skill of the maker,and also what his goal was.

When it comes to fine carved,inlaid quality work,or sensitive musical instruments,machines cannot reach that level.

[Art Mann]

No argument there!

[Daniel Rode]

Are you sure? Lots of Amish use power tools, they just don't use on-the-grid electricity to power them. Diesel generators powering hydraulic or pneumatic systems are very common amongst the Amish here in my area.

I buy my wood from an Amish kiln in Middlefield. Central heating, telephone, electric lights, forklift and a credit card machine. The Amish are practical and each community sets the rules as it see fit.

The owner and I were talking a couple of weeks ago. He wants to start woodworking as hobby and is most interested in turning. He has no plans to use treadle lathe :)

[Mike Henderson]

I visited an Amish woodworking shop in PA a couple of years ago. Except for the fact that there were no electric lights, it looked EXACTLY like one of our shops. They had removed the electric motors and replaced them with hydraulic motors, and the hydraulic system was driven by a diesel engine at one end of the shop. He had a table saw, jointer, lathe, bandsaw, etc.

And the work he did was commercial quality work - which means so-so work.

He had a bunch of rocking chair crest rails stacked up, each with a design in the crest rail (maybe a windmill). I asked him if he carved those in the evening. He said, "No, I buy those from my supplier. They use a big press and a die and press that design into the crest rail - it's not carved."

I thought it was interesting that he was doing exactly what any other commercial woodworker would do. He just attached the "Amish made" label to it and people thought it was all hand made because the Amish don't use electricity.

Mike

[Warren Mickley]

In the town where I live, there is a furniture maker who uses all hand tools exclusively except for planing of rough sawn material. I don't know him but he has been making a living that way for several years. As best I can recall, his furniture is priced at 2X or 3X what you could buy similar furniture for in a fine furniture store. There are people who will buy hand tool furniture at a premium price, even if it looks and works no better than power tool made furniture.

I have been doing hand tool work my whole life. As far as I know, nobody ever paid a nickel extra for hand work. They came to me for one of these reasons:
1. They wanted higher quality
2. They couldn't find anyone else to do it. (There are 2000 woodworking shops within 20 miles)
3. Cheaper than machine work.

[Jim Koepke]

3. Cheaper than machine work.

Machines take set up time. If it is for 100 pieces, the cost of set up can be spread over all of the work. If it is for one piece, that one piece must pay for it all.

jtk

[Adam Cruea]

I've debated throwing my hat into the ring here, but what the heck. . .

Then answer is yes and no. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Machines have the advantage that they can mass produce easily. One person, no matter how good and strong, will never be able to keep up. Machines may be able to produce 2 or 3 bed frames in a day; a human may be able to make a simple one in the same time.

Hand tools have the advantage in ornateness and low-quantity items due to much less setup. A machine will never be able to make a carved headboard in the time a skilled human can. Ever.

Machines excel at repeatable, lower-skill operations (flattening boards, finish sanding, drilling a hole in a widget). Humans exceed where variable touch, decisions, foresight, and skill is needed.

[george wilson]

Well put,Adam.

[Chris Hachet]

Well put,Adam.


Agreed. For me the real metric is enjoyment, and I simply enjoy hand tools more. i do not think of power tool woodworkers as lesser or unskilled. Many of them are much more skilled than I am.

It's just my free time, and I prefer to use it with hand tools vs power for the most part.

[Pat Barry]

Machines take set up time. If it is for 100 pieces, the cost of set up can be spread over all of the work. If it is for one piece, that one piece must pay for it all.

jtk
I agree that machines take some setup time, but so does hand work. Its really a question of using the tools that YOU have at YOUR disposal to get your work done. It is obvious that once the machine is setup that lots of material can be cranked through it. I think there is no doubt that hand work can be more effective at some tasks as well, take for example half blind dovetails. I can do them with my router and dovetail bit after a bit of setup time but they don't look nearly as elegant as the hand cut work that I've seen from Brian and Derek and many other here with intricate variable sizing and shaping. I also know that machines can be very effective for doing some trivial and often mundane tasks such ripping and crosscutting. I use both machines and hand tools and I am perfectly happy with it. I can't believe someone actually coined the term 'hybrid woodworking' to describe what most people actually do. I just call it woodworking.

[Roy Lindberry]

I'm a newbie woodworker. I have power tools. I've been watching lots of youtube videos on hand tools and I have to say there is a certain "zen" factor - whatever that is, I'm not sure, but I find it very appealing.

I was thinking everything I do with my power tools and then think how I could every live without them.

The thing that comes to mind is a router and router table.

How do hand tool woodworkers do fancy edge work for say a nice art frame?

This particular one may be a little overkill, but this is how it can be done. It was far more common (especially among English cabinetmakers vs. American) to use a series of hollows and rounds rather than a dedicated plane per profile. Much like you can invest in complex shaper bits, or you can gradually build a profile with a series of simpler bits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcQap0qJiA
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAcQap0qJiA)

You might also like this short video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17J1uSHHWgQ

[Stephen Clement]

Hand tool skills allow you to build all sorts of things a power tool wood worker would really struggle to build...also think of all of the Sam Maloof and Krenov style modern stuff that is just gorgeous and full of compound curves easily made with hand tools and near impossible with power tools.

...or the grace of a Windsor chair made by hand vs one made with all power tools...

To be fair, any piece can be accomplished by both all hand tools and all power tools (or a mix). The real difference is in how many you are making. A lot of complicated tasks are easy to do for one piece by hand but require a dedicated jig for a power tool that may take longer to build than to do it by hand. However, once you have that jig, you can crank the piece out with power tools much faster than with hand tools. Most of us weekend warriors are making only 1 or 2 of a piece, which is why many hobbiest fine woodworkers lean towards hand tools. You eliminate the time designing and building jigs and spend it building the piece itself.

I'd venture a guess that there is not a single professional woodworker in a developed country whose sole income is from hand tool woodworking because it is so hard to be profitable. Many (I'm not knowledgeable to say most, but I suspect it is most or all) professional hand tool woodworkers get significant income from teaching, writing, a "regular" job, or their spouses. The professionals build/buy jigs that can recreate multiples of a piece or jigs that are flexible enough to precisely do multiple complex tasks (e.g., pantorouter templates, precision adjustable tapering jigs, etc).

So I agree with Chris' statement if I can caveat the term "struggle" to mean "need specialized jigs or tools".

[Brian Holcombe]

Your guess is very incorrect. There is one participating in this thread and there are specialities of craftsmen who do just that and make their living. Sashimono-Shi have a been a regular point of conversation recently, many of them use entirely hand tools.

[Warren Mickley]

Today I had a nice chat with my neighbor, a 32 year old who farms with horses. He doesn't write books and his wife doesn't have a job. He recalled the time I made a manteltree in 2008. This fireplace beam was made for a nice house in 1750, but it was removed in 1928 and is still displayed in the Philadelphia Art Museum. The present owner of the house wanted to replace the beam.

It was made from a white oak timber 21 X 22, 14 feet long, with a large moulding cut out of the solid. The moulding was 15 inches tall and 5 inches deep and went the length of the timber with a nice return carved in at each end. Here is the one in the museum
333319333324
I have to chuckle thinking of someone doing this on a little router table or with " pantorouter templates, precision adjustable tapering jigs, etc"

[Jim Koepke]

I have to chuckle thinking of someone doing this on a little router table or with " pantorouter templates, precision adjustable tapering jigs, etc"

It makes me wonder what kind of powered tool can cut reeds in the middle of a board or panel like a hand plane can:

333330

Sometimes I have fun with people who like to sound like they know how things are done. Someone will look at the reeds and say, "oh, you did that with a router." I will ask them how much they know about routers and ask them how a router can do such.

I guess one could buy a shaper and the associated tooling. Likely easier to do it by hand in anything less than a molding production shop.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Today I had a nice chat with my neighbor, a 32 year old who farms with horses. He doesn't write books and his wife doesn't have a job. He recalled the time I made a manteltree in 2008. This fireplace beam was made for a nice house in 1750, but it was removed in 1928 and is still displayed in the Philadelphia Art Museum. The present owner of the house wanted to replace the beam.

It was made from a white oak timber 21 X 22, 14 feet long, with a large moulding cut out of the solid. The moulding was 15 inches tall and 5 inches deep and went the length of the timber with a nice return carved in at each end. Here is the one in the museum
333319333324
I have to chuckle thinking of someone doing this on a little router table or with " pantorouter templates, precision adjustable tapering jigs, etc"

That's really wild! I would be very proud to have such work in my house.

[Pat Barry]

It makes me wonder what kind of powered tool can cut reeds in the middle of a board or panel like a hand plane can:

333330

Sometimes I have fun with people who like to sound like they know how things are done. Someone will look at the reeds and say, "oh, you did that with a router." I will ask them how much they know about routers and ask them how a router can do such.

I guess one could buy a shaper and the associated tooling. Likely easier to do it by hand in anything less than a molding production shop.

jtk
I'm stumped Jim, as to why a router / router table or guide / and similar shaped bit couldn't be used to cut those reeds into the board just like you are demonstrating. I must be missing something. In my mind I can see doing that pretty easily except for getting the matching bit to give the reed profile you have, but I bet you could find something very close to it. See, to me, there are multiple solutions to a given problem. I have a router table therefore that's what I would use. You have that nifty hand plane and a variety of cutters, maybe you even made your own cutter profiles which certainly gives you a degree of freedom that someone working with router bits alone doesn't get.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm stumped Jim, as to why a router / router table or guide / and similar shaped bit couldn't be used to cut those reeds into the board just like you are demonstrating. I must be missing something. In my mind I can see doing that pretty easily except for getting the matching bit to give the reed profile you have, but I bet you could find something very close to it. See, to me, there are multiple solutions to a given problem. I have a router table therefore that's what I would use. You have that nifty hand plane and a variety of cutters, maybe you even made your own cutter profiles which certainly gives you a degree of freedom that someone working with router bits alone doesn't get.

Surely your experience is different than mine. I have never seen a router bit with a 6" shaft. That is what would be needed to be able to produce the reeds in the middle of a 1X12.

jtk

[Mike Henderson]

Surely your experience is different than mine. I have never seen a router bit with a 6" shaft. That is what would be needed to be able to produce the reeds in the middle of a 1X12.

jtk
I've never done it, but I think you could do a jig that held the router above the work and use a bit that would produce the proper pattern. You'd step between the reeds with an edge guide, just as you would with a hand tool.

It's similar to how you do reeds on a turned piece on a lathe, except you index the piece instead of moving the router.

Or use an Incra fence and the router bit on a router table and step the work by one reed each time.

But in any case, I know some creative woodworker will be able to figure out a technique.

Mike

[george wilson]

Anyone who is a true artist will know from a brief examination,that a CNC machine cannot approach the quality of a hand carved piece of work. A master carver would laugh at a CNC carved piece. The router bits always leave rounded cuts where they end. A VEE parting tool will leave an easily recognizable cut. That is just ONE factor . I don't feel like writing a treatise about it. You guys need to be careful where your information is coming from. Thats the trouble with a forum. Everyone chimes in,and you have no idea of some people's expertise or experience. Especially when you have seen no pictures of their work. Even at that,pictures may not tell the whole story.

[Jim Koepke]

I've never done it, but I think you could do a jig that held the router above the work and use a bit that would produce the proper pattern. You'd step between the reeds with an edge guide, just as you would with a hand tool.

It's similar to how you do reeds on a turned piece on a lathe, except you index the piece instead of moving the router.

Or use an Incra fence and the router bit on a router table and step the work by one reed each time.

But in any case, I know some creative woodworker will be able to figure out a technique.

Mike

I have thought of this a few times. It would take a bit shaped like a quarter round, coming to a flat end instead of having a guide bearing. The finished work wouldn't have the square edge of the side quirks. So yes, it might be possible to make a similar profile with a router. It seems to be less work and set up with a hand plane. At least as long as the blade is already sharp. There are similar abilities with hand tools that would take a lot of set up with powered tools.

When it comes to ripping, a table saw can beat a handsaw any day.

When it comes to reeds down the middle of a board, my guess is I could knock out a couple of 6' pieces before the first pass is set up on a power tool.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Forgot to mention above. Roy Underhill once demonstrated a beading plane on his program. It was made to cut multiple beads one at a time. It would cut the first bead and then the sole of the plane was made to use the first bead as a guide. It could do this until one either ran out of board or their arms reached their limit.

jtk

[Art Mann]

I have done exactly what Mike is saying on more than one occasion and I didn't need an Incra fence to do it. All it takes is a router table and a plunging bit of the correct profile. You don't turn the board on edge. You run it flat. You adjust the fence according to the spacing you want and make multiple passes. Of course, you can do the same thing with a hand held router equipped with an edge guide but it would be a little more trouble. The place to look for a bit of the correct profile is under CNC router bits.

It would not take more than a minute or two to set up the router bit to the correct height. Adjusting the fence for successive passes takes less than a minute if you are experienced at this sort of thing.

[Jim Koepke]

In this case, all you need is a correctly sized ball nose bit. Of course, you can do the same thing with a hand held router equipped with an edge guide but it would be a little more trouble.

I am confused. Doesn't a ball nose bit make flutes which are the reverse or opposite of reeds?

jtk

[Pat Barry]

I have thought of this a few times. It would take a bit shaped like a quarter round, coming to a flat end instead of having a guide bearing. The finished work wouldn't have the square edge of the side quirks. So yes, it might be possible to make a similar profile with a router. It seems to be less work and set up with a hand plane. At least as long as the blade is already sharp. There are similar abilities with hand tools that would take a lot of set up with powered tools.

When it comes to ripping, a table saw can beat a handsaw any day.

When it comes to reeds down the middle of a board, my guess is I could knock out a couple of 6' pieces before the first pass is set up on a power tool.

jtk
I am not seeing the detail of these reeds in your pictures Jim. Can you get a closeup that would show the detail please?

[Art Mann]

Yes. After studying the photo more carefully, I went back and edited my post to reflect what you are looking for. Here is a link to some bits you could use.

http://www.southeasttool.com/catalog/SEToolCatalog2015.html

Look on page 22 (bottom of page) or 30-31 on the viewer.


I am confused. Doesn't a ball nose bit make flutes which are the reverse or opposite of reeds?

jtk

[Malcolm McLeod]

In the particular instance of the beaded panel Jim references, I believe a search for "flat bottom round over bit" used in a router would get you close (excepting the edges).

In the bigger picture, the argument boils down to one of money. If you have unlimited funds, a machine can be designed/built/bought to do anything at any level of precision. If you aren't on the governments budget, hand work may be your chosen path?

Someone smarter than me once told me that every digit to the right of the decimal, specifying precision, adds two digits to the left of the decimal on the cost. ...To each their own.

[Chris Hachet]

In the particular instance of the beaded panel Jim references, I believe a search for "flat bottom round over bit" used in a router would get you close (excepting the edges).

In the bigger picture, the argument boils down to one of money. If you have unlimited funds, a machine can be designed/built/bought to do anything at any level of precision. If you aren't on the governments budget, hand work may be your chosen path?

Someone smarter than me once told me that every digit to the right of the decimal, specifying precision, adds two digits to the left of the decimal on the cost. ...To each their own.

Exactly why we went to the moon and the Russians did not. That being said....

[Art Mann]

Pardon me for getting way off topic. Back in the late 1970's, I bought a Craftsman molding head that fit on a table saw. It came with a cutter set that would duplicate what you are doing except possibly for the dimensions. I used it to make molding for some bookcases. The thing was so loud and wicked sounding that I quit using it and eventually sold the thing. I judged that the light weight contractor saw I had at the time just wasn't heavy duty enough for it.

[Jim Koepke]

I am not seeing the detail of these reeds in your pictures Jim. Can you get a closeup that would show the detail please?

This is about the best I have right now:

333391

The main point in all of this is there have been people doing most of these tasks for years by hand.

If one has enough money to purchase various machines and the tooling, then they can maybe also do some of the same things.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Pardon me for getting way off topic. Back in the late 1970's, I bought a Craftsman molding head that fit on a table saw. It came with a cutter set that would duplicate what you are doing except possibly for the dimensions. I used it to make molding for some bookcases. The thing was so loud and wicked sounding that I quit using it and eventually sold the thing. I judged that the light weight contractor saw I had at the time just wasn't heavy duty enough for it.

The sounds emanating from some power tools frightens me. I do not recall the sounds from my hand tools having a similar effect.

I prefer a quiet shop so music playing can be heard for my enjoyment.

Though the sound of my mallet hitting a mortise chisel always gets shop cat Turner to run outside.

jtk

[Chris Hachet]

The sounds emanating from some power tools frightens me. I do not recall the sounds from my hand tools having a similar effect.

I prefer a quiet shop so music playing can be heard for my enjoyment.

Though the sound of my mallet hitting a mortise chisel always gets shop cat Turner to run outside.

jtkMortice chisel is the loudest thing in my shop...I rarely run the table saw any more.

[steven c newman]

Loudest thing in MY shop? My cussing, of course.....

[Jeff Bartley]

That is a really nice mantle Warren! Do you remember how long it took you to make?
I really don't have anything to add that hasn't been said but for my own work I use both power and hand tools and I like both. But the most enjoyable projects always seem to have a lot of handwork involved.

[Warren Mickley]

That is a really nice mantle Warren! Do you remember how long it took you to make?


I think about two weeks. In addition to what you see there is a large amount of wood cut away on the back, so except for the part that sits on the masonry, it slants back to help channel the smoke. Although I did the shaping of the beam, a number of guys had a part in this project. You just don't order a 45 cubic ft. piece of timber and have UPS deliver. On a Friday afternoon I gave a list of five tools I lacked and all arrived Monday morning. Stuff like broad axe, 2 inch rabbet plane, wide hollow plane, etc from several tool collections. I also got measurements and a big packet of pictures of the beam in the museum.

Looking at the pictures I realize how keenly aware I was of the character of each moulding element. One big difference between hand work and machine work. With machine work you draw a profile and make a cutter and that is it. With hand work you are constantly judging as you make the moulding: Is this round enough? Does this have enough flair? Is this a charming curve? The emotional response. This trains the mind. And we can make very slight alterations to make it better.

When doing repetitive work by machine the results are static. But when doing repetitive work by hand, your mind remains active, even subconsciously, making slight improvements and noticing the response.

[george wilson]

Warren,your last sentence describes the thing that most people overlook,or do not have the eye to understand. These are the types who boldly state that CNC machines can do anything hand tools can. Lack of training,lack of education in art,lack of a good eye.

[Malcolm McLeod]

This discussion is very much like politics: Polarizing.

If I had to categorize myself, I am very much in the middle. I want to have the skill to execute something by hand, or by power tools - and the judgment to use the most suitable means. (Perhaps today its quiet Zen, and tomorrow its, "More power! GIT'R DONE!".) Hopefully, I can respect others who choose differently. And be respected by those people as well.

I am awed at some people's hand skill and their artistry. I am also awed by other forms of artistry as well - - even computer code or a CNC machined part. Perhaps others will see the beauty in that as well?
Couple of my favorites:
333454
5-axis CNC of impeller (with undercut!); turbine blade from a single metal crystal.

[Chris Hachet]

This discussion is very much like politics: Polarizing.

If I had to categorize myself, I am very much in the middle. I want to have the skill to execute something by hand, or by power tools - and the judgment to use the most suitable means. (Perhaps today its quiet Zen, and tomorrow its, "More power! GIT'R DONE!".) Hopefully, I can respect others who choose differently. And be respected by those people as well.

I am awed at some people's hand skill and their artistry. I am also awed by other forms of artistry as well - - even computer code or a CNC machined part. Perhaps others will see the beauty in that as well?
Couple of my favorites:
333454
5-axis CNC of impeller (with undercut!); turbine blade from a single metal crystal.

I appreciate what you are saying....I know both power tool wood workers and hand tool wood workers who are better wood workers than I am. I just try to keep learning. My real goal is to build some nice furniture for my family, and for my children as they are getting apartments and houses of their own. Functional, sturdy, and decent looking work for a lot in my world.

[george wilson]

There is room in this ever evolving World for both artistry and machining. I use both myself,sometimes combining the two as with the drill below. I love my hand tools and my lathes and milling machines. I also have been very impressed at what CNC machinery can accomplish in my visits to NASA.

The brass dividing attachment was made both with machines and hand work. The holes in the index plate were spaced by hand with simple dividers.

The steel die was cut by hand to coin the 22kt. gold heart and earrings.

[Chris Hachet]

There is room in this ever evolving World for both artistry and machining. I use both myself,sometimes combining the two as with the drill below. I love my hand tools and my lathes and milling machines. I also have been very impressed at what CNC machinery can accomplish in my visits to NASA.

The brass dividing attachment was made both with machines and hand work. The holes in the index plate were spaced by hand with simple dividers.

The steel die was cut by hand to coin the 22kt. gold heart and earrings.

Extremely impressive.....eye candy for a rainy Thursday. Thanks for posting this up.

[James Pallas]

I don't see any problem with hand or machine work. We do loose one important thing though. In the future someone may be able to say that the objects pictured were made by George Willson the other side of that is that the object was made by an xxx CNC machine. Those things seem to mean something to us. The real brush strokes of Leanardo mean something just as the real cuts on a guitar neck made by George or the real gouge cuts on an acanthus leaf by Mary May will mean something in the future or that history will be lost.
Jim

[george wilson]

I had my nose about 8" from"The Annunciation" by Leonardo at the Pitti Palace in Florence. There is an amazing amount of detail just in the hair he painted. Must have been done with a brush with 1 hair!

[Stew Hagerty]

Pardon me for getting way off topic. Back in the late 1970's, I bought a Craftsman molding head that fit on a table saw. It came with a cutter set that would duplicate what you are doing except possibly for the dimensions. I used it to make molding for some bookcases. The thing was so loud and wicked sounding that I quit using it and eventually sold the thing. I judged that the light weight contractor saw I had at the time just wasn't heavy duty enough for it.

I have one full set of these and several additional cutter sets. I don't often use them, but I do occasionally find a situation where they make sense. For instance, I was running 40 odd feet of moldings I bought boards wide enough for two and ran each through with one edge against the fence, then again with the other against it. If you hone the edges of the cutters using a diamond stick before you start, it actually does a really good job. Now, I would never try to cut anything cross grain with it, but with the grain it's pretty much on par with a router.